Solori.6025 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > @"Rainiris.1975" said: > > > > > > > > However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want to.... fix.... something that was.... workign as intended? > > > > > > > > > > > > Had an arguement about this on these forums, apparently anything that is changed is not working as intended > > > > > > So if they are changing it, guess it was broken since 2012 > > > > > > > > > > Correction it worked as intended in 2012 > > > > > Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse it thus its not working as it was intended to originally in todays current meta. > > > > > > > > .....Even in todays current meta phantasm gameplay is not even the best or optimal for all game modes.. > > > > Especially not 200% that you just made up. > > > > For world bosses- I would say it offered mesmers, like engineers the ability to afk tag, But it certainly isnt the best and it especially isn't "200%" optimal. > > > > Phantasms have worked the same, and are a used the same way since 2012. It offered a playstyle some people liked. That hasn't changed, until now. > > > > > > > > >Lets be real most phantasms were just shatter bomb fotter in pvp till mirage was released only then did people start whining about how useless phantasms were specifically for mirage. > > > > > > > > . . . . Phantasms were never ** JUST** shatter bomb fotter.. Do you play mirage in pvp? > > > > You use a phantasm's for many different purposes ,one of the main ones being to continue damage pressure if you end up missing a shatter burst, or run into a passive that stops you from killing your target. > > > > And to my knowledge, people weren't whining about phantasms, and from my observations havent been even with the release of PoF and mirage. > > > > **Do you have any threads you could link to show where/how you came to this conclusion?** > > > > > > > > >This is also partly the devs mistake for making mirage condition so kitten strong instead of adjusting it properly like they did for most other professions in terms of stack and potency application. > > > > > > > > Thats a pvp issue that has little to do with phantasms, and more to do with how condition application works. Though this needs to be readjusted for multiple classes. > > > > Burst conditions shouldn't exist and is kind of contradictory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before mirage everything was shatter as much as possible. Did you ever play choro in pvp? lol > > > > > Yes, and if all you did was summon a phantasm and blindly shatter you did it wrong. > > You did it very wrong. > > > Its just that simple. Mirage is the first profession that promotes delaying your shatter to actually make use of the illusions. > > It was also a tactic for base mesmer when it was relevant. > > > > >Of course the 200% is a made up number you can really measure how optimal players use a mechanic my point was that people clearly changed what it was originally designed for from 2012 creating the problem. > > Cool except that this wasn't changed because the players broke it and it clearly stats from the original dev post > > > > "However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved... " > > > > This change has come about because they want a more active game. Same way they changed adrenaline for warriors to not save adrenaline out of combat. > > It is an evolutionary choice that the devs want to basically shoehorn mesmer players into. This isn't because phantasms became magically broken just a difference in vision from start to finish. > > Thus why my original comment. Doesn't make sense to call something changed unintended if it's just a change in a different direction. Also my original comment was sarcasm... > > Though I guess I should have put a /s behind it. > > > > Of course you dont blindly shatter there was a pattern to it just like every profession has. You know what i mean. I think you are just messing with me now XD. You know there is a person in the mesmer forum that said in not so many words Thief bursting from stealth is fine, but mesmer isn't.... ( and initiative is a cooldown) Like that was a legit arguement and they were serious, So i do apologize but I honestly can't tell when people are joking or being completely serious in the forum and take things as the latter. > Of course things dont magically become broken people spend some lab time figuring out how to make them broken. This happens with any game that has any kind of competitive spirit within it. All it takes is a few hundred - thousand hours and you can make almost (loose term) anything broken. truth. > The point is lets be happy they are actually taking a step to do this for one profession and I do hope that other profession follow sooner rather than later. As other professions have some serious issues going on too. That a simple fix 2 elite specs down the line wont fix. I'm envious you still have the ability to put faith in this balance team. I lost it at the Revenant attempts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Haishao.6851" said: > > > > > > People will certainly miss AFK farming 24/7 with their indefinitely persistent Phantams. > > > > > Can't miss what you've never had. > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > Correction it worked as intended in 2012 > > > > > > Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse it > > > > > What you're not saying is that "200% optimal abuse", in optimal (and very narrow) range of conditions could get the mesmer dps option only up to the level already inhabited by few other classes. > > > > > Unless by "working as intended" you mean "no serious pve dps option". > > > > > > > > By working as intended the devs clearly didnt play it the same way when it was being designed. It worked properly as they originally designed it. How ever players learned to make the most of its mechanics and abuse them (im sorry but 15 illusion and phantasm+ shatters in 3 seconds or less is clearly not intended design from the 2012 idea.) > > > > > > > > > > Do you have a video or a source that shows how someone can get 15+ illusions and shatter in 3 seconds..because if not.. > > > **You are lying and/or trolling** > > > > To be fair mesmer being one of the strongest professions in pvp and having the most tools of nearly all the professions in general a dps lose in pve kind of could be a fair trade for the areas the profession does excel in. > > > > > > source? > > > > I find it odd how they often over look mesmers actions per second being able to do as many things as it can in a instant as well as its tools such as invuln, stealth, and now an even better deception mechanic. > > > > > > It can't do anything more than other classes, multiple classes have invuln and many of them have passive or longer lasting invuln, multiple classes have stealth, and for your deception lets raise you crit immunity and massive healing? > > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention in gw1 mesmer > > > > > > This isn't GW1. > > > This hasn't been GW1 since launch. > > > You're comparing apples to potatoes here. > > > > > > > > > > Have you really never been hit with a shatter burst that breaks the animation of the clones that it just shows dead illusions laying around on the floor as if they were killed players it takes alot and i mean alot of illusions to do this. > > Yes I do that quite often but it's never 15+ more like 4 or 5 sometimes 6 depending on the situation. > > > As far as providing a source of tools for mesmer vs other professions. All you have to do is log in and play the professions yourself. :U its odd that i would need provide a source for that unless you have not at spent any time at all on any other professions. Mesmer has its strong areas and weak areas. I would like them to fix both. > > > No, I was asking for a source for the statistic you made up. So far, the consensus I have seen in Spvp is that mesmer is overshadowed still by DD, Holo, and scourge, that's taking in the pop up threads in the spvp subsection. > > > Im gonna assume you either never seen chorno's at high level in competitive game modes. Or that you started playing after PoF launched. I dont come here to troll purposely so to assume i do is your mistake. > > > > Been here since the beginning, I have not seen a high level mesmer pop a phantasm just to shatter it for no reason. > Though when you say shatter fotter I assume you are talking about rolling your face across the f keys with no rhyme or reason. > IF we are talking about shattering and then leaving those phantasms up from Chrono phantasma ( say you shatter and miss for whatever reason) then I apologize, as I consider that a strategic use of those phantasms because you still keep DPS pressure. Yes im talking making the timing so perfect on your shatters that actually activating a shatter comes just after the daze ends from chrono phantasma and for a while i believe there was one that could be done with illusions as well and not just the phantoms. I think it also had something to do with the fact that you could spawn more clone/phantoms into the world if the ones you currently had were in the transition to shatter increasing the total number you could have in the world at any instant although they were going to dive bomb your target a moment later. Mesmer is the absolute worst profession to faceroll the keyboard with xD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > Do you have a video or a source that shows how someone can get 15+ illusions and shatter in 3 seconds..because if not.. > > > **You are lying and/or trolling** > > > > Have you really never been hit with a shatter burst that breaks the animation of the clones that it just shows dead illusions laying around on the floor as if they were killed players it takes alot and i mean alot of illusions to do this. > > As far as providing a source of tools for mesmer vs other professions. All you have to do is log in and play the professions yourself. :U its odd that i would need provide a source for that unless you have not at spent any time at all on any other