What about a story and easy mode for the Raids?

[WorldofBay.8160]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> This is an mmorpg, having some group content is usually desirable by default.

 

that's actually a contradiction. raids are not mmorpg, neither are fractals or dungeons. mmorpg is only the open world stuff. mmorpg. the first m, what does it stand for? group? co-op? no it stands for massive. 10 is certainly not massive.

 

mmorpg != group play. the group play is a co-op gameplay addition to most mmorpgs to differentiate difficulties less frustrating. a hard map would be a lot more frustrating than a hard instance as the instance isn't always in your face as uncompleted content. so no, group play is not a part of mmorpg. playing together is a part of it but that is different to premade groups, it rather means that a mmorpg should be designed in a way that certain points (or even the whole game) make it desirable that (random) people come together and do stuff together without any fixed time or space boundary. a reason why HoT metas have changed for example, they were highly time-gated (you needed to stay until the whole meta finished for your reward on the first event), a bad thing in mmorpg gameplay.

 

in some games you need ranged players to pull mobs for the melee dd. in some games you need healers/boon applicants to make fast levelling possible. in some games you have rewarding chokepoints that attract people to come together, this game is such a game. in some games you have interclass synergies that make it desirable to group up in any case. in some games you earn a lot more exp when fighting in a group. etc etc. but at the same point all of these games are soloable or else they aren't mmorpg.

 

usually they all have separated parts (instances) that aren't designed to be soloable but co-op like raids and dungeons for difficulty only. however, many of those modes have been soloed in many games anyways. and they actually counter the idea of a mmorpg that is to bring randoms together to have fun without knowing each other.

 

i'm in full support of a (rewardless) soloable story mode. it's fully ok if soloing it is extremely hard but little groups can do it. 2 or 3 friends. actual realistic amounts of real-life friends that play the same game at the same time.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"WorldofBay.8160" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > This is an mmorpg, having some group content is usually desirable by default.

>

> that's actually a contradiction. raids are not mmorpg, neither are fractals or dungeons. mmorpg is only the open world stuff. mmorpg. the first m, what does it stand for? group? co-op? no it stands for massive. 10 is certainly not massive.

>

> mmorpg != group play. the group play is a co-op gameplay addition to most mmorpgs to differentiate difficulties less frustrating.

 

Believe it or not, I don't really need an explanation for what "mmorpg" means. Pretty sure mmorpg/co-op/group content terms aren't automatically mutually exclusive. I think I might understand what you're talking about, where just a "mass lobby with actual gameplay happening inside an instanced zone with limited player numbers" doesn't really match the mmo naming, but this game is more than just that and the sole existance of instanced content doesn't automatically make it "not mmorpg" or something that can't/shouldn't be included in the game.

 

>group play is not a part of mmorpg.

 

Of course it is, if the group play isn't part of mmorpg then why would you even need those people playing with you?

I don't know if I don't understand what exactly you're talking about here, but at this point with my understanding, it's a weird think to say that "group play is not a part of mmorpg", I can't really agree.

 

>playing together is a part of it

 

....wait, so now it IS part of it? (yes, I agree, it definitely is part of it, which is why I disagreed with what you've said above -but might be just some miscommunication)

 

>but that is different to premade groups, it rather means that a mmorpg should be designed in a way that certain points (or even the whole game) make it desirable that (random) people come together and do stuff together without any fixed time or space boundary. a reason why HoT metas have changed for example, they were highly time-gated (you needed to stay until the whole meta finished for your reward on the first event), a bad thing in mmorpg gameplay.

 

Who's talking about"premade groups" (as in some kind of "constant parties", right?)?

Raiding and any other instanced group content can still be participated by random players. In fact, I was farming raids almost exclusively in random squads. Not sure what this part is about.

Are you saying that in early L2 people that used map chat in cities to form parties and then went out to farm weren't considered random or even "mmo players", because they formed smaller groups and avoided the rest of the players to farm up what they wanted?

And probably a more fitting question, are you saying that when the new open world instance is being created and there's ~5-15 people in it, those players aren't playing an mmorpg until more people join them?

 

I think you're trying a bit too hard to decide what constitutes of being an "mmorpg". Even moreso when we're in the thread that wants soloable instances, which goes even deeper in avoiding any human interaction.

