Discord / Hidden Tags / Closed Squads

[Sealamin.6549]

I have been playing WvW for around 8 Years and WvW is on a terrible down slide for the worse. More and more I am seeing hidden tags and closed squads with regular players unable to join unless they use Discord. I understand the need to use voice comms and have even owned and managed a TS server for WvW but this was for Guild battles and Fun nights, the server was there if people wanted to use it. I have seen far better commanders in the past than current ones and they used no voice coms and they earned the respect and following of other players by their commanding skills and success in battles. Forcing players to use Discord in normal game play like EB for instance or they can't join a squad points clearly to one person dominating the game for his own satisfaction , I mean it's not hard for serious players to follow a badge and support the squad and have fun. Using voice coms in a guild most definately helps with a better gaming experiance in WvW but enforcing a guild enviorment on players who just want to play openly on a public server you take the fun out of it and will eventualy kill the Server.

[God.2708]

I am actually unaware of any commander who consistently lead their forces to victory against actual opposition without voice comms.

 

edit: I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why a commander/guild group who expends time and energy to help each other and learn to play off each other should allow others to leech off of them without conceding at least some points of their own. Why should they want you in their group if you aren't even willing to do the barest minimum to indicate you want to be part of the group?

[ArchonWing.9480]

There's nothing to stop you from making your own squad.

 

Any reason you give on why you can't, is the same reason why people don't pugmand anymore.

[Elaice.7394]

By any chance, are you playing wvw on one of the german servers? If you don't see the need of joining voice, you're basically playing wvw differently than the people in such squads.

People who tag up can make their own rules. Stop qqing just because it is not your playstyle.

[Moxie.6209]

Not sure if troll or serious... but just in case serious:

 

The reason people insist on voice comms is so they can efficiently communicate their instructions when chatmanding just wont cut it. How do you communicate a feint? How do people communicate cd's or sync certain bomb attacks? These things are not easy to do when chatmanding.

 

As for hidden tags... guild raids dont usually want pugs to follow their tag to leech off them... they are usually no contribution to the group and actually a hindrance if they are facing a tough enemy that then just rallies off the downed pugs. Stealth is also a useful strategy in fight commanding and it is beyond infuriating if an enemy knows where you are because some puglet is running alongside your group with no stealth.

 

If you want to play without voice comms, thats fine. However, don't begrudge those commanders who insist on it - there is simply no argument that its a handicap to not join on voice comms.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Moxie made an interesting observation, the past few days have seen an uptick of threads that just seems to complain about WvW for being WvW. I think there is stuff in the OP here that are a bit interesting at least so I'll give it the favour of doubt and give it an honest response.

 

> @"Sealamin.6549" said:

> I have been playing WvW for around 8 Years and WvW is on a terrible down slide for the worse. More and more I am seeing hidden tags and closed squads with regular players unable to join unless they use Discord. I understand the need to use voice comms and have even owned and managed a TS server for WvW but this was for Guild battles and Fun nights, the server was there if people wanted to use it. I have seen far better commanders in the past than current ones and they used no voice coms and they earned the respect and following of other players by their commanding skills and success in battles.

 

If you've been playing for 8 years you should probably know the answer to your own questions already. There's action and reaction or behaviour begets behaviour, right? The only little attention given to the mode has been in favour of people looking to come in and consume whatever content is available.

 

Those players behave in a certain way. In the past there were enough of your friends around you that could be counted upon to support you, take initative or actively use what was laid out for them. There were other commanders who also had their own set of support that would let you just use what was made available. That extended to less experienced players. There were a sufficient amount of other players supporting the tag, taking initatives and being capable of silently utilizing what was at hand so commanders did not have to stress organization and use of coms. The norm then to now is very different, if a commander simply asks for the respect of supporting their effort put in you will see that few join or try and even fewer turn their mics on and interact.

