My honest feelings about map mob difficulty in PoF

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

> > > Strange. When I started new months ago and went directly to HOT with my little Exo-stuff I had zero problems there. Could with my Mesmer (which had a super random build and thrown together EXO gear without runes or jewelry) even make many HP's solo and the one where I had problems, eg the frogs or the vampire bat people came every time to help when i asked.

> > > While in POF I had super problems with the whole being pulled and sniped from mobs. And when I asked for help there ... 90% was only the chirping of crickets to hear. Without my guild there, I would not have managed much although my gear was already better.

> > >

> > > I still can't understand how people find POF easier than HOT. POF has annoying mobs at every turn that are not hard, but just so annoying. If you run around there with others and you are not the first, you have a lot of stuff on your kitten and you have to see where you stay.

> > > HOT I can just Braindead hop through the Pampa, while in POF literally mines lie on the ground.

> > > You can scream l2p as much as you want, POF maps are just boring and annoying as hell. And above all just as empty ...

> > Keep in mind that HoT was originally *alot* harder than it is now. Anet had to nerf things after a couple of months because players could no longer complete hero points and events.

> >

> > Afaik PoF hasnt seen any extensive nerf (except maybe the mission with the soul eater that really wasnt hard, just had a certain trick to it).

> >

>

> I know that, I played at the HOT release and loved it. There, however, with far better Equipt Toons. And it was super easy for me personally and mega fun, even if I understand why many had their problems.

> But even then it was far from the current POF in terms of annoying enemies.(Heck, even the chack caves are nothing compared to that. You get rid of them quickly and don't have 100 others on your kitten as soon as one loses aggro like in POF.)

> I haven't read most of the stuff here. But I've written this before somewhere else. The mobs in POF are not really hard. There are just a lot of them, and 90% have super annoying mechanics. And when a horde of them is chasing you, you have to be a pretty good player, or have very good run away skills equipped.

> I remember one evening where I had to do things for the story, where you had to run from point to point and do something with flags or something and I was absolutely overwhelmed with my Mesmer because the Mobs spawned so fast in the time where I grabbed the flag. And then all around were also heaps of mobs who had such a huge aggrorange ...

> At the end I went full on stealth and have my char inwardly shouted that he should fumble the flag faster.

>

> **POF is not HARD, it is annoying.**

Which is where I disgree. Thats not annoying. Does PoF have heavier emphasis on AoE? Probably. But its so simple to AoE. Most of the time I find myself having to pull multiple groups at once because those groups die too fast so it become boring. Pretty much have the same issues in the new DRMs, way too small groups that one player can take out in seconds (the only exception I've found is those massive damage fire AoE attacks in the fields)

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

> Strange. When I started new months ago and went directly to HOT with my little Exo-stuff I had zero problems there. Could with **my Mesmer** (which had a super random build and thrown together EXO gear without runes or jewelry) **even make many HP's solo** and the one where I had problems, eg the frogs or the vampire bat people came every time to help when i asked.

>(...)

 

You probably mostly let the clones tank for you in ow, which is why you're better suited for "stronger single mobs" over groups when you're prooobably lacking proper cleave. The content isn't "annoying" if you understand mechanics of the game and use them according to the situation you're getting yourself into.

[Fuchslein.8639]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

> > > > Strange. When I started new months ago and went directly to HOT with my little Exo-stuff I had zero problems there. Could with my Mesmer (which had a super random build and thrown together EXO gear without runes or jewelry) even make many HP's solo and the one where I had problems, eg the frogs or the vampire bat people came every time to help when i asked.

> > > > While in POF I had super problems with the whole being pulled and sniped from mobs. And when I asked for help there ... 90% was only the chirping of crickets to hear. Without my guild there, I would not have managed much although my gear was already better.

> > > >

> > > > I still can't understand how people find POF easier than HOT. POF has annoying mobs at every turn that are not hard, but just so annoying. If you run around there with others and you are not the first, you have a lot of stuff on your kitten and you have to see where you stay.

> > > > HOT I can just Braindead hop through the Pampa, while in POF literally mines lie on the ground.

> > > > You can scream l2p as much as you want, POF maps are just boring and annoying as hell. And above all just as empty ...

> > > Keep in mind that HoT was originally *alot* harder than it is now. Anet had to nerf things after a couple of months because players could no longer complete hero points and events.

> > >

> > > Afaik PoF hasnt seen any extensive nerf (except maybe the mission with the soul eater that really wasnt hard, just had a certain trick to it).

> > >

> >

> > I know that, I played at the HOT release and loved it. There, however, with far better Equipt Toons. And it was super easy for me personally and mega fun, even if I understand why many had their problems.

> > But even then it was far from the current POF in terms of annoying enemies.(Heck, even the chack caves are nothing compared to that. You get rid of them quickly and don't have 100 others on your kitten as soon as one loses aggro like in POF.)

> > I haven't read most of the stuff here. But I've written this before somewhere else. The mobs in POF are not really hard. There are just a lot of them, and 90% have super annoying mechanics. And when a horde of them is chasing you, you have to be a pretty good player, or have very good run away skills equipped.

> > I remember one evening where I had to do things for the story, where you had to run from point to point and do something with flags or something and I was absolutely overwhelmed with my Mesmer because the Mobs spawned so fast in the time where I grabbed the flag. And then all around were also heaps of mobs who had such a huge aggrorange ...

> > At the end I went full on stealth and have my char inwardly shouted that he should fumble the flag faster.

