Shattering the Status Quo

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > The amount of people who didn't understand issues with Mesmer is really showing in this thread. I'll run down a couple of the complaints here.

> >

> > So for the people irritated about not having a passive build anymore, this is an action style combat MMO, you're literally asking for the anathema of the entire combat system.

> >

> > People complaining about WvW/PvP, phantasms are still targetable, and still squishy, you can completely nullify a damaging attack with a cooldown with your AA chain, notice that's unique only to mesmer since you can't cleave down any other damage cooldowns. WvW specifically, being mad that there's more mesmer roamers than usual is ridiculous, if roaming had a serious effect on the results of the match ups it'd probably be an actual issue. PvP specifically because I know people complain about how Mirage/Mesmer has too much of everything, Mesmer has about 5 seconds of stealth that doesn't have an overly obvious tell, Torch 4 and Decoy, count to 2 whenever they disappear and dodge, bam burst ruined.

> >

> I think it's you that doesn't understand the situation. First, PvP (WvW included) encounters are generally already based on shatters or conditions, not long sustained phantasm use (because they are usually way too short for that). Second, if Anet wants to nerf sustained dps of phantasms, they can just do that, but it will mean a significant nerf for PvE. That is not a good thing. We really don't want mesmers to get reduced to chronotanks only. Again. Alternatively, they can significantly boost burst damage (either from phantasms, shatters or both) to compensate. I don't think i need to explain the consequences of that for PvP, do i?

>

> So, while i do understand where Anet comes from, i'm not so sure the changes will not end up hurting mesmers a lot. Unles there will be way, way more work put into them than we're hearing about.

>

>

 

They dont need to buff the dmg phantasms do or the dmg shatters do in pvp/wvw as both of those things are fine. U are keeping the phantasms aline in pvp anyways not that you even can keep them up for that matter. The dmg buff to either the phantasms or the shatters as well as the cd reduction obviously needs to happen in pve since thats the point of the change. I personally hope its a cd reduction so the become more spammable in pve which gives you more excuses to spawn clones and more excuses to shatter.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > The amount of people who didn't understand issues with Mesmer is really showing in this thread. I'll run down a couple of the complaints here.

> >

> > So for the people irritated about not having a passive build anymore, this is an action style combat MMO, you're literally asking for the anathema of the entire combat system.

> >

> > People complaining about WvW/PvP, phantasms are still targetable, and still squishy, you can completely nullify a damaging attack with a cooldown with your AA chain, notice that's unique only to mesmer since you can't cleave down any other damage cooldowns. WvW specifically, being mad that there's more mesmer roamers than usual is ridiculous, if roaming had a serious effect on the results of the match ups it'd probably be an actual issue. PvP specifically because I know people complain about how Mirage/Mesmer has too much of everything, Mesmer has about 5 seconds of stealth that doesn't have an overly obvious tell, Torch 4 and Decoy, count to 2 whenever they disappear and dodge, bam burst ruined.

> >

> I think it's you that doesn't understand the situation. First, PvP (WvW included) encounters are generally already based on shatters or conditions, not long sustained phantasm use (because they are usually way too short for that). Second, if Anet wants to nerf sustained dps of phantasms, they can just do that, but it will mean a significant nerf for PvE. That is not a good thing. We really don't want mesmers to get reduced to chronotanks only. Again. Alternatively, they can significantly boost burst damage (either from phantasms, shatters or both) to compensate. I don't think i need to explain the consequences of that for PvP, do i?

>

> So, while i do understand where Anet comes from, i'm not so sure the changes will not end up hurting mesmers a lot. Unles there will be way, way more work put into them than we're hearing about.

>

>

 

For your first point, that's not what I said at all. I'm seeing a lot of sentiment that people think mesmer needs to be an either/or situation for phantasms vs. shatters which is what it has been. It is more of a PvE centric issue, but before Mirage came along the optimal mode of play was Auto Attack after summoning 3 phantasms. You're saying it'll be a nerf for PvE and we don't have any concrete numbers yet. If you've paid attention to to the current PvE situation, the Mirage Clone build is actually better than the phantasm build, if anything it's Chronotank that would theoretically be in more danger since alacrity uptime was dependent on having 3 shield phantasms up. As far as PvP related effects, I could care less at this point, it's a shitshow every season and Mesmer as usual is a target since apparently we have infinite stealth, invuln, evades, and cc along with condiburst, which is a fair problem, but they did mention confusion changes, I assume for sPvP only since that's the main area of complaint. And as for WvW most of the complaints are about roaming, which has such a minimal effect on the outcome of WvW matchups that's it absurd to make such a fuss about it.