 

The guilds are few, the players comming in are not team players, do not form new guilds and do not produce new commanders. That remaining guilds or commanders distance themselves a bit from that and meet the egoistic expecations comming in with some demands of their own is only natural. WvW is not PvE mentoring and treating it as such causes these kind of situations. In fact, the entire game used to be a social game, that was the casual definition (casual=social). These days the developer has made sure it isn't even social anymore and most people who still have some social circles here cling to them and that keeps them playing (for WvW it is in spite of the hoops and hurdles that are scattered about in form of fees, queues, locks and unlinking miscalcs).

 

There's zero surprise as to why the remaining creative players asks for more control over their populations (Alliances) and content for their circles of friends. The only way to turn this around is for the developer to get their heads out from their cheeks and direct content in favour of the content creators. Keep in mind that many of the old commanders that earnt respect and following are most likely still around in some capacity but are not tagging up under existing conditions or share their content as they are no longer showed respect and the following has been replaced by swarms of anonymous, faceless solo-players who queue up maps, turn servers full and just expect to be fed without helping out.

 

In fact, "Where are the old commanders?" is a far less interesting question than "Where are the new guilds?" or new commanders that actually commands to earn respect and following. The developer has made sure that there is no reason for new guilds to be born or the commanders they in turn birth. The old commanders may very well be the same people who now only go through the motions or are distancing themselves in various ways because they are not being given any reason to behave any differently by the developer either.

 

As always, the players WvW needs do not sit in Drizzlewood coast. They sit in Alterac Valley, Cydoriil, Lowsec/Nullsec, Calpheon etc. Those players, same as the existing core population in WvW, are interested in actual WvW gameplay like roaming, havoc (attack, defense, focus), raiding, skirmishing, GvG, BvB and the like. The content that exists in WvW and that also exists in their games but is arguably better here (or could be).

 

[Urelementar.6120]

Once you get used to play with decent players, it can be quite depressing watching some people play. If you are on voice coms you can at least yell at them to use some skills.

[Veprovina.4876]

Oh wow, hidden commanders and discord is now the problem?

There's a reason Commanders use discord . It's because when they don't, people scatter around like headless chickens and die to enemy bombs.

Every public commander i've seen doesn't force anyone to use the Discord or TS server.

But hidden commander tags are there because they're probably leading their guild, hence requiring to pull off synced attacks, clenses and stirps and whatnot, so positioning yourself on the battlefield, while typing commands into the chat would be extremely inefficitent don't you think. That's why they use discord or TS. And since the tags are hidden, it's to prevent someone else from randomly joining the raid, then not following commands, and either dying or getting everyone else in trouble (like when you stealth, but that 1 guy just has to go and attack before you're in position). If you DO join a hidden commander, join a discord, it's that simple.

[lare.5129]

as for me current state is ok

I don't join tag anyway. I don't want be one of person who give +1 pips for comm.

Second - I don't see any reason and fun voice for be, I don't understand 99% sound in English.

So up yours tag of follow and don't give free pips.

 

If tag change map I never follow: I don't like jump on maps each hour.

[Dawdler.8521]

I dont mind that they run hidden tag with discord invites only. That's their choice - I just dont want to then hear them fucking complain about it in map chat that "everyone get on tag" (when they literally dont have it shown) because they keep wiping to the blue tagged enemy commander with an entire border on it. That seems to happen *alot*.

 

No, what I see is the awful inefficency of it. They can be hidden, they can fight a zerg on the left side of the border. Great. They're having fun. That's pretty much the point of playing WvW. Problem is that *I have no idea where they are when I havoc on the right side of the border*. If they fight the zerg at bay, I want to hit hills. But if I have no idea they are even inside bay.

