Syrus.2174 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 You always hear how essential Firebrands are to a zerg and playing on a Tier 1 EU server we often face stronger enemies with better organization and/or better class composition in their zergs. It made me quite interested in the question, what if an organized zerg attempted to take a defended T3 keep, preferably an EB keep or the enemy's home garrision (not on RBL), without Firebrands? Would it be possible against an unorganized group of equal or near equal strength or are zergs really that depended on one class? I would love to see someone do this, to be honest. One zerg, at least 30 people, no Firebrands, take a defended T3 keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L A T I O N.8923 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 I believe that theoretically you could skip firebrands by pumping in more regular scrapper healers and shoutheal spellbreakers. You loose what firebrands offer yes, but you get alot more stealth, reflects and some stab, both of these offer tons of cleanse and frequent healing, plus more barrier/resistance/vigor and boon strip bubbles. I definetly believe that a good commander can still make use of this and not really "need" those firebrands. We are unlikely to ever see a practical "test" and even if we do... situations always vary. Not to mention, you learn how to counter things. Any class can be effiecent at least once. Usually trying to force certain classes result in just bad players on them which die anyway. I mean its the same for firebrands - some die instantly, some can tank anything. You definetly do not want to ask me to come on a firebrand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deniara Devious.3948 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 **In practice NO.** **Defenders have an advantage.** Firebrands just offer too much for large groups to be completely left out. For example I leading defense of home bl T3 bay yesterday evening (EU tier 1). As a ranged commander and lacking a melee ball, I had to use different tactics. Enemy had a 30-50 player zerg, but it was quite easily snipe their rear (basically those who don't stay in the ball, usually soft targets like necros or eles). Once enemy loses enough players, they disengage, to avoid complete wipe. The T3 keep inner was never even close being breached and I would have of course used emergency waypoint before that to call in help. Firebrands offer a lot of reflects. I can imagine that backline sniping would be even easier without the enemy zerg having any firebrands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Imo anything works as long until proven it does not. Since no one right now is thinking of doing it, or has done it before, I'll say it works, but only in theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God.2708 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 It's not really possible to take a t3 objective against a same sized group regardless of either groups composition. Unless the group with the T3 keep are literally uplevels who don't know how to play the game. In terms of FB necessity to a group, at this juncture the things that make them 'necessary' isn't really true anymore. You could get the needed stab uptime from a DH + revenant. It's just not worth it to try to change a bunch of builds to get the same end effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.6852 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Lets wait for weekend evens after the balance patch :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlySynz.3471 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 > @"L A T I O N.8923" said: > This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink. What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrus.2174 Posted January 12, 2020 Author Share Posted January 12, 2020 > @"God.2708" said: > It's not really possible to take a t3 objective against a same sized group regardless of either groups composition. Unless the group with the T3 keep are literally uplevels who don't know how to play the game. I've seen this happen quite a lot with organized zergs vs unorganized randoms defending a T3 keep. If the defender's numbers are at most equal, but probably less, and the enemy has a disciplined organized zerg, they can easily end up farming the defender in the keep or take it. Even if the defender starts out with more people, after killing them a few times many usually abbandon the defense. I'm just really curious if Firebrands really are that essential to a working, powerful zerg and if there isn't an alternative way to build a zerg to do well. Because ... if that isn't possible, wouldn't it mean they are probably too powerful in that role? I'm neither in a WvW guild, nor a commander myself, so I hoped for someone with the ability to show - look, we can make this work even without Firebrands and crush the enemy just as before - or demonstrate that not having this class around will put you at a severe disadvantage. Just to change the game up a bit. As a side not, on the defending side I, again and again lately, have come to realize that if you don't bring boon removal / corrupt, even with great numbers you will just not have a chance at defeating an organized zerg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisenHowl.2419 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish.2769 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > @"L A T I O N.8923" said: > > This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges > > This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink. > > What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes. And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg. > @"Fish.2769" said: > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > @"L A T I O N.8923" said: > > > This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges > > > > This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink. > > > > What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes. > > And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 You want a CC meta? Because thats how get people to stack CC . Without any good stab scource and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"L A T I O N.8923" said: > This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges No firebrands, scourges nor