Shattering the Status Quo

[Leo G.4501]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> > > > > So... Let's be clear here. You have an incredibly skewed view of the definition of fascism. Fascism would require a body of authority.

> > > >

> > > > Well obviously, the next step to silencing here would be to get the thread locked and only a body of authority can do that...

> > > >

> > > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> > > > > What I did... Is exercise my American right to free speech. I used my speech to say 'I think your current discussion holds little to no merit, and has aggressive tone.'

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > And I simply asked what you're trying to accomplish. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. But steering the discussion presented by the OP is simply dragging the discussion off-topic. Telling people "their discussion is invalid" is an opinion, but as pointless to discuss as me pointing that out to you.

> > > >

> > > > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> > > > > - *HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALIZE THE STRUGGLE OF PEOPLE LIVING UNDER ACTUAL FACISM, FOR THE SAKE OF A ZINGER ON AN INTERNET FORUM.*

> > > >

> > > > When you're done with your virtue signaling and your pointless off-topic criticism, I'll be here to continue the discussion of the topic.

> > >

> > > You mean your pointless crusade for passive gameplay? Or your continually irritating tone of how expert your solution would be?

> >

> > Again, it's not a crusade for passive gameplay, it's a suggestion to not fundamentally change the game from how it has been played and supported for so long so as not to alienate long time players.

> >

>

> Fundamental changes happen all the time. Adaptation abd change is the lifeblood of any online game. Esp mmos.

 

It's also how you kill a game. An example of how it can save a game is FFXIV and an example of how it can kill a game is SWG. I am not against change, I am against change for change's sake. If they want to make an action oriented gameplay for mesmer, make a new build rather than changing everyone's mesmer after 4+ years. Arguing that you'd be forced to play the new build is no different than anyone being forced to play a meta build for whatever game mode is the topic of discussion.

[Abelisk.4527]

> @"Kel.9406" said:

> > @"Mahou.3924" said:

> > "You say Phantasm AA build is boring and uninteresting, but now you say it is the only build considered viable in upper tier content. LOL, your argument is all over the place.

> > Noone stopping you from playing exciting and interesting shatter/ambush builds in upper tier content."

> >

> > Seriously, what's so hard to understand? Even you should know that when people talk about valid, they refer to meta builds on site x. Easy right?

> > And if said meta build is the only valid one in upper tier content BUT is - let's say compared to other profesisons (ignoring Mozart-skill playstyles like Engineer and Ele) - boring and uninteresting to play, then that's neither contradicing, nor is it "all over the place".

>

> Seriously, do u and the other guy understand the situation here? ANET is removing the phantasm AA build which is one of the valid in upper tier, so what does that left us with? Shatter? Oh wait...you guys get kick for playing shatter. So what do you guys want now? Mirage? You guys are saying it is boring and uninteresting, but have you thought about other ppl who only have the core game? IT IS THE ONLY VALID BUILD for upper tier available to them. So selfish of you all.

> The meta build is one of valid one in upper tier content but you want ANET to remove it? This itself is contradicting.

> ANET should create more variable builds, not restricting gameplay.

 

Core players generally don't use that build in open world/fracs. The ramp up time VS. multiple mobs is silly and will make map comp take forever. Plus, the Phants die quickly in Fractals.

 

[Sarpan.9074]

Hm. In my ignorance, I've been using shatter very persistently without regard to what the phantasms were doing. I guess this change will actually make my play style more effective. We'll see.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

>

> **Was intended.** Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay. Mesmer most notably flat out ignored their profession mechanic, which is a really really poor design along with the litany of issues coming with the nature of phantasms anyway, e.g. you can't target swap, you have no cleave, your actual contribution to damage is nil, your source of sustained damage for a long time was easily destroyed, and took a fair chunk of time to get started or to replace, if a skill created a clone it goes unused because phantasms.

>

> The difference between the core mechanic of Mesmer and bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer is that bearbow Ranger and MM Necromancer aren't directly hampered by utilizing their class mechanic, they don't have to flat out ignore it to continue doing anything notable (not that either build is notable anyway). If you want a really good example of how cancerous passive gameplay can be, just remember how flat out boring and uninteresting it was to fight against a PU mesmer back when clone death traits still existed.