> >

> > **POF is not HARD, it is annoying.**

> Which is where I disgree. Thats not annoying. Does PoF have heavier emphasis on AoE? Probably. But its so simple to AoE. Most of the time I find myself having to pull multiple groups at once because those groups die too fast so it become boring. Pretty much have the same issues in the new DRMs, way too small groups that one player can take out in seconds (the only exception I've found is those massive damage fire AoE attacks in the fields)

 

I don't have much time for GW2. The reason I played it in the first place is because everyone advertises that GW2 is casual and work friendly. I don't want to spend my time slaughtering through hordes of mobs, easy or hard. There are plenty of games where you can do that. That's why I liked Core Gw2 and HOT. You can just ignore the mobs. While in POF you should get rid of them if you want to do screens or something else because of the range.

 

I am someone who likes hard content. I've been through enough singleplayer games on hardcore and played very long raids, T4 and CM. But GW2 OW is not advertised as a hardcore experience (by fans and partners and anet itself) I played GW2 to relax and pointlessly waste my time with Achievments and Shiny-Hunting. But since POF GW2 has become a hack'n'slash game where 'meachnik' means hordes of enemies that can see and shoot at you over miles, while your ranges don't even reach over your own feet ...

[voltaicbore.8012]

> @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

 

TLDR; Even if it makes logical 'sense' for PoF mobs to just be everywhere all the time, it's still a terrible design decision, and one that is inferior to how they designed mob interactions in core maps.

 

> I don't have much time for GW2. The reason I played it in the first place is because everyone advertises that GW2 is casual and work friendly. I don't want to spend my time slaughtering through hordes of mobs, easy or hard. There are plenty of games where you can do that. That's why I liked Core Gw2 and HOT. You can just ignore the mobs. While in POF you should get rid of them if you want to do screens or something else because of the range.

 

I feel exactly the same on this issue. There's a lot of value to being able to just look around and take in the map environments, and that's getting increasingly less worth it to try. I also play GW2 because it's not about grinding 2000x mobs everywhere you go, and I'm sure many others feel the same as we do.

 

I'd have to go back and check more places to be 100% sure, but I feel like core maps were designed with much more logic to mob locations and patterns. For instance, you can get around Queensdale along many paved roads that don't randomly have enemies sitting on them for no reason. You run into centaurs by their encampments, and bandits by their hideouts. The only time you see mobs actively coming towards guarded (or at least, usually quiet) areas is during dynamic events. This, to me, is the feature that most distinguishes GW2 from the standard mmo. Said standard mmos often have mobs standing out in the field. Literally standing still. There is no reason for them to be where they are and do nothing all day until a player comes along. The fact that there was some logic and movement to mob patterns is what made the core GW2 experience so attractive and different for me, and they're losing touch with that.

 

I get that both awakened and forged are not really standard living enemies, like the ones often encountered in a lot of core maps. They're closer to branded, which admittedly in core maps you find standing around in open spaces not really doing anything other than... existing. Neither awakened nor forged really seem to need to protect themselves from weather or hunger (or any of the typical hazards that life-forms have to deal with), so it's not totally illogical that you could encounter them in random places very far from any base or facility.

 

That still doesn't change how I feel though. Logical or not, I don't like how their design is leaning harder into "let's use mobs that we can just drop anywhere, anytime, for any reason, and not have to actually design a good map 'feeling' around them."

 

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Josiah.2967" said:

> My pet peave is the people that complain about wanting harder open world combat...but then go out to the open world with an optimized open world build, full optimized gear, and full infusions.

>

> If you want a challenge. Downgrade your gear when doing open world combat. If you want hard content with maximum gear., do a raid... If you take that part away from the non-hardcore players, this game is dead.

>

> End of rant.

 

S'truth. It almost killed HoT (along with the mastery-gating, and time-gating, and "adventure"-gating...), and to be honest, those mobs are still overtuned. Many are *so close* to being the right engagement level for more veteran players, but as they are, they defy so many unspoken rules built into class design. PoF, at least, is better about it, using a broader variety of failure-punishment, though far more leaning on CC, which is an entirely separate gripe. PoF mobs are less 'difficult' but can definitely be more irritating.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

> > @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

>

> TLDR; Even if it makes logical 'sense' for PoF mobs to just be everywhere all the time, it's still a terrible design decision, and one that is inferior to how they designed mob interactions in core maps.

>

> > I don't have much time for GW2. The reason I played it in the first place is because everyone advertises that GW2 is casual and work friendly. I don't want to spend my time slaughtering through hordes of mobs, easy or hard. There are plenty of games where you can do that. That's why I liked Core Gw2 and HOT. You can just ignore the mobs. While in POF you should get rid of them if you want to do screens or something else because of the range.

>

> I feel exactly the same on this issue. There's a lot of value to being able to just look around and take in the map environments, and that's getting increasingly less worth it to try. I also play GW2 because it's not about grinding 2000x mobs everywhere you go, and I'm sure many others feel the same as we do.

>

> I'd have to go back and check more places to be 100% sure, but I feel like core maps were designed with much more logic to mob locations and patterns. For instance, you can get around Queensdale along many paved roads that don't randomly have enemies sitting on them for no reason.

 

And comparing lvl 1-15 core zone to the late/endgame one from expansion where we got especs+mounts makes sense in what way exactly?

You can still run around core areas if that's what you enjoy. Taking every zone in the game back to the introductory/tutorial grade is far from logical or desired by probably most people that play any game at all.

 

If you want *walking simulator*, then play *walking simulator* instead of something that is/wants to be *action mmorpg*.

