WvW should have the same build system as sPvP.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Same? No.

 

Similar in that there is per slot customization? Sure, but it's too late in 2018.

 

It should have been this way from the beginning since GW1 already had this...alas, there has been too many rewards additions that are still in the style of PvE-gear-grind-acquisition. Such a change is going to be severely jarring.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> 100 percent agree been saying it for years. It's one of the primary changes I would make to WvW if I could.

>

> Then I'd limit the game to about 10 amulets and just balance around those.

 

Can u imagine the number of trinkets to be removed/forbiden on WvW as well, how many builds would die?

 

SPVP is what is wrong due balance team doing an horribad work, game should be balanced to all stats work w/o being removed, but Anet prefers to remove rather than balance and that would affect alot the game, and would make pve **more useless than it already is**.

 

Why is not the other way arround make Spvp use same system has WvW and then balance the skill, arent skills splitted???

Rather than remove trinkets to avoid have to work,,???

 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Aiga.3075" said:

> > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > Instead of taking the sPvP amulet system, **_just adjust everyone's gear (who are in ascended) to exotic level while in WvW_** just like in sPvP and stats from infusions shouldn't count in WvW IMO.

> > >

> > > For example, if player A is wearing full exotic zerker gear while player B is wearing full ascended zerker gear (with or without infusions) they'd have same stats. This way you can mix other stat individual pieces as well keep the power creep level to minimum. Also helps in normalizing stats since exotic is dirt cheap to acquire.

> >

> > No. People who have put in the time, gold and mats in to making ascended or legendary gear should have better stats than exotic.

>

> They will have better stats in all pve content. This is only for WvW to make stats matter less and personal skill/positioning more.

 

Personal skill/positioning **does** matter more. Someone having Ascended gear does not just miraculously make them good at PvP, especially not against the more experienced players by any means. The extra stats are helpful but in comparison to knowing how to play your class, how to play against other classes and positioning yourself properly those stat increases are minor.

 

Now also lets not forget Ascended gear is **not** difficult to get by any stretch. They've made it even easier to get over time with the addition of the Grandmaster Marks, which now you can even get Grandmaster Mark Shards from completing Bronze, Silver, and Gold pip chests in WvW. You can also get Grandmaster Marks from Persimmon, Amaranth and Byzantium pip chests in sPvP. You can even buy most of the materials you need to craft Grandmaster Marks, or just play a lot of PvE content. Or do all of the above and you can get your ascended Armor/Weapons even faster. This is all even including the extra currencies for them per game mode. Plus already being able to craft the Armor/Weapons individually. Also include the Achievement Collections that give Ascended weapons, the PoF ones being the easiest and quickest to complete.

 

Its really just about time, that doesn't make it difficult or out of anyone's reach.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> Its really just about time, that doesn't make it difficult or out of anyone's reach.

 

Exactly. So their retort is going to be that providing easily swappable stats without the grind saves everyone the most time. o.o

 

Or this taking you out of context? Personally I think it's too late to do what the OP wants.

 

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > 100 percent agree been saying it for years. It's one of the primary changes I would make to WvW if I could.

> >

> > Then I'd limit the game to about 10 amulets and just balance around those.

>

> Can u imagine the number of trinkets to be removed/forbiden on WvW as well, how many builds would die?

 

That would be part of the point of doing it. Although realistically speaking there are not that many commonly played builds. In fact most people play the exact same builds hence what we call the "meta."

 

> game should be balanced to all stats work w/o being removed

 

That is not possible.

 

> Why is not the other way arround make Spvp use same system has WvW and then balance the skill, arent skills splitted???

> Rather than remove trinkets to avoid have to work,,???

 

Because, put simply, build diversity is the natural antagonist of game balance.

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > 100 percent agree been saying it for years. It's one of the primary changes I would make to WvW if I could.

> > >

> > > Then I'd limit the game to about 10 amulets and just balance around those.

> >

> > Can u imagine the number of trinkets to be removed/forbiden on WvW as well, how many builds would die?

>

> That would be part of the point of doing it. Although realistically speaking there are not that many commonly played builds. In fact most people play the exact same builds hence what we call the "meta."

>

> > game should be balanced to all stats work w/o being removed

>

> That is not possible.

>

> > Why is not the other way arround make Spvp use same system has WvW and then balance the skill, arent skills splitted???

> > Rather than remove trinkets to avoid have to work,,???

>

> Because, put simply, build diversity is the natural antagonist of game balance.

>

 

1st, I know 100% balance is impossible,(ive worked in a game project in the past) but things can work smoothly if balance team was anything decent or good, and what people say about balanced game is a game that is more towards player skill rather than be the build makign player strong than other player due gimmicks and easy access to DPS in a game where DPS is king and easy to apply, and it doesn't eve require team work 95% of time.

2nd, the gap between meta gimmicks and non meta builds needs to be shortened, and put more in line with each other, these fight are won due build gimmick most of time rather than player skill (ive won matches against players that had the diamond rank icons, and i didn't give a f** to understand what was happening, it was pure powercreep moments or those players completely being punished cause they are used to spam to win since this game u don't need to be that good to be effective).