 

> in some games you need ranged players to pull mobs for the melee dd. in some games you need healers/boon applicants to make fast levelling possible. in some games you have rewarding chokepoints that attract people to come together, this game is such a game. in some games you have interclass synergies that make it desirable to group up in any case. in some games you earn a lot more exp when fighting in a group. etc etc.

 

I don't see what anything you wrote here is relevant to anything I wrote, can you explain?

 

>but at the same point all of these games are soloable or else they aren't mmorpg.

 

Wait, so now... "if the content isn't soloable, it's not mmorpg"? That's just... plain wrong. Seriously, how did you even come up with this statement?

 

> usually they all have separated parts (instances) that aren't designed to be soloable but co-op like raids and dungeons for difficulty only. however, many of those modes have been soloed in many games anyways. and they actually counter the idea of a mmorpg that is to bring randoms together to have fun without knowing each other.

 

Many of them have been, many of them haven't been. I don't see how it changes anything I've said or anything about what gw2 is and, again, I'm all ears if you can explain.

I feel the need to repeat: I've been farming raids in almost exclusively random squads. I don't see what your point here is.

That people can form parties/squads while knowing each other and it's not mmorpg anymore because they're not "randoms"?

Or that "*random* people forming squads/parties before rushing blindly into x content suddenly makes those people *not random*"?

I'm seriously lost about this argument.

 

> i'm in full support of a (rewardless) soloable story mode. it's fully ok if soloing it is extremely hard but little groups can do it. 2 or 3 friends. actual realistic amounts of real-life friends that play the same game at the same time.

 

Fairly sure little groups can already do it. But also -while I'm not opposed having soloable rewardless instances- I have to ask: what's the point? Is it really about the story and seeing the textures inside the instance without learning anything the content requires? Then why not just watch it on youtube and get over it instead of pretending it would be worth anything having it in the game as if it magically -according to OP- makes for "more content"?

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"blp.3489" said:

> > > I've never done raids but I think if there were an easy/tutorial/rehearsal mode that allowed you to learn the mechanics before trying to do the normal mode that would make it easier for people to start doing raids and therefore perhaps increase the number of people doing raids, making everyone happier. This easy mode doesn't necessarily need to have significant loot if its just a way to ease people into doing raids. If it is meant to be an alternative to normal difficulty raids it gets more complicated.

> >

> > Many guilds including mine does raid trainings which will fill the that you are asking.

>

> See... There was the time that I've thought just like you: that people complaining about "hard content" just can't "solve it" and need help. But there were already threads **even about (pof) story bosses** where multiple people linked videos with a few different tactics and easly defeating the boss on undergeared characters (because some people complained they need to farm top/optimal gear for that), but most of the answers boiled down to "**I don't want you to help me, I want it to be easier**".

> And -I think- this is the main problem here: they don't want to be better, they don't want to learn the game. They want the game to play itself and give them rewards. That's just insane to me.

>

> Obviously, it doesn't mean everyone is like this and plenty of players probably just need some help getting into the content, but judging by absolute lack of answers or even "thumb ups" I assume this thread doesn't exactly consist of those people.

 

I dont think this is quite it. If they wanted the game to be easier they would simply follow the brain dead tactics I showcase for an easy victory. Most of the game does not require a high level of execution. Its almost always a knowledge check in the form of good builds and preparation. They want to be deluded into thinking they are clever because they "solved" the encounter themselves so what they want are simple encounters that don't expose their lack of knowledge.

[sorudo.9054]

a story mode with one raid specific reward might be nice, they could make this a ones per account per raid thing so you can experience the raid in a save environment, get a reward out of it but still needs to raid the hard mode part to get the rest.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > See... There was the time that I've thought just like you: that people complaining about "hard content" just can't "solve it" and need help. But there were already threads **even about (pof) story bosses** where multiple people linked videos with a few different tactics and easly defeating the boss on undergeared characters (because some people complained they need to farm top/optimal gear for that), but most of the answers boiled down to "**I don't want you to help me, I want it to be easier**".

> > And -I think- this is the main problem here: they don't want to be better, they don't want to learn the game. They want the game to play itself and give them rewards. That's just insane to me.

> >

> > Obviously, it doesn't mean everyone is like this and plenty of players probably just need some help getting into the content, but judging by absolute lack of answers or even "thumb ups" I assume this thread doesn't exactly consist of those people.