 

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

>

> No I'm not contradicting myself, read it more carefully. The other classes can choose not to use their mechanic sure, but the part you gloss over is that they _can_ use their class mechanic without it shooting them in the foot, which shouldn't be the case, especially if phantasms are a core mechanic on every single weapon set. It is way more of a PvE centric issue without a doubt, but still a significant issue nonetheless. Imagine if Engi's using toolbelt skills or Thieves using Steal costed them 80% of their damage, that was the state of mesmer basically until Chronophantasma and Mirage. Basically using the class mechanic directly punished Mesmer for using their weapon skills which isn't the case for any other class, that's poor design.

>

 

Preach it brother!

 

> @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> Fact is, all our judgements, arguments, and other crap means little or nothing.

>

> But none of that matters. Cause we don't have the notes.

>

> Break and reform this discussion Tuesday?

 

And the only other sane poster here. I'm waiting for the notes and looking forward to not fighting with my core profession mechanic anymore.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

I am looking forward to seeing the full implementation. I hope it will justify pulling my mesmer off of the backburner.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> I would argue that every utility doesn't need to be omgwfkbbq but just unique yet not complete garbage. While spirit weapons weren't very good, I still used them for flavor and to spread my boons to when solo. Even with balanced numbers, I doubt people will flock to them while there are so many other extremely impactful utilities available to Guardian.

Spirit weapons could have unique non-garbage functions if they lost their cast time. The main factor killing them is having a cast time _and_ having another activation time afterwards. With that change, I don't think that more than some minor number tweaks would be required to make them worthwhile - SoJ for extra damage replacing ToF, HoW for CC, the shield complementing WoR and the bow as a healer tool. They _could_ supplement quite a few builds nicely.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > This is very similar to the change to Guardian Spirit Weapons. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the factors are nearly equal. Truthfully though, I don't think I've even seen a spirit weapon in use anytime recently.

> I'm a bid reluctant to draw that line. Both spirit weapons and phantasms were bad mechanics before the changes. Spirit weapons continue to be useless, but that's not because of being a bad mechanic anymore, but instead the devs kitten-up numbers. In case of phantasms, we don't know yet whether the new mechanics will be good in practice and whether they'll get numbers right.

>

Spirit weapons are there to show up what devs consider a baseline similar effects should be balanced around. And that's really worrying.

 

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> I would argue that every utility doesn't need to be omgwfkbbq but just unique yet not complete garbage. While spirit weapons weren't very good, I still used them for flavor and to spread my boons to when solo. Even with balanced numbers, I doubt people will flock to them while there are so many other extremely impactful utilities available to Guardian.

Indeed. That's the one more part that's worrying. Guardians were able to simply ignore their spirit weapons wit no negative impact for their builds because spirit weapons were optional, and you could just not slot them, using instead other alternative options. In case of mesmers however, most of the phantasms are weapon skills, and as thus you _cannot_ ignore them and replace with a working option.

 

 

[Peroxideandwaffles.3405]

I am so disgusted and filled with rage that i can't even begin to express it. I hate that every class and play style i actually enjoy playing you continuously nerf into the ground making it unviable. I hate you people for creating something I enjoy and then ripping it out of my hands like giving a child an ice cream cone and then smacking it to the ground while laughing in their face.

[Kas.3509]

I'm not sure what to think about it. There IS a problem with clones and phantasms, but I'm not sure if this will be a change for better.

1)

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> However our primary goal with these changes is the same: to create a more active profession gameplay loop that rewards spending profession resources over saving them.

>

The word "active" worries me. No offence but when you go to raid builds and see "thief" or "revenant" you see 12 steps for best dps. On chronomancer you go and see 30-55 steps for buffs. I really do NOT want my rotation to be even longer, considering you also tank and need to fir blocks in good moments in some raids.

 

2) Phantasmal Defender taunt. However cool it sounds defender was mainly used when you had problems surviving. That kinda kills its purpose? Could be useful if you want to tank small mobs, BUT the problem is chronomancer CAN'T fit it to be quite honest, which leads to point 3.

 

3) The problem I see is that right now chrono utility slots are 99% of time going to be:

- Well of Action

- Well of Recall

- Signet of Inspiration

- You can't really replace any of them if you want to keep up buffs good enough.