professions. Mesmer has its strong areas and weak areas. I would like them to fix both. > > > > Im gonna assume you either never seen chorno's at high level in competitive game modes. Or that you started playing after PoF launched. I dont come here to troll purposely so to assume i do is your mistake. > > > So, those numbers _were_ pulled out of thin air with no basis for them at all. > If you want to discuss something, try to stick to arguments about the real situations, not made up ones. 15 shatters in 3 seconds is pure fantasy. > 200% and the word optimal right behind it. Tell me how do you accurately how optimal mechanic is? It was a play on words instead of just saying VERY OPTIMAL. I think you took it toooooo literal lol. Optimal referring to how effective a person is at using the mesmer and its mechanic as a whole. Not oh if you are good you do 200% damage :unamused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > @"Rainiris.1975" said: > > > > > > > > > However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want to.... fix.... something that was.... workign as intended? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Had an arguement about this on these forums, apparently anything that is changed is not working as intended > > > > > > > So if they are changing it, guess it was broken since 2012 > > > > > > > > > > > > Correction it worked as intended in 2012 > > > > > > Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse it thus its not working as it was intended to originally in todays current meta. > > > > > > > > > > .....Even in todays current meta phantasm gameplay is not even the best or optimal for all game modes.. > > > > > Especially not 200% that you just made up. > > > > > For world bosses- I would say it offered mesmers, like engineers the ability to afk tag, But it certainly isnt the best and it especially isn't "200%" optimal. > > > > > Phantasms have worked the same, and are a used the same way since 2012. It offered a playstyle some people liked. That hasn't changed, until now. > > > > > > > > > > >Lets be real most phantasms were just shatter bomb fotter in pvp till mirage was released only then did people start whining about how useless phantasms were specifically for mirage. > > > > > > > > > > . . . . Phantasms were never ** JUST** shatter bomb fotter.. Do you play mirage in pvp? > > > > > You use a phantasm's for many different purposes ,one of the main ones being to continue damage pressure if you end up missing a shatter burst, or run into a passive that stops you from killing your target. > > > > > And to my knowledge, people weren't whining about phantasms, and from my observations havent been even with the release of PoF and mirage. > > > > > **Do you have any threads you could link to show where/how you came to this conclusion?** > > > > > > > > > > >This is also partly the devs mistake for making mirage condition so kitten strong instead of adjusting it properly like they did for most other professions in terms of stack and potency application. > > > > > > > > > > Thats a pvp issue that has little to do with phantasms, and more to do with how condition application works. Though this needs to be readjusted for multiple classes. > > > > > Burst conditions shouldn't exist and is kind of contradictory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before mirage everything was shatter as much as possible. Did you ever play choro in pvp? lol > > > > > > > Yes, and if all you did was summon a phantasm and blindly shatter you did it wrong. > > > You did it very wrong. > > > > Its just that simple. Mirage is the first profession that promotes delaying your shatter to actually make use of the illusions. > > > It was also a tactic for base mesmer when it was relevant. > > > > > > >Of course the 200% is a made up number you can really measure how optimal players use a mechanic my point was that people clearly changed what it was originally designed for from 2012 creating the problem. > > > Cool except that this wasn't changed because the players broke it and it clearly stats from the original dev post > > > > > > "However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved... " > > > > > > This change has come about because they want a more active game. Same way they changed adrenaline for warriors to not save adrenaline out of combat. > > > It is an evolutionary choice that the devs want to basically shoehorn mesmer players into. This isn't because phantasms became magically broken just a difference in vision from start to finish. > > > Thus why my original comment. Doesn't make sense to call something changed unintended if it's just a change in a different direction. Also my original comment was sarcasm... > > > Though I guess I should have put a /s behind it. > > > > > > > Of course you dont blindly shatter there was a pattern to it just like every profession has. You know what i mean. I think you are just messing with me now XD. > > You know there is a person in the mesmer forum that said in not so many words > Thief bursting from stealth