>

> I dont think this is quite it. If they wanted the game to be easier they would simply follow the brain dead tactics I showcase for an easy victory. Most of the game does not require a high level of execution. Its almost always a knowledge check in the form of good builds and preparation. They want to be deluded into thinking they are clever because they "solved" the encounter themselves so what they want are simple encounters that don't expose their lack of knowledge.

The same is actually true about so called _hardcore_ players as well. MMORPG games have a looong tradition of giving players an _illusion_ of difficulty. I mean, the whole holy trinity concept is exactly this - persuading the players that they are so clever, while preventing them from noticing that in order for their tactics to work boss ai needs to be dumbed down to that tactics level first.

 

All that is different is the difficulty at which the bar is set, but the general concept is all the same.

 

Besides, a lot of players doesn't care about getting challenged. They want to have _fun_, and (surprise surprise) a lot of them don't associate fun with the same things that you do. Shocking, i know.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > See... There was the time that I've thought just like you: that people complaining about "hard content" just can't "solve it" and need help. But there were already threads **even about (pof) story bosses** where multiple people linked videos with a few different tactics and easly defeating the boss on undergeared characters (because some people complained they need to farm top/optimal gear for that), but most of the answers boiled down to "**I don't want you to help me, I want it to be easier**".

> > > And -I think- this is the main problem here: they don't want to be better, they don't want to learn the game. They want the game to play itself and give them rewards. That's just insane to me.

> > >

> > > Obviously, it doesn't mean everyone is like this and plenty of players probably just need some help getting into the content, but judging by absolute lack of answers or even "thumb ups" I assume this thread doesn't exactly consist of those people.

> >

> > I dont think this is quite it. If they wanted the game to be easier they would simply follow the brain dead tactics I showcase for an easy victory. Most of the game does not require a high level of execution. Its almost always a knowledge check in the form of good builds and preparation. They want to be deluded into thinking they are clever because they "solved" the encounter themselves so what they want are simple encounters that don't expose their lack of knowledge.

> The same is actually true about so called _hardcore_ players as well. MMORPG games have a looong tradition of giving players an _illusion_ of difficulty. I mean, the whole holy trinity concept is exactly this - persuading the players that they are so clever, while preventing them from noticing that in order for their tactics to work boss ai needs to be dumbed down to that tactics level first.

 

That's a pretty weird claim to make, just because people use available tactics in a game that are obviously balanced around its content (or the other way around, w/e) doesn't mean they pretend they're smarter than they are and aren't aware of the limitations or the game design itself. I'm not sure what you're basing your claim on tbh. A lot of the players are perfectly fine with copying the efficient tactics someone else comes up with first while still think about themselves as "so called hardcore players".

 

While I can agree with Shikaru (because it's based on actual messages wrote by actual players on this forum), I seriously don't know where your claim comes from. For now it seems absolutely wrong and baseless for vast majority of cases.

[Ashen.2907]

Your poll options are awful. If you want to make a statement, do so. Don't try to hide your bias behind a BS poll.

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"WindBlade.8749" said:

> > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > > > @"CashCow.9548" said:

> > > > > I want raid rewards with out ever raiding.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please, Anet. I am so casual and not really interested in playing your game but pleaase give me the rewards anyways, I insist.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, imagine the horror if every player could go through something that was designed for solo and scaled for groups so everyone could participate in the content. I can imagine it now... Wait, i can't see any downside to this. Except then people couldn't boast about clearing the "difficult" thing, again.

> > >

> > > Group content needs people to participate in an actual group. Opening some kind of "solo modes" for group content pretty much kills group content, because usually it will be easier and faster (and preeeeeetty sure that's what people vouching for it also want). This is an mmorpg, having some group content is usually desirable by default.

> > > Here, "found" a downside for you.

> > >

> > >

> > > If you want rewards for completing the content, then you need to learn and complete the content. If you don't want to complete the content -for literally any relevant or irrelevant reason you're capable of comming up with- then you'll get no rewards for that content. I don't see anything bad about that tbh.

> > >

> > >

> > > > Still wonder why people are so obsessed with rewards when there is no gear treadmill. Let me guess: they stuff sells really well for a lot of gold?

