Shattering the Status Quo

[Blinkin The Blind.3190]

That awkward moment when you realize Mesmer is getting an overhaul and Revenants are still missing underwater skills.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Blinkin The Blind.3190" said:

> That awkward moment when you realize Mesmer is getting an overhaul and Revenants are still missing underwater skills.

 

They are just giving preview's to Mesmer because they warned us there was big changes coming.

 

We still know near nothing about what the other 8 classes are getting Tuesday.

 

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@"Robert Gee.9246"

 

It strikes me that this, and the other threads like it are absolutely full of people making snap judgements about the quality of balance they haven't even seen yet. The main thrust of many of the worries is which spec's will get buffed, or nerfed, and how hard?

 

Yet, virtually every one of these questions hinges on the question "what does confusion do now?"

 

If the changes to confuse were a basic pve/pvp split... Then we need to know to keep the speculation machine from getting out of control.

 

Gawd forbid Nike, or Brazil or whoever is popular, voices an opinion today. You may never shake off the community confirmation bias resulting from 'a popular person with a platform having an opinion.'

 

If the changes to confusion are complex, and you are not posting about them to let us digest data... I appreciate that, but many of us (especially those who understand the deeper implications of the new changes) are abstract thinkers...

Much like you must be to be a game designer. Imagine trying to do your job with zero communication from the PvP team. That missing information could cause you to spend huge amounts of time on a line of thinking that proves to be completely irrelevant once the data is in.

 

Our job as players is to enjoy the game. And the number of people fed up with the changes already is surprisingly high. I figured you'd get nothing going but thanks from a change like this.... But every person threatening to leave the game over it... Or saying 'you ruined my class' or whatever... Is hinging those negative statements on *assumptions* that you can dispel.

 

So, what exactly does confusion do?

[Godot.3259]

I am excited and concerned about these changes, it could be really really good with phantasm attacks inheriting damage modifiers and clones essentially becoming shatterfodder however, will phantasms inherit damage modifiers now? Or will their damage stay statbased. Also if they do become dependant on a mesmers added stats how does this change affect Danger Time given that the avengers are the biggest sustained source of slow(removing ICD from Lost Time?)?

And if phantasm damage scales with damage modifiers will these changes be split from PvP as it will allow for rather extreme burst damage.

 

How will this effect illusionary Defense and Compounding Power? Will these traits now be clonebased? Will they be buffed to compensate for the low survivability(I imagine it harder to maintain 3 clones than for example Unscathed Contender) of the clones or will the increases be made permanent? And how will the regen from illusionary inspiration work now that they dont persist?

 

How extensive will the changes to the illusions tree be? I am concerned that the changes might cripple the rather functional Illusions tree, it has a lot of cross trait synergy and allows for many different builds and playstyles, for example how will Persitance of Memory work now? Will the attacking swordsman inherit its own might as it becomes a clone, will that swordsman clone inherit might from another swordsman phantasm or how will that functionality work now? Can i effectively shatter as a swordsman hits, get the might, get the might from the clone if i shatter again or do i need to time it so that i shatter the instant the swordsman hits in order for the might not be wasted?

 

Sorry for the language used, im kinda tired.

 

[Lord Cruel.9238]

Ok, what will happen to the trait that respawns phantasms after they are shattered?

Also can we make something more useful out of staff skill 4?

Thanks

[Aenaos.8160]

This change will make Mesmers even more powerful in PvP and WvW,where the main source of

their power is the ability to chain shatters form stealth or while evading.

Now they won't even have to manage their illusions,and no downside for using a phantasm.

Phantasms were never an issue for any half decent player.They are easy to avoid,easy to kill,and they

make the player stand out from the illusions.

Continuing the already set trend.

Less input,more automation,more power.

[KaozeL.6431]

I know i am page 4 and obviously my oppinion doesnt count anymore but, developpers solve me just 1 stupid question i have... why u remove quickness from shield 5?

i mean, i can eat anything u give:

yes @ shatters, anyway i main chaos rotation most of the time and i know how it works

yes @ no phantasms, i can live with it dont worry

yes @ less alactity, i can deal with it

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT what was wrong with shield 5??? u want us play time warp and not moa? failing basic raid mechanics cause u cant just let shield 5 having quickness? OR maybe u believe -8 sec quickness will keep the uptime when even alac is 25% instead of 33%, that means u have with perfect rotation 6 sec downtime in quickness. Do the math, try to golem, something! OR MAYBE u think ppl with use "seize the moment" to keep quickness for themselves?

