Aeolus.3615 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 > @"Lethe.1640" said: > Because they don't care about any WvW server other than BG. Im actually starting to belive that... is it true tey opened it again?? or that was a meme joke? Devs should come to t4..... to see how imbalance population is... pairing empty servers with empty servers against blobby servers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"Lethe.1640" said: > > Because they don't care about any WvW server other than BG. > > Im actually starting to belive that... is it true tey opened it again?? or that was a meme joke? > > Devs should come to t4..... to see how imbalance population is... pairing empty servers with empty servers against blobby servers... +1 it was open The cycle will continue; those blobby servers will soon get bored and frustrated. They also will leave after being bored of spamming their Toxic Bad Design Professions endlessly. Yup! this game is all about whoever can damage the highest and the quickest= Wins!! -as i'm writing this; there are only 2 full servers remaining **Surprised Anyone!!** (Anet has continuously made it clear with each balance patches; they are not in our best interest to decrease the damage they're doing to the game, so we respond by walking away from this endless Toxicity) --as i'm writing this, one of my toons was shot with over 12k Prime Light Beam by an Engineer. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prime_Light_Beam **Happily Logging out** Keep speaking the Truth Aeolus including everyone -have a good day everyone- :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L A T I O N.8923 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 > @"Eremes Guile.1480" said: > > @"Vova.2640" said: > > > @"Eremes Guile.1480" said: > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > > Most people hate BG because of their playstyle. The server that cares the most about PPT is obviously BG...I mean come on. Against BG, you can only get a fight with them if you attack their sieged up, tiered up objectives. At which point they will blob you down with 40+ then never even leave the objective afterward for open field fights. It's the best way to "win" but it's incredibly boring only fighting the "#1 server" when they have every advantage under the sun. Numbers, objective auras, tactivators, siege, etc. With cookie gone, there's not even anybody to fight anymore. Sorry but some BG people seem straight up delusional if they really can't see this. > > > > > > BG never open field fights? LOL > > > > The guy you're quoting is 100% right though. > > BG only "open fields" near t3 objectives where they have siege on walls and objective auras. > > Oh and of course numbers advantage. The full 2 months when we were hardstuck in T1 (a few months ago), only time we'd ever get a real open field fight is when BG has more numbers... > > > > That is precisely why no one wants to deal with BG. > > > > I really wish we had a week with no ACs, BG would drop out of T1 in a heart beat cause they wouldn't be able to hold any objective. > > And why would you wanna fight these bg near sieged up keep/tower? I mean its the only way to get a fight WITH bg that has a chance to end up without getting overrun by a mapq But yeah, you might not always have to look back i presume ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zikory.6871 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > @"Zikory.6871" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > I disagree BG being the reason why NA die. It is more appropriate to say BG is an example why NA dies. It demonstrated general players willingness to bandwagon to stack onto the servers. Such behaviors are repeatedly demonstrated on many other servers year after year. This culture is what really killing NA. People did suggested anet to exercise iron grip control to prevent such anti-competitive behavior but anet being anet, they won't do such a thing, they are afraid of voices. Gw2 simply failed, I got no idea what anet want gw2 to be, there is no concrete direction. Gw2 was well thought game but badly maintained. > > > > Blackgate is A reason NA is dying but not because they are stacked or are better. Simply put, not enough people want to organize a server to do what it would take to take down Blackgate. A handful of servers have stacked and pushed Blackgate into hibernation, then that server realizes they don't actually care about 1st and start to destack. Blackgate comes out of hibernation and its back to business as usual. > > > > Its part of the fundamental problem with WvW. How is WvW supposed to be played? Why is my 20 man group more right than cookies map queue? Were cookies players better then yours or is it just a failure to adapt? Because "fun"? Who defines fun? > > > > Want Blackgate to die? Stack 3 servers and 2v1 them for the next 6 mouths. The fair weathers will leave and there isn't very many "server pride" people left. If 6 months isn't long enough, keep going...Blackgate has been doing it since ~2012. > > What's killing NA more are the "fight guilds" that constantly swap servers and destroy the servers when they leave. Every single solitary time it's happened, that particular server ends up in T4 and is basically stuck there. Nothing to do with BG, but has everything to do with guilds joining a server, pillaging it, then leaving it, making it so the pugs or casuals or whoever else doesn't log into WvW on a regular basis, loses complete interest. > > The one thing that separates BG from everybody else is they seem to have a huge pug population or a population players that aren't hardcore guildies that will log on, and log on for many hours at a time. Every other server doesn't seem to have this; again, because these "fight guilds" that constantly jump, destroy the server. > > You'd be shocked to see just how many more players, guilds, and commanders are sitting on the neighboring