At what point is a single burst too strong?

[Kuchiki.9352]

It is incredibly hard to balance every game mode at the same time in the same way. It's no news that many of us would appreciate the separated balance as it was done in GW1. Dreaming about a bigger development team for PvP for a long time. Hope that when that happens (yes I still believe that will happen) they will focus on this issues.

[incisorr.9502]

25k damage 4 sec cooldown non-projectile that also buffs your pet? BETTER NERF MIRAGE AM I RIGHT ANET XD

 

this has been in the game for awhile but they nerfed non-meta classes instead

[BlackTruth.6813]

Soulbeast needed that nerf as well in all honesty. Soulbeast has one of the most EASIEST dodge baits in the game. Literally you bait with your pet and yourself, literally can't be more easy than that.

 

And for a low cooldown? Maul is disgusting.

 

Rom is still doing fine with a glass cannon soulbeast at high level play. Pretty sure he can be untouchable if he figures out a way to do that GS auto cancel. Ranger is disgusting. Always was a zero skill class.

[Swagg.9236]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> > > @"Ralkuth.1456" said:

> >

> >

> > I'm aware of how to beat soulbeast. I've certainly faced enough of them. However, i find it nearly incomprehensible how this type of damage on a single ability is defendable . Especially considering the versatility of Soulbeast and how often it finds success in the highest teirs of pvp. Yes, the answer to LITERALLY EVERY ABILITY IN THIS GAME is dodge. Yes, weakness is good against power builds. However, if those were legit answers to soulbeast, it wouldn't be among the best pvp classes in the game. Given the history of Anet nerfing OHKs, i'm asking how this is still acceptable.

>

> But the issue is here, this is not a "single ability", you weren't OHK. Like he explained to you this is the result of a combo of quite a few abilities.

 

Despite the fact that GW2 PvP "burst" is indeed a string of abilities, the concept of the ubiquitously uttered "random dodge" is a testament to the "single-button OHKO" feeling which they collectively affect upon players. Single dodges can mitigate huge chunks (if not all) of an incoming burst rotation (whether intentionally timed or not). Given the fact that these single dodges only provide 0.75s of invulnerability and that an entire lethal burst can fit into that tiny window, doesn't it seem feasible to argue how a meta PvP burst in GW2 could basically be condensed down to just a single button in theory? Sure, yeah, a person has to press, like, 5 extra buttons sometimes, but it is really that difficult (especially if stealth exists and the game aims for the player in most cases)? It's just muscle memory on a keyboard: very low skill ceiling; low effort for the pay-off. Due to the general TTK in GW2 PvP, surviving a burst could very well be expressed by a single dodge negating a single attack.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> If you manage to break it's combo, he lose most of it's damages. You could have put a _reaper's mark_, a _well of darkness_, a _spectral ring_ or/and a _corrosive poison cloud_ (maybe even a _well of corruption_) at your feat to cut it's combo.

 

Most players burst with minimal risk (stability, mirage cloak, stealth, instantaneous gap closers). Interrupts and cast times (even minute ones like 0.5s) aren't necessarily viable especially since most bursts won't get interrupted due to stability stacks and often inflict hard CC simultaneously alongside lethal damage. Moreover, even if one puts out something preemptively like a bait dodge or a corrosive poison cloud or what not, it's very easy to just not burst, or use half a burst, or even just completely waste a burst and then wait until one can use it again (since defensive CDs like poison cloud--which isn't even good and has a longer CD than a lot rotation-based damage negation--often have much longer recharges than just regular burst rotations). It's a really pathetic situation.

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

You do realize there are only like 3 people in NA that are even able to run DPS Soulbeast in competitive environments? There are reasons for that you know. The very same reasons why DE has always had low representation in team play, right down there with Renegade.

[Vagrant.7206]

The big problem with soulbeast burst as it stands right now is all the multipliers. ArenaNet needs to be much more cautious about handing out significant multipliers than it has been doing in the past. If soulbeast is to be kept viable (but without this kind of annoying multiplier behavior), the multipliers need to be greatly reduced, but the base damage of the skills buffed to compensate.

