On the Subject of "Whales"

[Algreg.3629]

I approach this as I do in real life, do with your money what you want, that is none of my business at all, if it helps a game I like, all the more power to you.

[Fenom.9457]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Fenom.9457" said:

> > I’m wondering how much money must be spent to be called that. Either way my problem is the term itself. Something about being called a whale makes me angry, and it’s annoying to use it even if I don’t qualify as one. If we want to use a large beast that represents the large effect made by those people, can’t we use dragon?

>

> I _think_ it is called whale because of how much the developers get out of one, single player. Think back to the days of actual whaling and just how much raw “stuff” one would get out of a single killed whale.

>

>

 

 

Yea but the same is true of a dragon and their massive gold caches. Anyway it’s just a thing that gets to me

[Dante.1763]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> I still think there should be some special title or infusion (maybe of floating gold coins or money signs) for those that have spent a certain amount of money on this game. That’d be an easy way to find the whales.

 

Im sure that would backfire somehow :/

[Substance E.4852]

> @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> My honest opinion: What possible reason is there for me to care what someone else spends on the game?

 

Probably because it ends up affecting the entire game's design in a way that affects everyone?

[Overlord RainyDay.2084]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > I still think there should be some special title or infusion (maybe of floating gold coins or money signs) for those that have spent a certain amount of money on this game. That’d be an easy way to find the whales.

>

> Im sure that would backfire somehow :/

 

I know I certainly wouldn't spend any more money on the game if there was something that marked I had done so.

[Vayne.8563]

So I'm one of the whales. I've spent an awful lot of money on this game. I spend money because I have money. Whatever my hobby is at any given time I'm going to spend money on it.

 

I don't sell gems to get gold though, I just buy stuff in the cash shop that I like, or in some cases, black lion keys, because I enjoy opening chests. The random factor doesn't particularly bother me, any more than it bothered me back in the days I used to buy base ball cards.

 

If people want to judge me for supporting a game I play a lot of that's fine. Dollars per hour this is still the cheapest form of entertainment I've ever had. I play with my wife, and we both enjoy it. We're also both retired.

 

But I'm not here to justify myself to anyone. I play and pay because I want to. If I had to, I wouldn't do it.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> So I'm one of the whales. I've spent an awful lot of money on this game. I spend money because I have money. Whatever my hobby is at any given time I'm going to spend money on it.

>

> I don't sell gems to get gold though, I just buy stuff in the cash shop that I like, or in some cases, black lion keys, because I enjoy opening chests. The random factor doesn't particularly bother me, any more than it bothered me back in the days I used to buy base ball cards.

>

> If people want to judge me for supporting a game I play a lot of that's fine. Dollars per hour this is still the cheapest form of entertainment I've ever had. I play with my wife, and we both enjoy it. We're also both retired.

>

> But I'm not here to justify myself to anyone. I play and pay because I want to. If I had to, I wouldn't do it.

 

Thank you for your openness... and for helping support the rest of us! :)

[derd.6413]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> Are there really any Whales in GW2? Besides buying achievements, raids or fractals, you can't really pay to win here, can you? In the MMORPG I've played before GW2, there were people that spend 1.000+ EUR per week (!); I'd think that you'd qualify as whale if you spend 100+ EUR per week though.

 

Whales refere to ppl that spend lots of money, it has nothing to do with what they use their bought currency on or p2w mechanics

[Zedek.8932]

I've spent 40€ to buy like 600 gold to buy me my sniper rifle (skin). The Hunter is the most beautiful weapon to me, and without it, neither my profession nor my Asura would perfectly match. Now I am so super happy. I could've farmed it, but I dislike that since FF14 and my Stardust grind. And the amount of hours of fun and enjoyment I had was worth spending the money rather thinking it's a chore to play the game for collecting and crafting and all that stuff. Same with my Noble Count outfit and the black dyes (Shadow X). I'd also spend much money for a dyble Springer skin or suppressed pistols with the right sound.

 

If I look on the subject isolated, it's insane. 40 EUR. I've purchased one of the best games of my life (Styx 1 and 2 - I love that Goblin!) for almost the same amount, but these were full games with individual engines, voice overs, marketing. Here I pay that for a mere 3D model that is done within a few workhours. I can't tell that to anyone not playing online games, they would deem me shopaholic for "pixels". But then, it was worth it, because my net income is way higher. I spent 3 hours of my net income (German taxes and social security contributions are high as heck...) for saving me literally 50+ hours of something I do not want to do, giving me countless of fun hours on top. That is a good deal, isn't it?

 

Excelsior.

[maddoctor.2738]

All the definitions about "whales" that I've seen are about "casual" games, Facebook, mobile and browser games mostly. For some reason that terms found its way in mmorpgs, although a "whale" in casual/mobile games and a "whale" in an mmorpg are completely different types of people. A "whale" in a mobile game pays to skip the game, they are usually people that have less time, less skill, or both, to invest in the game and progress in it by paying cash. They trade play time (and skill) with cash in order to progress, that's how most mobile games are build around, with a much higher emphasis on time, rather than skill.