 

KITTIES, IS JUST A TRAP. Vote all NO for the changes, lets make a better community for tomorrow... our kids will live here and play with us, dont let developpers destroy what we builded with so much effort...

 

Developper dudes, i am programmer also, believe me i know how annoying i like to be when i want ppl to quit using something BUT listen how it works, seriously, take it like a small joke story... u have 1 buffer, 1 healer, and 3 trolls. You put them inside a room with a giant monster. What u think will have to be done?

Obviously the 3 trolls press whatever skills and die oneshot if something goes wrong blaming the buffer and the healer.

The healer tries to hold the trolls alive and he usually cant, blaming the buffer that is in the wrong place and buffs are not decent.

The BUFFER needs to ... tank + protect + position + buff + pull + cc + split + feedback when needs ++++++++++++++++ 1000000000000000 jobs and mechanics + deal with the trolls and the healer.

 

AND YOUR PROBLEM IN ALL THAT IS NOT THE TROLLS, NOT THE HEALER THAT IS DOING ACTUALLY NOTHING, IS THE TANKBUFFERHEALERPROTECTOR??? i am out. ty.

 

Nein

Nein

Neinnnnnnnnnn

NEEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN

 

Why are all those ppl excited for? I bet none plays mesmer here seriously and actually posts something...

 

Alactity was never a problem, idc even if u remove it from game seriously... DONT TOUCH QUICKNESS EVEN FOR 1 SECOND cause 99% of chronos out there fail everything and cant rotate, but for us (the 9-10 chronos left) please, let us enjoy the class.

 

NOT OFFENCE, NOT IRONY, pure rage attack tho, sorry.

 

Yours with love,

Chaoselle

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Aenaos.8160" said:

> This change will make Mesmers even more powerful in PvP and WvW,where the main source of

> their power is the ability to chain shatters form stealth or while evading.

> Now they won't even have to manage their illusions,and no downside for using a phantasm.

> Phantasms were never an issue for any half decent player.They are easy to avoid,easy to kill,and they

> make the player stand out from the illusions.

> Continuing the already set trend.

> Less input,more automation,more power.

 

I'm sorry but why does there have to be a downside to using a core skill? Warriors don't have a downside to burst skills, Thieves don't have a downside to using their dual-wield skills, Rangers don't have a downside to pet skills (aside from the time it takes for the pet to actually do the skill), Necromancers don't have a downside to shroud, Elementalists don't have a downside to switching attunements. Do I really need to go on? The issue wasn't whether or not they were difficult to use, the issue with phantasms is that using them means you flat out ignore your class mechanic or vice versa. And your last statement is flat out wrong. Phantasms as they are now are not more input less automation, they are literally automation, you use the phantasm and you forget about it, it does everything on its own. Now it's basically the mesmer performing the actual attack instead of hoping you can distract someone long enough for the phantasm to do anything.

[usnedward.9023]

Maybe I will take my Mesmer out of storage only hibernation and give it a shot :)

[Guizao.4167]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> A message from Robert Gee, Guild Wars 2 Systems Team:

>

> Today I wanted to give you all a heads up on some important changes coming to the mesmer profession in the coming update. These changes affect phantasms, which are a core part of the mesmer profession mechanic (illusions) and as a result, will have a large effect on how the mesmer profession plays after the update.

>

> In one sentence, these changes can be summed up as, "Phantasms become clones after their initial attack."

>

> Here are the specific details of how it works:

>

> - Phantasms no longer will persist indefinitely. Instead, a phantasm will attack once and then automatically be destroyed. If interrupted during its attack the phantasm also will be destroyed.

> - Phantasms still can be targeted by skills and take damage while alive. Phantasms can be destroyed by damaging skills before they finish their attack.

> - A destroyed phantasm will be replaced with a clone based on your current weapon set. This clone will spawn regardless of how the phantasm was destroyed. The clone is spawned at the location of the phantasm at the time it was destroyed.

