EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > **Was intended.** > > Now who's nitpicking? > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing". > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault. > > 1. That's not nitpicking, that's reading comprehension 2. There's a difference between removing passive gameplay and removing a pointless conflict between 2 of a classes core mechanics. 3. It was rhetorical. You're still nitpicking. No it couldn't have been linked to a trait, either the trait would be useless or mandatory and again since they're trying to encourage active play they wouldn't make a trait just to put phantasms back to how they were. Mesmers have been requesting a rework to phantasms for a long time, you can check the Mesmer page if you want. Your tone comes off as if the changes which we haven't even seen the full scope of absolutely will just make Mesmers quit in droves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kel.9406 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > No I'm not contradicting myself, read it more carefully. The other classes can choose not to use their mechanic sure, but the part you gloss over is that they _can_ use their class mechanic without it shooting them in the foot, which shouldn't be the case, especially if phantasms are a core mechanic on every single weapon set. It is way more of a PvE centric issue without a doubt, but still a significant issue nonetheless. Imagine if Engi's using toolbelt skills or Thieves using Steal costed them 80% of their damage, that was the state of mesmer basically until Chronophantasma and Mirage. Basically using the class mechanic directly punished Mesmer for using their weapon skills which isn't the case for any other class, that's poor design. > "The other classes can choose not to use their mechanic sure, but the part you gloss over is that they _can_ use their class mechanic without it shooting them in the foot" -> And the part you gloss over is mesmer can always play shatter build without shooting themselves in the foot. "Basically using the class mechanic directly punished Mesmer for using their weapon skills which isn't the case for any other class, that's poor design." -> So now it is ok to directly punished mesmer for **not** using the class mechanic, which isn't the case for any other class, that's poor design too. > Don't use false premises, nowhere did I say "clones can do all these things but phantasms can't." The only reason clones can be considered a DPS option now is because of Mirage, more specifically Infinite Horizon, Mirage also brings along the only two target swaps in the game, neither of which is useful with regards to phantasm as phantasm Mirage has significantly longer ramp up time and less DPS than the clone build. > "you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace," -> So what is your point of making this statement? > No I'm not giving that impression, I said specifically that for a long time the only build considered viable in upper tier content was the phantasm AA build or support Chrono. The Mirage is very recent history and was a huge step in the right direction. Yeah there are shatter builds and for the most part they are garbage outside of sPvP or WvW roaming. That should not be the case, and won't be the case on Tuesday. You say Phantasm AA build is boring and uninteresting, but now you say it is the only build considered viable in upper tier content. LOL, your argument is all over the place. Noone stopping you from playing exciting and interesting shatter/ambush builds in upper tier content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feersum Endjinn.4179 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 As a chrono main, I worry about these changes. This may be the point I actually stop playing this game as its just nerf after nerf after nerf and the only reason Chrono's have a place in raids is due to the quickness and alacrity. This change looks like it will screw quickness. I will wait and see, but it isn't looking good.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Kel.9406" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > No I'm not contradicting myself, read it more carefully. The other classes can choose not to use their mechanic sure, but the part you gloss over is that they _can_ use their class mechanic without it shooting them in the foot, which shouldn't be the case, especially if phantasms are a core mechanic on every single weapon set. It is way more of a PvE centric issue without a doubt, but still a significant issue nonetheless. Imagine if Engi's using toolbelt skills or Thieves using Steal costed them 80% of their damage, that was the state of mesmer basically until Chronophantasma and Mirage. Basically using the class mechanic directly punished Mesmer for using their weapon skills which isn't the case for any other class, that's poor design. > > > "The other classes can choose not to use their mechanic sure, but the part you gloss over is that they _can_ use their class mechanic without it shooting them in the foot" > -> And the part you gloss over is mesmer can always play shatter build without shooting themselves in the foot. > "Basically using the class mechanic directly punished Mesmer for using their weapon skills which isn't the case for any other class, that's poor design." -> So now it is ok to directly punished mesmer for **not** using the class mechanic, which isn't the case for any other class, that's poor design too. > > > Don't use false premises, nowhere did I say "clones can do all these things