 

4) I'd really like some images, or anything that would show me what phantasms/clones I have currently summoned. Right now it's sometimes impossible for me to say what is summoned and it bothers me. When lot's of players is on screen it's impossible to tell if you dont remember you whole past rotation.

 

5) I really hope these changes will make power mesmer at least viable choice. Hope they buff our stupidly weak basic attacks and things like that and maybe make greatsword not a trash tier weapon because it's just not useful at all.

 

 

Overall I hope it's buff not nerf : P

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > **Was intended.**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget.

> > > > >

> > > > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game.

> > > >

> > > > They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen.

> > >

> > > Infinite minions was something introduced with Reaper and, if I'm not mistaken, taken away before the next elite spec was introduced.

> >

> > Yes. And?

>

> That creates a difference between the two examples presented (necro mass-minion vs mesmer phantasms). That difference is the key to your answer.

 

It doesnt give me any answer nor does it justify not changing phantasms. The only thing that that tells is that anet is fast when it comes to nerfing necro.

[Raijin.9107]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> A message from Robert Gee, Guild Wars 2 Systems Team:

>

> Today I wanted to give you all a heads up on some important changes coming to the mesmer profession in the coming update. These changes affect phantasms, which are a core part of the mesmer profession mechanic (illusions) and as a result, will have a large effect on how the mesmer profession plays after the update.

>

> In one sentence, these changes can be summed up as, "Phantasms become clones after their initial attack."

>

> Here are the specific details of how it works:

>

> - Phantasms no longer will persist indefinitely. Instead, a phantasm will attack once and then automatically be destroyed. If interrupted during its attack the phantasm also will be destroyed.

> - Phantasms still can be targeted by skills and take damage while alive. Phantasms can be destroyed by damaging skills before they finish their attack.

> - A destroyed phantasm will be replaced with a clone based on your current weapon set. This clone will spawn regardless of how the phantasm was destroyed. The clone is spawned at the location of the phantasm at the time it was destroyed.

> - Shatter skills no longer destroy phantasms, and phantasms no longer count towards the maximum illusion limit.

>

> This is a pretty large gameplay shift so I wanted to talk a little bit about why we are doing this and what it means for your mesmer gameplay.

>

> ## The Illusion of Choice

>

> Mesmers always have had a tension between clones and phantasms; this tension was designed into the profession when the game launched. The idea was that shattering clones would be good for burst damage while leaving phantasms active would be an option for sustained damage. Choosing whether or not to shatter was intended to be one of the core decision points for those playing mesmer.

>

> However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

>

> ## Mirrored Gameplay

>

> In the past, we've made some corrections to professions with this type gameplay as seen with the changes to the warrior's Adrenal Health and Berserker's Power traits, which previously rewarded saving adrenaline over spending it. Phantasms are a mechanic entirely based on discouraging the use of shatter skills and as a result, correcting this has touched a larger number of skills and traits than it did for warrior. However our primary goal with these changes is the same: to create a more active profession gameplay loop that rewards spending profession resources over saving them. For mesmer this means play patterns which revolve around generating and shattering clones while phantasms can be summoned for utility, bursts of damage, or some combination of the two.

>

> ## Power Return

>

> Because the power level of phantasm skills and traits usually assume that the phantasm will not be destroyed immediately, we have done an extensive balance pass on all skills and traits related to phantasms as well as several related traits and skills. We've also taken this opportunity to re-evaluate some of the under-performing phantasms to rework them into more impactful skills. For example, the Phantasmal Defender skill now taunts foes instead of buffing allies and the Phantasmal Warlock skill summons two phantasms, each with a new attack.

>

> ## Phantasmal Feedback

>

> While we're committed to making this change to phantasms as we feel it will improve the gameplay health of the mesmer profession, we also recognize that there will be an adjustment period where players will need to adapt to these changes. This is one of the largest changes we've undertaken for a single profession short of creating new specializations, and we realize that it may be jarring to some players. We'll be watching the feedback on our official forums after these changes go live and make adjustments where necessary.

>

> P.S. I'm sure that at least a few of you are wondering what this phantasm change means for Chronomancers in raids because the phantasmal avenger is a key component of keeping up alacrity for the party. For more information, please read today's [forum post about alacity](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26685/alacrity-time-for-a-change "forum post about alacity").

