Why can mesmers insta-down people?

[Tyaen.5148]

> @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > same way engineers can CC you to death =D

>

> How exactly tha works? I cannot remember the last time a engineer actually beat me. Even less by CC'ing me to death.

 

Build heat, invis, rifle 4, Rifle 2, engage Photon forge, Holographic Shockwave, Prime Lightbeam elite.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> Yea superiority complex isnt the main reason mes has been pretty much like this in wvw since release.

 

I disagree with you and I'll explain why in my next portion of the post

 

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > @mulzi.8273 said:

> > > on a related note, thank you for posting the videos and whatnot. this morning i've run across at least 8 different kiddies who have to use the latest troll/cheese mesmer build due to their lack of success with any legitimate builds/classes.

> >

> > To be fair, a lot of mesmers been running that setup ever since Superiority Complex was added to the game... In fact, even though I am a mesmer main myself, back at that time I did complain that I thought Superiority Complex was a overtuned trait and that I shouldn't be allowed to "oneshot" (More like one-combo in the case of mesmer) a full Trailblazer Necro simply because he wasn't running Unholy Sanctuary (Keep in mind that a Full Trailblazer Necro have 26k HP and 3,2k Armor)... The end result was me being shot down by everyone and their mother calling me a idiot, saying I was overreacting, and that people not being able to dodge a mesmer burst need to l2p.

> >

> > So now, unless you can press a stunbreaker and dodge in half a second after you are stuned by Confounding Suggestions, you better have a Invulnerability trait or accept that people decided that this should be a thing.

>

> Superiority complex is quite strong as a trait, but its not what makes this burst possible. I'm not saying it shouldn't be looked at, but its not the reason mesmers can pull this off, so if you want to nerf the ability to do this combo look elsewhere for nerfs

 

Superiority Complex is what is allowing mesmer to insta down someone wearing a full tank setup. Yes, I've always been able to insta down another Glass or someone light on defenses, but I would never Insta Down someone with 26k HP and 3,2k Armor before Superiority Complex. Harmonious Mantras bonus was nowhere close to what Superiority Complex gives in terms of burst potential and I did ran Power Spike HM mesmer myself prior HoT.

 

I may be a bit biased by the fact that I hate the "thief style", but I'd give away Superity Complex for old Healing Mantra and Old Mender's Purity back because I find it much more fun to be able to remain longer in a fight than insta down someone in half a second or tuck my tail and run if I fail to do so.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @Inoki.6048 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @Inoki.6048 said:

> > > Let's face it - this expansion is a total failure.

> > >

> > > Mesmers that are inescapable - can port 9 times in a row and stealth almost as much as thieves while stealth should remain primarily a thief mechanic, perform a constant daze combo that is impossible to counter since during daze all skills are non-functional;

> >

> > You can like...stunbreak. If you were caught off guard, that's something else entirely. But if you were aware and ready for it like you should always be in WvW ideally...you can stunbreak.

>

> if I could I wouldn't mention it, but I do recall hitting that stun break yet still remain dazed. How do you explain that? Bug? Intent?

 

If you're dazed you can still dodge. The trait that turns dazes to stun has a 5 sec CD so you can't be stun chained.

 

What they could have done is stun you with Mantra of Distraction on the opening burst, then after your stunbreak, immediately daze you with f3 shatter. Which means they read you and you got outplayed unfortunately.

[Artaz.3819]

#1 this is not a one-shot (look at the video). This is a high combo burst of many damaging abilities used in a short time span. At best, this can be done roughly every 12s. In actuality, this is once every 30s against a low-skill, unaware or low health player (stealth opener) and leaves the Mesmer in a playstyle that MUST stealth/reset (typically with mantra recharges to recast) because they have no other options to do any actual reasonable pressure damage to finish - sure they can immobilize a single target once every 12s too...wow.

 

#2 this is a different issue than Deadeye with Death's Judgment (and a mark used on some random object/ambient creature) . Mesmer's burst is much more closely aligned to the burst potential of Elementalist with Scepter combo landing along with Fresh Air/Utilities. So stop comparing it to Deadeye's DJ which is actually a one-shot possible (but not likely, but still worthy of looking at since it can be used at least 2-3 times in a row which could be a problem).

