Shattering the Status Quo

[zealex.9410]

> @"KynnVyr.1378" said:

> the thing i'm worried about is the disapearance of choice in wich fantasme to summon, right now we need to choose wich one to summon but if they stay for 1 (2) attaques then you can spam all your fantasm wait and repeat, that's borring (yeah no more illusion of choice ... no more choice) but if the fantasme get rework with new abilitys it can work for the better

 

Dps wise ud always summon the sword phantasm since it deals the most dmg. If the dmg was condi it would be pistol phantasm. Other than that you are looking for utility like the projectile destruction from focus then u summon that.

 

This will actually even allow us more freedom. Since you wont replace an existing phantasm with a new one that makes summoning what u need alot easier. Imo.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > **Was intended.**

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing".

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS."

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Infinite minions was something introduced with Reaper and, if I'm not mistaken, taken away before the next elite spec was introduced.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes. And?

> > > >

> > > > That creates a difference between the two examples presented (necro mass-minion vs mesmer phantasms). That difference is the key to your answer.

> > >

> > > It doesnt give me any answer nor does it justify not changing phantasms. The only thing that that tells is that anet is fast when it comes to nerfing necro.

> >

> > I suppose I'll have to explain your game for you then.

> >

> > 1. Phantasms were a thing and supported for 4+ years, making it through many changes such as multiple trait overhauls. Rise! was nerfed after its effects created practically infinite minions. Apples vs organges.

> > 2. The effect of necromancer's army of minions created a clear server stability issue but mesmer is hard capped at 3 illusions at any given time. Apples vs oranges.

> > 3. Rise! still performs the fundamental effect it always has which is to summon minions to absorb damage. I feel proponents of this new change could likely argue that the new phantasms would still perform their fundamental effect, but I don't think they'd even want to.

>

> The reason that phantasms were left liek taht is because they didnt make any build overperform. Chrono didnt overperform, mirage didnt overperform nor did phantasm power mesmer. Necro did hence why the change was fast. Chrono played out well enough and not thanks to that mechanic same with mirage. That allowed them to ignore the problem for a long time. Until after hot it also didnt matter because mesmer was never taken in any content for his phantasms mesmer wsa taken for his portal and other utilities.

>

> I can see the issues with server stability and idd u have a point there but, the skill plus other tools that the necro mancer had still allowed the class to top everything else with superior single target and insane cleave.

>

> Phantasms wont stop performing their core job which is get summoned perform your attack skill. They arent clones they arent supposed to confuse anyone. They just are there to deal dps with their ability which will remain even after. Diff is mesmer will be more free to use other tools in their arsenal.

 

So you did understand the differences between those examples. Why did you pretend you didn't?

 

But my perspective is reflected in your explanation: phantasms weren't overperforming. I'd even say they were underperforming in some key gamemodes but they provided other utility that we'll have to wait and see how it's replaced. Basically, the reason phantasms will be changed is because the devs believe one way to play will be more fun than the other. This isn't a false presumption for some, but it may be false for everyone (again, I'd have to literally see how they are changed). Rather than telling players how to have fun with their game, why not give them choices? If the devs keep telling players how to play by restricting options, it just might reduce player retention. I'm not on a crusade to keep phantasm, but this phantasm change isn't the 1st fundamental change that has ticked people off and the more straws you put on people's backs, the easier it is for them to call the last straw.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > **Was intended.**

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing".

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS."

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Infinite minions was something introduced with Reaper and, if I'm not mistaken, taken away before the next elite spec was introduced.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes. And?

> > > > >

> > > > > That creates a difference between the two examples presented (necro mass-minion vs mesmer phantasms). That difference is the key to your answer.

> > > >

> > > > It doesnt give me any answer nor does it justify not changing phantasms. The only thing that that tells is that anet is fast when it comes to nerfing necro.

> > >

> > > I suppose I'll have to explain your game for you then.

> > >

> > > 1. Phantasms were a thing and supported for 4+ years, making it through many changes such as multiple trait overhauls. Rise! was nerfed after its effects created practically infinite minions. Apples vs organges.

> > > 2. The effect of necromancer's army of minions created a clear server stability issue but mesmer is hard capped at 3 illusions at any given time. Apples vs oranges.

> > > 3. Rise! still performs the fundamental effect it always has which is to summon minions to absorb damage. I feel proponents of this new change could likely argue that the new phantasms would still perform their fundamental effect, but I don't think they'd even want to.