 

I know the general sentiment is to not trust ANet with balance changes literally ever, but the fact that they recognize the issue with how conflicting phantasms were with the main class mechanic is pretty big stride.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > The amount of people who didn't understand issues with Mesmer is really showing in this thread. I'll run down a couple of the complaints here.

> >

> > So for the people irritated about not having a passive build anymore, this is an action style combat MMO, you're literally asking for the anathema of the entire combat system.

>

> How is it "asking for" when it was in the game for 4+ years?

>

 

Asking for it to remain. Seriously, that's how nitpicky you wanted to be about it?

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Haishao.6851" said:

> What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say:

> _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_

>

> Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function.

>

> With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay.

 

There wasn't a choice. The most optimal strategy is to AA and sit there with 3 phantasms up, making Mesmer have an excruciating ramp up time. And if you needed to sacrifice 3 phantasms for a Daze or Distortion I doubt there was much actual choice involved (is the entire group gonna wipe or will I absolutely die) since your damage is mega gimped for the next 30 seconds or so. Ignoring the class mechanic is a symptom of flawed design and they're trying to rectify it.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

> @"Bugabuga.9721" said:

>

> Granting initial longer boon/condi also was previously changed because of corrupt/steal. That's why we have tiny pulsing quickness ticks instead of 5 or 10 second long boons. We can go back and do that time warp again -- big initial boons/condis, conversion/steal makes application useless, everything changed back to pulsing tiny stacks.

>

> For pve "no more sustained phantasms" also means either "rotation requires continuum split timing or damage is minimal" or we get mechanical "re-cast all your phantasms every 5 seconds". But hey, for constant re-casting we have clone builds, why not use those?

>

> Anyways, highly sceptical damage can be preserved without major issues :(

 

The thing why current phantasms only do tiny stacks of boons/conditions is not because of some steal mechanic...its because they apply these stacks with each and every attack. Which is why (similar to thieves with their initiative system) you cant have powerful skills or Hard CC or whatever on phantasm' attacks.

With these changes however, you can.

It doesn't matter how long the phantasm persists if its initial attack is powerful enough to be the reason to use it.

 

Edit: think of it as a completely new/unique spell that just happens to spawn a clone to fuel your profession mechanic as well.

 

[Kel.9406]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> There wasn't a choice. The most optimal strategy is to AA and sit there with 3 phantasms up, making Mesmer have an excruciating ramp up time. And if you needed to sacrifice 3 phantasms for a Daze or Distortion I doubt there was much actual choice involved (is the entire group gonna wipe or will I absolutely die) since your damage is mega kitten for the next 30 seconds or so. Ignoring the class mechanic is a symptom of flawed design and they're trying to rectify it.

 

From the developer:

"The idea was that shattering clones would be good for burst damage while leaving phantasms active would be an option for sustained damage. Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."

 

 

 

It is always a choice to shatter or not to shatter. What wrong with passive gameplay? IMO ranger bearbow and MM necro are also passive gameplay. Are ANET going to change their core mechanic as well?

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Kel.9406" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > There wasn't a choice. The most optimal strategy is to AA and sit there with 3 phantasms up, making Mesmer have an excruciating ramp up time. And if you needed to sacrifice 3 phantasms for a Daze or Distortion I doubt there was much actual choice involved (is the entire group gonna wipe or will I absolutely die) since your damage is mega kitten for the next 30 seconds or so. Ignoring the class mechanic is a symptom of flawed design and they're trying to rectify it.

>

> From the developer:

> "The idea was that shattering clones would be good for burst damage while leaving phantasms active would be an option for sustained damage. Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."

>

>

>

> It is always a choice to shatter or not to shatter. What wrong with passive gameplay? IMO ranger bearbow and MM necro are also passive gameplay. Are ANET going to change their core mechanic as well?

>

Hence why bear bow is used literally only in open world and is terrible to anything group related. Also mm necro was nerfed back in hot.

 

[Haishao.6851]

 

 

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Haishao.6851" said:

> > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say:

> > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_

> >

> > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function.