is fine, but mesmer isn't.... > ( and initiative is a cooldown) > Like that was a legit arguement and they were serious, > So i do apologize but I honestly can't tell when people are joking or being completely serious in the forum and take things as the latter. > > > Of course things dont magically become broken people spend some lab time figuring out how to make them broken. This happens with any game that has any kind of competitive spirit within it. All it takes is a few hundred - thousand hours and you can make almost (loose term) anything broken. > > truth. > > The point is lets be happy they are actually taking a step to do this for one profession and I do hope that other profession follow sooner rather than later. As other professions have some serious issues going on too. That a simple fix 2 elite specs down the line wont fix. > > I'm envious you still have the ability to put faith in this balance team. > I lost it at the Revenant attempts. ok ill be honest revenant is a whole different story that profession is even more lost than necro is. Its got glint going for it i guess. Boons for everyone Boons anyone buy 2 get 2 free lol. I dont think they can fix that too easily well no thats not true. THEY COULD but likely wont because they are happy with how the 2.5 traitlines people dislike are. Anet has made some better choices in the past year and its slowly improving some times i feel like screaming "Why didnt this happen 2 years ago!" But you know XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwing.8750 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Some of us like having the option of more passive play. For the mirage you removed the dodge mechanic, so perhaps a future elite specialisation could remove the shatter mechanic i.e. a play style with always up clones. Like the scourge change to death shroud, "shatters" could enhance the clones. It would give mesmers more play variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikeIsGone.8675 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I feel like a lot of people are missing the potential of these changes. So far phantasms have been limited to fixed dmg attacks with no special effects to them. Since phantasms attack every few seconds flat DPS attacks where the best decision for balance. But with these changes a lot of new options are available. For instance, imagine a phantasm spawning a pulsing dmg field with its attack (like a lava font). Or dealing a lot of condies/boons with just its one hit. Shield 4 phantasm could give 6s of aoe quickness after a successful attack for all we know. That you can simply shatter them after their unique attack effect is simply a nice bonus. Until now, phantasms lacked any form of identity and simply were static +Xdmg every y seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"BikeIsGone.8675" said: > I feel like a lot of people are missing the potential of these changes. > So far phantasms have been limited to fixed dmg attacks with no special effects to them. Since phantasms attack every few seconds flat DPS attacks where the best decision for balance. But with these changes a lot of new options are available. For instance, imagine a phantasm spawning a pulsing dmg field with its attack (like a lava font). Or dealing a lot of condies/boons with just its one hit. Shield 4 phantasm could give 6s of aoe quickness after a successful attack for all we know. That you can simply shatter them after their unique attack effect is simply a nice bonus. Until now, phantasms lacked any form of identity and simply were static +Xdmg every y seconds. You don't shatter the phantasm. You shatter the clone it creates after completing its attack. But you make a great point. I've got my fingers crossed for axe/torch swapping staff grieving mirage to be a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Nikal.4921" said: > > @"Unknown.3976" said: > > > > The problem doesn't lie with phantasms but with the shatter mechanics, the payoff just isn't there. Shatter builds are not prevalent in PvE becuz the dmg output was too low, alot of effort for subpar dmg and now Anet is insisting that we play along with shatter builds ?? Phantasms might be passive but they have their quirks and they are what make Mesmer unique to play. Mesmer do need some sort of rework but wiping phantasm builds? Isn't quite what we expected. We shall see how this all turns out. > > > Call me less than pleased with these changes. I resent being told how to play, and that's what this feels like. They could have made Shatter builds more appealing and left Phantasm builds alone. I won't be playing Mes anymore. Phantasms in their current state are a bad mechanic shatter is fine they needed to do what they did now with phantasms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Would LOVE to see phantasmal force change to apply its dmg buff to the mesmer and isntead of phantasm attacks be it when you shatter u get the stacks and maybe more stacks when u shatter with more clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > So, those numbers _were_ pulled out of thin air with no basis for them at all. > > If you want to discuss something, try to stick to arguments about the real situations, not made up ones. 15 shatters in 3 seconds is pure fantasy. > > > > 200% and the word optimal right behind it. No, i meant the 15+ shatters in 3 secs one. As you already know, because it was what you quote, not the other thing. Basically all your arguments are based on huge exagerrations and your feelings, without ever talking about anything that actually happens in the game. Any class, build and mechanic can be claimed to be OP that way, but all those arguments simply cannot be treated seriously. Because they _aren't_ serious. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Phantasms in their current state are a bad mechanic shatter is fine they needed to do what they did now with phantasms. The reason why shatters weren't used in PvE is because they _weren't_ fine. They may be good for a single burst, but getting any decent long term sustained dps out of them is not something they were ever good at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlequin.8593 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Can't say this was the change I was hoping for. If you play a shatter build then its interesting enough but if you play any kind of phantasm build then all these "improvements" amount to is yet another case of being shoe-horned into a play style you have already chosen not use. I just fail to see how less variety is a good thing, "can't wait to see what new builds emerge" is all well and good but essentially they'll just be variations of shatter spam. While I acknowledge that there are many who enjoy that play style, I'm not sure what making that the only way to play is suppose to achieve. I don't think this change has been thought through well enough to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 The amount of people who didn't understand issues with Mesmer is really showing in this thread. I'll run down a couple of the complaints here. So for the people irritated about not having a passive build anymore, this is an action style combat MMO, you're literally asking for the anathema of the entire combat system. People complaining about WvW/PvP, phantasms are still targetable, and still squishy, you can completely nullify a damaging attack with a cooldown with your AA chain, notice that's unique only to mesmer since you can't cleave down any other damage cooldowns. WvW specifically, being mad that there's more mesmer roamers than usual is ridiculous, if roaming had a serious effect on the results of the match ups it'd probably be an actual issue. PvP specifically because I know people complain about how Mirage/Mesmer has too much of everything, Mesmer has about 5 seconds of stealth that doesn't have an overly obvious tell, Torch 4 and Decoy, count to 2 whenever they disappear and dodge, bam burst ruined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown.3976 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Nikal.4921" said: > > > @"Unknown.3976" said: > > > > > > The problem doesn't lie with phantasms but with the shatter mechanics, the payoff just isn't there. Shatter builds are not prevalent in PvE becuz the dmg output was too low, alot of effort for subpar dmg and now Anet is insisting that we play along with shatter builds ?? Phantasms might be passive but they have their quirks and they are what make Mesmer unique to play. Mesmer do need some sort of rework but wiping phantasm builds? Isn't quite what we expected. We shall see how this all turns out. > > > > > Call me less than pleased with these changes. I resent being told how to play, and that's what this feels like. They could have made Shatter builds more appealing and left Phantasm builds alone. I won't be playing Mes anymore. > > Phantasms in their current state are a bad mechanic shatter is fine they needed to do what they did now with phantasms. Oh u again with ur misleading anti-mes comments. Shatter was never a viable option in PvE; Mirage don't shatter, nor do chronomancer. Power builds don't either. Shatter builds are bad, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > The amount of people who didn't understand issues with Mesmer is really showing in this thread. I'll run down a couple of the complaints here. > > So for the people irritated about not having a passive build anymore, this is an action style combat MMO, you're literally asking for the anathema of the entire combat system. > > People complaining about WvW/PvP, phantasms are still targetable, and still squishy, you can completely nullify a damaging attack with a cooldown with your AA chain, notice that's unique only to mesmer since you can't cleave down any other damage cooldowns. WvW specifically, being mad that there's more mesmer roamers than usual is ridiculous, if roaming had a serious effect on the results of the match ups it'd probably be an actual issue. PvP specifically because I know people complain about how Mirage/Mesmer has too much of