T1 server. They grossly outnumber BG by a mile, but the exception is, they only seem to like to play on the weekends. That's not BG's problem, that's a player problem. Its not about what is killing NA "more", Its not a competition. The game mode is in decline and the player base is still in a pissing match. Fight guilds effect servers so much because they the ones that actually try to organize. Mals Kaineng alliance for example, TW OnS and others stacked and did well for almost a year. No word on alliances lead to TW leaving. People get bored and stop playing, that could be anything form the player bases fault to Anets fault, there are to many reasons for anyone to say "this is THE reason". I spent 5 years on BG, left to hop servers and a change of pace. I tend to lean towards people organizing to beat BG rather then BG be "deleted" or what ever. But the fact is, BG has a long history of organization that (even without those people) still remains on the server. Not that it really matters now, no one wants to spend all the time it takes to organize servers like they did in the past. At least not with WvW in its current state. There is a lot Anet needs to do to breath life back into WvW but the player base has a lot more to do with it then they accept. The main groups left on BG leaving to other servers is the best chance for the pug population to spread out and bring some of that dedication to other servers. Like I said, BG isn't THE problem but you're lieing to yourself if you don't think its "part of the problem" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Morbius.1759 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 I'm sorry but what is ultimately killing WvW is the balance or lack thereof. I can't tell you how sick I am of scourge / FB and the fact that you're only lucky or match them to win. Balance in this game sucks hard, worst I've ever seen but people blame every other aspect of the game. If we had decent balance everything would be a challenge, how to counter, what advantage do they have what do we bring? The game has simply become a zerg oriented no talent mess and this will continue until the team gets fixed. I've heard every excuse in the book from, balancing thematically to balancing for outcome...blah, blah, blah, what we are missing is true balance and a true rotation of metas. My fear is this won't happen until somebody at a much higher level clues into the fact the game has had a balance team which coasts, and or plays favorites....how else does one explain the mess we are in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acheron.4731 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 > @"Sleepwalker.1398" said: > This is just a suggestion.....Why doesn't Anet trial this. > Put some rewards back in EOTM and make the map a no HoT/PoF/Mount map as an event for a couple of weeks. > Just to see if it would interest some players who don't like the current meta or bring some old players back. It would be nice to have a core-only map. Good suggestion. Also, can they fill in all the holes in EOTM...it gives me gephyrophobia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oogabooga.3812 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 BG is a _symptom._ What would you do if you are tired of empty home and/or enemy servers, constantly losing in fights, have little idea of how to attack an objective, always losing at a matchup, when _magically_ the #1 server says it's open and welcoming all comers. Why wouldn't you want to move from a desolate server to a prosperous one if you can afford to do so? Wouldn't you want to experience a server that helps fight loneliness, that has people looking to fight or die (and that willingness being a main reason they win), and that has a winning tradition? Just look at professional sports teams and the players that move to or stay with the winning team for a pay cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 > @"Oogabooga.3812" said: > BG is a _symptom._ > > What would you do if you are tired of empty home and/or enemy servers, constantly losing in fights, have little idea of how to attack an objective, always losing at a matchup, when _magically_ the #1 server says it's open and welcoming all comers. > > Why wouldn't you want to move from a desolate server to a prosperous one if you can afford to do so? Wouldn't you want to experience a server that helps fight loneliness, that has people looking to fight or die (and that willingness being a main reason they win), and that has a winning tradition? > > Just look at professional sports teams and the players that move to or stay with the winning team for a pay cut. I’m still made at Kevin Durant lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Substance E.4852 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 -Discussion of why WvW NA isn't doing well -Immediately turns into an anti BG salt fest from people who admit to server hopping I see the circus is back in town... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > The one thing that separates BG from everybody else is they seem to have a huge pug population or a population players that aren't hardcore guildies that will log on, and log on for many hours at a time. Every other server doesn't seem to have this; again, because these "fight guilds" that constantly jump, destroy the server. No, the one thing that separates BG from everybody else is that BG is always closed. There are never any new players joining it that need to be trained in the ways of WvW. Other servers have never been closed for as long as BG is closed for, which means they have had a steady supply of new players always joining and those players are always new fodder. So when your server starts with the largest veteran player population and the best 24 hours coverage in the game, that confers quite an advantage that can't easily be overcome anymore. But it's ok because alliances will finally