 

#3 Mirage (spec line) has absolutely nothing to do with the one-shot so Mirage specifically is not the issue. Chrono is actually far superior still because a timed F5 just before the big hit allows the combo to happen a second time (with timing) and provides the critical superspeed to shatter of illusions to ensure the poor illusion pathing reduces the burst potential. Notice in the videos that AI shatters pathing is not shown as a problem and the Mesmer is always with a group of others (and only once is the focused target) yet still is barely surviving at some points (backing off to recharge mantras and no enemy bothers to engage the mesmer during). Also note, the video is a voice chat/high communication havoc (guild) team with target calls to ensure the targets go down...basically ignores the other ~4 teammates helping to finish targets and keeping the mesmer up - if you watch closely, that Ele tank/healing/CC team member is the real winner.

 

#4 The true problem is GS 2 (Mirror Blade). It was buffed back in July 2016 and has been to go-to weapon for dueling WvW/PvP ever since outside of Chrono condi builds for mesmer. That's because it does a huge damage spike (decently high damage coefficient), unblockable, adds Might boon, causes Vulnerability, and meets the less than 12s cooldown criteria by being 8s. Note, GS 3 (Mind Stab) has the magical 12s cooldown alignment and is basically instant cast. Mindwrack F1 is 12s cooldown. Sword 3 mainhand (immobilize swap) is also 12s. Not shown in video but also often used, Blurred Frenzy is 12s cooldown. You see a pattern yet? Do your burst, jerk around (aka retreat) for 10-11s, do it again. F5 Continuum Split at least allows you to do it twice.

 

TL;DR There is nothing new to this mesmer burst combo. The increased perception that Mirage/Mesmer is now a new burst roaming build is untrue. The build has been around for over a year and culprit is not Mirage POF power creep. It's greatsword...

 

That being said, nerfing mesmer greatsword will just force dedicated mesmers back to condi focus which is the current meta problem discussion (higher priority and needs to really be the focus balance fix first).

[mulzi.8273]

 

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

 

> What they could have done is stun you with Mantra of Distraction on the opening burst, then after your stunbreak, immediately daze you with f3 shatter. Which means they read you and you got outplayed unfortunately.

 

I'm seeing this alot lately, where they open with the elite well, which forces you to use a stun break (if you don't, your dead). Once you use that stun break, they nail you with their cheese rotation with the daze in there. At least the last 4 mesmers i fought did this, so i figure its the new shiney thing, as they were different mesmers on different servers.

[primatos.5413]

Insta kill is reserved to the npcs @ the spawn so i hope anet will fix all the crap going round out there in wvw asap ...

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @mulzi.8273 said:

>

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

>

> > What they could have done is stun you with Mantra of Distraction on the opening burst, then after your stunbreak, immediately daze you with f3 shatter. Which means they read you and you got outplayed unfortunately.

>

> I'm seeing this alot lately, where they open with the elite well, which forces you to use a stun break (if you don't, your dead). Once you use that stun break, they nail you with their cheese rotation with the daze in there. At least the last 4 mesmers i fought did this, so i figure its the new shiney thing, as they were different mesmers on different servers.

 

Bring 2 stun breaks or stability. There, now the Mesmer is useless.

 

Or dodge the elite well, since it is slow to cast and often gets F5'd which makes it even more obvious.

 

Idk I'm not a mesmer main, at least not since the times they were truly monstrous before HoT. But that little bit of play time with mesmer was enough to learn how power shatter GS works and how to destroy it.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @Galmac.4680 said:

> Yep, after Scrouge, nerf all other classes to the same level (as scrouge), then nobody can complain anymore. :)

 

not really how Anet works, and scourge is easy to play due how condition stack is ment to work on pve sponges, scourge would be really good and skilled if was similair to curses necros putting hexes with condis and debuffing but Anet went alll kitten and made every spam vs spam :skull:

 

When a game is about stack n spam......

[Vambrace.8675]

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > So far I am seeing the same defense for this Mesmer build as for stealth/Sniper DE.

> >

> > This defense is, a player or small group of players tailoring their entire WvW experience around avoiding 2 specific builds...common theme being these builds can one shot a player, stealth and reset to do it again relatively shortly after.

> >

> > I feel like maybe that logic deserves some more thought.

>

> Here's some ez logic: balance is not done on a WvW small scale fight level :) also unlike PvP, ranged and stealth kiting are practically rewarded in WvW since there's no point to stand on.

>

> People have been using builds that hit hard and reset forever, it's called thief and just because you and some others don't like it doesn't mean it gets deleted from the game.

>

> Can power mesmers and thieves contribute in a zerg very well? No? Then dominating small scale fights is all they really have. That's really the best "balance" and "logic" to the situation.