 

I can Understand that you are balancing the class. But hope that the phantasm change will buff there other skills, such as skill recharge time to cast another phantasm and there damage. Kindly do not ruin MESMER plzzz .

[Ithilwen.1529]

I'm not confident that Mesmer will be useful after this change. *The changes seem to center around high level fractals and raids.* The problem is that this sounds like it will harm Mesmer in most other modes.

 

To my mind, that's not an optimal choice.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> I'm not confident that Mesmer will be useful after this change. *The changes seem to center around high level fractals and raids.* The problem is that this sounds like it will harm Mesmer in most other modes.

>

> To my mind, that's not an optimal choice.

 

Literally nothing in open world and in pvp and wvw the phantasms wers used fir the first aa if that even bofre being destoryed or shattered.

[Muzical.1396]

GW2 2013: "Your game, your way! Play how you want! It's not our place to tell you how to build or play your class!"

GW2 2018: "Actually, we want you to play like this, so we're going to change your class to make you do it OUR way." (Oh heck, who am I kidding? That 2013 motto didn't even make it to the end of 2013.)

[zealex.9410]

> @"Muzical.1396" said:

> GW2 2013: "Your game, your way! Play how you want! It's not our place to tell you how to build or play your class!"

> GW2 2018: "Actually, we want you to play like this, so we're going to change your class to make you do it OUR way." (Oh heck, who am I kidding? That 2013 motto didn't even make it to the end of 2013.)

 

Glad they said that was a stupid thing to say.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Muzical.1396" said:

> GW2 2013: "Your game, your way! Play how you want! It's not our place to tell you how to build or play your class!"

> GW2 2018: "Actually, we want you to play like this, so we're going to change your class to make you do it OUR way." (Oh heck, who am I kidding? That 2013 motto didn't even make it to the end of 2013.)

 

This person gets it.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > > > @"Shayd.9648" said:

> > > > Is this going to be a loss in DPS for condi mirage in raid? This is a huge concern that has come up with my guildies since much of the sustained dps is coming from the phantasms. If it is, many of them are thinking of ditching it altogether. In my opinion that would be sad as condi mirage was almost the only viable dps for raid as a Mesmer.

> > > We're expecting rotations to change for DPS mesmer builds. Clones builds now have more flexibility to summon phantasms, and shattering in general will be more usable, but there may be damage losses from other changes. We're looking forward to seeing what new builds appear and will continue to make adjustments if things end up too far out of line (in either direction).

> >

> > **After the large glamour nerf, Mesmer was considered "trash tier" by many for a year or more. I am concerned that this situation will be similar.** It also looks to me like it's very focused on raids.

> >

> > In my view, Mesmer is moving toward being a more generic and less unique class.

>

> Ill take interesting "generic" ganeplay over unique and poorly thought out. But then again, no class destroys their summons fir benefit like mesmer will now be able to do so theres that.

 

It wasn't poorly thought out. The elite specs and the adjustments made later distorted it. The original design was solid. It included clear choices and opportunity costs.

Now, there will one way to play.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > > > > @"Shayd.9648" said:

> > > > > Is this going to be a loss in DPS for condi mirage in raid? This is a huge concern that has come up with my guildies since much of the sustained dps is coming from the phantasms. If it is, many of them are thinking of ditching it altogether. In my opinion that would be sad as condi mirage was almost the only viable dps for raid as a Mesmer.

> > > > We're expecting rotations to change for DPS mesmer builds. Clones builds now have more flexibility to summon phantasms, and shattering in general will be more usable, but there may be damage losses from other changes. We're looking forward to seeing what new builds appear and will continue to make adjustments if things end up too far out of line (in either direction).

> > >

> > > **After the large glamour nerf, Mesmer was considered "trash tier" by many for a year or more. I am concerned that this situation will be similar.** It also looks to me like it's very focused on raids.

> > >

> > > In my view, Mesmer is moving toward being a more generic and less unique class.

> >

> > Ill take interesting "generic" ganeplay over unique and poorly thought out. But then again, no class destroys their summons fir benefit like mesmer will now be able to do so theres that.

>

> It wasn't poorly thought out. The elite specs and the adjustments made later distorted it. The original design was solid. It included clear choices and opportunity costs.