but phantasms can't." The only reason clones can be considered a DPS option now is because of Mirage, more specifically Infinite Horizon, Mirage also brings along the only two target swaps in the game, neither of which is useful with regards to phantasm as phantasm Mirage has significantly longer ramp up time and less DPS than the clone build. > > > "you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace," -> So what is your point of making this statement? > > > No I'm not giving that impression, I said specifically that for a long time the only build considered viable in upper tier content was the phantasm AA build or support Chrono. The Mirage is very recent history and was a huge step in the right direction. Yeah there are shatter builds and for the most part they are garbage outside of sPvP or WvW roaming. That should not be the case, and won't be the case on Tuesday. > > You say Phantasm AA build is boring and uninteresting, but now you say it is the only build considered viable in upper tier content. LOL, your argument is all over the place. > Noone stopping you from playing exciting and interesting shatter/ambush builds in upper tier content. Your reading comprehension is terrible. All of the criticisms are aimed at the phantasm AA build which (again because you didn't read) for a long time (WHICH MEANS NOT NOW AS IN IN THE PAST SINCE NOW WE HAVE MIRAGE BECAUSE YOU DID NOT READ OR CAN NOT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND) was the only viable build in upper tier PvE content because shattering does not produce enough DPS and phantasms were the only source of sustained DPS, which means you get punished for using your shatters. I guarantee you after the changes you still don't have to shatter, in fact maybe you still can ignore your class mechanic because for some reason you seem desperate to cling to passive gameplay in an action style combat MMO. (which doesn't make sense from a design standpoint but you don't get that I guess). Yeah nobody is stopping me, until you join any PuG group or a raid group static and they say, "Why are you playing a shatter build, we can't clear the content if your DPS isn't high enough." Suddenly you get kicked from the pug and benched on your raid team until you adjust your build. LOL YOU DON'T ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND ISSUES WITH MESMER LOL. But y'know you go ahead and try to do upper tier content with a core mesmer shatter build, you'll definitely not get kicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Kel.9406" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > **Was intended.** Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. Mesmer most notably flat out ignored their profession mechanic, which is a really really poor design along with the litany of issues coming with the nature of phantasms anyway, e.g. you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace, if a skill created a clone it goes unused because phantasms. > > > > The difference between the core mechanic of Mesmer and bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer is that bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer aren't directly hampered by utilizing their class mechanic, they don't have to flat out ignore it to continue doing anything notable (not that either build is notable anyway). If you want a really good example of how cancerous passive gameplay can be, just remember how flat out boring and uninteresting it was to fight against a PU mesmer back when clone death traits still existed. > > > > Bearbow ranger and MM necro have a choice of not utilizing their class mechanic- > passive gameplay. ANET is proposing changing to mesmer is to force us to spam F1-F4. > This is not rewarding active gameplay, but restricting gameplay. > > Mesmer will be "forced" to use shatters exactly as much as necro is "forced" into shroud. It's a bad idea *not* to use your class mechanic. But you *can* just ignore those buttons. The only thing you loose here, is phantasms staying out. So if that's what you want, play chronomancer w/ chronophantasma. Make a build that spams high damage phantasms. I predict that sword/sword and greatsword will be awesome for this. Also with heal signet to blow the cd on phantasms. A build like the above could keep absolutely sick numbers of phantasms up and alive. Especially if the new utility phantasms is good. So before you complain about being castrated. Wait for the patch, then grab your stones to make sure they're still there. Instead of crying about thier absence whilst you clutch your pearls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > **Was intended.** > > > > Now who's nitpicking? > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing". > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault. > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget. Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > **Was intended.