3rd, Ur a bit wrong...Sir.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > Its really just about time, that doesn't make it difficult or out of anyone's reach.

>

> Exactly. So their retort is going to be that providing easily swappable stats without the grind saves everyone the most time. o.o

>

> Or this taking you out of context? Personally I think it's too late to do what the OP wants.

>

>

 

Taking it a bit out of context. I'm saying if their issue is the ability to get Ascended gear "seems" difficult, then they would be wrong because it isn't. Getting Ascended gear is just about time and they **will** get it, and if they don't already have it then that is essentially their own fault. It doesn't take endless hours of playing through content to achieve nor do you need to do anything difficult.

[Wizardauz.3761]

I just want to hear from the balance Devs.

 

Just knowing their thoughts/process on how they view certain classes and the meta as a whole. sPvP-wise and WvW-wise.

 

Meddler from Riot Games comes out with a weekly "Gameplay Thoughts" just talking about how he views things and what they could be looking into. It opens up discussion.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Regardless of whether it's a good idea, it's incredibly costly to do this. Besides the coding to change the entire underbelly of WvW (using gear for stats), they'd have to entirely revamp the reward system. Right now it is intricately entwined with gear-based stats. This would invalidate all of that, not only rendering worthless some of the grind people have already put in, but also making the rewards less valuable. Several reward tracks would have to be entirely revamped, and all but a few would require some changes.

 

Plus, it will also require revisiting the current balance of all skills & traits. While it's true that PvP & WvW have lots of tactics in common, PvP doesn't have any large scale fighting, and ANet would have to double check that everything still makes sense with the current numbers. (To be fair, there's potentially savings in future costs, since it's possible a universal build system would be easier to balance. But that's dwarfed by other costs.)

 

Accordingly, ANet isn't even going to consider this _unless_ there's a really compelling reason. Will it bring new players into the game? Will it slow the current attrition? Will it increase attrition of some players? Sure, it will _feel_ different, but from even the OP's description, it doesn't sound likely this would be a _transformative_ change.

 

tl;dr the costs of this proposal are high, the benefits are modest. Even if everyone wanted it (and it doesn't sound as if everyone does).

[Dami.5046]

If you want this, we might as well go full GW mode and be able to create a lvl80 pvp Character just for wvw. But not with the gold sink sPvP has for unlocks. Something like Balthazar faction please.

Crafting grandmaster marks has become my thing in life don't ya know.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> 1st, I know 100% balance is impossible,(ive worked in a game project in the past) but things can work smoothly if balance team was anything decent or good.

 

Balance is 100 percent possible if there is zero asymmetry. So imagine a game where every player has the exact same stats, the same tools, the same movesets the same exact everything. Build wise that would be a completely balanced game. But it would also be boring because humans enjoy variety. Unfortunately in order to introduce variety into a game the developers also have to introduce asymmetries. The more variety they introduce the more asymmetries they introduce the harder it becomes to balance them all against one another. Thus game complexity/variety/diversity are the natural antagonists of game balance.

 

> 2nd, the gap bettween meta gimmicks and non meta builds needs to be shortened, and put more in line with each other, these fight are won due build gimmick most of time rather than player skill (ive won matches aginst players that had the diamond rank icons, and i didnt give a f** to understand what was happening, it was pure powercreep momments or those players completelly being punised cause they are used to spam to win sicne this game u dont need to be that good to be efective).

 

Need a clear definition of exactly what you consider to be a "gimmick" so I know exactly what you mean.

 

Usually when I see people talk about "gimmicks" it reads to me as a rant against min-maxing and/or misunderstood class mechanics. So for example, they ran into a full zerk spellbreaker whose whole build was designed around stances, adrenal health and bursts and they dropped all their damage into the stances, let them keep the adrenal health up the entire fight and ate every burst.

 

[Voltekka.2375]

No. Build diversity is more fun in wvw, where legendary armor actually has its usefulness. I want to play seraph+assassin+shaman stats, with zerker/apothecary weps? I can do that. Leave wvw as it is.

[Elder of Time.3279]

PvP stats are too limited. Also, I feel as though doing PvE is more rewarding as I can take my newly acquired gear from PvE and show it off in WvW.

 

I personally wouldn't care for legendary armor if it wasn't for WvW lol.

[phokus.8934]

It’s as if people don’t objectively think about massive changes and then force it on others telling them how wrong they are... who knew?

[fewfield.7802]

You are just a cheap player who cant afford an expensive proper build. You are just new and havent even played WvW properly.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

No, no no no, a thousand times, no! Put amulets into WvW, and I, and probably many others, would quit that day. Build crafting for WvW is a great source of enjoyment for too many players to replace with a crappy, powered down amulet system.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Have to disagree OP. WvW is endgame which is why gear matters and you have fully customized builds. Would not want to be pigeon hold into a build and left with nothing more to work towards. Love the fights but its also about working up to things. And yes, did start WvW at level 1 in white gear, its was terrible but extremely rewarding once geared up. 30 WvW toons so far and climbing. No PvP system is fine for PvP but not for WvW.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Agreed OP.