[Fuchslein.8639]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

> > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

> >

> > TLDR; Even if it makes logical 'sense' for PoF mobs to just be everywhere all the time, it's still a terrible design decision, and one that is inferior to how they designed mob interactions in core maps.

> >

> > > I don't have much time for GW2. The reason I played it in the first place is because everyone advertises that GW2 is casual and work friendly. I don't want to spend my time slaughtering through hordes of mobs, easy or hard. There are plenty of games where you can do that. That's why I liked Core Gw2 and HOT. You can just ignore the mobs. While in POF you should get rid of them if you want to do screens or something else because of the range.

> >

> > I feel exactly the same on this issue. There's a lot of value to being able to just look around and take in the map environments, and that's getting increasingly less worth it to try. I also play GW2 because it's not about grinding 2000x mobs everywhere you go, and I'm sure many others feel the same as we do.

> >

> > I'd have to go back and check more places to be 100% sure, but I feel like core maps were designed with much more logic to mob locations and patterns. For instance, you can get around Queensdale along many paved roads that don't randomly have enemies sitting on them for no reason.

>

> And comparing lvl 1-15 core zone to the late/endgame one from expansion where we got especs+mounts makes sense in what way exactly?

> You can still run around core areas if that's what you enjoy. Taking every zone in the game back to the introductory/tutorial grade is far from logical or desired by probably most people that play any game at all.

>

> If you want *walking simulator*, then play *walking simulator* instead of something that is/wants to be *action mmorpg*.

 

If you want a super hardcore hack'n'slay with endless hordes of enemies, play DMC.

In case you don't realize it, that's sarcasm for your constantly exaggerated responses like "if you want a walking simulator".

[Jilora.9524]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

> > > > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said:

> > > >

> > > > TLDR; Even if it makes logical 'sense' for PoF mobs to just be everywhere all the time, it's still a terrible design decision, and one that is inferior to how they designed mob interactions in core maps.

> > > >

> > > > > I don't have much time for GW2. The reason I played it in the first place is because everyone advertises that GW2 is casual and work friendly. I don't want to spend my time slaughtering through hordes of mobs, easy or hard. There are plenty of games where you can do that. That's why I liked Core Gw2 and HOT. You can just ignore the mobs. While in POF you should get rid of them if you want to do screens or something else because of the range.

> > > >

> > > > I feel exactly the same on this issue. There's a lot of value to being able to just look around and take in the map environments, and that's getting increasingly less worth it to try. I also play GW2 because it's not about grinding 2000x mobs everywhere you go, and I'm sure many others feel the same as we do.

> > > >

> > > > I'd have to go back and check more places to be 100% sure, but I feel like core maps were designed with much more logic to mob locations and patterns. For instance, you can get around Queensdale along many paved roads that don't randomly have enemies sitting on them for no reason.

> > >

> > > And comparing lvl 1-15 core zone to the late/endgame one from expansion where we got especs+mounts makes sense in what way exactly?

> > > You can still run around core areas if that's what you enjoy. Taking every zone in the game back to the introductory/tutorial grade is far from logical or desired by probably most people that play any game at all.

> > >

> > > If you want *walking simulator*, then play *walking simulator* instead of something that is/wants to be *action mmorpg*.

> >

> > If you want a super hardcore hack'n'slay with endless hordes of enemies, play DMC.

> > In case you don't realize it, that's sarcasm for your constantly exaggerated responses like "if you want a walking simulator".

>

> "Great" job dodging. Keep expecting lategame maps to be on the same level as queensdale, I guess.

 

No one dodged anything. Your still in here telling players they can't find something annoying because you didn't. Then to critique a build with no idea of said build and say that's why is laughable. Just like you lack of understanding sarcasm. He or anyone can think something is annoying or the aggro range is annoying or the respawn rate is annoying or struggle in PoF and just because you say you didn't means nothing except he did and you didn't. And plz for the love of god don't spam me with whiney private emails again. You can not tell us how our experience of the game is.

[Ashen.2907]

I enjoy difficult content and think that PoF mobs could be more powerful. Annoying content is something else entirely. It is all about how you approach making something difficult.

[SunTzu.4513]

>If you said you think PoF mobs are just fine and not annoying and perfect then cool but you are instead telling everyone they can't find mobs annoying because they have a bad build and need to l2p.

 

But this is imo the main problem in GW2. A bad build can carry you just up to some point. After you reach this point you have to carry your weight with your individual play skills. I play this game since release and yes my opinion is mostly build on anecdotal evidence to this topic (Backed up with some stats the Dev's said like the DPS differences between players on their metrics) but a lot of long time players i talked about this topic in the past gravitated towards the same conclusion: Most people struggle with learn to adept. L2P is in the OW/Story not that big kind of a problem because you can AA trough 99% of all mobs if you using dodges proberly.

 

The last big outrage regarding towards difficulty we got was in POF to the EoS i think. First of all yes i think the first nerf was necessary beacuse the boss mechaniks were a little bit wonky and badly tuned. But the follow up nerfs were just straight too much because they turned the boss mechanik into a joke. I don't even thought there was anything hard/wrong with the boss (I've already had done him on 3 toons before the first nerf came in) until a guild mate told me about the salt in the forums. There were pages of complaints about this boss. In those threads there were a lot of very helpfull people who explain how to kill the boss even without abusing some wonky range tactics. Most of the people who were complaing refuse to take any kind of helpfull advice. No i dont want to change my utility. No i don't want to take another trait or weapon for some hard cc... Just nerf it so i can move on without any effort.