> - Shatter skills no longer destroy phantasms, and phantasms no longer count towards the maximum illusion limit.

>

> This is a pretty large gameplay shift so I wanted to talk a little bit about why we are doing this and what it means for your mesmer gameplay.

>

> ## The Illusion of Choice

>

> Mesmers always have had a tension between clones and phantasms; this tension was designed into the profession when the game launched. The idea was that shattering clones would be good for burst damage while leaving phantasms active would be an option for sustained damage. Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer.

>

> However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

>

> ## Mirrored Gameplay

>

> In the past, we've made some corrections to professions with this type gameplay as seen with the changes to the warrior's Adrenal Health and Berserker's Power traits, which previously rewarded saving adrenaline over spending it. Phantasms are a mechanic entirely based on discouraging the use of shatter skills and as a result, correcting this has touched a larger number of skills and traits than it did for warrior. However our primary goal with these changes is the same: to create a more active profession gameplay loop that rewards spending profession resources over saving them. For mesmer this means play patterns which revolve around generating and shattering clones while phantasms can be summoned for utility, bursts of damage, or some combination of the two.

>

> ## Power Return

>

> Because the power level of phantasm skills and traits usually assume that the phantasm will not be destroyed immediately, we have done an extensive balance pass on all skills and traits related to phantasms as well as several related traits and skills. We've also taken this opportunity to re-evaluate some of the under-performing phantasms to rework them into more impactful skills. For example, the Phantasmal Defender skill now taunts foes instead of buffing allies and the Phantasmal Warlock skill summons two phantasms, each with a new attack.

>

> ## Phantasmal Feedback

>

> While we're committed to making this change to phantasms as we feel it will improve the gameplay health of the mesmer profession, we also recognize that there will be an adjustment period where players will need to adapt to these changes. This is one of the largest changes we've undertaken for a single profession short of creating new specializations, and we realize that it may be jarring to some players. We'll be watching the feedback on our official forums after these changes go live and make adjustments where necessary.

>

> P.S. I'm sure that at least a few of you are wondering what this phantasm change means for Chronomancers in raids because the phantasmal avenger is a key component of keeping up alacrity for the party. For more information, please read today's [forum post about alacity](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26685/alacrity-time-for-a-change "forum post about alacity").

 

Since mesmer is my 2nd main class, I'm very curious and excited to see these new stuff. By the way, do you guys plan to "preview" or talk about the other professions before Tuesday's patch? @ArenaNet @"Robert Gee.9246"

[Xstein.2187]

Thanks Gee! Yes, I am both excited and nervous as well. I don't expect it to turn out perfects right out of the gate. However, I also hope its not a disaster.

 

Concerns:

 

1. Many of the other traits people have mentioned: Empowered Illusions, Illusionary defense + compounding power (clones are pretty squishy, even in pve), Persisting images, Protected phantasms, Persistence of Memory, Phantasmal Haste, Phantasmal Force.

 

2. Will Alls well that ends well end up just being a trait that negates the nerf? (So not really a trait at all, just a necessary filler-like Speed of Sand)

 

3. Since illusion uptime will be nerfed through Chronophantasma, will Illusionary Reversion at least be un-nerfed to make up for it?

 

4. Will base mesmer builds produce enough dps for those who are new to the game and just leveling mesmer? Will their initial experience of base mesmer be ruined?

 

5. Will removing phantasms lock mirage into the only viable dps build, for now and into the future, since clones are the only sustained portion now.

 

6. Will phantasm skills have their cool downs reduced (they are quite long now compared to the skills of other classes due to their sustained nature). Lowering cool downs could also make the class more interactive.

 

7. Will these changes make clone generating skills too necessary? For example, people once complained that deceptive evasion was a necessary trait in the past in pvp for illusion generation. Will that turn out to be the case again in the future with these changes (even in pve) since shatters will become more important?