scrappers. Gw2 has to many noobs being carried, they can’t play w/o gimmick performance gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisenHowl.2419 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone > > You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg. > > > > @"Fish.2769" said: > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > @"L A T I O N.8923" said: > > > > This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges > > > > > > This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink. > > > > > > What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes. > > > > And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D > > Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week. > > Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Why not just 2 shout guards per party? Worked fine for the first 5 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > Why not just 2 shout guards per party? > Worked fine for the first 5 years I greatly prefer core or even DH over FB. All that fluff and fuss.....for what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 go for broke and do a no guard party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyHawk.5319 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 No problem with no FBs. There are other support classes that provide enough of other buffs/heals sans aegis and constant stab. Ok, fine. No one will have that. People put way too much focus on the firebrand. While you are doing that, the scrappers and tempests are out cleansing, providing constant heals, giving protection, cc'ing, regen, group stun breaks. The support warrior, omg, is out cleansing your average tempest and, in some cases, the best tempests, while providing healing, vigor, might, fury. So go ahead, focus only on the firebrands. If a player's goal is to play WvW, a group-centric competitive game mode, and always kill without any resistance from your foe, you are playing the wrong game mode. Perhaps Anet needs to provide a map where all boons, buffs, etc are removed, no one can buff/heal/cleanse anyone else, no food buffs can be applied, no gear, just you vs the other player au naturel and leave WvW to the group players, where masses work in concert to overcome their challengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikharzeeh.8016 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 regular guardians could also be player very defensively... if for some reason we had no firebrand, the zergs would simply adapt. we might need more healers numberwise but w/e... too hypothetical, they won't eliminate a full specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots.2849 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I still miss the days of 4 necros and 1 venom share thief party. They were the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > > I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone > > > > You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg. > > > > > > > @"Fish.2769" said: > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > > @"L A T I O N.8923" said: > > > > > This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges > > > > > > > > This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink. > > > > > > > > What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes. > > > > > > And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D > > > > Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week. > > > > > > Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it The other zerg has firebrands... It was asked for a zerg setup that could beat a meta setup. That might work 1 or 2 times, but as soon as they get wary it wont work anymore, they would kite you to death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisenHowl.2419 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > > > I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone > > > > > > You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > @"Fish.2769" said: > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > > > @"L A T I O N.8923" said: > > > > > > This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges > > > > > > > > > > This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink. > > > > > > > > > > What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes. > > > > > > > > And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D > > > > > > Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week. > > > > > > > > > > Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it > > The other zerg has firebrands... It was asked for a zerg setup that could beat a meta setup. > > That might work 1 or 2 times, but as soon as they get wary it wont work anymore, they would kite you to death Scrappers keep up superspeed and spb has some of the best resistance access in the game. Gl kiting if they get on top of you, and there's no reason for them to engage at all if they can't get into melee Edit: my bad, forgot this thread was about taking a t3 without fbs. In that case just stack revs, weavers, and dh with scrapper and tempest heals. Inside a structure it's easy to nuke with dh and weaver since movement is restricted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrus.2174 Posted January 18, 2020 Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 I like the responses so far, gives some things to think about regarding FBs in WvW. I picked a fight over a T3 Keep for the simple reason of that being the hardest objective to take, and where it matters less how good the defender is, and more how well the attackers zerg is composed. An unorganized group would usually stand no chance in open field due to the lack of coordination alone, in a keep though, it's more about how well the attacker can sustain. At least from my observations. It's a bit sad, but absolutely not unexpected to not see anyone try this, would've been fun if some top tier guild of WvW could disprove that a zerg without FBs probably won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caysadia.7405 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I have to say i do NOT agree with this. No firebrands means no shattered aegis, and one cannot have a functioning zerg without shattered aegis. Therefore i will have to DISAGREE with your proposal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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