> >

> > The reason that phantasms were left liek taht is because they didnt make any build overperform. Chrono didnt overperform, mirage didnt overperform nor did phantasm power mesmer. Necro did hence why the change was fast. Chrono played out well enough and not thanks to that mechanic same with mirage. That allowed them to ignore the problem for a long time. Until after hot it also didnt matter because mesmer was never taken in any content for his phantasms mesmer wsa taken for his portal and other utilities.

> >

> > I can see the issues with server stability and idd u have a point there but, the skill plus other tools that the necro mancer had still allowed the class to top everything else with superior single target and insane cleave.

> >

> > Phantasms wont stop performing their core job which is get summoned perform your attack skill. They arent clones they arent supposed to confuse anyone. They just are there to deal dps with their ability which will remain even after. Diff is mesmer will be more free to use other tools in their arsenal.

>

> So you did understand the differences between those examples. Why did you pretend you didn't?

>

> But my perspective is reflected in your explanation: phantasms weren't overperforming. I'd even say they were underperforming in some key gamemodes but they provided other utility that we'll have to wait and see how it's replaced. Basically, the reason phantasms will be changed is because the devs believe one way to play will be more fun than the other. This isn't a false presumption for some, but it may be false for everyone (again, I'd have to literally see how they are changed). Rather than telling players how to have fun with their game, why not give them choices? If the devs keep telling players how to play by restricting options, it just might reduce player retention. I'm not on a crusade to keep phantasm, but this phantasm change isn't the 1st fundamental change that has ticked people off and the more straws you put on people's backs, the easier it is for them to call the last straw.

 

Thats the nature of changes. Also phantasms never really provided the option in pve to play outside of them if youw ere running power or condi pre mirage. Shatters were basically useless due to phantasms. And that needed to change. U can have a fire and forget playstyle with mirage atm but mesmer doesnt have an engaging play style. Imo if the whole of the class has an engaging playstyle and some elitespecs drift away from that then thats better.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Thats the nature of changes.

 

You're generalizing. Balance changes are justified, overhauls usually require more reason than "we just thought this would be better". That's why the 1st trait overhaul was changed but the 2nd existed for the purpose of elite specs.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>Also phantasms never really provided the option in pve to play outside of them if youw ere running power or condi pre mirage.

 

The suggestion is to *GIVE* them the option. This isn't about what you could do in the past, but what you won't be able to do in the future.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Thats the nature of changes.

>

> You're generalizing. Balance changes are justified, overhauls usually require more reason than "we just thought this would be better". That's why the 1st trait overhaul was changed but the 2nd existed for the purpose of elite specs.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >Also phantasms never really provided the option in pve to play outside of them if youw ere running power or condi pre mirage.

>

> The suggestion is to *GIVE* them the option. This isn't about what you could do in the past, but what you won't be able to do in the future.

>

>

 

That goes both ways

[draxynnic.3719]

Hrrrmn.

 

Been thinking about this one, including taking the time to play the current mesmer a bit while I still can, and here are my thoughts. Note that I've only scanned the rest of the thread - if what I say has been said before (it probably has...) than consider it a case of independently coming to the same conclusion.

 

From a pure balancing perspective, I can see this being a good thing, assuming that mesmers are adequately compensated for the loss of the old phantasms. It's been felt for a while that mesmer sustained damage, especially in situations where phantasms aren't practical, has been held back because a lot of their power "budget" is tied up in phantasms, which require a bit of a ramp-up time. Removing the old style of phantasms and shifting the DPS back to the mesmer and to immediate effects could go a long way to bringing the mesmer on par with other professions in raid-type scenarios. (PvP probably won't change much, since phantasms often don't last long before being shattered or otherwise destroyed anyway... although the lower health of clones relative to phantasms may impact PvP.)

 

I do worry, however, that it might compromise the uniqueness of mesmers to convert phantasms into, essentially, a one-off attack that generates a clone rather than a persistent entity. Make no mistake - this is actually _the_ biggest change that has been made to a profession since release. Bigger than elite specialisations: those add options, while this is fundamentally changing the basic character and mechanics of the core profession. No other profession really has the mesmer behaviour of quickly summoning multiple persistent but expendable entities linked to a specific target, and taking that away could compromise what makes the mesmer distinctive.

 

Buffing the attacks of the clones may help here. Currently, most clones, power clones especially, essentially exist only to be shattered. Now, evidently it's a goal of the change to make shattering as often as possible more desirable, so the goal should be to make it so that using Mind Wrack or Cry of Frustration is never a DPS loss, but with clones out of the picture, clones could probably stand to become a more significant threat in their own right (without Infinite Horizon). Because of the behaviour of conditions applied by clones, I have noticed that having three staff clones does seem to provide low but not negligible additional damage - that might be a reasonable ballpark to aim for.