Also lul at people talking about build diversity on wvw and people defending powercreep.

[Gwaihir.1745]

How did you get from 'its mists' to 'therefore pvp balance.' Id like to know for scientific reasons.

 

You put stat lock amulets into wvw you may as well outright shut down the game mode. And like to admit it or not its probably a decent chunk of gw2's funding so you can kiss your sweet raid updates goodbye.

[Balthazzarr.1349]

> @"eley crey.2905" said:

> Title.

> WvW is supposed to be in the "mists" so it should have the same build system as sPvP.

 

In a word... NO

[eley crey.2905]

The point is to remove the pve gear grind from wvw and move it towards being an actually competitive game mode, instead of just a bunch of people grinding shinnies in between raids. Yeah, ascended isn't that hard to get, but I don't want a bunch of armor sets and trinkets in my inventory, especially with how double clicking rings and accessories doesn't even work half the time. Makes changing builds on the fly a pain.

 

[Aiga.3075]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Aiga.3075" said:

> > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > @"Aiga.3075" said:

> > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > Instead of taking the sPvP amulet system, **_just adjust everyone's gear (who are in ascended) to exotic level while in WvW_** just like in sPvP and stats from infusions shouldn't count in WvW IMO.

> > > > >

> > > > > For example, if player A is wearing full exotic zerker gear while player B is wearing full ascended zerker gear (with or without infusions) they'd have same stats. This way you can mix other stat individual pieces as well keep the power creep level to minimum. Also helps in normalizing stats since exotic is dirt cheap to acquire.

> > > >

> > > > No. People who have put in the time, gold and mats in to making ascended or legendary gear should have better stats than exotic.

> > >

> > > They will have better stats in all pve content. This is only for WvW to make stats matter less and personal skill/positioning more.

> >

> > I don't do pve I only do wvw so these "pve" stats are worthless to me. My ascended gear didn't even come from pve I made grandmaster marks for everything.

>

> Then how will it affect you because everyone will get downgraded to exotic anyway?

>

> There is nothing more unhealthy than an uneven field stat-wise in PvP environment in any MMO (look at BDO for example where battles are decided by who has the better gear rather than skills). I chose exotic since it's easy to acquire for all players and is highest tier after ascended.

 

How will it affect me? The ascended triumphant armor has better stats than the exotic triumphant armor. Why even grind to get the ascended or legendary because some people are to lazy or new to to get it? The people with ascended or legendary armor have better stats because they earned it and personally I think legendary armor should have better stats then ascended because it harder to get and that's coming from someone who doesn't own a single legendary.

 

Next you people will be crying about being outnumbered and want anet to make it so if your side is outnumbered then the other sides will have a que to keep the numbers more even.

[Absconditus.6804]

One of the reasons I don't really like sPvP is the restrictions the build system puts on creating fun and viable builds across the various classes. I would definitely not want to see the same applied to World vs. World.

[joneirikb.7506]

I'd love the option to use pvp system for the entire game (pvp, pve, wvw). Sick of gearing, sigils and runes, stat sets and what not. Also sick of ascended (and have plenty of ascended btw). I just wish for the simplicity of swapping sigils, runes, and stats, around when I feel like it to experiment and try new things. Without sitting watching 5-6g worth of sigils of force go to waste every time.

 

That being said:

 

> The point is to remove the pve gear grind from wvw and move it towards being an actually competitive game mode,

 

Going from Ascended to Exotic doesn't change wvw one millimeter towards being competitive, simply because gw2's combat system essentially breaks under numbers. They could have perfect balance, and the entire world laud them for having the best pvp balance in the world, and WvW would still be an unbalanced mess. Because of 24/7/coverage, and never having the same size of team, and the team being randoms instead of a handpicked team, and especially because of how numbers really mess up in this game when you start zerging.

 

At this point, they could start adding handicaps to the outnumbered bonus, big stat boosts and pulsing stab/resistance, and I wouldn't think the game got any "less competitive". The entire game mode design to start with, makes it non-competitive.

[eley crey.2905]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

 

> Going from Ascended to Exotic doesn't change wvw one millimeter towards being competitive, simply because gw2's combat system essentially breaks under numbers. They could have perfect balance, and the entire world laud them for having the best pvp balance in the world, and WvW would still be an unbalanced mess. Because of 24/7/coverage, and never having the same size of team, and the team being randoms instead of a handpicked team, and especially because of how numbers really mess up in this game when you start zerging.

>

> At this point, they could start adding handicaps to the outnumbered bonus, big stat boosts and pulsing stab/resistance, and I wouldn't think the game got any "less competitive". The entire game mode design to start with, makes it non-competitive.

 

Then maybe a solution is to add to more pvp modes. One controlled large scale mode i.e. 10v10 or 15v15 (this one using all the gear) and one single person 1v1v1v1v1*x (this one using spvp gear) type of situation.