 

You don't want the multipliers to be removed entirely -- they emphasize the bursty nature of play, but they shouldn't be stacking nearly as badly as they are now.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

This guy is playing scourge and is complaining about Longbow dps ranger. Ofcourse scourge get obliterated by that, but it doesnt mean that Longbow dps ranger is OP. This is just symptomatic for whats wrong with these forums and why no one takes these forums seriously.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> This guy is playing scourge and is complaining about Longbow dps ranger. Ofcourse scourge get obliterated by that, but it doesnt mean that Longbow dps ranger is OP. This is just symptomatic for whats wrong with these forums and why no one takes these forums seriously.

 

Pvp -

 

WvW -

 

The OP apparently plays a weak class.....-_-

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> >-sometext-

> >yet core guard gets the big nerf

> 25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.

> Big nerf on core guard my as$

 

I actually swapped to core guard from Dh, it still quite good just a minimal loss in some other stats I’d try to compensate for the nerf on crt chance.

 

[getalifeturd.8139]

A burst is too strong when the only counterplay is to have invulnerability mechanics to avoid it. Arenanet has slowly added more damage and passive mitigation to the game where they feel the players just need to get good. Or maybe they just don't care and have sadomasochistic tendencies and get off on people dying. All I know is real life gives much more of an adrenaline rush from extreme sports like skateboarding, than I ever got from years of dopamine addiction to these Random Number Generated Skinner boxes people call competitive gaming.

 

TL;DR: If you die before it even pings the server.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> You do realize there are only like 3 people in NA that are even able to run DPS Soulbeast in competitive environments? There are reasons for that you know. The very same reasons why DE has always had low representation in team play, right down there with Renegade.

 

Sounds like a trademark Incisorr "high elo" argument in defense of the "most cyberbullied class." If that doesn't make (pre-nerf) condi-Mirage any less of a problem (according to the vocal majority), why is DPS Soulbeast any different?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

If a move can hit you for **all your HP**, even when you are not playing glass, without:

 

having a clearly visible telegraph of at least a couple of seconds

 

or

 

while also having the means to HIDE the telegraph without significant windup

 

The burst is too strong.

 

There is no rational explanation for having a combination of buffs that can lead to you doing 27k damage to a single target in pvp in one move, especially if that move can be hidden by stealth.

 

[zoopop.5630]

anything that's 1 shot is pretty bad for the game and cancerous. I dislike anything that requires the ability to 1shot someone regardless of how skilled it may take to play it. Same is said for any spec that has the ability to tank more then 2 people at the same time. Builds like that just destroy the game and screams unbalance.

[dominik.9721]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> anything that's 1 shot is pretty bad for the game and cancerous. I dislike anything that requires the ability to 1shot someone regardless of how skilled it may take to play it. Same is said for any spec that has the ability to tank more then 2 people at the same time. Builds like that just destroy the game and screams unbalance.

 

This is true.

However, oneshotting is nowadays the only reliable way to get kills against shizzle like fb and scourge

[Burnfall.9573]

Competitive games requires effort, skill, learning with strict rules implemented= risk+reward.

**Guild Wars 2 requires neither**

 

High burst-1 shotting simply proves it. Instant high numbers= instant win

 

**Guild Wars 2 is a number game, balancing around toxicity. More toxicity= higher numbers**

 

enjoy the video; it never gets old

 

-Analysis: The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap-

 

[Arkantos.7460]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> > >-sometext-

> > >yet core guard gets the big nerf

> > 25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.

> > Big nerf on core guard my as$

>

> Except herald has 7k more HP, much better mobility and better overall sustainability by avoiding most incoming damage.

>

> Core guardian is currently not sPvP viable.

 

i see many core guards

[dominik.9721]

> @"Arkantos.7460" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> > > >-sometext-

> > > >yet core guard gets the big nerf

> > > 25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.

> > > Big nerf on core guard my as$

> >

> > Except herald has 7k more HP, much better mobility and better overall sustainability by avoiding most incoming damage.

> >

> > Core guardian is currently not sPvP viable.