> >

> > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay.

>

> There wasn't a choice. The most optimal strategy is to AA and sit there with 3 phantasms up, making Mesmer have an excruciating ramp up time. And if you needed to sacrifice 3 phantasms for a Daze or Distortion I doubt there was much actual choice involved (is the entire group gonna wipe or will I absolutely die) since your damage is mega kitten for the next 30 seconds or so. Ignoring the class mechanic is a symptom of flawed design and they're trying to rectify it.

 

Most optimal strategy against what?

Mesmer have shit DPS regardless so shattering the phantasms really doesn't make such a huge difference in the end. Obliterating a defiance bar or evading attacks for 3 seconds is way more advantageous than just doing a bit more shitty damage. Especially if all you do is spamming 1.

 

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Haishao.6851" said:

> > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say:

> > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_

> >

> > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function.

> >

> > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay.

>

> The balance was always way off in favour of not shattering as shattering if not in chrono would mean that your dmg plummets. In many cases having the dmg is just as much of a utility as the daze or the distort. If your target is dead then u dont need to distort/cc.

 

It really depends how you play. Maybe against small mobs it's better to just keep the phantasm out but when fighting bosses you usually need the CC or distortion. Except maybe core champs, but the problem is the monsters, not mesmer.

 

Is it a fractal and raid thing to just spam 1 while having your phantasms out? If so they should make the content of those places actually good instead of turning the class into stupid brainless cloneshatter spam.

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Kel.9406" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > There wasn't a choice. The most optimal strategy is to AA and sit there with 3 phantasms up, making Mesmer have an excruciating ramp up time. And if you needed to sacrifice 3 phantasms for a Daze or Distortion I doubt there was much actual choice involved (is the entire group gonna wipe or will I absolutely die) since your damage is mega kitten for the next 30 seconds or so. Ignoring the class mechanic is a symptom of flawed design and they're trying to rectify it.

>

> From the developer:

> "The idea was that shattering clones would be good for burst damage while leaving phantasms active would be an option for sustained damage. Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."

>

>

>

> It is always a choice to shatter or not to shatter. What wrong with passive gameplay? IMO ranger bearbow and MM necro are also passive gameplay. Are ANET going to change their core mechanic as well?

>

 

**Was intended.** Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. Mesmer most notably flat out ignored their profession mechanic, which is a really really poor design along with the litany of issues coming with the nature of phantasms anyway, e.g. you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace, if a skill created a clone it goes unused because phantasms.

 

The difference between the core mechanic of Mesmer and bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer is that bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer aren't directly hampered by utilizing their class mechanic, they don't have to flat out ignore it to continue doing anything notable (not that either build is notable anyway). If you want a really good example of how cancerous passive gameplay can be, just remember how flat out boring and uninteresting it was to fight against a PU mesmer back when clone death traits still existed.

 

@Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS." Yeah in raids and fractals for a long time on bosses the strategy was AA and have 3 phantasms up, Mesmer didn't even have a DPS spot in raids for a long time, and the first one the emerged was that boring AF AA and 3 phantasm strategy. It wasn't the raid content that was the issue, it was that Mesmer was so poorly equipped to do anything that required a damage check so why bother wasting a DPS slot on them. Basically anything with a large health pool required that strategy unless you liked being a generally ineffective although sparkly and purple character. It's been an issue plaguing PvE Mesmer basically until Mirage came out. And as far as your argument about 'obliterating defiance bars and evading for 3 seconds', you can dodge too without gutting your DPS and the actual break bar damage that Diversion does isn't worth the 30 seconds of ramp up time to get 3 phantasms out again, if CC is your concern it's way more advantageous to just toss Tides of Time since it does double the amount and applied quickness or use Gravity Well. And if you're using Mirage then it's irrelevant.

 

Also, where on Earth did you get the idea that phantasms were more than just damage bots? That's literally their only function aside from the utility phantasms (niche uses only) or the shield phantasm (literally the only always useful support phantasm).