 

When I tag up as a shitty, non-discord, non-meta roaming/havoc/scout/fun-because-literally-no-one-is-on-the-border commander I generally do it out of the courtesy to *everyone*, regardless of whether they want to follow, leech or just be aware I am there doing my stuff. Many times you can see the immediete response and how effective even the most terrible tag is. A border that is *dominated* by the small enemy groups, inactive friendlies that always fight "outmanned" suddenly flip completely. We failed to defend a T3 tower against like 10 enemies while calling for help over 10m... then you tag up after to cap a T0 tower and you can literally zoom in on the minimap and see green dots coming out from every angle like flies to a pile of dung then suddenly you have 10+ on you. What was once a completely silent border - other than your text in chat calling for help - suddenly turns into everyone calling out enemies *for you*. We defend. We cap. And the commander never said a peep.

 

Of course until one of the "good" commanders descend upon the border and demand everyone not on their tag leave because they're creating a 70+ man queues.

 

Can such a roamer tag fight an organized 50+ zerg? No. That's not really the purpose of it, nor within it's capabilities. But for some reason that's usually still seen as *your* failure to command because you where tagged and the benchmark is wiping enemy zergs, but when the "good" commanders demand roamers to do something because they dont want to bring the entire zerg to do it that's perfectly fine and expected, they're entitled to not send their zerg to do a roamers work. I've never seen someone say to a blue tag "lol if you want that fucking dolly tag off and go kill it yourself".

 

But I digress.

 

This is just a rant.

 

At the end of the day, commanders are just humans like everybody else (at least I think they are?). There are some I like, some I dislike and there are some I would never follow. Them being hidden and on discord only doesnt really change that.

[PrinceValentine.9320]

I usually play with a pug squad in SoS, and let me tell you this, we have been defeating enemies coordinated guilds over and over. This squad doesn't even require their members to run meta classes. Somethimes, I play on my spirit ranger and they don't give a s*** as long as I can deliver. They don't have any complaints and I don't have one myself. And this squad doesn't move like a school of fish that ordinary squad does. We attack from all sides of the enemy zerg.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

because half of the "coordinated guilds" are plain newbies and need at least 1 year to become a serious guild group. @"PrinceValentine.9320" also u just describe a plain cloud... every serious zerg group just either ignores, sustains or disengages. clouding works if "zergs" contain too many newbies or bad sets. plus the clouds these days sometimes even outnumber the zergs.

 

i also notice too many hidden tag runs lately. makes it very hard for pugs, even if u know your sh*t, to get content. hidden groups only work against uncoordinated enemies, as they usually aren't bigger then ~30ish, but can beat even bigger groups.

 

hidden tags are sadly necessary. pugs, especially those on ranger/thief etc often run with pets, minis, golem runes, mounted up or other crap inside or nearby a stealthing guildgroup.... and mess up a guild groups stealth. if u reveal a stealth push, it'll just fail. this is the reason for closed groups and further for hidden tags.

 

it's needed only bc many people refuse to learn Wvw and don't contribute, rather try to make the experience worse for everyone. there's clowns who fake-tag in the same color and reveal your group by throwing siege or mess up blasting etc.

 

also yeah, groups on voice are easily 500% more effective in fights at least. opentags only work with big numbers and ideally experienced players on good pugclasses, who also know what they do without commands.

__

we're currently (t3 EU atm) this matchup is pure chaos. two hardcore ppt servers without serious fighting groups 24/7 zergsize clouds of them. it's just boring to fight that.

[PrinceValentine.9320]

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

> because half of the "coordinated guilds" are plain newbies and need at least 1 year to become a serious guild group. @"PrinceValentine.9320" also u just describe a plain cloud... every serious zerg group just either ignores, sustains or disengages. clouding works if "zergs" contain too many newbies or bad sets. plus the clouds these days sometimes even outnumber the zergs.

>

> i also notice too many hidden tag runs lately. makes it very hard for pugs, even if u know your kitten, to get content. hidden groups only work against uncoordinated enemies, as they usually aren't bigger then ~30ish, but can beat even bigger groups.

