zealex.9410 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > Why should phantasm changes be locked behind elite specs? Why does that make sense to you. Fundamental changes can also keep people playing, it's not always negative. > > How does it not make sense? The only argument against it would be, apparently, more work with regards to creating elite specs as all the phantasms would perform differently depending on the spec. > > I won't argue that fundamental changes can be positive, but we're not talking about changes to QoL or updated features. This is a change for active combat in a hybrid tab-targetting game that isn't actually an action combat game. I'd compare it more to taking the RPG elements from the game and making this a *real* action combat type of game. A class staying the same is BORING. Having the same playstyle over 2 years until u get the next spec to spam for the next 2 years is BORING. gw2 not an action combat yeah ok gw2 has tab targeting you can also aim your skills with your camera and hit ppl with them that qualifies as action combat. The fact that the game is "tab targeting" doesnt mean active combat is not welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > They have not announced a trait to revert the changes to phantasms. > > > > There is no point imagining they had. > > > > One of you is right. Pretend it's not the other guy and move on. > > What are you trying to accomplish? Do you not understand what a forum is for? He tries to tell you (prob) that this all is meaningless as the devs have prepared the changes which neither of you know the full scale of and wont until the patch is out so this pointless arguement is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > **Was intended.** > > > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking? > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing". > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." > > > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget. > > > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game. > > They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen. Infinite minions was something introduced with Reaper and, if I'm not mistaken, taken away before the next elite spec was introduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > So... Let's be clear here. You have an incredibly skewed view of the definition of fascism. Fascism would require a body of authority. > > Well obviously, the next step to silencing here would be to get the thread locked and only a body of authority can do that... > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > What I did... Is exercise my American right to free speech. I used my speech to say 'I think your current discussion holds little to no merit, and has aggressive tone.' > > > > And I simply asked what you're trying to accomplish. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. But steering the discussion presented by the OP is simply dragging the discussion off-topic. Telling people "their discussion is invalid" is an opinion, but as pointless to discuss as me pointing that out to you. > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > - *HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALIZE THE STRUGGLE OF PEOPLE LIVING UNDER ACTUAL FACISM, FOR THE SAKE OF A ZINGER ON AN INTERNET FORUM.* > > When you're done with your virtue signaling and your pointless off-topic criticism, I'll be here to continue the discussion of the topic. You mean your pointless crusade for passive gameplay? Or your continually irritating tone of how expert your solution would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghanto.9784 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 "Because the power level of phantasm skills and traits usually assume that the phantasm will not be destroyed immediately, we have done an extensive balance pass on all skills and traits related to phantasms as well as several related traits and skills. We've also taken this opportunity to re-evaluate some of the under-performing phantasms to rework them into more impactful skills." Sounds like what you're basically saying is that the power level of phantom skills and traits will henceforth be predicated on the assumption that phantoms WILL be destroyed immediately. Which makes me wonder what the point of having "more impactful skills" is. Not sure how the "more impactful skills" are going to have any more actual impact in most situations if the phantoms are getting destroyed by anyone or anything just looking at them wrong. But maybe you meant more impactful skills completely divorced from phantasms...? Anyway, guess we'll just have to wait to see how it all pans out, but right now you can color me pessimistic. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > @"Shayd.9648" said: > > Is this going to be a loss in DPS for condi mirage in raid? This is a huge concern that has come up with my guildies since much of the sustained dps is coming from the phantasms. If it is, many of them are thinking of ditching it altogether. In my opinion that would be sad as condi mirage was almost the only viable dps for raid as a Mesmer. > We're expecting rotations to change for DPS mesmer builds. Clones builds now have more flexibility to summon phantasms, and shattering in general will be more usable, but there may be damage losses from other changes. We're looking forward to seeing what new builds appear and will continue to make adjustments if things end up too far out of line (in either direction). **After the large glamour nerf, Mesmer was considered "trash tier" by many for a year or more. I am concerned that this situation will be similar.