[menace.4629]

Not looking forward to these changes. I've got 16 alt toons, and swap amongst them according to how I feel at any given moment. I love my mirage. Just the way she is. Play her quite often. Put a lot of time and effort into her. Now you come and make fairly arbitrary changes. Disrupt all my hard work, time, effort, and thought. Not happy.

[Cwnannwn.7681]

Power phantasm mesmer being the sole viable power dps spec for mesmer had next to nothing to do with how simple it was and a lot more to do with how terrible power shatter has been since it got nerfed into the ground before HoT. I guess congrats on likely killing mesmer power dps for good.

[Jah Warrior.9682]

Confusion nerf to pve was a big mistake and completely unjustified - clone mirage is gutted completely. Keep confusion duration to pvp only. Axe mirage is worthless and condi mirage has almost zero viability in any raid. Lost 10k dps - thanks Anet.

Why do really good games have such a crappy balancing team? There seems to be no middle ground, just gut something or make it insanely op. Really frustrating

[Astralporing.1957]

Looking at these changes, they seem to be a huge nerf to mesmer all around, with no compensation whatsoever. Typical.

[Athef.6879]

Thank you, again, for completely ruining the game for me. Chronomancer is now completely useless and therefore no longer viable, and since it was the last thing I've really enjoyed about this game, I think I'm done with it completely. I regret ever giving you money, since the only thing you've done so far was gutting the classes I enjoyed playing. I didn't know about these changes until I've stepped into Fractals today, and after a long day, I wanted to finally have some fun, only for it to get even worse. Chronomancer was good mainly in providing Quickness, Alacrity, and fast enough CC. They can do neither of those anymore.

So, I guess, this is goodbye. It has been too much already.

[Lilieze.8290]

The illusion of choice, yea..mesmer don't even have a choice now so no more illusion.

Power mes, condi mirage, support chrono are all fxxked up now.

Once again Anet showing they have no clue about their class.

Why everytime Anet just killing the old choice and force ppl to play what they think its viable, rather than make another build viable so player have a real choice?

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> If that dies out, Mesmer becomes that profession that people only take fun-running in dungeons for a laugh.... Yeah. That's it.

> I really hope alongside these changes, Mesmers Power damage can be brought upto scratch to other professions. Otherwise, there's no point playing one anymore.

 

Called it. Those confusion changes hammered that last nail in. We're only really good for JPs now! Let’s see how power dps benchmarks pull up some good numbers.

[Leo G.4501]

Would have preferred they keep phantasms as they were and just changed the Phantasmal Force trait to work like in the new changes + a duration on the buffed damage on the phantasms (like 8 seconds of improved damage) if you wanted to make players use shatters more. Then it'd be just summon the phants, let them do their thing while they have the buff while you keep your might topped off, shatter them when the buff on the phants expires, rinse and repeat.

[Star.4386]

I'm so in love with the changes, I'm soooooooooo in LOVE!

Thank you, ArenaNet!!! ♥

[Arcarnum.3940]

Maybe because my Mesmer is my main and has been for years......but on first impressions.....I hate the change to illusions. Perhaps I'm set in my ways etc. I'm a casual gamer, not a pvp fiend or a theory crafter. I genuinely don't see the point of Illusions anymore, I liked that they were persistent, I factored in re-summoning time to when I shattered stuff etc. now they are another 'press and you're done' skill. Sad panda :(

[Blinkin The Blind.3190]

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Blinkin The Blind.3190" said:

> > That awkward moment when you realize Mesmer is getting an overhaul and Revenants are still missing underwater skills.

>

> They are just giving preview's to Mesmer because they warned us there was big changes coming.

>

> We still know near nothing about what the other 8 classes are getting Tuesday.

>

 

So how are you liking those new Revenant underwater skills?

[Hashire Kazemeijin.6719]

So, sustained Phantasms are just flat gone, yeah? That really kinda sucks for me. Yes I know it was less "engaging" than what was intended, but I fell in love with the idea of Phantasms; just having a personal mob on demand and all that.

 

I designed my first Mesmer, both in theme and gameplay, specifically around that idea; his whole thing is dual swords plus sword buddies just ganging up on a target and stabbing the hell out of it over and over.

 

With this gone, I pretty much have no reason to play my primary Mesmer anymore, because now he's just not the same person anymore. His whole thematic is gone and I'd basically have to re-write his entire character and theme to play him after these changes.