>

> hidden tags are sadly necessary. pugs, especially those on ranger/thief etc often run with pets, minis, golem runes, mounted up or other kitten inside or nearby a stealthing guildgroup.... and mess up a guild groups stealth. if u reveal a stealth push, it'll just fail. this is the reason for closed groups and further for hidden tags.

>

> it's needed only bc many people refuse to learn Wvw and don't contribute, rather try to make the experience worse for everyone. there's clowns who fake-tag in the same color and reveal your group by throwing siege or mess up blasting etc.

>

> also yeah, groups on voice are easily 500% more effective in fights at least. opentags only work with big numbers and ideally experienced players on good pugclasses, who also know what they do without commands.

> __

> we're currently (t3 EU atm) this matchup is pure chaos. two hardcore ppt servers without serious fighting groups 24/7 zergsize clouds of them. it's just boring to fight that.

 

SoS is currently dominating on T2 NA. This is not a tier for inexperienced zergs, they will be annihilated here really fast.

[Zikory.6871]

This post is why I prefer a closed tag. I care not for other peoples entitlement. Conform to our playstyle or follow someone else, your enjoyment takes no precedence over the guildmates and friends that have supported the group over the years.

 

>As for hidden tags... guild raids don't usually want pugs to follow their tag to leech off them...

Not really "leech" but if you find good outnumbered fights, you don't want 20+ pugs showing up clouding a group you were already able to fight. Hiding the tag can give you a few fights before everyone zeros in on the OJs.

 

"Why is Firebrand not that popular in WvW" - Because playing support for random pugs that "play however I want" is extremely frustrating, especially for new Firebrands that still think its there job to save everyone.

[cobbah.3102]

Hmm the game is as broken af these days to say skill is involved is ludicrous ,depends on meta and comps and 3rd party progs ,lag is the mind killer also ,broken toons abound and still nothing is done to make adjustments to this toxic game mode .

[Chaba.5410]

> @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> I usually play with a pug squad in SoS, and let me tell you this, we have been defeating enemies coordinated guilds over and over. This squad doesn't even require their members to run meta classes. Somethimes, I play on my spirit ranger and they don't give a s*** as long as I can deliver. They don't have any complaints and I don't have one myself. And this squad doesn't move like a school of fish that ordinary squad does. We attack from all sides of the enemy zerg.

 

Yes that's easy to do when your public tagged zerg of 50 players runs over a private tagged guild of 15-20. At the end of the day, wvw is a numbers game and always has been which is why the GvG format was heavily used by guilds to determine skillfulness, something that can only be compared truly with everything else being equal.

 

Easily winning fights with numbers can get boring fast and one of the primary causes of players quitting, which is the only real truth that players still around from 8 years ago know.

[SwankyMutt.9521]

> @"Zikory.6871" said:

> This post is why I prefer a closed tag. I care not for other peoples entitlement. Conform to our playstyle or follow someone else, your enjoyment takes no precedence over the guildmates and friends that have supported the group over the years.

>

> >As for hidden tags... guild raids don't usually want pugs to follow their tag to leech off them...

> Not really "leech" but if you find good outnumbered fights, you don't want 20+ pugs showing up clouding a group you were already able to fight. Hiding the tag can give you a few fights before everyone zeros in on the OJs.

>

> "Why is Firebrand not that popular in WvW" - Because playing support for random pugs that "play however I want" is extremely frustrating, especially for new Firebrands that still think its there job to save everyone.

 

^ This. There's another post going on about paying commanders and it is literally the same issue. 'We don't have tags. Everyone is using private tags now. I want, I want I want.'

 

> @"SwankyMutt.9521" said:

> However, if you honestly want to encourage people to tag or drive then just be appreciative or helpful. I've seen an influx of posts complaining about commanders or private tags and the such. Want to change that, do these things:

>

> * **Don't be a jerk** in Map/Team chat. Be supportive or offer **CONSTRUCTIVE** criticism privately to the tag. That's the quickest way to discourage a tag who is having an off night or even one who is just now learning.