** It also looks to me like it's very focused on raids. In my view, Mesmer is moving toward being a more generic and less unique class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blinkin The Blind.3190 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Blinkin The Blind.3190" said: > Here is a list of mesmer traits that could potentially change. > > Chrono: Improved Alacrity, chronophantasma > > Dueling: Phantasmal Fury > > Domination: Empowered Illusions > > Inspiration: Persisting Images, Protected Phantasms, Warden's feedback, Mental Defense, Illusionary Inspiration > > Illusions: Persistence of Memory, Illusionist's celerity, phantasmal haste, phantasmal force Aside from this list that I previously made, here are a few other things that have come to mind over the changes. 1) With the nerf to alacrity and clones being more influential, the Domination trait Imagined Burden alongside auto attack spam may end up becoming more popular. 2) With shatters going to be used more frequently by the masses it would be good to point out that only Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration have base damage amounts. A combo for the more impatient types could be Mimic + Signet of Illusions if they just want to spam shatters. 3) Another thing that may change in the future is the Dueling trait Blinding Dissipation, since shatters are being encouraged to be used more often. The inevitable claim of "blind spam" will occur. 4) The passive chrono trait Flow of Time automatically gives the player alacrity. With alacrity becoming a boon that can be stolen, stripped and converted, this leaves chrono's slightly more of a target in pvp/wvw anytime they shatter. 5) With the utility phantasms being changed, it could therefore mean that there will then be one less aoe condi cleanse available to mesmers as well as one less aoe damage reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csquirrelrun.3108 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Excited to see what changes, but disappointed that Phantasms get gutted instead of working out how to improve shatters to make them a meaningful build choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Ghanto.9784" said: > "Because the power level of phantasm skills and traits usually assume that the phantasm will not be destroyed immediately, we have done an extensive balance pass on all skills and traits related to phantasms as well as several related traits and skills. We've also taken this opportunity to re-evaluate some of the under-performing phantasms to rework them into more impactful skills." > > Sounds like what you're basically saying is that the power level of phantom skills and traits will henceforth be predicated on the assumption that phantoms WILL be destroyed immediately. Which makes me wonder what the point of having "more impactful skills" is. Not sure how the "more impactful skills" are going to have any more actual impact in most situations if the phantoms are getting destroyed by anyone or anything just looking at them wrong. But maybe you meant more impactful skills completely divorced from phantasms...? Anyway, guess we'll just have to wait to see how it all pans out, but right now you can color me pessimistic. ;) This is very similar to the change to Guardian Spirit Weapons. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the factors are nearly equal. Truthfully though, I don't think I've even seen a spirit weapon in use anytime recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahou.3924 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 "You say Phantasm AA build is boring and uninteresting, but now you say it is the only build considered viable in upper tier content. LOL, your argument is all over the place. Noone stopping you from playing exciting and interesting shatter/ambush builds in upper tier content." Seriously, what's so hard to understand? Even you should know that when people talk about valid, they refer to meta builds on site x. Easy right? And if said meta build is the only valid one in upper tier content BUT is - let's say compared to other profesisons (ignoring Mozart-skill playstyles like Engineer and Ele) - boring and uninteresting to play, then that's neither contradicing, nor is it "all over the place". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > This is very similar to the change to Guardian Spirit Weapons. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the factors are nearly equal. Truthfully though, I don't think I've even seen a spirit weapon in use anytime recently. I'm a bid reluctant to draw that line. Both spirit weapons and phantasms were bad mechanics before the changes. Spirit weapons continue to be useless, but that's not because of being a bad mechanic anymore, but instead the devs fucked-up numbers. In case of phantasms, we don't know yet whether the new mechanics will be good in practice and whether they'll get numbers right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand.9081 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: In case of phantasms, we don't know yet whether the new mechanics will be good in practice and whether they'll get numbers right. > That would be a first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 At some point, RNGsus must make them hit the right numbers by accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikeIsGone.8675 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > In my view, Mesmer is moving toward being a more generic and less unique class. The concept of phantasms was already pretty generic and not at all unique. Its literally like having an uncontrollable pet around, that attacks every now and then for some extra dmg. The ramp up was annoying, and to keep them all up you had actively ignore the profession mechanic AND couldn't use any skills that would spawn any other illusions since that would overwrite your existing phantasms. Nothing about this was fun or interactive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kel.9406 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Mahou.3924" said: > "You say Phantasm AA build is boring and