AliamRationem.5172 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, wildstar, EVE, BDO, LOTRO, RIFT, AION, warframe, TERA, and the list goes on and on > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout I'm not clear on how exactly that's a response to what I said, but if you're telling me that a player with your extensive background in MMOs should be able to decipher the mechanics and design a working build in a free-form system, I'd say that depends a lot on what sort of player you are. For instance, I have a friend who has played MMOs for 20 years but has never been particularly into mechanics and combat. She absolutely hated HoT, but when I gave her a build she could survive with she went right back to enjoying the game the way she always has. She doesn't care about being the best. She just wants to be able to play it and doesn't feel she should have to study up and practice to do it. There are builds for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, wildstar, EVE, BDO, LOTRO, RIFT, AION, warframe, TERA, and the list goes on and on > > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout > > I'm not clear on how exactly that's a response to what I said, but if you're telling me that a player with your extensive background in MMOs should be able to decipher the mechanics and design a working build in a free-form system, I'd say that depends a lot on what sort of player you are. For instance, I have a friend who has played MMOs for 20 years but has never been particularly into mechanics and combat. She absolutely hated HoT, but when I gave her a build she could survive with she went right back to enjoying the game the way she always has. She doesn't care about being the best. She just wants to be able to play it and doesn't feel she should have to study up and practice to do it. There are builds for that! i tried one of those builds on my DD, and i still got slaughtered. do i want to learn how to play a new class under the worst possible conditions? nope do i want to spend hours of reading and grinding, just to continue to play this "casual" game? no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algreg.3629 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, wildstar, EVE, BDO, LOTRO, RIFT, AION, warframe, TERA, and the list goes on and on > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout and, have you been good in any of those? God, even EVE, man, I would love to see how you fared there, especially in that particular forum environment (for people unfamiliar with EVE: In their forums, actual admins tell you basically to kitten off when you whine about difficulty) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > @"Pockethole.5031" said: > > > > @"Tiilimon.6094" said: > > > > You can opt out of combat in OW by playing stealth builds very easily, capped concentration should let you mine a couple nodes as a thief or scrapper and should even give you time to mount up before stealth fades. > > > > > > > > As combat is the only reason why we even put clothes on our characters in this game, I find it very strange that getting into brawls is perceived as a problem anyways, isn't that kinda the point of the game? > > > > > > > > Are you sure that a combat focused MMO is what you actually even want to play if you find it boring? > > > > > > > > I've met a lot of people in Elite Dangerous who actually wish to play Universe Sandbox but for some reason buy a game where all the space ships come equipped with weaponry when bought, then complain when anything or anyone attacks their ship. This reminds me a bit of that. > > > > > > > > > > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > > > > @"Pockethole.5031" said: > > > > > > @"SunTzu.4513" said: > > > > > >For me personaly would be a down tuning of HP or DPS deald by the mobs result in maybe quitting the game. > > > > > > > > > > And of course, I'm the opposite. I effortlessly hopped to WoW after experiencing PoF (and of course because new expansion launched). I still play but not as much. If open world mobs were to be made harder like many repliers seem to dream of (which means 1/2 playerbase dying most of the time to the mob, not just downing, outright dying), I wouldn't be able to enjoy open world anymore. Don't you get tired of whacking mobs all the time? Might as well put a target dummy or combat simulation that gives loot after it dies in middle of LA. **Don't you get enough combat satisfaction in fractals or raids?** I just don't get you people. To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI? Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways. Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but this statement really makes me wonder. Do you think this here is the right genre for you? There are loads of enjoyable games that center around exploration and similar concepts without any combat. Maybe you should play those instead of a fantasy MMORPG with a focus on conflict? > > > > > > Yes, probably. But it's not that simple for me. I don't play the MMORPG genre for the sake of combat... and **I'm going to be a hypocrite and say I don't entirely despise combat.