open BG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Yea that's right! It's BG's fault! Has nothing to do with Anet milking transfers. Anet is a godlike entity, for which, can never do wrong. Therefore, it must be all the fat kids fault's for eating "cake" (aka paying for Transfers) when hungry ??. While all the fat kids are suffering from self diagnosed "Fat Oppression"... Or should I say... "BG Oppression". How Sad ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 imo. we can break wvw so it reboots. why? to make it lively and more players enjoy how? reset wvw. announce a date where all servers will boot players. so those who like each other can setup their team. then they can stack. the active player base will have fun and so we can have some fun. remove k/d metric. why? because its there, we dont want to die. i admit i check it a lot and so i make sure we choose our fights and push to increase it and decrease the opposition. because we cant fight for points. how? just remove it. remove bonus stats on food/bloodlust/keeps and make it more on utility, i.e. boons lengthen, magic find, exp, karma, and rewards. why? players claim op and unbalanced damage? balance the food and make us rely more on what we already use our runes x sigils. a good team of 15 can wipe a bad team of 30+ with downs x warclaw. it is good, but imagine this 15 cant ever take the stuff of the 30+ hiding behind siege. removing the stat pluses can streamline balance and make it more about synergy and coordination. 24/7. why? its natural that timezones differ. so dont change it. we just have to accept that there isnt enough players to hold the fort sometimes. how? do nothing, its good. i was thinking about queus and stuff before like wow but, unless its eotm like, it cant really work. and i think its just fine we can come and go as we please in wvw. community agreement not to stack same players on the same time on one server. why? well, obviously you want someone to play with and if your on one server, you can't really have enemies. how? so consider if your server can queue 2 or 3 at prime for atleast 2 hours, its time to move to a server that can't. wvw stats can give you an idea on this. but i hope anet studies each server and see the activity and reward those who will change to a suggested server. i.e. cheaper transfer with gems. give us quarter tournaments. why? i for one would like to seriously compete with other servers. announce it, give us time to ally with other groups by reseting the population and then transfer to that server before it happens, then boom. how? announce at x date, wvw tournaments. within 2 months make server transfer cheap. 1 month before make it expensive. 2 weeks before the competition close transfers. then let us duke it out for a week until someone wins. then repeat the process. this way we will spend money for gems to coordinate etc. or stay where we are. also, im sure we will tap pve to make more gold too. hence allowing us wvw players to explore the rest of the game. wvw skins why? because dolyak mount, golem mount, char cycle, siege razer/crusher tonic. gvgs. well this will have to remain an inhouse thing. and community based. its for the serious gamer and let them make the rules. pvp already has something that can be made into an esport if the focus was on capture points and a bit of capture the flag. how? capture and plant flags as score. break the opponent's crystal. add mechanics of simple siege mechanics to do a tug of war. include auto option to roll x class with x specs so; players can't do the all x class. xxx said my peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oogabooga.3812 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Oogabooga.3812" said: > > BG is a _symptom._ > > > > What would you do if you are tired of empty home and/or enemy servers, constantly losing in fights, have little idea of how to attack an objective, always losing at a matchup, when _magically_ the #1 server says it's open and welcoming all comers. > > > > Why wouldn't you want to move from a desolate server to a prosperous one if you can afford to do so? Wouldn't you want to experience a server that helps fight loneliness, that has people looking to fight or die (and that willingness being a main reason they win), and that has a winning tradition? > > > > Just look at professional sports teams and the players that move to or stay with the winning team for a pay cut. > > I’m still made at Kevin Durant lol He did prove how valuable he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinas Dragonbane.2978 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"Arctisavange.7261" said: > Been playing and commanding since launch of the game. Do you think anyone in their right mind give any kitten about PPT and overall, flipping towers/keeps? > > WvW is massive PVP aka large scale player vs player. People who care about the game mode are here to fight enemies, not slap gates all day long and call it a GG if they climb a tier. So then.... was the game more popular when the majority of the wvw community's focus was on ppt, or nowadays when people say it's all about fights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakz.7051 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Because the focus is PvE and WvW and PvP are too much for them to balance well so they make quick fixes that usually hurt them more than help. If they can turn WvW around somehow I can see the game getting alot more activity but they keep pushing the PvE front exclusively (Which has kinda dropped) and leave what could be a great feature to stagnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acheron.4731 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 I know I will get a lot of flak for this but the loss of server pride certainly didn't help any. That, along with unregulated server hopping after re-links gave no one reason to care or even play. You already know