> * **Get on Comms.** and be willing to **bring something helpful/useful** to the group if you have that option. Ask the Commander what is needed. Yeah playing a condi troll druid is fun and completely stupid, but when I look to join a group or my guild forms up, I'm rolling onto something that's helpful. We want to have fun and working together is how we have fun because it can **generally** lead to a higher rate of success.

> * Be willing to **FOLLOW**. Just because you don't recognize the name, maybe go check them out. All ways that the WvW community can try and support and encourage those that do want to pop a tag. It was touched on before about commanders and their 'core' group. My guild runs small generally and there have been times attempts were made to rally defenses. We would end up with a handful of comp'd toons on discord and the rest of our group was roamy characters some of which are doing their own thing. There is no way we would be successful against a group and we weren't.

>

> All things you can do to help a tag be more successful and the more successful they are the more likely they will open tag again that don't straight up require payments. This is honestly however a position the WvW community has put themselves into over time. We don't work well with one another (outside of our select circles) anymore. We are judgmental and harsh to new players or players who need help learning the game mode. We are entitled and want to play what we want how we want and nobody is making me get on comms. Then we complain about not having tags or not winning fights. I've watched entire guilds/servers groups stand by and watch T3 objectives be taken just to prove a point to the other server about how server x was nothing without their group. The rest of that pairing was toxic and nothing got done. Very few open tags were seen during that pairing.

>

> **TLDR** Want to encourage commanders? Don't be a jerk. Be supportive. Be helpful. Be constructive. Get on comms. Work together. If the group wins or has fun, the commander will be more willing in the future to do more. If the server is toxic or uncooperative no amount of gold will make the commander continue tagging for an extended amount of time.

 

Granted the 'We' is as a whole, not specific individuals before anyone gets super defensive. However, it is the same idea. Want to see more open tags, maybe the server should change how they look at those groups. Why should I bother having my group open tagged when we catch nothing but slack if we play differently? Maybe we don't want 15 rangers in the group and don't want to deal with people being salty over it? Or if we go to an objective that you don't agree with? Or we didn't respond to your call out for a camp while we were defending something different?

 

Also considering the amount of match manipulation by servers as they tank or hold back so they don't fight certain servers, the huge gaps in coverage, paired server population, PPT vs PPK score percentages, etc. your server's tier isn't really something to flaunt as an end all be all.

 

For instance SoS is dominating T2, yeah. They also have the highest population during OCX and SEA. BG is the only one close to that activity and let's be honest they have coverage at most times anyway. You have numbers and can afford to have a not entirely comp'd group and farm that score over night. There's nothing wrong with that, that's what people on that server enjoy. Take a different server like FA, they have one of the highest PPk% at 27% right now (NA that is, not sure on EU) . That's an entirely different playstyle. They focus on fighting/PPK and with potentially smaller numbers rely on their comp more. Still nothing wrong with that either, they enjoy fighting. However if they are gonna catch flak for their playstyle, have people hinder their fun well why not private/close tag/require comms? That is their choice, just as it is your choice to bring a character that doesn't offer anything to their group synergy/playstyle and not work together or support/encourage them.

[kash.9213]

I don't mind hidden tags but people read map and chat alerts and will end up right there anyway, guilds and squads are just going to have to be quick to reposition and blast if they don't want anyone stepping on circles. Pubs aren't hurting guild raids and they aren't leeching, those commanders and their core share the map and they can fuck off to Desert if they don't want people around, but then there wouldn't be pubs to blame when they wipe over and over.

[PrinceValentine.9320]

> For instance SoS is dominating T2, yeah. They also have the highest population during OCX and SEA. BG is the only one close to that activity and let's be honest they have coverage at most times anyway. You have numbers and can afford to have a not entirely comp'd group and farm that score over night. There's nothing wrong with that, that's what people on that server enjoy. Take a different server like FA, they have one of the highest PPk% at 27% right now (NA that is, not sure on EU) . That's an entirely different playstyle. They focus on fighting/PPK and with potentially smaller numbers rely on their comp more. Still nothing wrong with that either, they enjoy fighting. However if they are gonna catch flak for their playstyle, have people hinder their fun well why not private/close tag/require comms? That is their choice, just as it is your choice to bring a character that doesn't offer anything to their group synergy/playstyle and not work together or support/encourage them.