 

I've done a lot of PoF content over the last years ( Bountys and Metas are my thing in this game i do them daily even public map completion HP runs) and i never run in this big difficultys as they are described here aside of one or two areas wich are intended to have a high mob dense. I just don't see where it regularly happened that you can't mount because you always aggro/chainpulling something. The most ''anyoing'' thing is that every mob seems to have some kind of baked in condition apply, but with some extra cleanse utility/trait or sigil you can easily work around that. Also the projectile hate of Harpys/Jacs can easily avoided with the right utility. Guarded gather nodes (Aside from a handfull with some Vets or those nasty Fire Djiins) are also easy clearable just with the raptors tail swipe into an AA chain or one offensive cd skill.

 

I don't want to say that everyone who struggles with PoF/HoT in terms on qol things or difficulty is a bad player or need to ''get gud'' and also i promote play what you like because i think at the end of the day we all play it for fun so play what seems fun to you... But as long as it is possible to take out legendary bountys solo or finishing big metas solo only by adjusting a build with stats and traits nearly every problem we speak about can be solved by using mechaniks the game offers to us players.

 

Edit for some typos.

[Jilora.9524]

> @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> >If you said you think PoF mobs are just fine and not annoying and perfect then cool but you are instead telling everyone they can't find mobs annoying because they have a bad build and need to l2p.

>

> But this is imo the main problem in GW2. A bad build can carry you just up to some point. After you reach this point you have to carry your weight with your individual play skills. I play this game since release and yes my opinion is mostly build on anecdotal evidence to this topic (Backed up with some stats the Dev's said like the DPS differences between players on their metrics) but a lot of long time players i talked about this topic in the past gravitated towards the same conclusion: Most people struggle with learn to adept. L2P is in the OW/Story not that big kind of a problem because you can AA trough 99% of all mobs if you using dodges proberly.

>

> The last big outrage regarding towards difficulty we got was in POF to the EoS i think. First of all yes i think the first nerf was necessary beacuse the boss mechaniks were a little bit wonky and badly tuned. But the follow up nerfs were just straight too much because they turned the boss mechanik into a joke. I don't even thought there was anything hard/wrong with the boss (I've already had done him on 3 toons before the first nerf came in) until a guild mate told me about the salt in the forums. There were pages of complaints about this boss. In those threads there were a lot of very helpfull people who explain how to kill the boss even without abusing some wonky range tactics. Most of the people who were complaing refuse to take any kind of helpfull advice. No i dont want to change my utility. No i don't want to take another trait or weapon for some hard cc... Just nerf it so i can move on without any effort.

>

> I've done a lot of PoF content over the last years ( Bountys and Metas are my thing in this game i do them daily even public map completion HP runs) and i never run in this big difficultys as they are described here aside of one or two areas wich are intended to have a high mob dense. I just don't see where it regularly happened that you can't mount because you always aggro/chainpulling something. The most ''anyoing'' thing is that every mob seems to have some kind of baked in condition apply, but with some extra cleanse utility/trait or sigil you can easily work around that. Also the projectile hate of Harpys/Jacs can easily avoided with the right utility. Guarded gather nodes (Aside from a handfull with some Vets or those nasty Fire Djiins) are also easy clearable just with the raptors tail swipe into an AA chain or one offensive cd skill.

>

> I don't want to say that everyone who struggles with PoF/HoT in terms on qol things or difficulty is a bad player or need to ''get gud'' and also i promote play what you like because i think at the end of the day we all play it for fun so play what seems fun to you... But as long as it is possible to take out legendary bountys solo or finishing big metas solo only by adjusting a build with stats and traits nearly every problem we speak about can be solved by using mechaniks the game offers to us players.

>

> Edit for some typos.

 

The thing is most players are casual average players. Of course if every single one of us went to perfect copy paste meta builds and learned our proper 24 skill rotation and then had 5 build templates set up for every situation they yes we would melt and destroy all content and this game wouldn't be fun at all. I can even take it a step further and say just everyone play a version of guardian right now and you will never have an issue. but no, noone want to do crap like that for open world and yes there is a huge gap in skill level.

They are just complaining about basic annoyances and overtuned stuff and when I take my crap exotic 80 boosted alt accounts and get steamrolled by a vet hydra that autopaths through a hero point your fighting I can go dam players might get annoyed. Or watch players get killed up at highland ranch because they fighting the harpies instead of gathering carrots and go they must love that.

Once you get to bountys and WB and t4 fracs and raids sure start learning your meta builds and learn rotations not to go get that flax node.

As for soloing bountys not every class can. That's some high level guard/rev build that 99 percent of us will never get to that level so just because that's possible doesn't mean 7 fanged iboga aren't annoying to fight or get away from fighting.

 

[mindcircus.1506]

**A few of honest questions to those who agree with the OP:**

1. Are there any specific areas on the PoF maps where you think there are problems?

2. Are there any mobs/enemy types that you feel are specifically overtuned?

3. Would you describe yourself as a new, intermediate or veteran player?

[Mungo Zen.9364]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> **A few of honest questions to those who agree with the OP:**

> 1. Are there any specific areas on the PoF maps where you think there are problems?

> 2. Are there any mobs/enemy types that you feel are specifically overtuned?

> 3. Would you describe yourself as a new, intermediate or veteran player?

 

Hahahahaha

 

Those questions have been asked multiple times in different ways and not a straight answer has been given.

 

Which is funny considering this thread is weeks old now, that people responding to this thread couldn’t say ‘today I went here and this thing happened’. Like, if it happens with such frequency to have so many passionate responses there should be many easy daily examples of what is causing the issue for some players.