if you are gonna win all the fights or lose before the match really begins. Did anyone mention the stale meta yet? It is hard to really even log in nowadays. The long loading screen alone causes me to lose interest pretty fast :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"Acheron.4731" said: > I know I will get a lot of flak for this but the loss of server pride certainly didn't help any. Yet everything you hear is BG this and BG that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"Dinas Dragonbane.2978" said: > > @"Arctisavange.7261" said: > > Been playing and commanding since launch of the game. Do you think anyone in their right mind give any kitten about PPT and overall, flipping towers/keeps? > > > > WvW is massive PVP aka large scale player vs player. People who care about the game mode are here to fight enemies, not slap gates all day long and call it a GG if they climb a tier. > So then.... was the game more popular when the majority of the wvw community's focus was on ppt, or nowadays when people say it's all about fights? > it was more popular when it mattered - by having tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"Zikory.6871" said: > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > @"Zikory.6871" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > I disagree BG being the reason why NA die. It is more appropriate to say BG is an example why NA dies. It demonstrated general players willingness to bandwagon to stack onto the servers. Such behaviors are repeatedly demonstrated on many other servers year after year. This culture is what really killing NA. People did suggested anet to exercise iron grip control to prevent such anti-competitive behavior but anet being anet, they won't do such a thing, they are afraid of voices. Gw2 simply failed, I got no idea what anet want gw2 to be, there is no concrete direction. Gw2 was well thought game but badly maintained. > > > > > > Blackgate is A reason NA is dying but not because they are stacked or are better. Simply put, not enough people want to organize a server to do what it would take to take down Blackgate. A handful of servers have stacked and pushed Blackgate into hibernation, then that server realizes they don't actually care about 1st and start to destack. Blackgate comes out of hibernation and its back to business as usual. > > > > > > Its part of the fundamental problem with WvW. How is WvW supposed to be played? Why is my 20 man group more right than cookies map queue? Were cookies players better then yours or is it just a failure to adapt? Because "fun"? Who defines fun? > > > > > > Want Blackgate to die? Stack 3 servers and 2v1 them for the next 6 mouths. The fair weathers will leave and there isn't very many "server pride" people left. If 6 months isn't long enough, keep going...Blackgate has been doing it since ~2012. > > > > What's killing NA more are the "fight guilds" that constantly swap servers and destroy the servers when they leave. Every single solitary time it's happened, that particular server ends up in T4 and is basically stuck there. Nothing to do with BG, but has everything to do with guilds joining a server, pillaging it, then leaving it, making it so the pugs or casuals or whoever else doesn't log into WvW on a regular basis, loses complete interest. > > > > The one thing that separates BG from everybody else is they seem to have a huge pug population or a population players that aren't hardcore guildies that will log on, and log on for many hours at a time. Every other server doesn't seem to have this; again, because these "fight guilds" that constantly jump, destroy the server. > > > > You'd be shocked to see just how many more players, guilds, and commanders are sitting on the neighboring T1 server. They grossly outnumber BG by a mile, but the exception is, they only seem to like to play on the weekends. That's not BG's problem, that's a player problem. > > Its not about what is killing NA "more", Its not a competition. The game mode is in decline and the player base is still in a pissing match. Fight guilds effect servers so much because they the ones that actually try to organize. Mals Kaineng alliance for example, TW OnS and others stacked and did well for almost a year. No word on alliances lead to TW leaving. People get bored and stop playing, that could be anything form the player bases fault to Anets fault, there are to many reasons for anyone to say "this is THE reason". > > I spent 5 years on BG, left to hop servers and a change of pace. I tend to lean towards people organizing to beat BG rather then BG be "deleted" or what ever. But the fact is, BG has a long history of organization that (even without those people) still remains on the server. Not that it really matters now, no one wants to spend all the time it takes to organize servers like they did in the past. At least not with WvW in its current state. > > There is a lot Anet needs to do to breath life back into WvW but the player base has a lot more to do with it then they accept. The main groups left on BG leaving to other servers is the best chance for the pug population to spread out and bring some of that dedication to other servers. > > Like I said, BG isn't THE problem but you're lieing to yourself if you don't think its "part of the problem" Correction. Mal's KN was successful not because of a single server stack but server link stack as well, likewise anet even gave them the same link for 2 relink straight iirc. However, KN start to decline rapidly the moment that link differ. They decline right after 6 months iirc. BG didn't just has long history of organization. BG was formed during early gw2 period where the undisputed HOD alliance disbanded because of the problems of WvW that time which is transfer isn't locked for awhile which made a lot of people bandwagon to hod, choking up the queue. BG formed after that, declaring itself as the one server for WvW and