 

Well you looked at the logic and came back with angry justification...but you did look at it.

 

Just because a thing has existed for days or years does not make it a good thing.

[Aeolus.3615]

@BeepBoopBop.5403, that's a placebo/excuse to pretend game or mesmer itself is balanced...

 

When some class end's doing something extermelly good and easy, but not fit on other part of the game, that's not a good thing, nor are trade-off for that class.

 

Those are not what trade-off are and it is called bad design.

 

And if u notice ELITE traits are nothign less than ANet cover "balance" with broken gimmicks.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> @BeepBoopBop.5403, that's a placebo/excuse to pretend game or mesmer itself is balanced...

>

> When some class end's doing something extermelly good and easy, but not fit on other part of the game, that's not a good thing, nor are trade-off for that class.

>

> Those are not what trade-off are and it is called bad design.

>

> And if u notice ELITE traits are nothign less than ANet cover "balance" with broken gimmicks.

 

Notice how I put balance and logic in quotes. In no way do I think small scale fighting is balanced. WvW in itself is not balanced. But I like to think that it's a goal to have each profession good at SOMETHING in WvW.

 

Either way you guys are complaining to the same people that thought trapper thief was OK til it solo'd a raid or something. Good luck.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > > So far I am seeing the same defense for this Mesmer build as for stealth/Sniper DE.

> > >

> > > This defense is, a player or small group of players tailoring their entire WvW experience around avoiding 2 specific builds...common theme being these builds can one shot a player, stealth and reset to do it again relatively shortly after.

> > >

> > > I feel like maybe that logic deserves some more thought.

> >

> > Here's some ez logic: balance is not done on a WvW small scale fight level :) also unlike PvP, ranged and stealth kiting are practically rewarded in WvW since there's no point to stand on.

> >

> > People have been using builds that hit hard and reset forever, it's called thief and just because you and some others don't like it doesn't mean it gets deleted from the game.

> >

> > Can power mesmers and thieves contribute in a zerg very well? No? Then dominating small scale fights is all they really have. That's really the best "balance" and "logic" to the situation.

>

> Well you looked at the logic and came back with angry justification...but you did look at it.

>

> Just because a thing has existed for days or years does not make it a good thing.

 

Yeah totally bro, like it made sense to nerf endure pain in PvP even though it was fine for years just because spellbreaker came out.

 

Just because you're having trouble with a build many people L2P'D around doesn't mean we all are.

[Artaz.3819]

Side note, fkitten these formatting things on this forum. lol

 

I still have no idea how that text went all capitalized.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403, that's a placebo/excuse to pretend game or mesmer itself is balanced...

> >

> > When some class end's doing something extermelly good and easy, but not fit on other part of the game, that's not a good thing, nor are trade-off for that class.

> >

> > Those are not what trade-off are and it is called bad design.

> >

> > And if u notice ELITE traits are nothign less than ANet cover "balance" with broken gimmicks.

>

> Notice how I put balance and logic in quotes. In no way do I think small scale fighting is balanced. WvW in itself is not balanced. But I like to think that it's a goal to have each profession good at SOMETHING in WvW.

>

> Either way you guys are complaining to the same people that thought trapper thief was OK til it solo'd a raid or something. Good luck.

 

That's the dev's thinking, trap thief was OK untill dev's saw it soling on pve...

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @Artaz.3819 said:

> Side note, fkitten these formatting things on this forum. lol

>

> I still have no idea how that text went all capitalized.

 

Don’t use the pound symbol as that’s used for headings.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @EvilSardine.9635 said:

>

> > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated.

>

>

> A.) See if a mesmer is on the opposing team

> B.) Be ready to react when you see power lock.

> C.) Keep camera on a swivel to see if mesmer is approaching from behind or the side.

> D.) Congrats you now have the advantage.

>

>

 

What if the opposing team has 10 of everything?

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @LetoII.3782 said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @EvilSardine.9635 said:

> >

> > > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated.

> >

> >

> > A.) See if a mesmer is on the opposing team

> > B.) Be ready to react when you see power lock.

> > C.) Keep camera on a swivel to see if mesmer is approaching from behind or the side.

> > D.) Congrats you now have the advantage.

> >

> >

>

> What if the opposing team has 10 of everything?

 

Get a bigger swivel?

[Lionwait.4815]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @EvilSardine.9635 said:

>

> > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated.

>

>

> A.) See if a mesmer is on the opposing team

> B.) Be ready to react when you see power lock.