 

In contrast, I believe a "whale" in an mmorpg is a heavily invested player. A long term player that loves the game, instead of someone that pays to skip parts of it. Someone that enjoys the game for what it is and spends money to support it. A player that has spend too much time making sure their characters look great fashion-wise. And of course someone that is part of a community, in order to show off their acquisitions better. I really doubt lonely solo players that play once a week can be "whales", again in contrast with mobile games, where those types of players can easily be "whales".

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Guild Wars 2 is a game which succeeded in many areas, while having ABSURD failures in many others (hi 25 condi cap for years after launch, HoT content draught etc, etc etc).

 

Reason it held up and will hold up are it's **extremely** strong and robust design choices from core game. Things like scaling to map levels, horizontal progression being end-game rather then vertical one, Fashion Wars 2, and also the fashion-based gemstore with currency conversion.

 

I don't mind whales at all in this game - beause in this game i can share in their wealth (buying gems for my gold), and their wealth is not P2W. I'm not doomed to lose on every turn because they flushed down more cash.

 

Design choices such as these saved the game from numerous pitfalls throughout it's life and will keep it strong.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > My honest opinion: What possible reason is there for me to care what someone else spends on the game?

>

> Probably because it ends up affecting the entire game's design in a way that affects everyone?

 

Let me try really hard, then... Nope, didn't work.

[Offair.2563]

Might have to ask the japanese for a true answer on this.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> My honest opinion: What possible reason is there for me to care what someone else spends on the game?

 

Since there's no real P2W in GW2? None, kinda. In other MMORPGs though, it's quite important how far the P2W-aspects reach. That's why it's quite weird that your answer got the "Accepted Answer"-tag, since in MMORPGs where cash actually does matter, you have significant disadvantages as a "free player" (meaning a person who just spend money for the subscription and/or game-content (like the expansions HoT/PoF in GW2)). P2W is never healthy for a game - not in the long term. There are even some aspects you could criticize about GW2, like the unique and immediately account-bound skins from BLCs which you don't get any other way. That's something people should criticize in a game which is all about fashion. Another example were the first-generation-mountfits. The current solution of having a more expensive item which lets you choose the outfit you want is certainly fair, even though still overpriced. All in all, there are several reasons why people should care about how much money other people spend on a game since in the long term, it can affect the games health. Maybe not GW2, but other games prove the point just well.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > My honest opinion: What possible reason is there for me to care what someone else spends on the game?

>

> Since there's no real P2W in GW2? None, kinda. In other MMORPGs though, it's quite important how far the P2W-aspects reach. That's why it's quite weird that your answer got the "Accepted Answer"-tag, since in MMORPGs where cash actually does matter, you have significant disadvantages as a "free player" (meaning a person who just spend money for the subscription and/or game-content (like the expansions HoT/PoF in GW2)). P2W is never healthy for a game - not in the long term. There are even some aspects you could criticize about GW2, like the unique and immediately account-bound skins from BLCs which you don't get any other way. That's something people should criticize in a game which is all about fashion. Another example were the first-generation-mountfits. The current solution of having a more expensive item which lets you choose the outfit you want is certainly fair, even though still overpriced. All in all, there are several reasons why people should care about how much money other people spend on a game since in the long term, it can affect the games health. Maybe not GW2, but other games prove the point just well.

 

Except this isn't some random Pay-to-Win, Cash-Grab MMO. This is Guild Wars 2.

 

Putting aside the fact (the general public) have no right to know what others spend their money on, ArenaNet already has access to data saying who buys what for how much. They already employ professionals who interpret that data. They already make decisions based on that data.

 

So, again, what reason do (the general public) have to care, or even know, who spends what on Guild Wars 2?

[OrbitalButt.5708]

Boy I'm so glad the GW2 Neighborhood Watch are on the case, the Mystery of the Malicious Money Spenders will soon be brought to a close and we can expose these criminals to the light of justice

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Overlord RainyDay.2084" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > I still think there should be some special title or infusion (maybe of floating gold coins or money signs) for those that have spent a certain amount of money on this game. That’d be an easy way to find the whales.

> >

> > Im sure that would backfire somehow :/

>

> I know I certainly wouldn't spend any more money on the game if there was something that marked I had done so.

 

Why?

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> I don't think you'll ever get anyone to agree on a clear definition of who is and is not a whale or how much you have to spend to qualify because it's different for each person and includes a lot of factors which have nothing to do with the game.

>

> For example a friend of mine once assured me that £100 really isn't a lot of money to spend on a pair of jeans...but she earns almost 4 times what I do so she can afford to spend more on almost anything. Also she's a lot less likely to damage her jeans. On the other hand she thinks I'm utterly mad for spending £70 (or more!) to go and see a band perform live when I already have their CD and I can listed to their music whenever I like. I can't get her to understand that hearing the songs live is nothing like hearing a recording and there's so much more to a concert than simply hearing the music. It just doesn't interest her, so she doesn't get it, just like I don't get her willingness to spend so much on clothes.

>

> It's the same with items in games. Some people aren't interested in some/all of them so they don't think they're worth any amount of money and anything people do spend is therefore too much. Other people love them and would spend more than they actually cost if they had to. And some like some items and not others.

>

> Then we get into what I call 'mental gymnastics' (because you're twisting yourself around to make it happen). For example I bought the Ultimate Edition of both HoT and PoF because it worked out cheaper. How could spending more possibly be cheaper? Because I buy gems periodically anyway and I knew I could trust myself not to spend them on things I wouldn't normally buy just because they were there. So I basically bought 4,000 gems at full price and got the Deluxe editions of the expansions for just over the price of the Standard versions. So am I whale for buying the most expensive packs, or am I being cheap by spending less overall? Or both?

 

Pretty much this.

This conversation happens whenever something in the gem store surfaces that people want but find too expensive to acquire, but the truth of the matter is if they are sold at that price as a pattern, they are being bought reliably enough to not justify lowering it.

Keep in mind that:

 

*skins do not give competitive or in game advantages beyond prestige/eyecandy

*The people who pay for gems support the game and allow players who dont often by gems to acquire them with gold.

 

That's essentially a win win. you can get items through the gem store for free if you grind it enough.

 

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> I still think there should be some special title or infusion (maybe of floating gold coins or money signs) for those that have spent a certain amount of money on this game. That’d be an easy way to find the whales.

 

You'd make the players that support the game targets for people who think they are keeping the prices or mount skins high, and end up hurting everyone. people get harassed and Anet loses money from people who would like to just play in peace.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> My honest opinion: What possible reason is there for me to care what someone else spends on the game?

 

Promote this guy/gal! It's probably mostly [Pareto Distribution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution "Pareto Distribution") at work.

 

D:

[DeanBB.4268]

Hmm, I do spend a lot on this game. The only time I buy gold>gems though is via transferring gold to an alt account so it can buy gems for a bank slot or whatever. So I suppose I am a whale?

 

I haven't read most of this thread, but I propose a new label for those who *don't* spend $$$ on the game: Sponge!

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > I still think there should be some special title or infusion (maybe of floating gold coins or money signs) for those that have spent a certain amount of money on this game. That’d be an easy way to find the whales.

>

> You'd make the players that support the game targets for people who think they are keeping the prices or mount skins high, and end up hurting everyone. people get harassed and Anet loses money from people who would like to just play in peace.

 

Well if it was a title then it would be entirely optional whether you show it or not. Someone could spend thousands every month but never display the title and pretend they got all the gem store items by converting gold. I'm not saying it's a good idea, because I think it would open people up to a lot of negative reactions (from both 'sides' - people who will judge those who don't spend enough to get it and people who will judge those who do) and I can't see any real benefit to it. But at least it would be up to you to paint the target on your back (or above your head) if it ever was implemented.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Whales can set a precedent in how items are released and sold that can ruin it for everyone else. Its happened to dozens of games I've played before.

[Perses.9683]

I’m not sure if I would qualify as a “whale” but I’ll typically spend anywhere from 20-50$ a month (maybe up to $100 some months) on gems depending on if there’s anything I want in the gem store. I don’t do gem—> gold conversion because I’ll farm the gold for something I want for gold in game but I’m not going to farm gold to get gems.

 

But I also work full time and have a family and so my playtime fluctuates. I make pretty good money and can afford to spend money on my hobbies. If this conversation was happening 15 years ago I absolutely would’ve been a gamer who would’ve farmed for hours in game to get enough gold to do gem conversion - but I also had way more time back then when I was still a student. Just depends on your personal situation.

[Kaiser.9873]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> I stopped buying gems around HoT release. Now I'm paying for expansion releases only. So, compared to me, a whale is anyone who spends any amount of gems between expansions. I like whales. They allow me to play content for almost free. We need more whales. We should encourage whales to spend even more. Not to mention that GW2 monetization system if more than fair compared to their competition. I dare to say it's socialist state working as intended. Thanks to gems2gold and gold2gems wealth is redistributed between those who have money and those who have time with no impact on player individual performance, skill or power level. The only other game being that fair to customers is Path of Exile.

 

Right there with you. Was a pretty heavy gem buyer pre-HoT. A subscription would have been much cheaper to me, but then HoT came out. Slowed gem buying down for me to maybe every third month or so. Since PoF popped I've bought gems with gold only. Simply cannot justify fashion wars with as many new skins as they have been producing.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> So I'm one of the whales. I've spent an awful lot of money on this game. I spend money because I have money. Whatever my hobby is at any given time I'm going to spend money on it.

>

> I don't sell gems to get gold though, I just buy stuff in the cash shop that I like, or in some cases, black lion keys, because I enjoy opening chests. The random factor doesn't particularly bother me, any more than it bothered me back in the days I used to buy base ball cards.

>

> If people want to judge me for supporting a game I play a lot of that's fine. Dollars per hour this is still the cheapest form of entertainment I've ever had. I play with my wife, and we both enjoy it. We're also both retired.

>

> But I'm not here to justify myself to anyone. I play and pay because I want to. If I had to, I wouldn't do it.

 

Pretty much this.