>

> i see many core guards

 

Rev is better but core guard is viable as long as me and tolfdir play it

[zoopop.5630]

> @"dominik.9721" said:

> > @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > anything that's 1 shot is pretty bad for the game and cancerous. I dislike anything that requires the ability to 1shot someone regardless of how skilled it may take to play it. Same is said for any spec that has the ability to tank more then 2 people at the same time. Builds like that just destroy the game and screams unbalance.

>

> This is true.

> However, oneshotting is nowadays the only reliable way to get kills against kitten like fb and scourge

 

agree but Scourge is pretty easy to kill now days especially after the slight nerf they got a few months back.

[dominik.9721]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > @"dominik.9721" said:

> > > @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > > anything that's 1 shot is pretty bad for the game and cancerous. I dislike anything that requires the ability to 1shot someone regardless of how skilled it may take to play it. Same is said for any spec that has the ability to tank more then 2 people at the same time. Builds like that just destroy the game and screams unbalance.

> >

> > This is true.

> > However, oneshotting is nowadays the only reliable way to get kills against kitten like fb and scourge

>

> agree but Scourge is pretty easy to kill now days especially after the slight nerf they got a few months back.

 

Yea but only as long as they are not supported by fb. There is nothing more disgusting than a scourge in midfight on capricorn, standing highground while supported by a fb.

[Snellibee.2761]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> > >-sometext-

> > >yet core guard gets the big nerf

> > 25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.

> > Big nerf on core guard my as$

>

> Except herald has 7k more HP, much better mobility and better overall sustainability by avoiding most incoming damage.

>

> Core guardian is currently not sPvP viable.

 

Better sustainability is a though one as guards can stay alive for quiet a long time by just using their abilities one by one. However, the reason core guard was supposedly "butchered" is because of how much dmg it could do in less than one second. But instead of fixing that problem they fix something else that nobody asked for (like anet always does). Imo they should've just made it so Guardians can't cast their skills and then shadowstep on you mid cast to do massive damage. It's a pretty lame mechanic

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Ralkuth.1456" said:

> > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> >

> > I'm aware of how to beat soulbeast. I've certainly faced enough of them. However, i find it nearly incomprehensible how this type of damage on a single ability is defendable . Especially considering the versatility of Soulbeast and how often it finds success in the highest teirs of pvp. Yes, the answer to LITERALLY EVERY ABILITY IN THIS GAME is dodge. Yes, weakness is good against power builds. However, if those were legit answers to soulbeast, it wouldn't be among the best pvp classes in the game. Given the history of Anet nerfing OHKs, i'm asking how this is still acceptable.

>

> When people say "I don't see why..." it's a refutation to consider the other side of the argument. If a point need be discussed it's better to lay it all out, from all sides. There seems to be a focus on things like 1 trait line or 1 ability, and limited comparisons drawn without taking into account how the whole thing plays; *cleverly* done concept switch. Or maybe you're trying to be earnest.

>

> I'm not saying complaints are a bad thing - criticism can be constructive and conducive to many group activities. But I do believe that improvements to consistent, troubled situations lie mostly with the self, and not without - don't be so sure to point the finger at others unless you have become perfection itself, like that which was envisioned by Hegel (and his vision was flawed).

>

> I don't think Soulbeast has been that popular for as much as half a dozen seasons - in the previous metas before the S15 patch, Soulbeast doesn't actually have that much representation, Condi Mirages, Core Guards, Deadeyes and Rev (Herald) all make it fairly hard for it to see too much play in high Gold low Plat. It certainly was versatile, it had a decent shot against anything but it had to spend too much time getting pressured by classes that can last through its predictable bursts, and not outputting enough of its trademark damage.

>

> The answer to abilities doesn't end with dodge though - as Necro back in the Core and HoT Reaper days, you don't actually have that much room for error - good Necros know they can't play passive too much and their defense has always been heavy counter pressure.

>

> I notice you like to use OHK and "1 or 2 abilities" interchangeably. But in the case of Soulbeast, it's a CC -> Damage chain happening over several seconds. Competent Soulbeasts can actually Smoke Assault into a Hilt Bash to change things up and it comes out faster than Takedown, but even with quickness the Maul will take 0.5 seconds to cast - you can stunbreak into a dodge or corrupt boon or Fear in that time.