> Now, there will one way to play.

 

Previous mesmer play was(in fight): spawn you phantasms, drop a feedback, aa and drop timewarp at some point at the fight depending on what % the classes got their buff at that time.

 

(Out of fight):drop a portal

[Alecu.1693]

I don't get it why people say that mesmer's "core" mechanic wasn't used. If you mean the skills with the little icons above the weapon skills, how many classes actually used those? On revenant most builds barely use one from time to time with a condi renegade. On dragon hunter guardian I just use one at most from time to time, even in the official "meta" builds. Aren't those the "core" mechanics of those classes which are also not used? On a firebrand

 

And lets look at the elite specializations and how many builds actually rely on the new weapon support they provide. I play with a dragonhunter and never used a bow. I also play a condi renegade and also never used a shortbow. Aren't the "core" mechanics of those elite specializations not used?

 

 

 

[Nuka Cola.8520]

That's fine, but why can't a phanta be shattered? Doesn't make any sense. Also, all this does is lowers the build variety even further. But meh, MHW is out so whatever happens in gw2 is not important.

 

And if they attack only once, you better lower the CD on all phantasm skills, especially those on 20sec + CD.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> That's fine, but why can't a phanta be shattered? Doesn't make any sense. Also, all this does is lowers the build variety even further. But meh, MHW is out so whatever happens in gw2 is not important.

>

> And if they attack only once, you better lower the CD on all phantasm skills, especially those on 20sec + CD.

 

Also increase the damage to compensate.

 

For example, if the phantasm skill could do 3 attacks before you could cast it again (purely hypothetical value), then the new one needs to make at least 3 times the damage. And that would still be a nerf, considering you can now have 3 phantasms attacking at the same time, so the real value of new phantasm damage should be 1.5 times that (1.5, not 3, because you can weapon switch and cast a second phantasm during the cd on the first one).

 

Somehow i seriously doubt they're going to buff them that high.

[Lanhelin.3480]

Honestly, these changes worry me a lot. I play a core Phantasm Mesmer and its gameplay never felt passive. I ignored the shatter mechanics entirely, but the skill trees also allowed to build based on this decision, which imho was a good thing. I never used the shatter skills in my thousands of hours played with my Mesmer and I probably will try to do so even after these changes. E.g. I use(d) the Phantasmal Disenchanter in nearly every fight to help my group avoiding damage from conditions. Sometimes I even summoned two of them because certain enemies spam their conditions. So it's not ok to summon it once every fight and let do it its job and resummon it in case it gets destroyed, but it is ok when I first click a button for this effect every time? And this is considered "active" gameplay? To be able to support the group during a whole fight the CD of the Disenchanter must become greatly reduced. All Illusion summoning skills should have a base CD of 12 seconds and it can be reduced further if traited so. Phantasm-Spamming would be the result.

 

The Defender taunts? - And then becomes a clone and gets instantly destroyed, so what's the point of the taunt? This would only make sense if the clone gets some sort of Phantasm-Echo-Buff, like Invulnerability.

 

Or the T3 skill #2 in the Inspiration tree: Phantasms give Regeneration to nearby allies - currently melee phantasms are summoned at the location of the Mesmer and then run in close range. Will the new melee phants finally be summoned at the target's location? And will the regen duration be increased?

 

Why did you implement the Phantasmal Force trait only a few months ago? I guess this trait now just flat increases Phant's damage by XX%?

 

 

Fortunately I kept my condition gear, because Staff-Clones spamming WoC seems to be the way to preserve my preferred non-shatter gameplay. And they probably will be the only type of clones that continue attacking enemies while I'm downed with a small chance to get up again - a task currently phants fulfill. Btw what clone becomes the iRogue after its initial changing-nothing-never-ever-saving-my-life-attack?

 

No Mesmer could ever play passively, because all illusions disappear once the targeted enemy is dead and they also do not appear automatically. Afk-playing isn't possible for a Mesmer, no matter what build, a Mesmer who goes afk in the wilderness soon is a dead Mesmer, the #1 profession for afk'ing will still be the MM Necro.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > **Was intended.**

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen.

> > > >

> > > > Infinite minions was something introduced with Reaper and, if I'm not mistaken, taken away before the next elite spec was introduced.