** After one-shotting mobs for a while in old content WoW, yeah, I want to go back to current content and face some difficulty. Same I could do in GW2, crawl back to core Tyria (and I actually did, started a new character). > > > Let's go back a few years. Like 15 or so. My first MMORPG was RuneScape(2). The repetitive grinding was of course boring but chatting with other people made it tolerable. Quests were fun and still are. But my peanut brain couldn't crack some puzzles so I often ended up following a quest guide. I found a friend who introduced me to Maplestory. That game is a grindfest. However at that time leveling was mostly dependant on party quests, doing a mission with other people. It got me hooked anyway and I wasted time and money on it. Surprisingly the fun part for me of the game became the combos that I do when I grind mobs. Yes. However if I were to play it again (and I kitten hope not) I would watch My Little Pony from Netflix because grinding is very repetitive. > > > On the internet I eventually came across WoW memes. The first image consisted of a person with acne and something negative about the person playing it. Not a great introduction to the game but I enjoyed it. I had fun chatting with other people in guild... just not always. I still remember I heard from another member the guild master said I'm annoying. > > > Anyway again I heard from internet friend about this new game that is GW2. When it came out I bought a copy to myself and to a person I never met before... who later became my close friend. I don't really remember much from the beginning but I stopped playing, came back, stopped playing. Sometimes played seriously. My GW2 playing history is not very consistent. I did play alot this year though, and surpassed myself and started doing the story and maxed out HoT masteries even. > > > > > > I loved Wildstar and Maplestory 2, both games with lovely housing systems, but they were shut down. > > > > > > So to my point... I've played MMORPGS for majority of my life and... I'm in a point of life where I don't know what to do. Everything is technically fine but I don't have dreams or purpose or anything. I probably have the possibility of getting the education I want, but I don't know what I want. WoW and GW2 (well, I guess Maplestory is as well, and Runescape that I haven't played in the longest time) I'm most familiar with. Maybe the apartment I live in doesn't feel like home, it's still so new and I sometimes wonder how did I end up here even though it's been 2 years already, but **there is a soothing effect from playing games with familiar virtual realities.** > > > > > > I don't want to quit, I can do combat, but I just get quickly tired of fighting for life all the time, every minute, every hour, every day. Maybe I got burnt out on GW2, when I switched to WoW everything seemed very chill in comparison - and that's probably because I am doing old content right now, but also leveling up in it. I tried the new expansion, well depending on the place it can be aggro happy or peaceful. It's not, however, aggro happy absolutely everywhere, like in PoF. It's possible to mine a node in peace sometimes. And I don't have to kill a battallion of mobs, just one mob. Makes it seem friendlier for sure. > > > I know I will return to GW2 and I still login for my daily reward, I might do a heart, but that's that right now for me. > > > > > > I can't drop these games I've played for so long. Not all of them anyway. I enjoy character customization the most and of course wish GW2 would recieve more of that as well. The combat... I can live with it, I just don't want it to be so extreme all the time. The way it is, I can live with that too, but then I can't play GW2 as the only game endlessly. Well... maybe nobody can, if that's all they do in a day. I guess it's normal. > > > I enjoy the story, assuming it's good. I used to enjoy chatting with other people but now I'm anxious about it and try to not invest my personal feelings anywhere. It's nice to see others getting along though. There are things I like about both games. > > > Hope this helped you to understand why I keep playing. Maybe I could try to explain more but I think I've spent at least half an hour writing this it will have to do. > > > > > > TL:DR; > > > In any case I can live with combat but if it's harder I burn out faster, and if it's too easy it can become boring. (So it can be hard to determine what is the good difficulty, and perhaps it would be better to let people select their own difficulty at any given time.) > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > and those 90% difference is one of the primary reasons for this problem. by scaling the game to the top 10 %, they basically flipped of all the normal players. > not much casualism left there. it will hurt them in the wallet too, who do you think they are making the next expansion for? That would suggest that open world is indeed scaled to the top x% of the playerbase and their top theoretical dps. But it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. You don't need to go to **any** website to "find a build". You can theorycraft it yourself, exactly the same way it is in many other mmorpgs. The 3rd party sites are there to help people that don't want to do it by themselves and at this point... you're complaining that someone's willing to help you and somehow blame the game for that? >if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed The game "lets" you level up with many builds and there's nothing wrong about that. Getting to 80 is pretty much a tutorial anyways where before that you didn't even unlock all of the possibilities of your character's theoretical builds. I don't see how that's any "fail" on the side of the game. > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all They let you play with your own buld, but different builds having different capabilities and performances between the content types and modes is to be expected and nothing out of ordinary. Neither in this game nor in many other rpgs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radda.8920 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 > @"Pockethole.5031" said: > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > Alright, that's it. > **I told you many times, I know how to play. If you can't believe it just stop insisting.