> > >

> > > I'll need you to explain how is this supposed to be some kind of great catch. Are you upset that people are able to learn/play through content and use (or sell) their drops as they see fit or what is this sentence about?

> >

> > You know, i know it's true and i will have to say this: If people play group content only because it's enforced, that just proves that nobody actually WANTS to group up with random mooks, which is obvious. If they could without any extra benefit, then people could play with their friends and/or solo when they feel like it, because there is no requirement for it. If they want to suffer through other people and their requirements and all that rot, then that is also their own choice and they can live with the consequences. Only downside is game developers obsessions and lack of thinking outside the hunderd times recycled old box.

> >

> > Since when is it a good idea to force the developers preferred playstyle down the players throat? Because the other games did it first? Yeah, great reasoning that.

> > If there wasn't any story in the raids then i couldn't care less, but since there is, why is it shoved into that steaming pile of garbage? Because someone else did it, and that means anet and the rest just recycled the same old kitten, as per the usual. The same old, same old...

> >

> > Your question seems pointless, as the answer is pretty self-explanatory. You don't want the stuff to be widely available, because that would cut into your profit and/or you flaunting it around would ring rather hollow as it's more widely available. Really, i don't care about your precious stuff, you can keep it all. Can't speak for others though.

>

> Yea, except that just the gamestyle you prefer, a lot of people do raids because it's hard and engaging in a group content. It's not the raider fault if other people don't want to do "hard" group content together and so have less supply, raids profits is already a joke anyway, you will get way more gold in openworld so your argument is already felling.

>

> If people love raids, it's because it's engaging, you can't be brainless except if you really know the fight by hearth and have a perfect team, which is rarely the case, even in roster or raid guild.

>

> Raider don't play the raid in group because it's forced, it's because it's in group and is not braindead that they play the thing.

> And why a gamemode can't have something to him like lore or story to it just because you don't like it, it's pure entitilement, i don't play wvw or spvp, but i will not care if they get exclusive rewards, it's not like i can't go play them to get them, i could get to it and get it. Plus side note, most of lore behind raids are not even related to the main plot but more gw1 or backstory.

>

> Openworld players have like +30 legendary gear they can get, but god, when they can't get one armor and one ring it's heresy. Even if it's usless for casual player to switch stats opposed to wvw/HL content where it's usful to switch stats often.

>

> Sure a story mode will be nice, but like everyone said it here, there should be no raid reward in it, maybe some skins unique to it. But it's a story mode anyway, it's should only be here for the story or to train.

 

Yea, except if most raiders would admit what they actually do, and some of them actually have but that thread got deleted, we all find out how they do everything in their power, and use every exploit to skip as much of the "difficulty" as possible. There is nothing more brainded than doing the same exact thing over and over and over, which is the only thing raids have in them. Know the dance? THEN DANCE! But even that is too much time "wasted", so just skip everything you possibly can to get to the precious rewards, the only thing people covet over everything else. Even fun is less important than stuff.

 

Also, if they make a solo version of raids, why would that mean it requires less effort to complete it? Sure they would have to actually put some effort and imagination into it, which is more than can be said of the same old recycled raids anet simply copied from other games.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"blp.3489" said:

> I would like a ghost mode where you can follow a group through the raid but can't affect anything or interfere in any way. In contrast to a video of a raid you can move around to view things as you like. Or you could call it cameraman mode so you could capture things from the best vantage points and make a cool video. Consent of the party would be required of course.

 

Basicly spectator mode this i can get behind as it could help players learn aswell give story

[Silvia.9130]

This is actually something that could intrigue me enough to give a try to raids, unlike strike missions.

[WindBlade.8749]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > @"WindBlade.8749" said:

> > > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > > > > @"CashCow.9548" said:

> > > > > > I want raid rewards with out ever raiding.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please, Anet. I am so casual and not really interested in playing your game but pleaase give me the rewards anyways, I insist.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, imagine the horror if every player could go through something that was designed for solo and scaled for groups so everyone could participate in the content. I can imagine it now... Wait, i can't see any downside to this. Except then people couldn't boast about clearing the "difficult" thing, again.

> > > >

> > > > Group content needs people to participate in an actual group. Opening some kind of "solo modes" for group content pretty much kills group content, because usually it will be easier and faster (and preeeeeetty sure that's what people vouching for it also want). This is an mmorpg, having some group content is usually desirable by default.