everything, Mesmer has about 5 seconds of stealth that doesn't have an overly obvious tell, Torch 4 and Decoy, count to 2 whenever they disappear and dodge, bam burst ruined. > I think it's you that doesn't understand the situation. First, PvP (WvW included) encounters are generally already based on shatters or conditions, not long sustained phantasm use (because they are usually way too short for that). Second, if Anet wants to nerf sustained dps of phantasms, they can just do that, but it will mean a significant nerf for PvE. That is not a good thing. We really don't want mesmers to get reduced to chronotanks only. Again. Alternatively, they can significantly boost burst damage (either from phantasms, shatters or both) to compensate. I don't think i need to explain the consequences of that for PvP, do i? So, while i do understand where Anet comes from, i'm not so sure the changes will not end up hurting mesmers a lot. Unles there will be way, way more work put into them than we're hearing about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > The amount of people who didn't understand issues with Mesmer is really showing in this thread. I'll run down a couple of the complaints here. > > So for the people irritated about not having a passive build anymore, this is an action style combat MMO, you're literally asking for the anathema of the entire combat system. How is it "asking for" when it was in the game for 4+ years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugabuga.9721 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"BikeIsGone.8675" said: > I feel like a lot of people are missing the potential of these changes. > So far phantasms have been limited to fixed dmg attacks with no special effects to them. Since phantasms attack every few seconds flat DPS attacks where the best decision for balance. But with these changes a lot of new options are available. For instance, imagine a phantasm spawning a pulsing dmg field with its attack (like a lava font). Or dealing a lot of condies/boons with just its one hit. Shield 4 phantasm could give 6s of aoe quickness after a successful attack for all we know. That you can simply shatter them after their unique attack effect is simply a nice bonus. Until now, phantasms lacked any form of identity and simply were static +Xdmg every y seconds. "Limited" by what? We already had some "initial effect" where the act of spawning phantasm also has a bonus action. Plus if phantasms _really_ would do any kind of significant damage, there'll be lots of screaming from thiefs in pvp "I got insta-melted by 3 lava fonts from super-combo of phantasm/phantasm/continuum split/phantasm phantasm/well of eternity/shatter, nerf immediately!". When phantasms do multiple attacks over time, it allows for a better sustained instead of burst damage. I don't know how exactly that can be converted into "only works once or twice if traited" scenario. It's like taking meteor shower of ele and combining it into one hit. Theoretically lovely. Practically it'll one-shoot almost any build in pvp that doesn't have a hard block and then will be nerfed immediately in pve as a result. Granting initial longer boon/condi also was previously changed because of corrupt/steal. That's why we have tiny pulsing quickness ticks instead of 5 or 10 second long boons. We can go back and do that time warp again -- big initial boons/condis, conversion/steal makes application useless, everything changed back to pulsing tiny stacks. For pve "no more sustained phantasms" also means either "rotation requires continuum split timing or damage is minimal" or we get mechanical "re-cast all your phantasms every 5 seconds". But hey, for constant re-casting we have clone builds, why not use those? Anyways, highly sceptical damage can be preserved without major issues :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > @"Shayd.9648" said: > > Is this going to be a loss in DPS for condi mirage in raid? This is a huge concern that has come up with my guildies since much of the sustained dps is coming from the phantasms. If it is, many of them are thinking of ditching it altogether. In my opinion that would be sad as condi mirage was almost the only viable dps for raid as a Mesmer. > We're expecting rotations to change for DPS mesmer builds. Clones builds now have more flexibility to summon phantasms, and shattering in general will be more usable, but there may be damage losses from other changes. We're looking forward to seeing what new builds appear and will continue to make adjustments if things end up too far out of line (in either direction). Why not look at Cry of Frustration? This is traditionally the condi shatter, but it's woefully undertuned in PvE (and so is mindwrack tbh). All you need to balance numbers for PvE is reduce the cd of phantasm skills to 100 blades levels of 6-8 sec cd and buff the damage appropriately, and merge cry of frustration with mindwrack for pve so it does some direct damage and applies 2 stacks of 8 sec confusion per clone. Redesign Cry of Frustration to apply