[maddoctor.2738]

For anyone that doesn't know, in core tyria, season 2, heart of thorns and season 3 maps you can safely engage a mob with a 600 range skill because mobs engage at about **500** units. In starter zones you can safely engage an enemy with a 450 range skill as well, because starter zone mobs have an even shorter active radius of only about **400** units. I'm not sure at which exact level the radius increases from 400 to 500 units, but that's what happens.

 

In Path of Fire, season 4 and Icebrood Saga maps you CANNOT safely engage a mob even at 900 range, because mob radius is 1000 units. You can still safely engage mobs at 1200 range and above, but use anything under 1000 and the mob will attack first. This also means _other_ mobs will engage as well at that distance because this engagement distance also comes into account when a mob calls for help and activates allies. A mob in Heart of Thorns will alert nearby allies at 500 range, while a mob in Path of Fire will alert allies at 1000 range. This creates the effect of being swarmed by mobs, occasionally mobs coming out of nowhere, while you aren't even close to them, because one of their allies was close to them and alerted them to your presence.

 

Of course posts like "this is too hard please make it easier" don't really work, they are too general and offer very little value for a discussion, only heated debates between the "it's too hard, please make it easier" and the "it is too easy, please make it harder" crowds with some variations between the two. But a question that can be made is, should mobs in Path of Fire+ have their engagement distance reduced?

[SunTzu.4513]

>But a question that can be made is, should mobs in Path of Fire+ have their engagement distance reduced?

 

That's a good one. Like on other topics towards difficulty/annoyance in the OW there should be a middle way. I would say yes. But not generally. A good compromise for me would be tune down some of the aggro range for some types of mobs but others should stay like how they are. I would take the route of having a wider aggro range on guarded places like fortresses of the the forged or heartland/main structures of jokos awakend forces. Maybe an other workround would be that different types of mobs are capped on the ability to call for help. Something like a normal food soldier can bring max 3 other mobs into battle by calling out for help or for every mob which is joining the radius for get other mobs into battle will decrase for a ceratin amount of range. Other mobs like commanders/leaders/vets should have a long aggro range and should be able to draw more mobs into battle by calling out for help.

[voltaicbore.8012]

> @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> >But a question that can be made is, should mobs in Path of Fire+ have their engagement distance reduced?

>

> That's a good one. Like on other topics towards difficulty/annoyance in the OW there should be a middle way. I would say yes. But not generally. A good compromise for me would be tune down some of the aggro range for some types of mobs but others should stay like how they are. I would take the route of having a wider aggro range on guarded places like fortresses of the the forged or heartland/main structures of jokos awakend forces. Maybe an other workround would be that different types of mobs are capped on the ability to call for help. Something like a normal food soldier can bring max 3 other mobs into battle by calling out for help or for every mob which is joining the radius for get other mobs into battle will decrase for a ceratin amount of range. Other mobs like commanders/leaders/vets should have a long aggro range and should be able to draw more mobs into battle by calling out for help.

 

I like this idea (different types of mobs having different aggro ranges and effects).

 

I would further extend the idea so that specific mobs, such as that one forged type that marks targets for other forged sharpshooters, would have long aggro range and could bring in specific allies.

 

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> **A few of honest questions to those who agree with the OP:**

> 1. Are there any specific areas on the PoF maps where you think there are problems?

> 2. Are there any mobs/enemy types that you feel are specifically overtuned?

> 3. Would you describe yourself as a new, intermediate or veteran player?

 

I don't actually agree with OP (who describes PoF mobs as less 'easy' than other areas), but I agree with the general sentiment that the design is a bit annoying, and overall detracts from the experience of being inside a PoF map. So answers:

 

1. The fallen statue HP in Elon Riverlands is a good example of what I don't like. There's always a bunch of harpies hanging around there, and they're quite easy to deal with. They're just a pointless annoyance though, and IMO they add nothing (lore, immersion, combat challenge, etc.). They seem to be there purely to disrupt your ability to channel an HP or just take a look around at the environment. At least in core maps most of the time harpies are hanging around their nesting sites, outside of dynamic events. See, this isn't just about aggro range on the Forged/Awakened. It's about spamming useless fights that don't even have an ambience or storytelling value to them. Just complete wastes of time.

 

2. No. I can kill them all, on every class. But again, ability to kill these with ease was never my beef with PoF.

 

3. Veteran. Not like OG GW1 players or anything, but I've played GW2 for 5 years, 24K achieves, capped mastery, 7 or so legendaries, etc. Not the absolute greatest, but I know how to handle combat and the game in general.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> Hahahahaha

>

> Those questions have been asked multiple times in different ways and not a straight answer has been given.

Sure.... but then no straight questions have been given... there's been a ton of rhetoric on both sides.

I'm just curious what people who are issuing the complaints are actually struggling with.

Not the low-effort people complaining that they should be allowed to walk around maps and just enjoy the scenery, and not the people looking for free loot saying they should be able to harvest some of the more lucrative nodes without mitigating aggro...

..but people who actually enjoy playing video games for an engaging experience and still feel the mobs are overtund.

 

It personally took me a couple days when I first hit PoF to learn how to properly handle the difference in AI behaviours. The chain aggro that comes with the increased threat ranges, the veterans that are much more meaningful than core or HoT ones took a little adjustment for sure.

But a couple days later it was cool and it certainly wasn't the kick the the crotch that HoT was after core.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

> 1. The fallen statue HP in Elon Riverlands is a good example of what I don't like. There's always a bunch of harpies hanging around there, and they're quite easy to deal with. They're just a pointless annoyance though, and IMO they add nothing (lore, immersion, combat challenge, etc.). They seem to be there purely to disrupt your ability to channel an HP or just take a look around at the environment.