** > > > > Now who's nitpicking? > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing". > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault. > > > > > > 1. That's not nitpicking, that's reading comprehension > 2. There's a difference between removing passive gameplay and removing a pointless conflict between 2 of a classes core mechanics. > 3. It was rhetorical. You're still nitpicking. > > No it couldn't have been linked to a trait, either the trait would be useless or mandatory and again since they're trying to encourage active play they wouldn't make a trait just to put phantasms back to how they were. Mesmers have been requesting a rework to phantasms for a long time, you can check the Mesmer page if you want. Your tone comes off as if the changes which we haven't even seen the full scope of absolutely will just make Mesmers quit in droves. Why are you speaking for the devs? But yeah, you're nitpicking. Saying its rhetorical is an attempt at dismissing the argument. What you can answer about the trait is, how would it be detrimental either way? If it'd be mandatory for your Chrono or Mirage, make the change the 1st minor trait and flavor the phantasm change to those particular elites. If players wanted to choose a phantasm build for their Chrono/Mirage, put the trait to make phantasms persist in a traitline that supports phantasms. And lastly, my tone is in regards to changes like this as a whole. Keep making fundamental changes and it's only natural people will give in and move on. It has happened before in other games and GW2 is not a special case that is immune to the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > **Was intended.** > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking? > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing". > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault. > > > > > > > > > > 1. That's not nitpicking, that's reading comprehension > > 2. There's a difference between removing passive gameplay and removing a pointless conflict between 2 of a classes core mechanics. > > 3. It was rhetorical. You're still nitpicking. > > > > No it couldn't have been linked to a trait, either the trait would be useless or mandatory and again since they're trying to encourage active play they wouldn't make a trait just to put phantasms back to how they were. Mesmers have been requesting a rework to phantasms for a long time, you can check the Mesmer page if you want. Your tone comes off as if the changes which we haven't even seen the full scope of absolutely will just make Mesmers quit in droves. > > Why are you speaking for the devs? > > But yeah, you're nitpicking. Saying its rhetorical is an attempt at dismissing the argument. > > What you can answer about the trait is, how would it be detrimental either way? If it'd be mandatory for your Chrono or Mirage, make the change the 1st minor trait and flavor the phantasm change to those particular elites. If players wanted to choose a phantasm build for their Chrono/Mirage, put the trait to make phantasms persist in a traitline that supports phantasms. > > And lastly, my tone is in regards to changes like this as a whole. Keep making fundamental changes and it's only natural people will give in and move on. It has happened before in other games and GW2 is not a special case that is immune to the same result. I'm not, that's just usually the case with traits the fundamentally alter a playstyle, look at infinite horizon, most of the ambushes are garbage without it because they're balanced on what would happen if 3 clones also could ambush. No it was actually rhetorical to show how ridiculous their 'brainless shatterspam' remark was, good attempt at armchair psychology though. Why should phantasm changes be locked behind elite specs? Why does that make sense to you. Fundamental changes can also keep people playing, it's not always negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > Why should phantasm changes be locked behind elite specs? Why does that make sense to you. Fundamental changes can also keep people playing, it's not always negative. How does it not make sense? The only argument against it would be, apparently, more work with regards to creating elite specs as all the phantasms would perform differently depending on the spec. I won't argue that fundamental changes can be positive, but we're not talking about changes to QoL or updated features. This is a change for active combat in a hybrid tab-targetting game that isn't actually an action combat game. I'd compare it more to taking the RPG elements from the game and making this a *real* action combat type of game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > Why should phantasm changes be locked behind elite specs? Why does that make sense to you. Fundamental changes can also keep people playing, it's not always negative. > > How does it not make sense? The only argument against it would be, apparently, more work with regards to creating elite specs as all the phantasms would perform differently depending on the spec. > > I won't argue that fundamental changes can be positive, but we're not talking about changes to QoL or updated features. This is a change for active combat in a hybrid tab-targetting game that isn't actually an action combat game. I'd compare it more to taking the RPG elements from the game and making this a *real* action combat type of game. So people who just want the base game are SoL and would just have to cope with the existing ignore your class mechanic because there's no opportunity for it to be useful problem. K. I have nothing further to say to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > Why should phantasm changes be locked behind elite specs? Why does that make sense to you. Fundamental changes can also keep people playing, it's not always negative. > > > > How does it not make sense? The only argument against it would be, apparently, more work with regards to creating elite specs as all the phantasms would perform differently depending on the spec. > > > > I won't argue that fundamental changes can be positive, but we're not talking about changes to QoL or updated features. This is a change for active combat in a hybrid tab-targetting game that