 

8. Will auto attack damage be increased to help compensate?

[Spurnshadow.3678]

While this all sounds interesting and could be an improvement, I have to take objection to one thing:

 

> However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

>

This is totally not true. This never happens in WvW. Even when roaming, there's maybe one roaming build that might use this type of play style. This is almost never done in PvP either. This is never done in open world PvE because enemies die fast and there's no point in waiting for clones to go through their cycle without shattering them. The only place this is done is in raids. The biggest reason why this type of play style isn't used in PvP and WvW is solely due to power creep. This is even the case in some PvE scenarios. Phantasms are just destroyed too fast, so it's better to shatter them and gain the extra damage. But this power creep doesn't exist in raids; phantasms don't die.

 

So don't throw shine here. It seems you (Anet, not Gale) is looking at only raid data. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that changes weren't needed or wanted. Maybe this will be a better way to go, maybe not. But it concerns me if the premise to these changes are the above statement.

[Kierkess.1652]

Exciting changes indeed

but let's be real one second, pvp was always broken because anet still has no idea what to do, we all know how they "balance" their class.

it will be nostalgic, I'll get my last place in the dps meter back and the only reason to ever take a mesmer in raid is just wiped off

I'll sure enjoy doing more apm than other classes to get a lower dps, good thing pof is well optimized, micro freezes in events won't trash down my gameplay and make me useless at all, how great!

[Haishao.6851]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> - Phantasms no longer will persist indefinitely.

Phantams never persisted indefinitely.

We have to target an enemy to cast them and they shatter as soon as their target dies.

 

 

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

> @"Jojo.6140" said:

> Can someone explain why active gameplay is considered better than passive gameplay? Some people might enjoy a more laid-back and chilled gaming-experience, why would that be bad?

 

1) It's an action MMO

2) "Chilling gaming experience" aka "I don't want to press buttons or try my best but still wishing to perform as much as any other try hard out there!" should not be tolerated. Choice of one class to play should not be privileged over other choices.

 

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Blinkin The Blind.3190" said:

> > That awkward moment when you realize Mesmer is getting an overhaul and Revenants are still missing underwater skills.

>

> They are just giving preview's to Mesmer because they warned us there was big changes coming.

>

> We still know near nothing about what the other 8 classes are getting Tuesday.

>

By the looks of that "Biggest change to a single profession so far" I can tell nothing exactly is gonna change for Revenant. Except for Ventari perhaps

 

[Rodrick.1942]

> @"KaozeL.6431" said:

> I know i am page 4 and obviously my oppinion doesnt count anymore but, developpers solve me just 1 stupid question i have... why u remove quickness from shield 5?

> i mean, i can eat anything u give:

> yes @ shatters, anyway i main chaos rotation most of the time and i know how it works

> yes @ no phantasms, i can live with it dont worry

> yes @ less alactity, i can deal with it

> BUT BUT BUT BUT BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT what was wrong with shield 5??? u want us play time warp and not moa? failing basic raid mechanics cause u cant just let shield 5 having quickness? OR maybe u believe -8 sec quickness will keep the uptime when even alac is 25% instead of 33%, that means u have with perfect rotation 6 sec downtime in quickness. Do the math, try to golem, something! OR MAYBE u think ppl with use "seize the moment" to keep quickness for themselves?

>

> KITTIES, IS JUST A TRAP. Vote all NO for the changes, lets make a better community for tomorrow... our kids will live here and play with us, dont let developpers destroy what we builded with so much effort...

>

> Developper dudes, i am programmer also, believe me i know how annoying i like to be when i want ppl to quit using something BUT listen how it works, seriously, take it like a small joke story... u have 1 buffer, 1 healer, and 3 trolls. You put them inside a room with a giant monster. What u think will have to be done?

> Obviously the 3 trolls press whatever skills and die oneshot if something goes wrong blaming the buffer and the healer.

> The healer tries to hold the trolls alive and he usually cant, blaming the buffer that is in the wrong place and buffs are not decent.

> The BUFFER needs to ... tank + protect + position + buff + pull + cc + split + feedback when needs ++++++++++++++++ 1000000000000000 jobs and mechanics + deal with the trolls and the healer.

>

> AND YOUR PROBLEM IN ALL THAT IS NOT THE TROLLS, NOT THE HEALER THAT IS DOING ACTUALLY NOTHING, IS THE TANKBUFFERHEALERPROTECTOR??? i am out. ty.

>

> Nein

> Nein

> Neinnnnnnnnnn

> NEEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN

>

> Why are all those ppl excited for? I bet none plays mesmer here seriously and actually posts something...