[Deyneris.5216]

This is the most disgusting, arbitrary, abusive thing I've ever experienced in guild wars in over 10 years of playing. Radical changes made, not for balance, not because a class was OP (because Lord knows you've nerfed mesmer into oblivion since release), but because people weren't playing it they way you wanted? And what do y'all do? You don't improve the mechanic you want people to play (shatter) to make it more enticing. No, you decide that it's perfectly okay to trash the way _**people decide they enjoy playing the game**_. Pick the longest string of Shakespearean insults you can muster that includes words like vile maggot scum and consider yourselves sworn at. Mesmer has been my favorite class, despite how many times you've crippled and incapacitated the builds I've made; but this? This is beyond the pale. I've always thought that people who rage quit were childish -- but I think I may have hit my limit-- such micromanaging of your player base is unacceptable. You started with a great concept and noble ideas about player interactions, but change after change after change you've made the game less and less enjoyable, and you've never respected your players--particularly your long term players.

[Deyneris.5216]

> @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said:

> Right, but discouraging passive gameplay is nevertheless a good thing. I'd say if you want passive gameplay, go watch a YouTube gamer do his thing. That's about as passive as it gets.

 

You know some people who play a slightly more passive style have arthritic hands.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> I know the general sentiment is to not trust ANet with balance changes literally ever, but the fact that they recognize the issue with how conflicting phantasms were with the main class mechanic is pretty big stride.

The main problem is that they were conflicting with that mechanic for the simple reason that this mechanic was just so bad. I just can't shake the feeling that it's again the 1st year balance approach, the one that, for ranger, tried to make longbow (which was much, much worse then than it's now) viable... by nerfing shortbow into the ground. Which didn't work, longbow was still subpar, but additionally so was shortbow. The class just got simply diminished then (but then it was a normal occurence for rangers every balance patch until Druid came along). Eventually they ended buffing those two weapons back up again, fortunately, but it took them years to do that.

I'd rather not see the new mesmer to end up with bad phantasms _and_ bad shatters, and then have to wait years to get balanced.

 

And if you want to balance damage without nerfing it, or having to do massive skill splits between modes, it's better to move towards stable, sustained damage, not towards high dps bursts. You don't want the pvp dps of the class to be based around oneshots, because either they will be highly telegraphed and easy to avoid (in which case the class will be useless), or not (in which case the class will be op).

 

 

[Kel.9406]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> **Was intended.** Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. Mesmer most notably flat out ignored their profession mechanic, which is a really really poor design along with the litany of issues coming with the nature of phantasms anyway, e.g. you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace, if a skill created a clone it goes unused because phantasms.

>

> The difference between the core mechanic of Mesmer and bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer is that bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer aren't directly hampered by utilizing their class mechanic, they don't have to flat out ignore it to continue doing anything notable (not that either build is notable anyway). If you want a really good example of how cancerous passive gameplay can be, just remember how flat out boring and uninteresting it was to fight against a PU mesmer back when clone death traits still existed.

>

 

Bearbow ranger and MM necro have a choice of not utilizing their class mechanic- > passive gameplay. ANET is proposing changing to mesmer is to force us to spam F1-F4.

This is not rewarding active gameplay, but restricting gameplay.

 

 

[Deyneris.5216]

> @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> How will this new change be limiting at all? And who said shattering would become mandatory?

Yes, cuz it's so useful to have clones out that do ZERO damage.

 

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Deyneris.5216" said:

> > @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> > How will this new change be limiting at all? And who said shattering would become mandatory?

> Yes, cuz it's so useful to have clones out that do ZERO damage.

 

In that context, I'm curious how clones on condi weapons will be balanced against clones on power weapons. With the current mechanics, power clones are nothing but fodder for shatter skills, while condi clones can do quite some damage on their own.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Kel.9406" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > **Was intended.** Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. Mesmer most notably flat out ignored their profession mechanic, which is a really really poor design along with the litany of issues coming with the nature of phantasms anyway, e.g. you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace, if a skill created a clone it goes unused because phantasms.

> >

> > The difference between the core mechanic of Mesmer and bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer is that bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer aren't directly hampered by utilizing their class mechanic, they don't have to flat out ignore it to continue doing anything notable (not that either build is notable anyway). If you want a really good example of how cancerous passive gameplay can be, just remember how flat out boring and uninteresting it was to fight against a PU mesmer back when clone death traits still existed.

> >

>

> Bearbow ranger and MM necro have a choice of not utilizing their class mechanic- > passive gameplay. ANET is proposing changing to mesmer is to force us to spam F1-F4.