> C.) Keep camera on a swivel to see if mesmer is approaching from behind or the side.

> D.) Congrats you now have the advantage.

>

>

 

You forgot!

E ) The sky is the limit!......ah wait that is just you flat on you're back

[czerwoni.9563]

what about thief

 

Elite

This skill is a combo. You’ll be able to deliver three strikes in quick succession to your enemies, with the final skill granting the daredevil access to the first skill-based finisher available to players.

Combo Skill 1—Impact Strike: Strike your enemy and daze them.

Combo Skill 2—Uppercut: Deal a heavy blow with your fist, sending enemies flying in place (they do not move any distance).

Combo Skill 3—Finishing Blow: Deal a downward strike on your foe. Downed enemies struck with this ability are finished.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > > @BeepBoopBop.5403, that's a placebo/excuse to pretend game or mesmer itself is balanced...

> > >

> > > When some class end's doing something extermelly good and easy, but not fit on other part of the game, that's not a good thing, nor are trade-off for that class.

> > >

> > > Those are not what trade-off are and it is called bad design.

> > >

> > > And if u notice ELITE traits are nothign less than ANet cover "balance" with broken gimmicks.

> >

> > Notice how I put balance and logic in quotes. In no way do I think small scale fighting is balanced. WvW in itself is not balanced. But I like to think that it's a goal to have each profession good at SOMETHING in WvW.

> >

> > Either way you guys are complaining to the same people that thought trapper thief was OK til it solo'd a raid or something. Good luck.

>

> That's the dev's thinking, trap thief was OK untill dev's saw it soling on pve...

 

I know, I said you guys are complaining to the same people that thought trapper thief was ok. People = devs = Anet

[sephiroth.4217]

> @Roxanne.6140 said:

> I told you. If not me, someone else will complain. Specs that one-shot people from stealth make roaming kitten.

 

What makes roaming kitten is that while you solo take a camp, someone will watch you until the goon squad of 8 rock up to gank you. You go to take a sentry and there is AC spam on it from 1 guy while 2 others come out to fight but only under the AC fire. You have a decent fight against a few people but the moment one goes down, the rest glide away.

 

I don't get 1 shot by these builds unless I'm in berserker zerger gear so I can assume these complaints are from people who are set up to zerg and slaughter tower lords.

[Clownmug.8357]

This isn't exclusive to Mesmer. Doesn't matter what profession you play really, if someone else can react and input skills faster than you, they almost always win. Not much you can do about since the devs don't seem to like to anything that's slow and methodical, just instant gratification. Too much twitch gameplay for an mmo in my opinion.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @LetoII.3782 said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @EvilSardine.9635 said:

> >

> > > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated.

> >

> >

> > A.) See if a mesmer is on the opposing team

> > B.) Be ready to react when you see power lock.

> > C.) Keep camera on a swivel to see if mesmer is approaching from behind or the side.

> > D.) Congrats you now have the advantage.

> >

> >

>

> What if the opposing team has 10 of everything?

 

[Gift of Salt]

[potatocity.6470]

> @xDudisx.5914 said:

> With spellbreakers and scourges running around I think we have bigger problems than mesmers in wvw. I have never been one shot by a mesmer on wvw. If someone run full zerker schoolar mesmer they would still need to waste 2/3 utilities to stealth, teleport to melee range and produce 3 clones to shatter on you. If that fails they are dead.

 

Necros are the least concern anyone should have about wvw. i dont even play necro and i feel bad for them. nerf,after nerf after ,nerf but yet you have the immortal warrior running around taking on 5 people at once with little to know problem and anets love child theif that they have yet to hot fix the one shot dead eye mechanics . with out a doubt main issue at hand is spell broken

[Burnfall.9573]

After 5 year of making a case against thief counterpart:, i'm relieved that many more are witnessing mesmer attribute to the obsoletion of competitive scenary in wvw+pvp.

 

Mesmer, unlike its counterpart thief which makes 1 shotting scene more prevelant, has cleverly gone under the radar for some times. Why? Mesmer havs more builds variety unlike thief having very few.

 

Like thief: mesmer 1 shotting is not new: it has existed many years ago. Now with more memsers being aware of 1 shotting builds: it has become the builds of choice over variety builds.

 

To remedy mesmer 1 shotting is to to completely redesign the class along side thief. Both thief and mesmer are design to rule all meta's and that is intollarable and unaceptable for the well being of pvp+wvw.

 

Something most be done for the health of wvw+pvp.

 

It's either now or never!!