aoe chill/weakness/immobilize. Either way, the change to phantasms to not undermine shatters is good for the health of the profession. Hopefully you just won't release a nerfed condi mirage and expect people to invent similarly inferior builds that are not competitive in PvE, as no other build but condi clone mirage is viable, and shatters don't provide enough condition support to compensate for the loss of clone autos+infinite horizon. People were opting for not shattering phantasms because shatters are undertuned in PvE, and mesmer autoattacks are also weak, so outside phantams sustained DPS was low. You need to understand that you have to buff shatters and mesmer attacks enough to make the loss of phantasm sustained DPS not a DPS loss. Do a balance split if you must, but the shatters need to be buffed by a lot, or clone generation cd's and shatter cooldowns need to be shaved to provide that sustained damage through shattering. Mirage will see no change from not wanting to shatter so long as you place so much power on the illusions and not the shatter themselves. Any shatter disrupts the axe clone autoattacks and infinite horizon ambush, which are a DPS loss and relies on time spent replenishing the clones (also time during which you are not receiving DPS from clone autoattacks). The main sources of damage for the mesmer should be their own autoattacks, the abilities like blurred frenzy and phantasm, and shatters. The clones themselves should merely be a resource with perhaps some side utility like a cripple or immob or boonstrip. While we're reevaluating shatters, please buff the breakbar damage diversion does (and mantra of distraction as well). It's sad how mediocre core mesmer is on breakbar damage outside a whopping 180 sec cd moa signet (not sure why it isn't a 60 sec cd in PvE, it's virtually useless outside its breakbar utility, and revenant staff does similar damage at a tiny fraction of the cd). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahfur.5612 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 That is misleading to just state "x has more x than us". Disingenuous to pretend that is the full truth. Before the mmr nerf for warrior, core warrior didn't have -quite- as many dodges as acro thief. Did that mean it was balanced? NO! Why? Because it didn't give enough up for the near infinite dodges to make it reasonable when compared to thiefs version. What did mirage give up for its endless amounts of gimmick? I'm waiting. It doesn't have a TON of each individual cheese element, but it has enough that it can effectively chain one cheese element on top of another with almost no window or time frame that allows you to do anything meaningful to the Mirage. Have you tried fighting a good mirage lately? A good thief? A good spellbreaker? The thing is with thief and spellbreaker (though still over-tuned in ways in certain situations) is that they have only a few kinds of cheese active at once. They can chain cheese but they give up -something- even if it is just range in order to do so. I am not defending this but I am stating that mirage is able to accomplish this while giving almost -nothing- up. It doesn't matter if it does smaller numbers in pve damage tests than other classes if the dps is still high enough to combo someone from full to zero or even half someones health in a second. That is TTK that should belong to far, far squishier more commit focused builds than this. It has more varieties of cheese, medium levels of each cheese.. (oh gosh, thief has more stealth? shocking!) and is able to go from one gimmick to the next. That is the problem. It goes all Kanye on your burst and interrupts it with more cheese any time you get a foothold. Unless the mirage messes up, they can effectively chain cheese endlessly. Make it give more up like the other gimmicky/cheese classes or just admit you need carry. Tired of having to spell it out to people. I play each class and see exactly what is hilariously over-tuned and I won't apologize for calling an otherwise very well balanced game out on it. Balance team gets a pat on the back once things are balanced, not once pve players are appeased. I appreciate their efforts but buffing mirage when it is already hilariously over-tuned and carry in wvw is a mistake that will just continue to kill off the already dwindling player-base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haishao.6851 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say: _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_ Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function. With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Thinking about it, couldn't they just make a trait that changes Phantasms to have the functions described in the OP? If people complain about being forced to pick a traitline for their min/max, do the reverse and make the change but add a trait that reverts the phantasms to persist and count as clones. The same can go for all your other perceived "passive cancer gameplay" like elementals, the old spirit weapons, ranger spirits, ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenndevis.8327 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I love mesmer & I'm quite interested & hyped to see what his will all change for mesmer as a whole. However I feel as if Anet isn't going the right direction with this. This feels like a "fuck phantasms, we'll give you more clones & more chances to shatter." I personally love phantasms. I love both clones & phantasms. Shatters are personally my least favorite of all the mesmer mechanics. If Anet really doesn't like passive playstyles i'd have rather had them add more ways to "control" what your phantasms do rather than they're trying to do to phantasms now. I still hope for an elite spec based on phantasms & phantasm control rather than shattering our fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Cruel.9238 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Ok, So I am playing SPVP as a GS/Staff mesmer vs a Guard. We both go down and we are both attacking each other at downed state. I have barely any change to win this since I am a power burst mesmer and the downed attack for mesmer main damage is confusion which is condi. I I didnt spec in any condi damage. The only thing that helps is the phantasms that are still up and targeting the guardian. Now since after their first attack they become clones that do practically zero damage, shall I just give up and bleed out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Unknown.3976" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Nikal.4921" said: > > > > @"Unknown.3976" said: > > > > > > > > The problem doesn't lie with phantasms but with the shatter mechanics, the payoff just isn't there. Shatter builds are not prevalent in PvE becuz the dmg output was too low, alot of effort for subpar dmg and now Anet is insisting that we play along with shatter builds ?? Phantasms might be passive but they have their quirks and they are what make Mesmer unique to play. Mesmer do need some sort of rework but wiping phantasm builds? Isn't quite what we expected. We shall see how this all turns out. > > > > > > > Call me less than pleased with these changes. I resent being told how to play, and that's what this feels like. They could have made Shatter builds more appealing and left Phantasm builds alone. I won't be playing Mes anymore. > > > > Phantasms in their current state are a bad mechanic shatter is fine they needed to do what they did now with phantasms. > > Oh u again with ur misleading anti-mes comments. Shatter was never a viable option in PvE; Mirage don't shatter, nor do chronomancer. Power builds don't either. Shatter builds are bad, period. Hence why this change happened. Not all builds need to shatter that'd be boring, its good to have abit of both but now at least power wise shattering becomes a viable mechanic for your dps. And whats exactly misleading about this lol? Someone suggested something diff from your opinion and that according to you is "Misleading Anti-Mesmer" bs. Yeah ok "Unique to play" yeah pressing 3 skills at the start of the fight and then the blurred frenzy is such a great playstyle. I'd rather get an interesting power mesmer build before the third expac and this is a great step towards that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"glenndevis.8327" said: > I love mesmer & I'm quite interested & hyped to see what his will all change for mesmer as a whole. > However I feel as if Anet isn't going the right direction with this. > > This feels like a "kitten phantasms, we'll give you more clones & more chances to shatter." > I personally love phantasms. I love both clones & phantasms. Shatters are personally my least favorite of all the mesmer mechanics. > If Anet really doesn't like passive playstyles i'd have rather had them add more ways to "control" what your phantasms do rather than they're trying to do to phantasms now. > > I still hope for an elite spec based on phantasms & phantasm control rather than shattering our fodder. They added way to control your clones with mirage this imo if done right is a welcome change since it allows u to used at least the 4 shatter skills on your bar without feeling terrible afterwards. Also yes a power spec that does what mirage does with clones but with phantasms would be quite neat imo and with a f5 being attack command to retarget your phantasms like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"Haishao.6851" said: > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say: > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_ > > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function. > > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay. The balance was always way off in favour of not shattering as shattering if not in chrono would mean that your dmg plummets. In many cases having the dmg is just as much of a utility as the daze or the distort. If your target is dead then u dont need to distort/cc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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