>

> If you want to blame 1 class 1 build (Berserker Soulbeast likely taking Marksmanship for yolo levels of burst and no survivability) for dying and you're not going to check minimap, not going to be aware of things on your screen, not going to save your dodges for important things, not going to position yourself so that you would be harder to burst (key to good Necros)... and you believe that just nerfing Soulbeast will make this game great for you again, then next up the hypothetical future revival of meme burst specs like Power Shatter Chrono that can definitely blow up everything in the game - things like this will earn another thread from you.

>

> I.e. When I can't do it, but other people don't have problems with it, I don't automatically assume there's something wrong with the world and others need to fix it. I assume that I suck and I need to work on fixing myself first.

> And don't worry, I know that I suck - that's why I'm never able to stay consistently in Plat. Working on it.

 

Quoted for truth. I wish more people had this attitude and outlook.

 

Please keep in mind OP that when dealing with stealth bursts anticipation is a big factor, if you cannot read your opponent they are going to capitalize on you. Pay attention to gauge stealth duration, distance, and activation time.

[otto.5684]

> @"Arkantos.7460" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> > > >-sometext-

> > > >yet core guard gets the big nerf

> > > 25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.

> > > Big nerf on core guard my as$

> >

> > Except herald has 7k more HP, much better mobility and better overall sustainability by avoiding most incoming damage.

> >

> > Core guardian is currently not sPvP viable.

>

> i see many core guards

 

And I see many scourges still standing in one spot thinking they can kill everyone in secs. Warriors that try to 3v1. That does not really mean much.

 

There has been a huge drop in core guardians being played. Also, as far as I am aware, there was only 3-4 players in the top 100 that played core guardian consistently. No matter what angle you look at it, it is a mediocre build. It always was, but at least before it was good at punishing opponents mistakes. Now it just.. meh.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Ralkuth.1456" said:

> If you want to blame 1 class 1 build (Berserker Soulbeast likely taking Marksmanship for yolo levels of burst and no survivability) for dying and you're not going to check minimap, not going to be aware of things on your screen, not going to save your dodges for important things, not going to position yourself so that you would be harder to burst (key to good Necros)... and you believe that just nerfing Soulbeast will make this game great for you again, then next up the hypothetical future revival of meme burst specs like Power Shatter Chrono that can definitely blow up everything in the game - things like this will earn another thread from you.

>

 

This, one hundred times this.

 

 

@Zephoid.4263

 

DPS is a role. Complaining about one DPS to get nerfed will just move people to the use the next one.

People love to complain about the guy tasked at doing damage and forget the whole team effort to get that guy to kill you.

 

Also, you are a Scourge. Highest Team DPS class in the game.

You have a literal target printed in your forehead. If you don't know how to pay attention to your surroundings or don't understand that every:

- Power Shiro,

- Core Guard,

- Meditrapper Dragon Hunter

- D/P Daredevil,

- S/D Core Thief,

- Power Core Ranger,

- Power SoulBeast,

- Tetherbreaker Warrior

- Rifle DeadEye

- Fresh Air Elementalist

- Shatter Mesmer...

 

...wants you dead because every SPvPer worth a salt knows that the Scourge must die as quick as possible because of how dangerous they are on teamfights you are just ignorant.

 

If you can't handle the fact you are a moving target, go play something else.

 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> DPS is a role. Complaining about one DPS to get nerfed will just move people to the use the next one.

 

Agree that DPS is a role. But DPS does not necessarily mean OHK (or close to that). I think OP's point is more: "OHK should not be in the game."

[Master Ketsu.4569]

It comes down to the interactivity problem.

 

DE has technically never been "OP" in the sense that what it does isn't the best for winning games. Like if you have seen decent DEs like Clown or Sir, their playstyle makes themselves unkillable but also puts their own team at risk since during setup they are basically fighting 4v5.

 

The problem is DE has always been "unfair". There is **ZERO** counterplay to a properly played DE burst. None. Zilch. Nada. Multiple Gods of PvP have stated this problem with DE. It's a shitty uninteractive cheese strategy that is bad for the game. Anet needs to rethink the class from a PvP perspective.