Actually their presence in terms of the worldbuilding makes perfect sense as across many areas of the PoF maps, cliffs in higher elevations in warmer areas have harpies. We see this in Desert Highlands, Elon, the front area of Desolation and in Vabbi. It makes just fine thematic sense.

From a gameplay perspective you are right, there are there to interupt your channel of the commune. Mitigating this is simply part of getting the HP. It's functionally no different than the HP in the Sulfur flats of Desolation only the fact that the harpies are already there, versus spawned when you hit the HP. Hardly a big enough difference to get your back up about.

From a lore perspective, I believe the harpies and their presence in the area is talked about in the original game.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> > Hahahahaha

> >

> > Those questions have been asked multiple times in different ways and not a straight answer has been given.

> Sure.... but then no straight questions have been given... there's been a ton of rhetoric on both sides.

> I'm just curious what people who are issuing the complaints are actually struggling with.

> Not the low-effort people complaining that they should be allowed to walk around maps and just enjoy the scenery, and not the people looking for free loot saying they should be able to harvest some of the more lucrative nodes without mitigating aggro...

> ..but people who actually enjoy playing video games for an engaging experience and still feel the mobs are overtund.

>

> It personally took me a couple days when I first hit PoF to learn how to properly handle the difference in AI behaviours. The chain aggro that comes with the increased threat ranges, the veterans that are much more meaningful than core or HoT ones took a little adjustment for sure.

> But a couple days later it was cool and it certainly wasn't the kick the the crotch that HoT was after core.

 

It's easy to say no straight answers were given when the questions were never straight to begin with. This discussion is more nuanced than just people who need to git gud claiming the mobs are overtuned. You only had to look at the very first response in the thread to see that:

 

"PoF mob density is no worse than HoT. However, the aggro range on many PoF/LS4 mobs is far longer. The overall effect is that moving around without being harassed by every mob within a square mile of your position is significantly more difficult in these later maps. Personally, I can't stand it. I find it really irritating and wish they'd reduce the aggro range to the way it was in HoT." -Me

 

You might have also missed this, a few posts ago:

 

"Of course posts like "this is too hard please make it easier" don't really work, they are too general and offer very little value for a discussion, only heated debates between the "it's too hard, please make it easier" and the "it is too easy, please make it harder" crowds with some variations between the two. But a question that can be made is, should mobs in Path of Fire+ have their engagement distance reduced?" -maddoctor.2738

 

In the same post he outlines his own testing which indicates that there was a significant increase in aggro range in going from HoT to PoF, possibly as much as doubling the aggro range. I honestly wasn't aware the difference was quite that huge, but it's always been very noticeable to me.

 

In my opinion, it's annoying and no amount of "gittin' gud" is going to change that because it isn't killing the mobs or surviving them that is the problem. It's that the relative cost between being IC/OOC is much greater now that we have mounts. Previously, if you got stuck in combat it was only the difference between IC/OOC foot speed. Now it's the difference between IC foot speed and leaping away on your raptor! You really feel that! Combined with a greatly increased aggro range, you get to feel that a lot more often than you do in HoT content!

 

 

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> > > Hahahahaha

> > >

> > > Those questions have been asked multiple times in different ways and not a straight answer has been given.

> > Sure.... but then no straight questions have been given... there's been a ton of rhetoric on both sides.

> > I'm just curious what people who are issuing the complaints are actually struggling with.

> > Not the low-effort people complaining that they should be allowed to walk around maps and just enjoy the scenery, and not the people looking for free loot saying they should be able to harvest some of the more lucrative nodes without mitigating aggro...

> > ..but people who actually enjoy playing video games for an engaging experience and still feel the mobs are overtund.

> >

> > It personally took me a couple days when I first hit PoF to learn how to properly handle the difference in AI behaviours. The chain aggro that comes with the increased threat ranges, the veterans that are much more meaningful than core or HoT ones took a little adjustment for sure.

> > But a couple days later it was cool and it certainly wasn't the kick the the crotch that HoT was after core.

>

> It's easy to say no straight answers were given when the questions were never straight to begin with. This discussion is more nuanced than just people who need to git gud claiming the mobs are overtuned. You only had to look at the very first response in the thread to see that:

>

> "PoF mob density is no worse than HoT. However, the aggro range on many PoF/LS4 mobs is far longer. The overall effect is that moving around without being harassed by every mob within a square mile of your position is significantly more difficult in these later maps. Personally, I can't stand it. I find it really irritating and wish they'd reduce the aggro range to the way it was in HoT." -Me

>

> You might have also missed this, a few posts ago:

>

> "Of course posts like "this is too hard please make it easier" don't really work, they are too general and offer very little value for a discussion, only heated debates between the "it's too hard, please make it easier" and the "it is too easy, please make it harder" crowds with some variations between the two. But a question that can be made is, should mobs in Path of Fire+ have their engagement distance reduced?" -maddoctor.2738

>

> In the same post he outlines his own testing which indicates that there was a significant increase in aggro range in going from HoT to PoF, possibly as much as doubling the aggro range. I honestly wasn't aware the difference was quite that huge, but it's always been very noticeable to me.

>

> In my opinion, it's annoying and no amount of "gittin' gud" is going to change that because it isn't killing the mobs or surviving them that is the problem. It's that the relative cost between being IC/OOC is much greater now that we have mounts. Previously, if you got stuck in combat it was only the difference between IC/OOC foot speed. Now it's the difference between IC foot speed and leaping away on your raptor! You really feel that! Combined with a greatly increased aggro range, you get to feel that a lot more often than you do in HoT content!