>

> Alactity was never a problem, idc even if u remove it from game seriously... DONT TOUCH QUICKNESS EVEN FOR 1 SECOND cause 99% of chronos out there fail everything and cant rotate, but for us (the 9-10 chronos left) please, let us enjoy the class.

>

> NOT OFFENCE, NOT IRONY, pure rage attack tho, sorry.

>

> Yours with love,

> Chaoselle

 

Now u know how I feel when they made changes to warrior. Back to this thread, chrono has been dominated the entire game far too long since the first day of HOT release. Chrono was a great design , but its convenience start to poison this game, even with the release of new elite spec still can't break this balance (support FB, condi or support ren). You may think other class is not of your business, but for the game itself, let one class get too much attention is never a good thing. So whatever u like or not , be ready to be reshuffled .

[Frostfang.5109]

Sound interesting as it fits my current play style!

 

Will condi builds still work equally well?

[Hitman.5829]

Ok, ok, but what are you going to do to address the perma evade, perma dodge mesmer? Is the break stun on dodge going to be nerfed or is the mesmer going to continue to face roll everyone?

 

Mesmer has to much mobility, too much evade, to much stealth, to much stun break. Tell us what are you going to do to fix mesmer?

Changing how phantasms work will not nerf mirrage at all!

[Meridian.9103]

I am very disappointed that the whole explanation/justification is pve centric.

[Link.1049]

So... are they playtesting this in PVP at all...this sounds game breaking.

[Zoser.7245]

> @"Robert Gee.9246":

About Chronophantasma and with illusions remaining the same health. Depending of the situation, phantasms rarely survive to perform a whole attack, so imagine survive to perform two... while before you could use that trait to boost a combo of several shatters by itself or together with Ilusionary Reversion. So it's good for some situations (+pve) and bad for others when your phantasm die too fast, WvW, PvP... only been able to perform one shatter after he dies and the clone is spawned. If we are promoting the shatters... But ok, I imagine that not all can be perfect and we still don't have all details. All in all, thanks for the hard work, although I'm a bit afraid about the destiny of the confusion...

 

[LeopFolkner.2369]

So, Basically dual Chrono is out of Meta and now we have to endure Raid Bosses getting Enrage more often while also having an useless skill in our traits? Signet of inspiration will regain the ability to Buff the whole squad at least? will we at least get a DECENT buff on Clones and Shatters? I hope I misunderstood both threads

[CMinnett.2375]

> This is what I mean....

>

>

 

*sobs uncontrollably*

I miss all my controllers!

[messiah.1908]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

>

> - Phantasms no longer will persist indefinitely. Instead, a phantasm will attack once and then automatically be destroyed. If interrupted during its attack the phantasm also will be destroyed.

> - Phantasms still can be targeted by skills and take damage while alive. Phantasms can be destroyed by damaging skills before they finish their attack.

> - A destroyed phantasm will be replaced with a clone based on your current weapon set. This clone will spawn regardless of how the phantasm was destroyed. The clone is spawned at the location of the phantasm at the time it was destroyed.

> - Shatter skills no longer destroy phantasms, and phantasms no longer count towards the maximum illusion limit.

 

in wvw and pvp phantasms are easily destroyed or evades. so it means huge nerf to them. will you raise the dmg to compensate ?

it will require more tactic game to use the phantasm in the right moment which is good so maybe mesmer need faster activation time to phantasm skills (most are 0.75-1 sec which need maybe 0.5 sec now).

or maybe build in it 1 sec distortion instead of the unused trait protected phantasm. this change will force enemies to dodge or evade or block the phantasm attack.

please rethink of it.

 

changing phantasm to clone is great. it will create more tactic gameplay. also you can build 3 phantasm and 3 clones??? (theoretically) so would it be possible to create 3 phantasms time it after their attacks to shatter them as clones and before of it create 3 clones and shatter them before the phantasms attack. it could ended it huge 8-10 clones burst (the player is a clone also)

 

please test this possibility

 

 

 

[Zaidya.6138]

If the phantasms won't count for Shattering, will there be 3 clones up plus the phantasm? or does a phantasm still replace a clone if 3 up? :(