> > > > Here, "found" a downside for you.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > If you want rewards for completing the content, then you need to learn and complete the content. If you don't want to complete the content -for literally any relevant or irrelevant reason you're capable of comming up with- then you'll get no rewards for that content. I don't see anything bad about that tbh.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Still wonder why people are so obsessed with rewards when there is no gear treadmill. Let me guess: they stuff sells really well for a lot of gold?

> > > >

> > > > I'll need you to explain how is this supposed to be some kind of great catch. Are you upset that people are able to learn/play through content and use (or sell) their drops as they see fit or what is this sentence about?

> > >

> > > You know, i know it's true and i will have to say this: If people play group content only because it's enforced, that just proves that nobody actually WANTS to group up with random mooks, which is obvious. If they could without any extra benefit, then people could play with their friends and/or solo when they feel like it, because there is no requirement for it. If they want to suffer through other people and their requirements and all that rot, then that is also their own choice and they can live with the consequences. Only downside is game developers obsessions and lack of thinking outside the hunderd times recycled old box.

> > >

> > > Since when is it a good idea to force the developers preferred playstyle down the players throat? Because the other games did it first? Yeah, great reasoning that.

> > > If there wasn't any story in the raids then i couldn't care less, but since there is, why is it shoved into that steaming pile of garbage? Because someone else did it, and that means anet and the rest just recycled the same old kitten, as per the usual. The same old, same old...

> > >

> > > Your question seems pointless, as the answer is pretty self-explanatory. You don't want the stuff to be widely available, because that would cut into your profit and/or you flaunting it around would ring rather hollow as it's more widely available. Really, i don't care about your precious stuff, you can keep it all. Can't speak for others though.

> >

> > Yea, except that just the gamestyle you prefer, a lot of people do raids because it's hard and engaging in a group content. It's not the raider fault if other people don't want to do "hard" group content together and so have less supply, raids profits is already a joke anyway, you will get way more gold in openworld so your argument is already felling.

> >

> > If people love raids, it's because it's engaging, you can't be brainless except if you really know the fight by hearth and have a perfect team, which is rarely the case, even in roster or raid guild.

> >

> > Raider don't play the raid in group because it's forced, it's because it's in group and is not braindead that they play the thing.

> > And why a gamemode can't have something to him like lore or story to it just because you don't like it, it's pure entitilement, i don't play wvw or spvp, but i will not care if they get exclusive rewards, it's not like i can't go play them to get them, i could get to it and get it. Plus side note, most of lore behind raids are not even related to the main plot but more gw1 or backstory.

> >

> > Openworld players have like +30 legendary gear they can get, but god, when they can't get one armor and one ring it's heresy. Even if it's usless for casual player to switch stats opposed to wvw/HL content where it's usful to switch stats often.

> >

> > Sure a story mode will be nice, but like everyone said it here, there should be no raid reward in it, maybe some skins unique to it. But it's a story mode anyway, it's should only be here for the story or to train.

>

> Yea, except if most raiders would admit what they actually do, and some of them actually have but that thread got deleted, we all find out how they do everything in their power, and use every exploit to skip as much of the "difficulty" as possible. There is nothing more brainded than doing the same exact thing over and over and over, which is the only thing raids have in them. Know the dance? THEN DANCE! But even that is too much time "wasted", so just skip everything you possibly can to get to the precious rewards, the only thing people covet over everything else. Even fun is less important than stuff.

>

> Also, if they make a solo version of raids, why would that mean it requires less effort to complete it? Sure they would have to actually put some effort and imagination into it, which is more than can be said of the same old recycled raids anet simply copied from other games.

 

you will never have the same version of the raids, and skipping things on raids happend, but most of the time it's make the raids harder,

And raids are probably the content that repeat the less itself, sorry but except raids and fractals cm, anything else in pve is excatly the same, there is no event that players still enjoy after doing them for years every day/weeks, the only content that are more unique after each run than raids and fractals cm are spvp and wvw where you fight againsts humans.

 

And you just can't doing solo versions of raids without reworking the entire fight of bosses honestly, so much mechanics are team related, you better of creating new boss than trying to patch boss in a new game design that was never made to be that way.

[WorldofBay.8160]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Who's talking about"premade groups" (as in some kind of "constant parties", right?)?

> Raiding and any other instanced group content can still be participated by random players. In fact, I was farming raids almost exclusively in random squads. Not sure what this part is about.

> Are you saying that in early L2 people that used map chat in cities to form parties and then went out to farm weren't considered random or even "mmo players", because they formed smaller groups and avoided the rest of the players to farm up what they wanted?

> And probably a more fitting question, are you saying that when the new open world instance is being created and there's ~5-15 people in it, those players aren't playing an mmorpg until more people join them?

 

i guess i did not really make my points clear and what they contribute to the topic.

first of all i'm certainly not against the existence, difficulty and instanciation of raids, those are good things.

however, i want any part of the lore to be available solo or at least in a realistic real-life group size which is 2 or 3. nothing about rewards, that doesn't need any rewards. fractals T1 are possible that way, so you can explore their story live ingame without organized groups or dedication to the gameplay. dungeons have a story mode and the exploration paths don't really contain anything important story-wise, so dungeons also apply to it. both of these have negligible rewards for the time spent if done for lore. raids currently have no such way, i would love if they did.

 

my point about the mmorpg is that an mmorpg is a fluid game, raids/fraktals/dungeons are different to open world groups because people can't just join and leave at any given point. elite modes are good. they can gate skins, rare items, whatever, all good. they are not mmorpg though and therefore my point is that they should not gate a part of the mmorpg lore. one could say that a NPC telling us everything happening could be enough but ... i just look at LS1 recap and see that ANet can't do that. also it would be cool to explore those maps (in a meaningful way) as they aren't small and unlike dungeons/fracs actually take up visible slots in our map that want to be seen.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"WorldofBay.8160" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > Who's talking about"premade groups" (as in some kind of "constant parties", right?)?

> > Raiding and any other instanced group content can still be participated by random players. In fact, I was farming raids almost exclusively in random squads. Not sure what this part is about.

> > Are you saying that in early L2 people that used map chat in cities to form parties and then went out to farm weren't considered random or even "mmo players", because they formed smaller groups and avoided the rest of the players to farm up what they wanted?

> > And probably a more fitting question, are you saying that when the new open world instance is being created and there's ~5-15 people in it, those players aren't playing an mmorpg until more people join them?

>

> i guess i did not really make my points clear and what they contribute to the topic.

> first of all i'm certainly not against the existence, difficulty and instanciation of raids, those are good things.

> however, i want any part of the lore to be available solo or at least in a realistic real-life group size which is 2 or 3. nothing about rewards, that doesn't need any rewards. fractals T1 are possible that way, so you can explore their story live ingame without organized groups or dedication to the gameplay. dungeons have a story mode and the exploration paths don't really contain anything important story-wise, so dungeons also apply to it. both of these have negligible rewards for the time spent if done for lore. raids currently have no such way, i would love if they did.

>

> my point about the mmorpg is that an mmorpg is a fluid game, raids/fraktals/dungeons are different to open world groups because people can't just join and leave at any given point. elite modes are good. they can gate skins, rare items, whatever, all good. they are not mmorpg though and therefore my point is that they should not gate a part of the mmorpg lore. one could say that a NPC telling us everything happening could be enough but ... i just look at LS1 recap and see that ANet can't do that. also it would be cool to explore those maps (in a meaningful way) as they aren't small and unlike dungeons/fracs actually take up visible slots in our map that want to be seen.

 

Ah, so most of the things you wrote in your previous post were pretty much irrelevant from what I understand.

 

Nobody is "gating" anything. You're playing an mmo and putting subjective opinions about what number makes it "mmo" or what number is "considered realistic irl" (because that IS your subjective opinion about this and ABSOLUTELY isn't just correct for everyone because you think it is correct for you) aside, your complaint about it is that you should be able to play through any **side**story content with whatever number of people you want? When you pick a team-based shooter with teams of 5, are you complaining to the devs about the game being terribly designed because you should be able to just play 2v2s and 3v3s with your irl friends? Honestly, that's a silly complaint to make.

 

If you are interested in side story without wanting to play through it for whatever reason it is ("too hard", "not my type of content", "I have 8 friends instead of 9", "I want it soloable", "I don't want to learn the mechanics", "I don't care about story/rewards", "I want it to be an fps, but it's an mmorpg"), then go watch it on youtube and you'll have your story without rewards. If you WANT TO PLAY through the content yourself, then LEARN about the content, PRACTICE what you need to practice and COMPLETE the content. It's the same in almost every other game regardless of the genre. What exactly about that is unreasonable or out of place for you?

 

 

And btw your (and yggranya's) complaint about "story availability" seems to be saying "guys, you're allowed to enjoy the content I don't enjoy, but if I don't enjoy the content... YOU DON'T DESERVE TO HAVE A SIDE STORY IN IT". That's just... oof.

I'll repeat again: if the story that plays itself is all you want then go watch it on youtube and move on to the content you enjoy playing.

[Sigmoid.7082]

I would love to see them add a story / easy mode if only to see the following complaints about how "it's not rewarding enough" and "there's no reason to play it more than once" coupled with complaints still about how the harder more rewarding content, that often contains the things people want, is still too hard.

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> I'll repeat again: if the story that plays itself is all you want then go watch it on youtube and move on to the content you enjoy playing.

 

So, precisely what people did. People moving on to play the content they enjoy playing, leaving raids behind with a low population.

According to Andrew Gray, the low population makes it tricky to create more content for raids.

Voilà, you get the current situation with no raids in sight and Strike Missions trying to save them.

Self fulfilling prophecy.

 

I'll just continue enjoying my MMORPG with massive amounts of players in the open world and WvW, instead of non-massive lobby-based instances ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > I'll repeat again: if the story that plays itself is all you want then go watch it on youtube and move on to the content you enjoy playing.

>

> So, precisely what people did. People moving on to play the content they enjoy playing, leaving raids behind with a low population.

> According to Andrew Gray, the low population makes it tricky to create more content for raids.

> Voilà, you get the current situation with no raids in sight and Strike Missions trying to save them.

> Self fulfilling prophecy.

>

> I'll just continue enjoying my MMORPG with massive amounts of players in the open world and WvW, instead of non-massive lobby-based instances ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

 

...so what's the problem here or how does it change anything I wrote above? :D

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > I'll repeat again: if the story that plays itself is all you want then go watch it on youtube and move on to the content you enjoy playing.

> >

> > So, precisely what people did. People moving on to play the content they enjoy playing, leaving raids behind with a low population.

> > According to Andrew Gray, the low population makes it tricky to create more content for raids.

> > Voilà, you get the current situation with no raids in sight and Strike Missions trying to save them.

> > Self fulfilling prophecy.

> >

> > I'll just continue enjoying my MMORPG with massive amounts of players in the open world and WvW, instead of non-massive lobby-based instances ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

>

> ...so what's the problem here or how does it change anything I wrote above? :D

 

Apart that your reference to team based shooters with teams of 5 is nonsense, it doesn't change anything. No problem here.

 

Just wanted to point out that not changing anything about raids will also not save them, it will just leave them in the situation dungeons are, with little to no development time allocated to them.

 

I'm actually in agreement that people should play what they think is fun.

Just don't expect Anet to create new content for you when the content you find fun is pretty niche, if you are against opening up that niche to more players. That would just be entitlement.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > I'll repeat again: if the story that plays itself is all you want then go watch it on youtube and move on to the content you enjoy playing.

> > >

> > > So, precisely what people did. People moving on to play the content they enjoy playing, leaving raids behind with a low population.

> > > According to Andrew Gray, the low population makes it tricky to create more content for raids.

> > > Voilà, you get the current situation with no raids in sight and Strike Missions trying to save them.

> > > Self fulfilling prophecy.

> > >

> > > I'll just continue enjoying my MMORPG with massive amounts of players in the open world and WvW, instead of non-massive lobby-based instances ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

> > ...so what's the problem here or how does it change anything I wrote above? :D

>

>it doesn't change anything. No problem here.

 

Cool, thanks for answering then ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

> Just don't expect Anet to create new content for you when the content you find fun is pretty niche, if you are against opening up that niche to more players. That would just be entitlement.

 

Putting aside that "gotcha" moment you've apparently tried having here, I don't know what you're responding to, but I'm pretty sure it's nothing I wrote, soo... hm?

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > I'll repeat again: if the story that plays itself is all you want then go watch it on youtube and move on to the content you enjoy playing.

> > > >

> > > > So, precisely what people did. People moving on to play the content they enjoy playing, leaving raids behind with a low population.

> > > > According to Andrew Gray, the low population makes it tricky to create more content for raids.

> > > > Voilà, you get the current situation with no raids in sight and Strike Missions trying to save them.

> > > > Self fulfilling prophecy.

> > > >

> > > > I'll just continue enjoying my MMORPG with massive amounts of players in the open world and WvW, instead of non-massive lobby-based instances ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > >

> > > ...so what's the problem here or how does it change anything I wrote above? :D

> >

> >it doesn't change anything. No problem here.

>

> Cool, thanks for answering then ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

>

>

> > Just don't expect Anet to create new content for you when the content you find fun is pretty niche, if you are against opening up that niche to more players. That would just be entitlement.

>

> Putting aside that "gotcha" moment you've apparently tried having here, I don't know what you're responding to, but I'm pretty sure it's nothing I wrote, soo... hm?

 

No "gotcha" moment here.

I was merely elaborating on what "playing the content one enjoys" could mean for the future of the game content, in relation to population size of different content types if we make the assumption that nothing about the content types changes (as in, no notable changes to a specific game mode that could increase population size, so a stagnant or even decreasing playerbase).

Anet will then take the corresponding action for the game modes in terms of allocation of personnel. If someone then disagree's with Anets' decision, while actively being against any notable changes to his gamemode that could increase the playerbase, they've got no one to blame but themselves (but of course they are going to blame Anet ;)).

 

Like I've stated earlier, I'm in agreement that everyone should just play the content he enjoys, I'm not trying to debate you on this, just sharing my opinion ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Dantert.1803" said:

> About raids, we know from an anet post that it's hard for them to add content since the population is scarce, so, why not adding a story mode where the content is a little easier, and a normal and hard mode(this would be the currrent one).

Where is option 3?

"I have no idea what Aspirational Content is so I decided to make a poll about it"

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Main reason raids have a low player count is due to most players dont like difficult or advanced content they play to relax and fun not to mash keyboard specific ways to make numbers. Raids were never made to appeal to many for they are sadly failed content. Its more of a qol function to keep the few ppl who like difficulty or challenging conteny playing. I am all for a spectator mode for raids as it could help more directly to learn mechanics

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"WindBlade.8749" said:

> you will never have the same version of the raids, and skipping things on raids happend, but most of the time it's make the raids harder,

...which mechanic skips make the raid encounter harder? Because the most common ones i can think of actually make things way easier.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"WindBlade.8749" said:

> > you will never have the same version of the raids, and skipping things on raids happend, but most of the time it's make the raids harder,

> ...which mechanic skips make the raid encounter harder? Because the most common ones i can think of actually make things way easier.

>

 

It makes them harder from a point of requiring a better execution of a classes rotation and roles performance, yielding a benefit that the encounter becomes easier mechanic wise often or shorter.

 

In some cases this goes so far that it requires a completely different approach, say portals combined with skipping the stability pillar on Quadim 1 to get back faster to middle allowing for a high damage phase potentially making him phase before he gets his cc bar. The fight becomes shorter, the amount of mechanics one has to deal with become less but the actual setup and class mastery required is higher.

 

Or bringing portal to Twins, trading a large part of the fight becoming easier for a drastic increase in difficulty on the last part.

 

It is not universally true that fights become easier, at least not without additional commitment and player performance. How one scales this against each other, players skill and execution versus boss mechanics obviously defines how one views the effect.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"WindBlade.8749" said:

> > you will never have the same version of the raids, and skipping things on raids happend, but most of the time it's make the raids harder,

> ...which mechanic skips make the raid encounter harder? Because the most common ones i can think of actually make things way easier.

>

 

For something as simple as the Gorseval skips, the group must reach a certain dps threshold, which can be easy or hard depending on group experience and performance. Once a group can execute a skip perfectly (or at least adequately) then the skips do make the raid encounters easier, but to perform them well usually requires more of the group than doing the content "properly".

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Cyninja.2954", @"maddoctor.2738"

Fair enough. I was mostly thinking in the way of no-green VG and no-updraft Gorse, where cheesing the mechanic is generally easier than actually doing it properly (at least from my experience from time when we were learning those fights)