>

>

>

>

 

Agreed. How one goes about creating difficulty is as important as the difficulty itself. THe line between engaging/challenging and annoying is very fine.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> In the same post he outlines his own testing which indicates that there was a significant increase in aggro range in going from HoT to PoF, possibly as much as doubling the aggro range. I honestly wasn't aware the difference was quite that huge, but it's always been very noticeable to me.

 

I didn't know about the range either but I was reading a lot about it, but to my knowledge nobody bothered to actually do some testing. I was equally surprised when I couldn't hit a mob in Path of Fire with a range 900 skill, without engaging.

[voltaicbore.8012]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

> > 1. The fallen statue HP in Elon Riverlands is a good example of what I don't like. There's always a bunch of harpies hanging around there, and they're quite easy to deal with. They're just a pointless annoyance though, and IMO they add nothing (lore, immersion, combat challenge, etc.). They seem to be there purely to disrupt your ability to channel an HP or just take a look around at the environment.

> Actually their presence in terms of the worldbuilding makes perfect sense as across many areas of the PoF maps, cliffs in higher elevations in warmer areas have harpies. We see this in Desert Highlands, Elon, the front area of Desolation and in Vabbi. It makes just fine thematic sense.

> From a gameplay perspective you are right, there are there to interupt your channel of the commune. Mitigating this is simply part of getting the HP. It's functionally no different than the HP in the Sulfur flats of Desolation only the fact that the harpies are already there, versus spawned when you hit the HP. Hardly a big enough difference to get your back up about.

> From a lore perspective, I believe the harpies and their presence in the area is talked about in the original game.

>

 

I'll take another look at the area... someday. I don't mind the harpies around the MP by the springer heart, as it's clearly a nesting zone for them and managing that co-existence seems to be a well-established thing for people of the area. Same with the harpy-infested area around the Choya part of the Highlands map. I just don't recall seeing much indication of harpies being there for a reason other than "we need some mobs to hassle players... this is a higher elevation... so harpies! Yeah! Game design is my passion."

 

It wouldn't have taken much to satisfy me in this regard, either. Even if the HP text merely made some mention of "this once-blahblah-nice thing is now just a harpy nest", that would have been enough. But again, I'm working off of very shaky knowledge. I don't even remember what the HP says when you channel it, and I'm not aware of the lore you mentioned. I guess I should take a second look at it (as well as GW1, which I'm still playing through) to be sure.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> > > > Hahahahaha

> > > >

> > > > Those questions have been asked multiple times in different ways and not a straight answer has been given.

> > > Sure.... but then no straight questions have been given... there's been a ton of rhetoric on both sides.

> > > I'm just curious what people who are issuing the complaints are actually struggling with.

> > > Not the low-effort people complaining that they should be allowed to walk around maps and just enjoy the scenery, and not the people looking for free loot saying they should be able to harvest some of the more lucrative nodes without mitigating aggro...

> > > ..but people who actually enjoy playing video games for an engaging experience and still feel the mobs are overtund.

> > >

> > > It personally took me a couple days when I first hit PoF to learn how to properly handle the difference in AI behaviours. The chain aggro that comes with the increased threat ranges, the veterans that are much more meaningful than core or HoT ones took a little adjustment for sure.

> > > But a couple days later it was cool and it certainly wasn't the kick the the crotch that HoT was after core.

> >

> > It's easy to say no straight answers were given when the questions were never straight to begin with. This discussion is more nuanced than just people who need to git gud claiming the mobs are overtuned. You only had to look at the very first response in the thread to see that:

> >

> > "PoF mob density is no worse than HoT. However, the aggro range on many PoF/LS4 mobs is far longer. The overall effect is that moving around without being harassed by every mob within a square mile of your position is significantly more difficult in these later maps. Personally, I can't stand it. I find it really irritating and wish they'd reduce the aggro range to the way it was in HoT." -Me

> >

> > You might have also missed this, a few posts ago:

> >

> > "Of course posts like "this is too hard please make it easier" don't really work, they are too general and offer very little value for a discussion, only heated debates between the "it's too hard, please make it easier" and the "it is too easy, please make it harder" crowds with some variations between the two. But a question that can be made is, should mobs in Path of Fire+ have their engagement distance reduced?" -maddoctor.2738

> >

> > In the same post he outlines his own testing which indicates that there was a significant increase in aggro range in going from HoT to PoF, possibly as much as doubling the aggro range. I honestly wasn't aware the difference was quite that huge, but it's always been very noticeable to me.

> >

> > In my opinion, it's annoying and no amount of "gittin' gud" is going to change that because it isn't killing the mobs or surviving them that is the problem. It's that the relative cost between being IC/OOC is much greater now that we have mounts. Previously, if you got stuck in combat it was only the difference between IC/OOC foot speed. Now it's the difference between IC foot speed and leaping away on your raptor! You really feel that! Combined with a greatly increased aggro range, you get to feel that a lot more often than you do in HoT content!

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Agreed. How one goes about creating difficulty is as important as the difficulty itself. THe line between engaging/challenging and annoying is very fine.

 

I'm sure they were probably thinking...

 

Okay, we're giving you mounts. You can get around much easier than before and we don't want all these enemies to become little more than scenery in the game. Why don't we just increase the aggro range so you get hit a little more as you're flying past?