> This is not rewarding active gameplay, but restricting gameplay.

>

>

 

Mesmer didn't have a choice whereas the other two do, it's damage or class mechanic, pick one. Spamming F1-F4 is a mischaracterization since the impression I'm getting from you is that any use of it is spamming it. What's more restricting? Poor class design that pits core mechanics against each other, or the ability to work them in together? It should be obvious no? Although it seems your argument consists of, "Why can't i just sit back and do nothing while the phantasms do all the work?" Which is a really stupid thing to have in an action combat MMO. Oh no, you actually might have to use your class mechanic, what a tragedy.

 

You also didn't address the entire first paragraph so I'm assuming you don't have anything to actually back up your argument since sitting there with 3 phantasms out and auto attacking is not only passive, but boring and uninteresting, unless you really really enjoy tunneling one enemy and being useless for 30 seconds when it died.

[Kel.9406]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

>

> Mesmer didn't have a choice whereas the other two do, it's damage or class mechanic, pick one. Spamming F1-F4 is a mischaracterization since the impression I'm getting from you is that any use of it is spamming it. What's more restricting? Poor class design that pits core mechanics against each other, or the ability to work them in together? It should be obvious no? Although it seems your argument consists of, "Why can't i just sit back and do nothing while the phantasms do all the work?" Which is a really stupid thing to have in an action combat MMO. Oh no, you actually might have to use your class mechanic, what a tragedy.

>

> You also didn't address the entire first paragraph so I'm assuming you don't have anything to actually back up your argument since sitting there with 3 phantasms out and auto attacking is not only passive, but boring and uninteresting, unless you really really enjoy tunneling one enemy and being useless for 30 seconds when it died.

 

"Mesmer didn't have a choice whereas the other two do, it's damage or class mechanic, pick one. "

"Which is a really stupid thing to have in an action combat MMO. Oh no, you actually might have to use your class mechanic, what a tragedy."

Aren't you contradicting yourself? So why does other class/profession have a choice not to use class mechanic but not mesmer?

 

 

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > **Was intended.** Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. Mesmer most notably flat out ignored their profession mechanic, which is a really really poor design along with the litany of issues coming with the nature of phantasms anyway, e.g. you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace, if a skill created a clone it goes unused because phantasms.

> > >

Alright let me address your first paragraph. -> This is not rewarding active gameplay, but restricting gameplay.

"you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace," -> Are you saying clones can do all these?

You are giving the impression that all mesmer build only consist of 3 phantasms out and auto attacking which to you is boring and uninteresting. There are mesmer shatter builds that utilize their class mechanic. If you want exciting and interesting gameplay, choose shatter/ambush builds!

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Haishao.6851" said:

>

>

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Haishao.6851" said:

> > > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say:

> > > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_

> > >

> > > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function.

> > >

> > > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay.

> >

> > There wasn't a choice. The most optimal strategy is to AA and sit there with 3 phantasms up, making Mesmer have an excruciating ramp up time. And if you needed to sacrifice 3 phantasms for a Daze or Distortion I doubt there was much actual choice involved (is the entire group gonna wipe or will I absolutely die) since your damage is mega kitten for the next 30 seconds or so. Ignoring the class mechanic is a symptom of flawed design and they're trying to rectify it.

>

> Most optimal strategy against what?

> Mesmer have kitten DPS regardless so shattering the phantasms really doesn't make such a huge difference in the end. Obliterating a defiance bar or evading attacks for 3 seconds is way more advantageous than just doing a bit more kitten damage. Especially if all you do is spamming 1.

>

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Haishao.6851" said:

> > > What bother me as much as them thinking phantasm persist indefinitely, is they say:

> > > _"Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer."_

> > >

> > > Choosing whether or not to shatter is exactly how it is with Phantasm build. We need to make decision because shattering our phantasm means a lot less damage and we miss their effect. But shatter also have important needed, potentially life saving, functions like daze and distortion. It is important to use shatter and it is important to keep phantasm out. So we have to make the decision of whether to shatter or not at all time. We also have to decide which phantasm to use because they're all different, unlike clones, and definitely not just damage bots like the Gee man seems to think. For example you don't use warden on a target that moves a lot, unless all you need is the reflect function.