isn't actually an action combat game. I'd compare it more to taking the RPG elements from the game and making this a *real* action combat type of game. > > So people who just want the base game are SoL and would just have to cope with the existing ignore your class mechanic because there's no opportunity for it to be useful problem. K. I have nothing further to say to you. When are you going to make an actual argument? This is just a baseless statement to dismiss what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > Why should phantasm changes be locked behind elite specs? Why does that make sense to you. Fundamental changes can also keep people playing, it's not always negative. > > > > > > How does it not make sense? The only argument against it would be, apparently, more work with regards to creating elite specs as all the phantasms would perform differently depending on the spec. > > > > > > I won't argue that fundamental changes can be positive, but we're not talking about changes to QoL or updated features. This is a change for active combat in a hybrid tab-targetting game that isn't actually an action combat game. I'd compare it more to taking the RPG elements from the game and making this a *real* action combat type of game. > > > > So people who just want the base game are SoL and would just have to cope with the existing ignore your class mechanic because there's no opportunity for it to be useful problem. K. I have nothing further to say to you. > > When are you going to make an actual argument? This is just a baseless statement to dismiss what I said. When your argument is worth arguing against then sure. But, 'muh passive play' in an action style combat game is pretty weak and not worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > Why should phantasm changes be locked behind elite specs? Why does that make sense to you. Fundamental changes can also keep people playing, it's not always negative. > > > > > > > > How does it not make sense? The only argument against it would be, apparently, more work with regards to creating elite specs as all the phantasms would perform differently depending on the spec. > > > > > > > > I won't argue that fundamental changes can be positive, but we're not talking about changes to QoL or updated features. This is a change for active combat in a hybrid tab-targetting game that isn't actually an action combat game. I'd compare it more to taking the RPG elements from the game and making this a *real* action combat type of game. > > > > > > So people who just want the base game are SoL and would just have to cope with the existing ignore your class mechanic because there's no opportunity for it to be useful problem. K. I have nothing further to say to you. > > > > When are you going to make an actual argument? This is just a baseless statement to dismiss what I said. > > When your argument is worth arguing against then sure. But, 'muh passive play' in an action style combat game is pretty weak and not worth the effort. I gave a solution to attempt to help both sides. You just dismiss it because you have no other way to dismiss it or, I dunno, just bad at collaborative discussion or debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > Why should phantasm changes be locked behind elite specs? Why does that make sense to you. Fundamental changes can also keep people playing, it's not always negative. > > > > > > > > > > How does it not make sense? The only argument against it would be, apparently, more work with regards to creating elite specs as all the phantasms would perform differently depending on the spec. > > > > > > > > > > I won't argue that fundamental changes can be positive, but we're not talking about changes to QoL or updated features. This is a change for active combat in a hybrid tab-targetting game that isn't actually an action combat game. I'd compare it more to taking the RPG elements from the game and making this a *real* action combat type of game. > > > > > > > > So people who just want the base game are SoL and would just have to cope with the existing ignore your class mechanic because there's no opportunity for it to be useful problem. K. I have nothing further to say to you. > > > > > > When are you going to make an actual argument? This is just a baseless statement to dismiss what I said. > > > > When your argument is worth arguing against then sure. But, 'muh passive play' in an action style combat game is pretty weak and not worth the effort. > > I gave a solution to attempt to help both sides. You just dismiss it because you have no other way to dismiss it or, I dunno, just bad at collaborative discussion or debate? And what happens when the sustained phantasm trait is mandatory? We're back to square one, ignore the class mechanic and AA. And if it's useless, it's a waste of a trait slot that could've been put toward something more interesting. And if you suddenly attach it to a minor trait in an Elite Spec you're doing the same thing you just criticized, alienating people who liked how it was before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Fact is, all our judgements, arguments, and other crap means little or nothing. We have to know what phantasms do now. We have to know what confusion does now. We have to know if they changed shatters. He have to know what the traits actually do. (there are a kittenload of them) So we can argue and qq 'muh passive play doh!' We can also argue, that 'you play the game these people made. So you like the product of these people's imagination. So you'll like the changes. Your just afraid of change... Because gaming as a whole is a form of escapism... Which means a higher percentage of players terrified of change.' But none of that matters. Cause we don't have the notes. Break and reform this discussion Tuesday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > And what happens when the sustained phantasm trait is mandatory? That's not really an argument. Nothing is actually mandatory. Are you saying what if phantasms become meta? > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: >We're back to square one, ignore the class mechanic and AA. The same reverse can be criticized. What exactly is the goal of this change? As far as I can see, it's to make the combat more active. So it's change for change's sake, fixing something that isn't actually broken but might look like so to people willing to strawman the gameplay to "press 3 buttons and AA". > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: >And if it's useless, it's a waste of a trait slot that could've been put toward something more interesting. And if you suddenly attach it to a minor trait in an Elite Spec you're doing the same thing you just criticized, alienating people who liked how it was before. And the rest of this is jumping to conclusions on "if" your previous statements hold up. If either sides of the solution end up being equal then it's not a matter of mandatory, it's a matter of choice. But that is predisposing my argument to equality while ignoring the proposition of "rewarding active gameplay". If the phantasm build is suboptimal (i.e. not meta) thus a niche build, your argument goes where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 They have not announced a trait to revert the changes to phantasms. There is no point imagining they had. One of you is right. Pretend it's not the other guy and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticjedi.6053 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Question... with this rework/update to core mesmer mechanics and a lot of quoting about lessons learned over 5 years, can we expect all core classes to recieve similar love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > They have not announced a trait to revert the changes to phantasms. > > There is no point imagining they had. > > One of you is right. Pretend it's not the other guy and move on. What are you trying to accomplish? Do you not understand what a forum is for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haishao.6851 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Haishao.6851" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Haishao.6851" said: > > > > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say: > > > > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_ > > > > > > > > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function. > > > > > > > > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay. > > > > > > There wasn't a choice. The most optimal strategy is to AA and sit there with 3 phantasms up, making Mesmer have an excruciating ramp up time. And if you needed to sacrifice 3 phantasms for a Daze or Distortion I doubt there was much actual choice involved (is the entire group gonna wipe or will I absolutely die) since your damage is mega kitten for the next 30 seconds or so. Ignoring the class mechanic is a symptom of flawed design and they're trying to rectify it. > > > > Most optimal strategy against what? > > Mesmer have kitten DPS regardless so shattering the phantasms really doesn't make such a huge difference in the end. Obliterating a defiance bar or evading attacks for 3 seconds is way more advantageous than just doing a bit more kitten damage. Especially if all you do is spamming 1. > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Haishao.6851" said: > > > > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say: > > > > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_ > > > > > > > > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function. > > > > > > > > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay. > > > > > > The balance was always way off in favour of not shattering as shattering if not in chrono would mean that your dmg plummets. In many cases having the dmg is just as much of a utility as the daze or the distort. If your target is dead then u dont need to distort/cc. > > > > It really depends how you play. Maybe against small mobs it's better to just keep the phantasm out but when fighting bosses you usually need the CC or distortion. Except maybe core champs, but the problem is the monsters, not mesmer. > > > > Is it a fractal and raid thing to just spam 1 while having your phantasms out? If so they should make the content of those places actually good instead of turning the class into stupid brainless cloneshatter spam. > > > > Distort sure but chrono was doing it because chronophantasma and vs small mobs u always shatter since they will be low after the phantasms unload and u use a weapon skill or 2. The content is fine its literally the best we had in years mesmer is what needed a change its dmging options were just too limited due to the huge punish from shattering. Before pof power phantasm mesmer was sitting around 31k which was respectable for the time considering the mesmer could go elsewhere and do mechanics while phantasms continue to attack. The content is definitely a problem if you can just sit there and spam 1 with no threat while phantasms do all the job. 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BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > They have not announced a trait to revert the changes to phantasms. > > > > There is no point imagining they had. > > > > One of you is right. Pretend it's not the other guy and move on. > > What are you trying to accomplish? Do you not understand what a forum is for? Trying to stop pointless toxicity about a theoretical thing that isn't even an actual issue. Yes. You moved past discussing opinions and in to slinging insults. I shared my opinion about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > > They have not announced a trait to revert the changes to phantasms. > > > > > > There is no point imagining they had. > > > > > > One of you is right. Pretend it's not the other guy and move on. > > > > What are you trying to accomplish? Do you not understand what a forum is for? > > Trying to stop pointless toxicity about a theoretical thing that isn't even an actual issue. > > Yes. You moved past discussing opinions and I to slinging insults. I shared my opinion about that. Discussion and debate isn't toxic. Even about theoreticals or speculation. What you're doing is trying to shut down discussion which is fascism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorudo.9054 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 my only problem is that they are casted on one enemy (and die when the one enemy die) but all enemies can kill them, IMO if it's an illusion for one enemy it should also count for one enemy. further more, if i cast an illusion on an enemy the counting should start again, that way you can cast more then 3 illusions but only 3 per enemy. (and shatter only works for the illusions assigned to that enemy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Haishao.6851" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Haishao.6851" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Haishao.6851" said: > > > > > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say: > > > > > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_ > > > > > > > > > > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function. > > > > > > > > > > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay. > > > > > > > > There wasn't a choice. The most optimal strategy is to AA and sit there with 3 phantasms up, making Mesmer have an excruciating ramp up time. And if you needed to sacrifice 3 phantasms for a Daze or Distortion I doubt there was much actual choice involved (is the entire group gonna wipe or will I absolutely die) since your damage is mega kitten for the next 30 seconds or so. Ignoring the class mechanic is a symptom of flawed design and they're trying to rectify it. > > > > > > Most optimal strategy against what? > > > Mesmer have kitten DPS regardless so shattering the phantasms really doesn't make such a huge difference in the end. Obliterating a defiance bar or evading attacks for 3 seconds is way more advantageous than just doing a bit more kitten damage. Especially if all you do is spamming 1. > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Haishao.6851" said: > > > > > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say: > > > > > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_ > > > > > > > > > > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function. > > > > > > > > > > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay. > > > > > > > > The balance was always way off in favour of not shattering as shattering if not in chrono would mean that your dmg plummets. In many cases having the dmg is just as much of a utility as the daze or the distort. If your target is dead then u dont need to distort/cc. > > > > > > It really depends how you play. Maybe against small mobs it's better to just keep the phantasm out but when fighting bosses you usually need the CC or distortion. Except maybe core champs, but the problem is the monsters, not mesmer. > > > > > > Is it a fractal and raid thing to just spam 1 while having your phantasms out? If so they should make the content of those places actually good instead of turning the class into stupid brainless cloneshatter spam. > > > > > > > Distort sure but chrono was doing it because chronophantasma and vs small mobs u always shatter since they will be low after the phantasms unload and u use a weapon skill or 2. The content is fine its literally the best we had in years mesmer is what needed a change its dmging options were just too limited due to the huge punish from shattering. Before pof power phantasm mesmer was sitting around 31k which was respectable for the time considering the mesmer could go elsewhere and do mechanics while phantasms continue to attack. > > The content is definitely a problem if you can just sit there and spam 1 with no threat while phantasms do all the job. > Its not about how dangerous is the content is about what the dps rotation of the class looks like. Sure if you take power pahtansm mesmer dps to 100cm u will be jumping and moving around the place avoiding aoes all the time but in the end of the day the rotation to deal dmg remains the same. U just try to perform it flawlessly and u succed because is a 3 button rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > **Was intended.** > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking? > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing". > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault. > > > > > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget. > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game. They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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