 

While that's perfectly sensible, I don't think they considered the impact on player perception. As I said before, there is now a greater difference between movement speed in-combat vs. out-of-combat due to the addition of mounts. Increasing aggro range to a level appropriate to hassle mounted players has the side-effect of locking unmounted players into combat much more frequently and for longer periods of time than in pre-PoF content. So now not only do I really want to get out of combat so I can mount up and get moving again, but I'm also finding myself stuck in combat more often because enemies aggro from further away whether I'm mounted or not.

 

While this is not specifically a complaint about difficulty, a reduction in aggro ranges to something more similar to HoT would likely go a long way toward improving quality of life for those who do struggle. So, while I disagree with some of the specific complaints being made here, arguing them back and forth is a waste of time as what I want is likely also what they want. However, to those who disagree that this is a problem requiring a solution, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

How would you feel about a reduction in aggro range to pre-PoF levels? Would this trivialize navigation in PoF? Has that been the result for you in HoT?

[battledrone.8315]

> @"The Boz.2038" said:

> All this time complaining in here could have been better spent learning how to craft a build.

 

why bother? how long, before i would have to change that too? and even IF i found a build , that CAN play, who says, that it is fun for me?

no, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

writing on a forum is NOT the same , as spending days in content, that i dont like

[Ashen.2907]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> > > > > Hahahahaha

> > > > >

> > > > > Those questions have been asked multiple times in different ways and not a straight answer has been given.

> > > > Sure.... but then no straight questions have been given... there's been a ton of rhetoric on both sides.

> > > > I'm just curious what people who are issuing the complaints are actually struggling with.

> > > > Not the low-effort people complaining that they should be allowed to walk around maps and just enjoy the scenery, and not the people looking for free loot saying they should be able to harvest some of the more lucrative nodes without mitigating aggro...

> > > > ..but people who actually enjoy playing video games for an engaging experience and still feel the mobs are overtund.

> > > >

> > > > It personally took me a couple days when I first hit PoF to learn how to properly handle the difference in AI behaviours. The chain aggro that comes with the increased threat ranges, the veterans that are much more meaningful than core or HoT ones took a little adjustment for sure.

> > > > But a couple days later it was cool and it certainly wasn't the kick the the crotch that HoT was after core.

> > >

> > > It's easy to say no straight answers were given when the questions were never straight to begin with. This discussion is more nuanced than just people who need to git gud claiming the mobs are overtuned. You only had to look at the very first response in the thread to see that:

> > >

> > > "PoF mob density is no worse than HoT. However, the aggro range on many PoF/LS4 mobs is far longer. The overall effect is that moving around without being harassed by every mob within a square mile of your position is significantly more difficult in these later maps. Personally, I can't stand it. I find it really irritating and wish they'd reduce the aggro range to the way it was in HoT." -Me

> > >

> > > You might have also missed this, a few posts ago:

> > >

> > > "Of course posts like "this is too hard please make it easier" don't really work, they are too general and offer very little value for a discussion, only heated debates between the "it's too hard, please make it easier" and the "it is too easy, please make it harder" crowds with some variations between the two. But a question that can be made is, should mobs in Path of Fire+ have their engagement distance reduced?" -maddoctor.2738

> > >

> > > In the same post he outlines his own testing which indicates that there was a significant increase in aggro range in going from HoT to PoF, possibly as much as doubling the aggro range. I honestly wasn't aware the difference was quite that huge, but it's always been very noticeable to me.

> > >

> > > In my opinion, it's annoying and no amount of "gittin' gud" is going to change that because it isn't killing the mobs or surviving them that is the problem. It's that the relative cost between being IC/OOC is much greater now that we have mounts. Previously, if you got stuck in combat it was only the difference between IC/OOC foot speed. Now it's the difference between IC foot speed and leaping away on your raptor! You really feel that! Combined with a greatly increased aggro range, you get to feel that a lot more often than you do in HoT content!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Agreed. How one goes about creating difficulty is as important as the difficulty itself. THe line between engaging/challenging and annoying is very fine.

>

> I'm sure they were probably thinking...

>

> Okay, we're giving you mounts. You can get around much easier than before and we don't want all these enemies to become little more than scenery in the game. Why don't we just increase the aggro range so you get hit a little more as you're flying past?

>

> While that's perfectly sensible, I don't think they considered the impact on player perception. As I said before, there is now a greater difference between movement speed in-combat vs. out-of-combat due to the addition of mounts. Increasing aggro range to a level appropriate to hassle mounted players has the side-effect of locking unmounted players into combat much more frequently and for longer periods of time than in pre-PoF content. So now not only do I really want to get out of combat so I can mount up and get moving again, but I'm also finding myself stuck in combat more often because enemies aggro from further away whether I'm mounted or not.

>

> While this is not specifically a complaint about difficulty, a reduction in aggro ranges to something more similar to HoT would likely go a long way toward improving quality of life for those who do struggle. So, while I disagree with some of the specific complaints being made here, arguing them back and forth is a waste of time as what I want is likely also what they want. However, to those who disagree that this is a problem requiring a solution, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

>

> How would you feel about a reduction in aggro range to pre-PoF levels? Would this trivialize navigation in PoF? Has that been the result for you in HoT?

 

A reduction in aggro range would go a long way toward improving things IMO. Ultimately when I am stuck in combat with largely inconsequential adds that keep coming in after I have actually completed the fight I was actually there for my first thought is not, "nice challenge from these sand eels that keep spawning," but rather, "goddammit I want to get out of combat so I can move on with my goals."

 

That said, I do think that a slight up-tune for the mobs, if the aggro range is reduced, would be appreciated (for me).