> > >

> > > With clone there's no decision to make. They serve no other purpose than to be shattered. In PvP they can maybe fool some, but in PvE that just cannot happen. Monsters are programs, they don't get fooled. We just make clones to shatter them, then make clones again, to shatter them as soon as they are up. Clone shatter build is the "swing a sword" of mesmer gameplay.

> >

> > The balance was always way off in favour of not shattering as shattering if not in chrono would mean that your dmg plummets. In many cases having the dmg is just as much of a utility as the daze or the distort. If your target is dead then u dont need to distort/cc.

>

> It really depends how you play. Maybe against small mobs it's better to just keep the phantasm out but when fighting bosses you usually need the CC or distortion. Except maybe core champs, but the problem is the monsters, not mesmer.

>

> Is it a fractal and raid thing to just spam 1 while having your phantasms out? If so they should make the content of those places actually good instead of turning the class into stupid brainless cloneshatter spam.

>

 

Distort sure but chrono was doing it because chronophantasma and vs small mobs u always shatter since they will be low after the phantasms unload and u use a weapon skill or 2. The content is fine its literally the best we had in years mesmer is what needed a change its dmging options were just too limited due to the huge punish from shattering. Before pof power phantasm mesmer was sitting around 31k which was respectable for the time considering the mesmer could go elsewhere and do mechanics while phantasms continue to attack.

[zealex.9410]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Deyneris.5216" said:

> > > @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> > > How will this new change be limiting at all? And who said shattering would become mandatory?

> > Yes, cuz it's so useful to have clones out that do ZERO damage.

>

> In that context, I'm curious how clones on condi weapons will be balanced against clones on power weapons. With the current mechanics, power clones are nothing but fodder for shatter skills, while condi clones can do quite some damage on their own.

 

I believe only the axe clones are actually able to scale their dmg with your stats, iirc scepter clones arent capable of that.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Kel.9406" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> >

> > Mesmer didn't have a choice whereas the other two do, it's damage or class mechanic, pick one. Spamming F1-F4 is a mischaracterization since the impression I'm getting from you is that any use of it is spamming it. What's more restricting? Poor class design that pits core mechanics against each other, or the ability to work them in together? It should be obvious no? Although it seems your argument consists of, "Why can't i just sit back and do nothing while the phantasms do all the work?" Which is a really stupid thing to have in an action combat MMO. Oh no, you actually might have to use your class mechanic, what a tragedy.

> >

> > You also didn't address the entire first paragraph so I'm assuming you don't have anything to actually back up your argument since sitting there with 3 phantasms out and auto attacking is not only passive, but boring and uninteresting, unless you really really enjoy tunneling one enemy and being useless for 30 seconds when it died.

>

> "Mesmer didn't have a choice whereas the other two do, it's damage or class mechanic, pick one. "

> "Which is a really stupid thing to have in an action combat MMO. Oh no, you actually might have to use your class mechanic, what a tragedy."

> Aren't you contradicting yourself? So why does other class/profession have a choice not to use class mechanic but not mesmer?

>

>

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > **Was intended.** Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. Mesmer most notably flat out ignored their profession mechanic, which is a really really poor design along with the litany of issues coming with the nature of phantasms anyway, e.g. you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace, if a skill created a clone it goes unused because phantasms.

> > > >

> Alright let me address your first paragraph. -> This is not rewarding active gameplay, but restricting gameplay.

> "you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace," -> Are you saying clones can do all these?

> You are giving the impression that all mesmer build only consist of 3 phantasms out and auto attacking which to you is boring and uninteresting. There are mesmer shatter builds that utilize their class mechanic. If you want exciting and interesting gameplay, choose shatter/ambush builds!

>

 

No I'm not contradicting myself, read it more carefully. The other classes can choose not to use their mechanic sure, but the part you gloss over is that they _can_ use their class mechanic without it shooting them in the foot, which shouldn't be the case, especially if phantasms are a core mechanic on every single weapon set. It is way more of a PvE centric issue without a doubt, but still a significant issue nonetheless. Imagine if Engi's using toolbelt skills or Thieves using Steal costed them 80% of their damage, that was the state of mesmer basically until Chronophantasma and Mirage. Basically using the class mechanic directly punished Mesmer for using their weapon skills which isn't the case for any other class, that's poor design.