 

FA, has the worst guilds when it comes to open-field fights. They are one of the most boring servers to fight. Btw, I main Firebrand most of the time, but since the squad I am currently enjoying running with, has a scattered style of attacking the enemy, bunker shortbow ranger is possibly the best to bring.

[PrinceValentine.9320]

Closed squads are there because they are too selfish to share their boons/stab while non-members practically can share their boons to them. Their commanders will spam on chat to follow them so they can get supply and once they get wiped they'll start crying on chat. They are the most annoying groups in WvW. Once I get to a server plagued with these kinds of squads, I transfer immediately.

[anonymous.7812]

> @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> FA, has the worst guilds when it comes to open-field fights. They are one of the most boring servers to fight. Btw, I main Firebrand most of the time, but since the squad I am currently enjoying running with, has a scattered style of attacking the enemy, bunker shortbow ranger is possibly the best to bring.

 

So you're out there dominating FA guilds on SoS with a bunker SB ranger.

 

Are you playing late SEA/OCX/EU or something when there's 3 people playing?

[Nythrilyn.2146]

> @"anonymous.7812" said:

 

> Are you playing late SEA/OCX/EU or something when there's 3 people playing?

 

I LOL'd waaay too much @ this ahahaahaha. Thanks, you made my night lmao

 

[Skadii.3591]

 

> @"anonymous.7812" said:

> > @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> > FA, has the worst guilds when it comes to open-field fights. They are one of the most boring servers to fight. Btw, I main Firebrand most of the time, but since the squad I am currently enjoying running with, has a scattered style of attacking the enemy, bunker shortbow ranger is possibly the best to bring.

>

> So you're out there dominating FA guilds on SoS with a bunker SB ranger.

>

> Are you playing late SEA/OCX/EU or something when there's 3 people playing?

 

Most likely running during OCX/SEA time. Our OCX generally runs one giant comped group and one giant pug tag with very little competition. This week is also a bad representation of normal wvw with the holidays.

[Baldrick.8967]

Hidden tags and closed squads just help the game mode die faster.

Players who might come to try out wvw enter, see nothing going on, no chat, no tags, nothing really changing hands and assume no one is there and go back to pve land never to return. You're basically starving the mode of fresh meat.

'I tried it a few times but there was never anyone there' is something I have heard so often.

Yes, I understand the reasoning of those that like hidden tags and closed squads and discord/TS only groups etc and short term it's much more efficient (and more fun for those in the squad) but longer term it's not helping the game mode.

Kinda reminds me of the pvp brigade in another game who wouldn't fight each other but spent all the time going around killing lower level players and preventing groups from doing dungeons and then started moaning when there was hardly anyone still playing...

 

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Baldrick.8967" said:

> Hidden tags and closed squads just help the game mode die faster.

> Players who might come to try out wvw enter, see nothing going on, no chat, no tags, nothing really changing hands and assume no one is there and go back to pve land never to return. You're basically starving the mode of fresh meat.

> 'I tried it a few times but there was never anyone there' is something I have heard so often.

> Yes, I understand the reasoning of those that like hidden tags and closed squads and discord/TS only groups etc and short term it's much more efficient (and more fun for those in the squad) but longer term it's not helping the game mode.

> Kinda reminds me of the pvp brigade in another game who wouldn't fight each other but spent all the time going around killing lower level players and preventing groups from doing dungeons and then started moaning when there was hardly anyone still playing...

>

 

Even closed "open" map zerg tags that either hide their tags or close squad always and constantly advertise discord info in map chat and ask anyone wishing to join PM the commander with what ever they request.