with such ease of transfer in early gw2, it is very very easy to stack it up. Furthermore, plenty of people also transfer to BG for pve activity, back then megaserver does not exist, bg also became the place to go for pve as well. Anet, in the view for pve, also raised the server cap a few times. That is to say, BG has way way higher base population than all other servers. It is not something players can hope to beat, no matter how "organized" you are under the current "fair" system which implemented way way too late. BG need to self implode, just like JQ. Gw2 since long ago need a blow up to even up all these uneven population made possible during early gw2. However, players are selfish to begin with, they don't support the blow up and years later, they now do, is funny how times change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"Acheron.4731" said: > I know I will get a lot of flak for this but the loss of server pride certainly didn't help any. > That, along with unregulated server hopping after re-links gave no one reason to care or even play. You already know if you are gonna win all the fights or lose before the match really begins. > Did anyone mention the stale meta yet? > It is hard to really even log in nowadays. The long loading screen alone causes me to lose interest pretty fast :) > > > you're not wrong. one up one down and the previous system was gamed by us players. so, it's really the community's fault after anet's removed tournament, which is our fault in a way because we also gamed that through having server alliances where A and B focused solely on C so they can take turns being no.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oogabooga.3812 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Dinas Dragonbane.2978" said: > > > @"Arctisavange.7261" said: > > > Been playing and commanding since launch of the game. Do you think anyone in their right mind give any kitten about PPT and overall, flipping towers/keeps? > > > > > > WvW is massive PVP aka large scale player vs player. People who care about the game mode are here to fight enemies, not slap gates all day long and call it a GG if they climb a tier. > > So then.... was the game more popular when the majority of the wvw community's focus was on ppt, or nowadays when people say it's all about fights? > > > > it was more popular when it mattered - by having tournaments. Tournaments will never be held again because of match manipulation, burnout from overplay, and poor rewards. Even now, the lack of reward makes the game mode stale. I understand why they won't make great rewards, but they ought to, since PvE and PVP offer much greater incentives to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"Oogabooga.3812" said: > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Dinas Dragonbane.2978" said: > > > > @"Arctisavange.7261" said: > > > > Been playing and commanding since launch of the game. Do you think anyone in their right mind give any kitten about PPT and overall, flipping towers/keeps? > > > > > > > > WvW is massive PVP aka large scale player vs player. People who care about the game mode are here to fight enemies, not slap gates all day long and call it a GG if they climb a tier. > > > So then.... was the game more popular when the majority of the wvw community's focus was on ppt, or nowadays when people say it's all about fights? > > > > > > > it was more popular when it mattered - by having tournaments. > > Tournaments will never be held again because of match manipulation, burnout from overplay, and poor rewards. > > Even now, the lack of reward makes the game mode stale. I understand why they won't make great rewards, but they ought to, since PvE and PVP offer much greater incentives to play. and that's why wvw isn't as popular as it was. the one thing that made it great was removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > BG formed after that, declaring itself as the one server for WvW and with such ease of transfer in early gw2, it is very very easy to stack it up. Furthermore, plenty of people also transfer to BG for pve activity, back then megaserver does not exist, bg also became the place to go for pve as well. Lol, yea... I remember the big rush to transfer to BG before Anet implemented a cost for transfers. BG was in T3 at the time and people wanted to stack it as the new place to go for WvW after HoD. There was zero ways for a server to get a different match up back then without either losing or gaining players and coverage. Then after that, of course, the old auto-clicker program people used to game the population system to transfer overnight during times of low online population to get onto a "Full" server made those old T1 servers far more massive than they should ever have been. When the population shrinks and you're more used to playing when the server was overstacked, of course it is going to seem like freefall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biermeister.4678 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 What killed WvW Outdated game engine that lags near a blob META builds that only support the Blob Removal of tactics to support the Blob PIP system scouts have to leave objective to get Pips Dev's rarley seen on WvW maps unlike before Taking L A away from server's and making it a Mega Server (Mega Server fine for open world content and living story) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elf Lord.8962 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > snips > > what you're describing is your opinion. you don't think its fun anymore, nor do a lot of your friends. plenty still do tho, and its those people who I am referring to. or are you saying that most of the pugs that refuse to comp up are doing so cuz they're bored? good luck proving that. Equally good luck disproving it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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