 

Don't use false premises, nowhere did I say "clones can do all these things but phantasms can't." The only reason clones can be considered a DPS option now is because of Mirage, more specifically Infinite Horizon, Mirage also brings along the only two target swaps in the game, neither of which is useful with regards to phantasm as phantasm Mirage has significantly longer ramp up time and less DPS than the clone build.

 

No I'm not giving that impression, I said specifically that for a long time the only build considered viable in upper tier content was the phantasm AA build or support Chrono. The Mirage is very recent history and was a huge step in the right direction. Yeah there are shatter builds and for the most part they are garbage outside of sPvP or WvW roaming. That should not be the case, and won't be the case on Tuesday.

[moonstarmac.4603]

I can see this a major potential to improve the Mesmers of GW2.

 

Phantasm builds are great and all, I ran Focus offhand for Illusionary Inspiration and Persisting Images. If these two traits are altered to make clones more viable it help shift the Mesmer closer to the Illusion master of GW1. In GW1 I ran Illusionary Weaponry with interruption hexes. Guild Wars 2 I ran a core Warden/Defender build...Warden only with Chrono. The Mirage brought us more viable clones that dealt conditions out, which put them on a higher par than their Core/Chrono counterparts.

 

Overall I am looking forward to seeing how this will change our approach to the Mesmer class. It is like the changes to Spirit and Trap Rangers - no longer do the spirits move or can we place our traps with ground targeting. Subtle and not so subtle changes help the classes and players evolve. After all, who here really wants to 'swing a sword' and then 'swing it again?'

 

I would still like to see alternate weapon skills become available though. And hopefully, 2018 will bring about many exciting changes to make GW2 an even greater game!

[Leo G.4501]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > The amount of people who didn't understand issues with Mesmer is really showing in this thread. I'll run down a couple of the complaints here.

> > >

> > > So for the people irritated about not having a passive build anymore, this is an action style combat MMO, you're literally asking for the anathema of the entire combat system.

> >

> > How is it "asking for" when it was in the game for 4+ years?

> >

>

> Asking for it to remain. Seriously, that's how nitpicky you wanted to be about it?

 

The argument is the methods they are choosing to make changes, not to make them reconsider to make changes because when it comes to player feedback, it won't ever matter because they will make whatever change they want and moving forward, they will not go back on their changes. Again, look at spirit weapons...

[Leo G.4501]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> **Was intended.**

 

Now who's nitpicking?

 

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

>Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay.

 

I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing".

 

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS."

 

If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault.

 

 

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Mahou.3924" said:

> > @"Deyneris.5216" said:

> > This is the most disgusting, arbitrary, abusive thing I've ever experienced in guild wars in over 10 years of playing. Radical changes made, not for balance, not because a class was OP (because Lord knows you've nerfed mesmer into oblivion since release), but because people weren't playing it they way you wanted? And what do y'all do? You don't improve the mechanic you want people to play (shatter) to make it more enticing. No, you decide that it's perfectly okay to trash the way _**people decide they enjoy playing the game**_. Pick the longest string of Shakespearean insults you can muster that includes words like vile maggot scum and consider yourselves sworn at. Mesmer has been my favorite class, despite how many times you've crippled and incapacitated the builds I've made; but this? This is beyond the pale. I've always thought that people who rage quit were childish -- but I think I may have hit my limit-- such micromanaging of your player base is unacceptable. You started with a great concept and noble ideas about player interactions, but change after change after change you've made the game less and less enjoyable, and you've never respected your players--particularly your long term players.

>

> The only pitiful thing is your drama queen QQing while you wallow in self-pity and victim mode. Use your rage-quit gained free time and re-evalute your priories, and if deemed as necessary get the counseling to get you repaired.

 

And I think this illustrates my point. At this point in the game, the devs aren't going to be drawing players in, not by any noticeable degree. So their goal should be retention of the player-base. How does this change retain the current players? The point is, removal of fundamental game mechanics can have a damaging affect on retention, particularly the ones that aren't actually needed (needed, as in, necessary and I don't think the mesmer fanbase was hurting in any gamemode when it came to usability).

 

I ask again, could this change not have been linked to a trait? Or can a trait be introduced that allows players to perform how they currently perform?

[zealex.9410]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > **Was intended.**

>

> Now who's nitpicking?

>

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay.

>

> I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing".

>

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS."

>

> If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault.

>

>

 

Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget.