Master Ketsu.4569 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > > Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge. > > > > > 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1. > > > > > > > > > > I contest that no one can do this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Challenge accepted > > > > > > 1.) Stunbreak on dodge is only if you trait it. You lose DPS when you take this. Not much different that people doing damage on dodge, or healing when they dodge. With the amount of CC now a days it shouldn't be as big of an issue. It may even be a trade-off due to the lack of any "decent" condi clears that most other classes have. > > > 2.) If you know what a Mirage is by definition, and look at what the class represents, you would already know your answer. Asking this seems moot. Why does daredevil get 3 dodges? Why do guardians get passive defensive abilities? Think about that. (hint, look at their class and theme) > > > > > > Have a great day bud, no contest. What do I win? > > > > The fact that you have to try and argue it should exist this way because of the lore and not any legitimate balance reason is proof that you are fully aware that it's busted. > > > > Stop being intellectually dishonest. > > > > > > > > No one mentioned lore, just the theme that the creators intended. It fits with the class. > > Also I thought we were debating not arguing. If you wish to argue, by all means, however I will then bow out as I don't care for arguing. > > You mention of balance reasons and looking at my comment, im pretty sure I mentioned a trade off with examples. It can even be asked why a Daredevil gets a 3rd piece to their endurance bar, giving them more dodges. By the sounds of it, you are looking for a "specific argument" so please, specify what it is you are looking for so I can retort. > > Lastly...im rarely dishonest in these forums so if I were you, I would get off the high horse and instead of looking for an "Argument", keep it as a debate and state an intelligent rebuttal so we can discuss this politely and professionally (which I am game for) > > I should probably admit that my challenge was intentionally fubar. I only stated that #2 didn't have to contradict #1. I did not state what the nature of the answer had to be or if it had to make any sense. Technically this means anyone can satisfy the questions with even a total non-sequitur such as "1. Mesmer should have EM because moose divided by squirrel 2. Other classes should not have it because donkey butts." My point was not to see if anyone could do it ( Since obviously now that I've revealed the flaw anyone can ) but to give people a choice. A choice to either give an answer that is based on sound balance reasoning, or a ludicrous answer that has absolutely nothing to do with balance in any way shape or form. If it really was balanced, you would have chosen the first, not the second. This means that on a subconscious level, you already know it's broken so there is no point in "debating" or "arguing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferus.3165 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 > @"Virelion.4128" said: > Nerf condi on mirage, do not touch power shatter. > > Spellbreaker is class for noobs anyway, sustain is way overtuned. They should not allow adrenal health to be proced from full counter, that's all. same as mirage dodge is completely overtuned... it should grant 1 sec protection and resi on use and no evasion. you'd still get the offensive skills though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 > @"Ferus.3165" said: > > @"Virelion.4128" said: > > Nerf condi on mirage, do not touch power shatter. > > > > Spellbreaker is class for noobs anyway, sustain is way overtuned. They should not allow adrenal health to be proced from full counter, that's all. > > same as mirage dodge is completely overtuned... it should grant 1 sec protection and resi on use and no evasion. you'd still get the offensive skills though. Did you even bother reading what you just wrote? Mirage Cloak to not give dodge... I can't even... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 > @"Ferus.3165" said: > > @"Virelion.4128" said: > > Nerf condi on mirage, do not touch power shatter. > > > > Spellbreaker is class for noobs anyway, sustain is way overtuned. They should not allow adrenal health to be proced from full counter, that's all. > > same as mirage dodge is completely overtuned... it should grant 1 sec protection and resi on use and no evasion. you'd still get the offensive skills though. This would cause the opposite problem and make Mirage worthless. Removing evasion entirely would make the spec a pariah in all forms of PvP and possibly even make it arseballs in PvE too. Every mes main would switch to Chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 edit wrong quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @"Arlette.9684" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting. > > > > > > > > > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me? > > > > > > > > > > That's the point? > > > > > > > > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth: > > > > > > why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM > > > > > > :o > > > > Are you Jannie’s alt? > > yeidt edit sorry wrong quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting. > > > > > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me? > > > > > > That's the point? > > > > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth: > > why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM > > :o or you could bait out the dodge and then bait out the 2nd dodge. may be high teir plat is different to wvw but baiting out vs high skilled players works the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlette.9684 Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting. > > > > > > > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me? > > > > > > > > That's the point? > > > > > > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth: > > > > why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM > > > > :o > > or you could bait out the dodge and then bait out the 2nd dodge. may be high teir plat is different to wvw but baiting out vs high skilled players works the same THIS! So much THIS! Can we get this line copyrighted and trade marked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting. > > > > > > > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me? > > > > > > > > That's the point? > > > > > > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth: > > > > why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM > > > > :o > > or you could bait out the dodge and then bait out the 2nd dodge. may be high teir plat is different to wvw but baiting out vs high skilled players works the same Are we in the WvW forums? Bait em out...bait bait bait...with how many others might be attacking? Mesmer is still overtuned. Bu, you know what....they have a balance patch being dumped the same day next week as the season starts. so im sure all that will be done by then is done. fingers crossed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > > > > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > > > > > > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. > > > > > > Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. > > > > I already said why I think its over tuned and it had nothing to do with condi or builds.... I honestly think that area of mes is mostly balanced. > > > > my thought on it being over tuned is what I said earlier, it didnt just get a secondary mechanic, it got secondary mechanics and casting while dodging imo is almost game breaking and I view it the same as Spellbreaker being able to use 100b while protected by full counter. > > > > but wait theres more!!! > > > > not only can we cast while dodging but we can literally dodge out of CC and skills like entangling vines which makes ranger elite useless while also simultaneously removing the need for active decision making, instead of dodging the stun, just eat the stun and keep moving like nothing happened.... > > > > every other class has to bring a stun break but not the mes, no need for 30s stun breaks when you can passively recharge it with sigils and endurance to use at whim. > > > > and then you got the other things I listed such as clone swapping which is unique to mirage, clone mirrors and so forth... target breaking I dislike as I met a few that take mirror images and other target breaking skills combined with stealth, it became a little too hard to play single target abilties against them such as FA build. > > > > > > thats it, nothing to do with builds or what ever, just how the secondary mechanics work and the abundance of them with the latest expansion. > > Your example falls short because Mirage Cloak doesn't let you cast Ambushes while channeling something else and Full Counter is a block and evade and an aoe attack as well Mesmer doesn't have a single channeled skill that's as impactful as 100b could be. > > I already said EM was overtuned, almost every other Mesmer on the OF did too. Nobody thought it was a good idea, but ANet likes the theme, there's not much we can do about it except wait until Tuesday. And if it's about dodging while stunned, same advice as before, learn to delay your burst, adapt. Any other class can use sigils or runes to recharge their dodges and nullify attacks, it just happens to synergize well with Mirage which is unfortunate. > > Clone Swapping? Do you mean shadowstepping them around your target which is literally only on Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush which no one takes? There is no swapping aside from Sword 3. Mirage Mirrors are pickups, everyone despises pick ups, it makes your movement and purpose incredibly obvious plus the only time Mirrors will appear on most builds is after they use Distortion, they're not oppressive. As far as target breaking I know there's no shortage of people who have posted what targeting settings you need to make that less effective. Sorry ANet decided clones should be a bit more than cleave fodder? > > So you got hard countered on FA weaver, pretty sure that was gonna happen on most Mesmer builds. Delaying the burst does Jack. They have blink, and jaunt to simply move out of any burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > > > Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge. > > > > > > 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1. > > > > > > > > > > > > I contest that no one can do this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Challenge accepted > > > > > > > > 1.) Stunbreak on dodge is only if you trait it. You lose DPS when you take this. Not much different that people doing damage on dodge, or healing when they dodge. With the amount of CC now a days it shouldn't be as big of an issue. It may even be a trade-off due to the lack of any "decent" condi clears that most other classes have. > > > > 2.) If you know what a Mirage is by definition, and look at what the class represents, you would already know your answer. Asking this seems moot. Why does daredevil get 3 dodges? Why do guardians get passive defensive abilities? Think about that. (hint, look at their class and theme) > > > > > > > > Have a great day bud, no contest. What do I win? > > > > > > The fact that you have to try and argue it should exist this way because of the lore and not any legitimate balance reason is proof that you are fully aware that it's busted. > > > > > > Stop being intellectually dishonest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one mentioned lore, just the theme that the creators intended. It fits with the class. > > > > Also I thought we were debating not arguing. If you wish to argue, by all means, however I will then bow out as I don't care for arguing. > > > > You mention of balance reasons and looking at my comment, im pretty sure I mentioned a trade off with examples. It can even be asked why a Daredevil gets a 3rd piece to their endurance bar, giving them more dodges. By the sounds of it, you are looking for a "specific argument" so please, specify what it is you are looking for so I can retort. > > > > Lastly...im rarely dishonest in these forums so if I were you, I would get off the high horse and instead of looking for an "Argument", keep it as a debate and state an intelligent rebuttal so we can discuss this politely and professionally (which I am game for) > > > > > > I should probably admit that my challenge was intentionally fubar. I only stated that #2 didn't have to contradict #1. I did not state what the nature of the answer had to be or if it had to make any sense. Technically this means anyone can satisfy the questions with even a total non-sequitur such as > "1. Mesmer should have EM because moose divided by squirrel 2. Other classes should not have it because donkey butts." > > My point was not to see if anyone could do it ( Since obviously now that I've revealed the flaw anyone can ) but to give people a choice. A choice to either give an answer that is based on sound balance reasoning, or a ludicrous answer that has absolutely nothing to do with balance in any way shape or form. If it really was balanced, you would have chosen the first, not the second. *This means that on a subconscious level, you already know it's broken so there is no point in "debating" or "arguing".* > > Unless you are a psychology major, you should not assume anything from a psychology level when responding to something in text form as opposed to face to face :) That being said, I firmly believe its not "broken", however in this instance the term "broken" is being used subjectively, thus we will have different viewpoints on the term (same as ones like OP for example). In regards to your fubar challenge, I am always up for a challenge so no matter how fubar, if its something that I have a thought with, I'm in. Every class has mechanics that give them some sort of edge. True balance will only come if things like HP and damage are streamlined, meaning only skill and class mechanics can make you succeed. As mentioned, classes like daredevil (that I mained for years) also have mechanics that are "unbalanced" due to having extra dodges, that also grant bonuses and boons, and some which grant extra mobility (which on a class that has superior mobility already), yet I rarely see posts about that, esp now a days. I assume part of it is thematic. The only parts about mirage I can agree need to be balanced a bit are: Elusive Mind: (remove stun break. Mirages can dodge during a stun anyway. Keep the 1 condi cleared and remove the fatigued debuff). This makes the trait aligned with the one for ranger. Where its a GM, maybe have it grant something like protection for a couple seconds. Or remove the stun break and have it grant stability instead? Personally I like the 1st idea Sword Main Hand: This is a Damage / CC / Leap (thus mobilty) all in one for ambush alone. Thematically the leap doesn't belong. Maybe cut the leap down? Condition damage: Some condis still have a ways to go in order to be "balanced" imo. Confusion and torment fit the class, however as its been said many times, its the application thats the issue. The # of stacks that can be applied and the frequency. Reducing the stacks to somewhere between where it is now, and where it was when condi mirage was nerfed (somewhere in the middle) would be the easier option as scaling the damage itself would take more time. Theres a reason condi mirage is a meme build..."those that can't mirage, go pure condi." I can respect a condi mirage if running hybrid (ie vipers) as they are then glass cannons for damage so squish, not dishing out the great damage and hiding being tank stats (imagine if mirage had barrier stacking close to scourge...how gross would that be?) This is just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 elusive mind is prob the biggest problem, which anet seems unwilling to change. 3s of exhaustion looks like all we're gonna get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hsiao.9705 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 They should just make Mesmer likes GW1 without those clones and phantoms!! They can get skills like cc and degen like they were back then. They didn’t have clones back then why they got it now? Mesmer have invis, clone, and high mobility with multiple teleport skills like wtf is this? The whole class itself is broken and making mirage made it even more broken!! Oh and don’t even try to argue about thief have mobility or stealth too! Because they got no clones so once they’re out of stealth you don’t have to try to tab 500x times to find the real Mesmer again!! Nerf the Mesmer already!!!!! People who are against nerfing Mesmer are clearly those people who only enjoy the op class and afraid once it’s nerfed they can’t own with actual skills lol!!!! How about play something that requires skills to pwn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kounabi.4352 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 The think is ,nerf mesmer because i cant spot the real mesmer among the clones?need skill for that?its easy to spot the real one if you play mesmer and mesmer have low armor and low hp to balance the mobility they have. I dont play elusive mind and i dont use stealth all i have for defence is my clones to buy me some time, that is the mesmer playstyle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clownmug.8357 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Elusive mind is just a red herring that hides all the core mesmer power creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting. > > > > > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me? > > > > > > That's the point? > > > > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth: > > why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM > > :o You're not entitled to a burst just because you landed a CC effect, otherwise stun break wouldn't even exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting. > > > > > > > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me? > > > > > > > > That's the point? > > > > > > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth: > > > > why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM > > > > :o > > You're not entitled to a burst just because you landed a CC effect, otherwise stun break wouldn't even exist. That's not what he's saying. He's saying you __should have to use a break or blink__ to avoid a burst after being CCed. Tying burst avoidance to dodges that be used at any point while CCed is too forgiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting. > > > > > > > > > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me? > > > > > > > > > > That's the point? > > > > > > > > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth: > > > > > > why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM > > > > > > :o > > > > You're not entitled to a burst just because you landed a CC effect, otherwise stun break wouldn't even exist. > > That's not what he's saying. He's saying you __should have to use a break or blink__ to avoid a burst after being CCed. Tying burst avoidance to dodges that be used at any point while CCed is too forgiving. And my point is that if all Mirage brings is a slightly longer dodge and being able to channel skills during it, it's not enough because most of the innate skills from Mesmer are unimpactful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > And my point is that if all Mirage brings is a slightly longer dodge and being able to channel skills during it, it's not enough because most of the innate skills from Mesmer are unimpactful. *squint* Why are you avoiding talking about Mirage Cloaks ability to provide evade while CCed without taking Elusive Mind? That's the meat of the issue here if I'm reading this properly. What you stated is not all Mirage brings. The way it stands now, as long as a Mirage has half endurance it can avoid any subsequent follow up to stun by dodging, whether or not Elusive Mind is traited. The facts that the dodge is slightly longer and channeling is uninterrupted are annoying, but less relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Mirage should not be able to dodge while cc'd, just like EVERY other class. The stunbreak on Elusive Mind definitely needs to be removed. The entire trait could be reworked to: _"Elusive Mind - Deception skills gain 20% reduced recharge and remove 1 (or 2) condition(s)."_ Which is a much more balanced iteration compared to the current one. If the new EM removes 2 conditions, Jaunt would have its single condition removal taken off so it doesn't cleanse 3 conditions every 8 seconds. If it only removes 1, keep the single condition removal on Jaunt. I think a single condition removal on the new EM is the more balanced option. As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwahrheit.4203 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > Mirage should not be able to dodge while cc'd, just like EVERY other class. The stunbreak on Elusive Mind definitely needs to be removed. The entire trait could be reworked to: > > _"Elusive Mind - Deception skills gain 20% reduced recharge and remove 1 (or 2) condition(s)."_ > > Which is a much more balanced iteration compared to the current one. If the new EM removes 2 conditions, Jaunt would have its single condition removal taken off so it doesn't cleanse 3 conditions every 8 seconds. If it only removes 1, keep the single condition removal on Jaunt. I think a single condition removal on the new EM is the more balanced option. > > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does. This guy gets it. Even if they nerfed the defensive mechanics where you can do cheese garbage, you'll have something else to fall back on. Mesmer was ALWAYS like this. This class could literally function without a stun break, even back in the day they could just spam stun breaks while being able to evade while attacking. ANET doesn't have ANY principles or morals, this is why ESL dropped GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Tom Hsiao.9705" said: > They should just make Mesmer likes GW1 without those clones and phantoms!! They can get skills like cc and degen like they were back then. They didn’t have clones back then why they got it now? Mesmer have invis, clone, and high mobility with multiple teleport skills like kitten is this? The whole class itself is broken and making mirage made it even more broken!! > If mesmer were like gw1 ones, people that are now qqing would had ragequit long ago. Gw1 mes is superior to gw2 ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > And my point is that if all Mirage brings is a slightly longer dodge and being able to channel skills during it, it's not enough because most of the innate skills from Mesmer are unimpactful. > > *squint* > > Why are you avoiding talking about Mirage Cloaks ability to provide evade while CCed without taking Elusive Mind? That's the meat of the issue here if I'm reading this properly. > What you stated is not all Mirage brings. The way it stands now, as long as a Mirage has half endurance it can avoid any subsequent follow up to stun by dodging, whether or not Elusive Mind is traited. The facts that the dodge is slightly longer and channeling is uninterrupted are annoying, but less relevant. That is exactly what I mentioned. Read into it just a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Every grandmaster trait modify dodge (just like daredevil) ,but he want to take it away ... He gets it ! /s Especially funny that he want to put something daredevil gets at first tier trait mirage should get as grandmaster,rofl >ANET doesn't have ANY principles or morals, this is why ESL dropped GW2. You didnt get it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > Mirage should not be able to dodge while cc'd, just like EVERY other class. The stunbreak on Elusive Mind definitely needs to be removed. The entire trait could be reworked to: > > _"Elusive Mind - Deception skills gain 20% reduced recharge and remove 1 (or 2) condition(s)."_ > > Which is a much more balanced iteration compared to the current one. If the new EM removes 2 conditions, Jaunt would have its single condition removal taken off so it doesn't cleanse 3 conditions every 8 seconds. If it only removes 1, keep the single condition removal on Jaunt. I think a single condition removal on the new EM is the more balanced option. > > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does. If deception skills weren't so horribly meh you might be on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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