> > >

> > > Yes. And?

> >

> > That creates a difference between the two examples presented (necro mass-minion vs mesmer phantasms). That difference is the key to your answer.

>

> It doesnt give me any answer nor does it justify not changing phantasms. The only thing that that tells is that anet is fast when it comes to nerfing necro.

 

I suppose I'll have to explain your game for you then.

 

1. Phantasms were a thing and supported for 4+ years, making it through many changes such as multiple trait overhauls. Rise! was nerfed after its effects created practically infinite minions. Apples vs organges.

2. The effect of necromancer's army of minions created a clear server stability issue but mesmer is hard capped at 3 illusions at any given time. Apples vs oranges.

3. Rise! still performs the fundamental effect it always has which is to summon minions to absorb damage. I feel proponents of this new change could likely argue that the new phantasms would still perform their fundamental effect, but I don't think they'd even want to.

[KynnVyr.1378]

the thing i'm worried about is the disapearance of choice in wich fantasme to summon, right now we need to choose wich one to summon but if they stay for 1 (2) attaques then you can spam all your fantasm wait and repeat, that's borring (yeah no more illusion of choice ... no more choice) but if the fantasme get rework with new abilitys it can work for the better

[zealex.9410]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > **Was intended.**

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now who's nitpicking?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > >Then they started shifting away from passive gameplay and rewarding active gameplay.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone is against that mentality, but there's a difference between "shifting away" and "removing".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Haishao, "Stupid Brainless cloneshatter spam" is hyperbole especially when comparing it to "eat popcorn and dodge occasionally while your character autoattacks and contributes a negligible amount to your already poor DPS."

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If you're going to accuse of hyperbole, then don't commit the same fault.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Its more rewarding for the players at large if a class is interactive you are rewarded for performing well at it. They didnt havemuch choice to the matter how phantasms worked needed to change. Ill take something that requires me to be there more than something thats fire and forget.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Like I said in a previous post, I don't have a dog in this fight with regard to this particular change, but changing things to other things with no option to choose between either only pushes out those that prefer one over the other. Since this game likely isn't pulling in players in droves and you keep doing it, it's only a death sentence to the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They did that with necro as well when they deleted infinite dur minions surely ppl loved that build but by anet's standarts it was a build that promoted playstyle they dont agree with. Same here they didnt like the play style it wasnt what they wanted hence changed it and there were ppl who complained for this change to happen.

> > > > >

> > > > > Infinite minions was something introduced with Reaper and, if I'm not mistaken, taken away before the next elite spec was introduced.

> > > >

> > > > Yes. And?

> > >

> > > That creates a difference between the two examples presented (necro mass-minion vs mesmer phantasms). That difference is the key to your answer.

> >

> > It doesnt give me any answer nor does it justify not changing phantasms. The only thing that that tells is that anet is fast when it comes to nerfing necro.

>

> I suppose I'll have to explain your game for you then.

>

> 1. Phantasms were a thing and supported for 4+ years, making it through many changes such as multiple trait overhauls. Rise! was nerfed after its effects created practically infinite minions. Apples vs organges.

> 2. The effect of necromancer's army of minions created a clear server stability issue but mesmer is hard capped at 3 illusions at any given time. Apples vs oranges.

> 3. Rise! still performs the fundamental effect it always has which is to summon minions to absorb damage. I feel proponents of this new change could likely argue that the new phantasms would still perform their fundamental effect, but I don't think they'd even want to.

 

The reason that phantasms were left liek taht is because they didnt make any build overperform. Chrono didnt overperform, mirage didnt overperform nor did phantasm power mesmer. Necro did hence why the change was fast. Chrono played out well enough and not thanks to that mechanic same with mirage. That allowed them to ignore the problem for a long time. Until after hot it also didnt matter because mesmer was never taken in any content for his phantasms mesmer wsa taken for his portal and other utilities.

 

I can see the issues with server stability and idd u have a point there but, the skill plus other tools that the necro mancer had still allowed the class to top everything else with superior single target and insane cleave.

 

Phantasms wont stop performing their core job which is get summoned perform your attack skill. They arent clones they arent supposed to confuse anyone. They just are there to deal dps with their ability which will remain even after. Diff is mesmer will be more free to use other tools in their arsenal.