** To have difficulties in open maps on one of the simplest mmo on the current market, I'm not so sure ... or bad build AND bad stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarRXA.5062 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 The thing is, people with a casual, role-playing mindset in PvE in GW2 tend to struggle the most. They want to play GW2 plug-in/play and that's fine to an extent, but it's not really a way to play the game that's conducive to having a smooth gameplay experience because, while it may be your character, you're not growing significantly in strength via gear in GW2. You've gotta learn how to cohesively build synergy within your passive (armor/weapons, runes/sigils + traits) and active-gameplay (skill usage, activate combat, dodging, direct damage mitigation, stun-breaks and expected gameplay responses). When you're lacking in both your character is a deaf mute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voltaicbore.8012 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, wildstar, EVE, BDO, LOTRO, RIFT, AION, warframe, TERA, and the list goes on and on > > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout > > and, have you been good in any of those? God, even EVE, man, I would love to see how you fared there, especially in that particular forum environment (for people unfamiliar with EVE: In their forums, actual admins tell you basically to kitten off when you whine about difficulty) Given the posts of his I've seen thus far, I'd put money on a hard "no" as the correct answer to your question. Furthermore, SWTOR and BDO have absolutely no place in any discussion when it comes to builds, build effectiveness, and game difficulties related to build effectiveness. SWTOR adopted what I'm told is a WoW-like system (don't know for sure, since I never played WoW), where you pick a class and a specialization, and you have maybe 2-3 meaningful choices along the way while the rest your build is preset. BDO's "build" system is literally "get all the skill XP you can and get _every single passive and active ability_ for your class. There's zero variety and choice at truly endgame levels of character progression. You can build different gear sets though to achieve different things, but that's a discussion for another time. So yeah, even if battledrone was any good at SWTOR or BDO, it would say very little about his ability to navigate GW2. There are a few other things on that list that obviously share similar irrelevance (EVE and LOTRO are probably the worst offenders), but eh, not worth the effort at this point to discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunTzu.4513 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 >I have to agree that there is plenty of room to play the way you want to play. I build and play for the things I like to do most, which is solo play open world/story, WvW roaming, unranked PvP. In terms of group PvE I will do strikes if my guild happens to be doing them and I like to do my T4 fractal dailies sometimes, usually via LFG. But raiding and CMs I have only done a little bit. >Given that, I play a roamer-style build that is tough as nails while dealing solid damage. It's resilient enough to survive all of the HoT champions solo, while also dealing enough damage to take most of them down in less than 60 seconds. The burst and sustained damage is adequate for strikes and T4 fractals, even CMs, but not appropriate for something like a daily static (which is fine, because I've never been a part of one!). >I can use almost the same build and play style at plat level in PvP or go solo roam with it (I'm well over rank 2000 there), too. It's not meta for anything. I don't even use anything close to the recommended rotation, stats, or even trait lines for my class. But I have at least some idea of what I'm doing and I've made these choices for a reason to come up with a play style that I enjoy and does what I need it to do. To me, that's the magic of GW2's "do whatever you want" method of handling buildcraft. Ah nice to see you commenting here. Imo your buildcraft and gameplay with your Mirage and now Weaver ist one of the prime exsamples what you can achive on soloing with a non meta build as long as you know what your doing skillwise and what are the encounter mechaniks . Even with incredible cheap gear variants. Also other guys like Lord Hizen proof again and again that you can do incredible things solo. I've already wrote it earlier but i don't know any other game with such a wide possible working build varity than GW2. You can nearly any type of stats and gear make working in some way. Are they all Meta? Surly not but you can do nearly all kind of content on non metabuilds imo as longs as you know what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 > @"SunTzu.4513" said: > >I have to agree that there is plenty of room to play the way you want to play. I build and play for the things I like to do most, which is solo play open world/story, WvW roaming, unranked PvP. In terms of group PvE I will do strikes if my guild happens to be doing them and I like to do my T4 fractal dailies sometimes, usually via LFG. But raiding and CMs I have only done a little bit. > > >Given that, I play a roamer-style build that is tough as nails while dealing solid damage. It's resilient enough to survive all of the HoT champions solo, while also dealing enough damage to take most of them down in less than 60 seconds. The burst and sustained damage is adequate for strikes and T4 fractals, even CMs, but not appropriate for something like a daily static (which is fine, because I've never been a part of one!). > > >I can use almost the same build and play style at plat level in PvP or go solo roam with it (I'm well over rank 2000 there), too. It's not meta for anything. I don't even use anything close to the recommended rotation, stats, or even trait lines for my class. But I have at least some idea of what I'm doing and I've made these choices for a reason to come up with a play style that I enjoy and does what I need it to do. To me, that's the magic of GW2's "do whatever you want" method of handling buildcraft. > > Ah nice to see you commenting here. Imo your buildcraft and gameplay with your Mirage and now Weaver ist one of the prime exsamples what you can achive on soloing with a non meta build as long as you know what your doing skillwise and what are the encounter mechaniks . Even with incredible cheap gear variants. Also other guys like Lord Hizen proof again and again that you can do incredible things solo. I've already wrote it earlier but i don't know any other game with such a wide possible working build varity than GW2. You can nearly any type of stats and gear make working in some way. Are they all Meta? Surly not but you can do nearly all kind of content on non metabuilds imo as longs as you know what you are doing. Thanks! Honored to be in the conversation with the likes of Lord Hizen. He was an inspiration to me as a new player. It was hard to find good information on how best to approach solo play. It's not generally a focus for the pros and streamers out there. They tend toward the fractal/raid and competitive content. To them, open world is just the place you go to maximize gold-per-hour, which tends toward a very different type of build than the build you would use to take on the world alone! What's interesting is that if you compare Hizen's builds to mine, we use different stats, utilities, and traits. Yet we're both able to solo tough challenges like the VB boss trio with those builds. More evidence that the free-form build system in GW2 offers plenty of ways to play it your way, even while groups push the meta relentlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, **wildstar**, **EVE**, BDO, LOTRO, **RIFT**, **AION**, **warframe**, **TERA**, and the list goes on and on > > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout > > And you think these didn't have optimal builds that performed much better than the others? Really? Which ones of these told you exactly what to build to be competitive? Which one of these could you not read descriptions to understand what skills do and how they synergize? You're giving examples of games that didn't even do what you claim every rpg should do: hold your hand. So why are you suddenly claiming that gw2 is something out of ordinary in this instance just because you have some choices to make? this game has the worst balance of them all, none of them are even close. dont believe me ? try them yourself. and none of them have such a complex build system either. a build system WITHOUT A TUTORIAL. lol.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > > > > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, **wildstar**, **EVE**, BDO, LOTRO, **RIFT**, **AION**, **warframe**, **TERA**, and the list goes on and on > > > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout > > > > And you think these didn't have optimal builds that performed much better than the others? Really? Which ones of these told you exactly what to build to be competitive? Which one of these could you not read descriptions to understand what skills do and how they synergize? You're giving examples of games that didn't even do what you claim every rpg should do: hold your hand. So why are you suddenly claiming that gw2 is something out of ordinary in this instance just because you have some choices to make? > > this game has the worst balance of them all, none of them are even close. dont believe me ? try them yourself. and none of them have such a complex > build system either. a build system WITHOUT A TUTORIAL. lol.... WoW used to have a somewhat more free-form build system in its early days. Their talent system allowed you to choose traits from 3 different trees for each class, with the more game-changing abilities falling at break-points which forced choices. For example, you had 51 talent points to spend so you could get a 21/30 build or a 20/31 build which would give you very different results. But you could also do 11/10/10, if you wanted, which almost always resulted in a borked build that was useless as you're attempting to be too many things at once with a random smattering of traits that build toward no focus. GW2 is a lot like that, except being non-trinity you're even more free to make bad choices. But I will point out that WoW never did and still doesn't have detailed tutorials for buildcraft. Does any MMO? It seems like that's deep-diving into the game's mechanics and not particularly well-suited to new players learning the basics. It would simply overwhelm with information. You seem to view that as a failing of the game's design because you're looking for games that don't have much depth to their mechanics and can be picked up and played easily by anyone with no investment. Let's be clear: MMOs are NOT that type of game. They are the antithesis of that design. You play them for years. They feature competitive and "endgame" content designed to challenge players who invest a lot of time. It's a failure of expectation on your part. There is no tutorial that is going to teach a brand new player what took other players months or years to learn. You have to invest yourself in games like these, practice, and improve. Looking at a tutorial that condenses everything down into a simple choice is not a realistic expectation for an MMO. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikaru.7618 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > > > > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, **wildstar**, **EVE**, BDO, LOTRO, **RIFT**, **AION**, **warframe**, **TERA**, and the list goes on and on > > > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout > > > > And you think these didn't have optimal builds that performed much better than the others? Really? Which ones of these told you exactly what to build to be competitive? Which one of these could you not read descriptions to understand what skills do and how they synergize? You're giving examples of games that didn't even do what you claim every rpg should do: hold your hand. So why are you suddenly claiming that gw2 is something out of ordinary in this instance just because you have some choices to make? > > this game has the worst balance of them all, none of them are even close. dont believe me ? try them yourself. and none of them have such a complex > build system either. a build system WITHOUT A TUTORIAL. lol.... What would you even want from a tutorial? Its not like the build and stat systems are complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 I've been running around HoT maps lately to do some collections that I left off and I gotta say that the current HoT maps are GW2 best maps made, the difficulty of each area and mobs is exactly how they should be not too hard, not too easy, some mechanics to deal with and also forcing you to think about what are your appropriate abilities and traits to use for the encounter. It forces you to find groups if you find something challenging and that is good, cause the idea of MMOs is to bring people together. The meta are not some mechanically challenging thing, but they do have them and they make people need coordination which is the only way they can be made somewhat challenging, since not everyone will be running raid group builds and usually in open world everything will fold at some number of people, and if it requires max damage it wouldn't work well as open world. The maps are really well fine tuned and are great experience and I do not understand why they moved away from that direction. The newer maps lack that special feeling where you go somewhere to finish something up and then see something happening and do it and something new pops up and this keeps going for a while, till you forget why were you there in the first place and just spend time there for no apparent reason and yet you enjoy it. Also there are constantly people on these maps 6 years in even though they are not the best farm, and people go there since it is fun. I really hope the move in the HoT direction for EoD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Tiilimon.6094" said: > You can opt out of combat in OW by playing stealth builds very easily, capped concentration should let you mine a couple nodes as a thief or scrapper and should even give you time to mount up before stealth fades. Concentration does not affect stealth duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiilimon.6094 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > @"Tiilimon.6094" said: > > You can opt out of combat in OW by playing stealth builds very easily, capped concentration should let you mine a couple nodes as a thief or scrapper and should even give you time to mount up before stealth fades. > Concentration does not affect stealth duration. > Oh that's even better! Just tested it and I was definitely wrong, so it turns out it's possible to mine two nodes and mount as a scrapper without any special gear requirements at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, wildstar, EVE, BDO, LOTRO, RIFT, AION, warframe, TERA, and the list goes on and on > > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout > > and, have you been good in any of those? God, even EVE, man, I would love to see how you fared there, especially in that particular forum environment (for people unfamiliar with EVE: In their forums, actual admins tell you basically to kitten off when you whine about difficulty) how awesome do i have to be, to get basic customer rights? and EVE was just a small side project to hang out with one of my buddies, it was never intended to be serious, so i never bothered to visit their forums. never made it past destroyers, and when he stopped playing it, so did i. but they still have a better build tutorial than this game, try fitting a shield repairer to a amarr ship, and it will actually warn you about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed > > > > > > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system, > > > > > > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too. > > > > > > > > > > You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them? > > > > > > > > lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, **wildstar**, **EVE**, BDO, LOTRO, **RIFT**, **AION**, **warframe**, **TERA**, and the list goes on and on > > > > if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout > > > > > > And you think these didn't have optimal builds that performed much better than the others? Really? Which ones of these told you exactly what to build to be competitive? Which one of these could you not read descriptions to understand what skills do and how they synergize? You're giving examples of games that didn't even do what you claim every rpg should do: hold your hand. So why are you suddenly claiming that gw2 is something out of ordinary in this instance just because you have some choices to make? > > > > this game has the worst balance of them all, none of them are even close. dont believe me ? try them yourself. and none of them have such a complex > > build system either. a build system WITHOUT A TUTORIAL. lol.... > > WoW used to have a somewhat more free-form build system in its early days. Their talent system allowed you to choose traits from 3 different trees for each class, with the more game-changing abilities falling at break-points which forced choices. For example, you had 51 talent points to spend so you could get a 21/30 build or a 20/31 build which would give you very different results. But you could also do 11/10/10, if you wanted, which almost always resulted in a borked build that was useless as you're attempting to be too many things at once with a random smattering of traits that build toward no focus. > > GW2 is a lot like that, except being non-trinity you're even more free to make bad choices. But I will point out that WoW never did and still doesn't have detailed tutorials for buildcraft. Does any MMO? It seems like that's deep-diving into the game's mechanics and not particularly well-suited to new players learning the basics. It would simply overwhelm with information. > > You seem to view that as a failing of the game's design because you're looking for games that don't have much depth to their mechanics and can be picked up and played easily by anyone with no investment. Let's be clear: MMOs are NOT that type of game. They are the antithesis of that design. You play them for years. They feature competitive and "endgame" content designed to challenge players who invest a lot of time. > > It's a failure of expectation on your part. There is no tutorial that is going to teach a brand new player what took other players months or years to learn. You have to invest yourself in games like these, practice, and improve. Looking at a tutorial that condenses everything down into a simple choice is not a realistic expectation for an MMO. Ever. sooo, this is the CASUAL game, that requires YEARS of training. well that makes sense. no problem there, that should work out fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > I've been running around HoT maps lately to do some collections that I left off and I gotta say that the current HoT maps are GW2 best maps made, the difficulty of each area and mobs is exactly how they should be not too hard, not too easy, some mechanics to deal with and also forcing you to think about what are your appropriate abilities and traits to use for the encounter. > It forces you to find groups if you find something challenging and that is good, cause the idea of MMOs is to bring people together. > The meta are not some mechanically challenging thing, but they do have them and they make people need coordination which is the only way they can be made somewhat challenging, since not everyone will be running raid group builds and usually in open world everything will fold at some number of people, and if it requires max damage it wouldn't work well as open world. The maps are really well fine tuned and are great experience and I do not understand why they moved away from that direction. The newer maps lack that special feeling where you go somewhere to finish something up and then see something happening and do it and something new pops up and this keeps going for a while, till you forget why were you there in the first place and just spend time there for no apparent reason and yet you enjoy it. > Also there are constantly people on these maps 6 years in even though they are not the best farm, and people go there since it is fun. I really hope the move in the HoT direction for EoD. this is the only place you can train gliding, one of the most important mechanics in the game. if they removed that barrier, it would collapse like a cardhouse. "bringing people together"....HOT forced a lot of players out of the game. i was there when it launched, and i saw the map chat and the forums light up in rage. HOT could only ever work as a hardcore farming instance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > I've been running around HoT maps lately to do some collections that I left off and I gotta say that the current HoT maps are GW2 best maps made, the difficulty of each area and mobs is exactly how they should be not too hard, not too easy, some mechanics to deal with and also forcing you to think about what are your appropriate abilities and traits to use for the encounter. > > It forces you to find groups if you find something challenging and that is good, cause the idea of MMOs is to bring people together. > > The meta are not some mechanically challenging thing, but they do have them and they make people need coordination which is the only way they can be made somewhat challenging, since not everyone will be running raid group builds and usually in open world everything will fold at some number of people, and if it requires max damage it wouldn't work well as open world. The maps are really well fine tuned and are great experience and I do not understand why they moved away from that direction. The newer maps lack that special feeling where you go somewhere to finish something up and then see something happening and do it and something new pops up and this keeps going for a while, till you forget why were you there in the first place and just spend time there for no apparent reason and yet you enjoy it. > > Also there are constantly people on these maps 6 years in even though they are not the best farm, and people go there since it is fun. I really hope the move in the HoT direction for EoD. > > this is the only place you can train gliding, one of the most important mechanics in the game. > if they removed that barrier, it would collapse like a cardhouse. > "bringing people together"....HOT forced a lot of players out of the game. i was there when it launched, and i saw the map chat and the forums light up in rage. > HOT could only ever work as a hardcore farming instance You don't need hundreds of levels just for gliding and that are the people I see there, chats and forums light up with rage for no reason all the time, and clearly were wrong since people still play 6 year old maps while there are way better GPH maps that require just pressing 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoGhosts.6790 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Some people - perhaps including Anet devs - seem to confuse or conflate challenging, engaging, fun content with annoying, frustrating and trolly content. Much of the mob mechanics in PoF appears designed with the express purpose of hindering your progress. That might have been their exact design principle. Fair enough, gotta have dat filler, right? And just to be clear, I don't consider the difficulty of the PoF maps or the mobs to be hard content. I soloed my way through the story and map completion without any trouble. But it was annoying a f. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 All this time complaining in here could have been better spent learning how to craft a build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchslein.8639 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Strange. When I started new months ago and went directly to HOT with my little Exo-stuff I had zero problems there. Could with my Mesmer (which had a super random build and thrown together EXO gear without runes or jewelry) even make many HP's solo and the one where I had problems, eg the frogs or the vampire bat people came every time to help when i asked. While in POF I had super problems with the whole being pulled and sniped from mobs. And when I asked for help there ... 90% was only the chirping of crickets to hear. Without my guild there, I would not have managed much although my gear was already better. I still can't understand how people find POF easier than HOT. POF has annoying mobs at every turn that are not hard, but just so annoying. If you run around there with others and you are not the first, you have a lot of stuff on your ass and you have to see where you stay. HOT I can just Braindead hop through the Pampa, while in POF literally mines lie on the ground. You can scream l2p as much as you want, POF maps are just boring and annoying as hell. And above all just as empty ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > Strange. When I started new months ago and went directly to HOT with my little Exo-stuff I had zero problems there. Could with my Mesmer (which had a super random build and thrown together EXO gear without runes or jewelry) even make many HP's solo and the one where I had problems, eg the frogs or the vampire bat people came every time to help when i asked. > While in POF I had super problems with the whole being pulled and sniped from mobs. And when I asked for help there ... 90% was only the chirping of crickets to hear. Without my guild there, I would not have managed much although my gear was already better. > > I still can't understand how people find POF easier than HOT. POF has annoying mobs at every turn that are not hard, but just so annoying. If you run around there with others and you are not the first, you have a lot of stuff on your kitten and you have to see where you stay. > HOT I can just Braindead hop through the Pampa, while in POF literally mines lie on the ground. > You can scream l2p as much as you want, POF maps are just boring and annoying as hell. And above all just as empty ... Keep in mind that HoT was originally *alot* harder than it is now. Anet had to nerf things after a couple of months because players could no longer complete hero points and events. Afaik PoF hasnt seen any extensive nerf (except maybe the mission with the soul eater that really wasnt hard, just had a certain trick to it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchslein.8639 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > > Strange. When I started new months ago and went directly to HOT with my little Exo-stuff I had zero problems there. Could with my Mesmer (which had a super random build and thrown together EXO gear without runes or jewelry) even make many HP's solo and the one where I had problems, eg the frogs or the vampire bat people came every time to help when i asked. > > While in POF I had super problems with the whole being pulled and sniped from mobs. And when I asked for help there ... 90% was only the chirping of crickets to hear. Without my guild there, I would not have managed much although my gear was already better. > > > > I still can't understand how people find POF easier than HOT. POF has annoying mobs at every turn that are not hard, but just so annoying. If you run around there with others and you are not the first, you have a lot of stuff on your kitten and you have to see where you stay. > > HOT I can just Braindead hop through the Pampa, while in POF literally mines lie on the ground. > > You can scream l2p as much as you want, POF maps are just boring and annoying as hell. And above all just as empty ... > Keep in mind that HoT was originally *alot* harder than it is now. Anet had to nerf things after a couple of months because players could no longer complete hero points and events. > > Afaik PoF hasnt seen any extensive nerf (except maybe the mission with the soul eater that really wasnt hard, just had a certain trick to it). > I know that, I played at the HOT release and loved it. There, however, with far better Equipt Toons. And it was super easy for me personally and mega fun, even if I understand why many had their problems. But even then it was far from the current POF in terms of annoying enemies.(Heck, even the chack caves are nothing compared to that. You get rid of them quickly and don't have 100 others on your ass as soon as one loses aggro like in POF.) I haven't read most of the stuff here. But I've written this before somewhere else. The mobs in POF are not really hard. There are just a lot of them, and 90% have super annoying mechanics. And when a horde of them is chasing you, you have to be a pretty good player, or have very good run away skills equipped. I remember one evening where I had to do things for the story, where you had to run from point to point and do something with flags or something and I was absolutely overwhelmed with my Mesmer because the Mobs spawned so fast in the time where I grabbed the flag. And then all around were also heaps of mobs who had such a huge aggrorange ... At the end I went full on stealth and have my char inwardly shouted that he should fumble the flag faster. **POF is not HARD, it is annoying.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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