uninteresting, but now you say it is the only build considered viable in upper tier content. LOL, your argument is all over the place. > Noone stopping you from playing exciting and interesting shatter/ambush builds in upper tier content." > > Seriously, what's so hard to understand? Even you should know that when people talk about valid, they refer to meta builds on site x. Easy right? > And if said meta build is the only valid one in upper tier content BUT is - let's say compared to other profesisons (ignoring Mozart-skill playstyles like Engineer and Ele) - boring and uninteresting to play, then that's neither contradicing, nor is it "all over the place". Seriously, do u and the other guy understand the situation here? ANET is removing the phantasm AA build which is one of the valid in upper tier, so what does that left us with? Shatter? Oh wait...you guys get kick for playing shatter. So what do you guys want now? Mirage? You guys are saying it is boring and uninteresting, but have you thought about other ppl who only have the core game? IT IS THE ONLY VALID BUILD for upper tier available to them. So selfish of you all. The meta build is one of valid one in upper tier content but you want ANET to remove it? This itself is contradicting. ANET should create more variable builds, not restricting gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bod.8261 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 **Dear Anet, can you just stop using the live servers as a testing environment and create a PTR (testing server open to everyone) like _any other respectable MMO_?** **Thx, everyone** @ Mesmer changes: Won't change much in PvP, won't change much in open world PvE, probably destroys Mesmer in group PvE ... so ... yay?? Pointless to discuss without numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > **Was intended.** > > > > > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking? > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing". > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." > > > > > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget. > > > > > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game. > > > > They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen. > > Infinite minions was something introduced with Reaper and, if I'm not mistaken, taken away before the next elite spec was introduced. Yes. And? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > > @"Shayd.9648" said: > > > Is this going to be a loss in DPS for condi mirage in raid? This is a huge concern that has come up with my guildies since much of the sustained dps is coming from the phantasms. If it is, many of them are thinking of ditching it altogether. In my opinion that would be sad as condi mirage was almost the only viable dps for raid as a Mesmer. > > We're expecting rotations to change for DPS mesmer builds. Clones builds now have more flexibility to summon phantasms, and shattering in general will be more usable, but there may be damage losses from other changes. We're looking forward to seeing what new builds appear and will continue to make adjustments if things end up too far out of line (in either direction). > > **After the large glamour nerf, Mesmer was considered "trash tier" by many for a year or more. I am concerned that this situation will be similar.** It also looks to me like it's very focused on raids. > > In my view, Mesmer is moving toward being a more generic and less unique class. Ill take interesting "generic" ganeplay over unique and poorly thought out. But then again, no class destroys their summons fir benefit like mesmer will now be able to do so theres that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontlook.1823 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 **Just want to create a clear distinction here.** Mesmer Phantasms are built in each of the Mesmer's weapon choices as well as their skill bar. Not to mention they have numerous traits that modify phantasms. In no way is this change comparable to Guardian spirit weapons which have 1 trait available to them, are only available through the skill bar, and, like most skills, are situational. Although it was released over a longer period of time, the Devs at Anet did a change to guards on this scale pre-HoT. In any case, the change was a huge QoL improvement for Guardians. As of now they have 3 viable specs: Power, Condi, and Support. All viable in upper-tier content, PvP, WvW, Raids, Dungeons, Fractals, and OW. Large-scale, small-scale, you name it. Be patient... A lot of people are jumping the gun. This is going to take sometime... I'm very certain the Devs have a good end-goal. Most of the feedback on threads about the change are hardly constructive. That's probably going to hurt us in the long run. So, before we go hitting the panic button. Think of things you'd like to see in accordance with upcoming changes.. Come on, people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu.8309 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > - Phantasms no longer will persist indefinitely. Instead, a phantasm will attack once and then automatically be destroyed. If interrupted during its attack the phantasm also will be destroyed. Hey Gaile, as a solo player most of the time, if the Phantasm attacks once and for me when i'm in a downed state, will the clones still assist in getting a rally in open world PvE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > > So... Let's be clear here. You have an incredibly skewed view of the definition of fascism. Fascism would require a body of authority. > > > > Well obviously, the next step to silencing here would be to get the thread locked and only a body of authority can do that... > > > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > > What I did... Is exercise my American right to free speech. I used my speech to say 'I think your current discussion holds little to no merit, and has aggressive tone.' > > > > > > > And I simply asked what you're trying to accomplish. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. But steering the discussion presented by the OP is simply dragging the discussion off-topic. Telling people "their discussion is invalid" is an opinion, but as pointless to discuss as me pointing that out to you. > > > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > > - *HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALIZE THE STRUGGLE OF PEOPLE LIVING UNDER ACTUAL FACISM, FOR THE SAKE OF A ZINGER ON AN INTERNET FORUM.* > > > > When you're done with your virtue signaling and your pointless off-topic criticism, I'll be here to continue the discussion of the topic. > > You mean your pointless crusade for passive gameplay? Or your continually irritating tone of how expert your solution would be? Again, it's not a crusade for passive gameplay, it's a suggestion to not fundamentally change the game from how it has been played and supported for so long so as not to alienate long time players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > > > So... Let's be clear here. You have an incredibly skewed view of the definition of fascism. Fascism would require a body of authority. > > > > > > Well obviously, the next step to silencing here would be to get the thread locked and only a body of authority can do that... > > > > > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > > > What I did... Is exercise my American right to free speech. I used my speech to say 'I think your current discussion holds little to no merit, and has aggressive tone.' > > > > > > > > > > And I simply asked what you're trying to accomplish. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. But steering the discussion presented by the OP is simply dragging the discussion off-topic. Telling people "their discussion is invalid" is an opinion, but as pointless to discuss as me pointing that out to you. > > > > > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said: > > > > - *HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALIZE THE STRUGGLE OF PEOPLE LIVING UNDER ACTUAL FACISM, FOR THE SAKE OF A ZINGER ON AN INTERNET FORUM.* > > > > > > When you're done with your virtue signaling and your pointless off-topic criticism, I'll be here to continue the discussion of the topic. > > > > You mean your pointless crusade for passive gameplay? Or your continually irritating tone of how expert your solution would be? > > Again, it's not a crusade for passive gameplay, it's a suggestion to not fundamentally change the game from how it has been played and supported for so long so as not to alienate long time players. > Fundamental changes happen all the time. Adaptation abd change is the lifeblood of any online game. Esp mmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > This is very similar to the change to Guardian Spirit Weapons. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the factors are nearly equal. Truthfully though, I don't think I've even seen a spirit weapon in use anytime recently. > I'm a bid reluctant to draw that line. Both spirit weapons and phantasms were bad mechanics before the changes. Spirit weapons continue to be useless, but that's not because of being a bad mechanic anymore, but instead the devs kitten-up numbers. In case of phantasms, we don't know yet whether the new mechanics will be good in practice and whether they'll get numbers right. > I would argue that every utility doesn't need to be omgwfkbbq but just unique yet not complete garbage. While spirit weapons weren't very good, I still used them for flavor and to spread my boons to when solo. Even with balanced numbers, I doubt people will flock to them while there are so many other extremely impactful utilities available to Guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"BikeIsGone.8675" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > In my view, Mesmer is moving toward being a more generic and less unique class. > > The concept of phantasms was already pretty generic and not at all unique. Its literally like having an uncontrollable pet around, that attacks every now and then for some extra dmg. The ramp up was annoying, and to keep them all up you had actively ignore the profession mechanic AND couldn't use any skills that would spawn any other illusions since that would overwrite your existing phantasms. Nothing about this was fun or interactive. > I used shatters on my phantasm build, usually when the recharge on the phantasm was nearly reset and I could pop them right out again, or when the foe was about to die or when I needed to change targets. Granted, that was before the whole ramp-up was introduced so I'd attribute any aversion to shattering phantasms a product of that particular trait, not the phantasm mechanic. As for the unique vs generic statements, I think persisting phantasms is more unique than a targeted AoE (or I guess a ST ranged for some), which is what phantasms will become. The only thing different about it is that these ranged attacks can be destroyed mid-flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > **Was intended.** > > > > > > > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking? > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing". > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget. > > > > > > > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game. > > > > > > They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen. > > > > Infinite minions was something introduced with Reaper and, if I'm not mistaken, taken away before the next elite spec was introduced. > > Yes. And? That creates a difference between the two examples presented (necro mass-minion vs mesmer phantasms). That difference is the key to your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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