[The Lag.9742]

Hi there, i'm not sure if there still time to ask but still i would like to give it a shot

my questions is not about the mesmer itself, but for the other classes. This time was mesmer to get revised on a mechanic that developed in a less engaging playstyle. My question being, what's on the store for the rest of the classes? are plans to revise/re-work old or unused mechanics for other classes? thanks for your time, keep up with the great job!

[Bloodgruve.6038]

This shattered much more then the status quo...

[Alteros.3019]

I was ahead of the curve on this one. I converted my Mesmer to a power build a couple of weeks ago because I found condition Mesmer to be rather lackluster in WvW (perhaps I was doing it wrong, but I was underwhelmed). Part of what underwhelmed me was that I was dependent on confusion as a condition and I could never get it to output the damage consistently with its unreliable proc effect and the frequently applied condition cleansing by other classes. Again, perhaps I was doing it wrong...but I thought confusion was **weak** pre-patch. It might as well be removed from the game at this point its so useless. In WoW, this would have been called a “cover-condition”, something to wrap over something more useful, but useless in of itself.

 

Oh well, I’m going to probably take a loooong break from this game for a while. All the “excitement” from this patch has made me ponder what amount of future effort, and money, I want to put into the game.

[Lanhelin.3480]

At least regarding wanting to make us play more actively, the current passive effect of Signet of Illusions is completely contradictory to this intention and lets us "play" even more passive than before. Maybe they should convert it to a charged skill with uses or tie the start of the summoning to the use of a weapon skill or fill up the number of clones just when the Mesmer has summoned at least 1 clone and less than three are active, or something like that.

 

As a non-shatterer I can live with not shattering my clones instead of my phants and rebuild for condi instead of power. With torment on WoC (though currently bugged, because clones still apply vulnerability instead) and a Mirage condi build my preferred playstyle remains.

 

If ANet really wants to force Mesmer players to use the shatter mechanics, clones must not do any damage at all, be it physical or condi. Though if this comes true I'd let all my mesmers rest in peace.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Blinkin The Blind.3190" said:

> > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > > @"Blinkin The Blind.3190" said:

> > > That awkward moment when you realize Mesmer is getting an overhaul and Revenants are still missing underwater skills.

> >

> > They are just giving preview's to Mesmer because they warned us there was big changes coming.

> >

> > We still know near nothing about what the other 8 classes are getting Tuesday.

> >

>

> So how are you liking those new Revenant underwater skills?

 

I didn't say we were getting stuff, just that they talked about Mesmer earlier cause it was dropped early that there was big changes, which was true.

 

We all know underwater is not a thing anymore. Chrono and Mirage have barely nothing for underwater.

[moutzaheadin.4029]

Not being able to shatter phantasms in a game where the devs want you to "shatter more" is hypocritical.

 

Please make a trait that allows us to shatter phantasms , it would totally restore the pure shatter Mesmer/Chrono/mirage.

 

As it stands now we have much less.builds to choose from.

 

Every Mesmer is now a mirage , running almost the same build.

 

On the other hand I can see Anets thinking. If all Mesmer/Chrono/mirages are pigeon-holed into the same build. It would be much easier to balance the 1 viable spec that 95% of the people are using.

 

I happen to find Mesmer a total bore now. Especially when everyone is playing the same spec on mirage.

 

Im close to done. Once the fun is gone there's no reason to log in.

[Warlock.2583]

I must say, having played Mesmer from day 1 at game launch, I find myself disliking these changes intently.

 

I have always prioritized phantasms over clones, and I have never found myself to be a "passive" player. I have summoned a mix of phantasms and clones to quickly build my shatter set, so that I can wait for the tactically appropriate moment to shatter, and then rebuild my shatter set for a follow up, all while doing sustained damage while I use my non-clone/phantasm attacks and utilities to maintain pressure and group support.

 

Perhaps I'm in a minority, but I've always felt that the core mesmer and chronomoancer supported a shatter build which involved phantasms based on a thoughtful, applied tactics sort of play style. And I never found that boring or "passive".

 

I find myself with the new system hard pressed to build enough illusions to shatter effectively before they are killed, and hitting more buttons to less overall effect. My fingers certainly are moving more, but I certainly feel like I'm doing less, and am overall less effective at damage, interrupts, condition and boon application, and overall team play.

 

My preference would be for a return to persistent clones, even if it required a trait choice to restore a viable strategic play mode.

 

Beyond that, I'll put my two mesmers on the back burner for now, since the play is no longer engaging from either a direct combat point of view or a "strike at the opportune moment" sort of extended battle to me.