Zenix.6198 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Personally I think that ressing and rallying adds more depth to combat. It's an added level of complexity that challenges the players decision-making. As an example: In a 2v2, 1 player of each party goes down: Is it better to rezz or try to go for the stomp? Can you interrupt an opposing stomp/rezz? How healthy is the remaining player of the other team? Go for the down on the remaining player and rezz afterwards? ...etc.etc. Additional complexity and decision making isn't a bad thing. The only gripe I could possibly have with the system right now, is the implementation of instant rezz mechanics....and thats mostly only because it strips away the aforementioned added depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > What do you guys think about this? > > The res mechanic already heavily favors the side with more numbers. From my perspective, downstate and rallying are exactly the same. There have been plenty of winnable fights (both outnumbered and even) if the downed enemies my team or I get weren't constantly getting rallied. > > It also heavily enforces the notion in ranked that the side with the worst PUGs lose. If your teammates feed in every fight, there's simply nothing/very little you can do to take back control of the map if they die too quickly to regain any footing. > > Now, if it's possible for Anet to test a sPvP season with no downstate (as long as they remove berserker/assassin amulet and tune down stacking damage modifiers that make oneshot builds possible PRIOR to starting the season), this is something I'd be willing and interested to play in. Then, scenarios such as 2v2s where I down an enemy and they down my teammate become winnable even _after_ another enemy rotates in to rez/stomp. > > Furthermore, I think it might be worth preventing teammates from rezzing until combat ends as well. These changes would make fights more about who is more skilled as opposed to who has the numbers advantage. > > Anyways, that's just something I was thinking about from the no downstate WvW. A lot of people loved it, I have a feeling the same would apply for sPvP. Also, I feel like the combat would be a lot cleaner and easier to watch since people aren't constantly going up and down. This game has abysmally low ttk potential and a whole lot of issues that need to be addressed first. Not to mention that these downed and rally mechanics have been in since launch and some design decisions were built with those factors in mind. And do experienced players need to farm newbies even harder and make the quit sooner? Seems like a bad way to encourage increased participation... I'm sure a lot of people hated the removal in wvw, and I can guarantee that wvw would have less population during a no downstate week if it wasn't tied to boosted xp and rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > What do you guys think about this? > > > > The res mechanic already heavily favors the side with more numbers. From my perspective, downstate and rallying are exactly the same. There have been plenty of winnable fights (both outnumbered and even) if the downed enemies my team or I get weren't constantly getting rallied. > > > > It also heavily enforces the notion in ranked that the side with the worst PUGs lose. If your teammates feed in every fight, there's simply nothing/very little you can do to take back control of the map if they die too quickly to regain any footing. > > > > Now, if it's possible for Anet to test a sPvP season with no downstate (as long as they remove berserker/assassin amulet and tune down stacking damage modifiers that make oneshot builds possible PRIOR to starting the season), this is something I'd be willing and interested to play in. Then, scenarios such as 2v2s where I down an enemy and they down my teammate become winnable even _after_ another enemy rotates in to rez/stomp. > > > > Furthermore, I think it might be worth preventing teammates from rezzing until combat ends as well. These changes would make fights more about who is more skilled as opposed to who has the numbers advantage. > > > > Anyways, that's just something I was thinking about from the no downstate WvW. A lot of people loved it, I have a feeling the same would apply for sPvP. Also, I feel like the combat would be a lot cleaner and easier to watch since people aren't constantly going up and down. > > This game has abysmally low ttk potential and a whole lot of issues that need to be addressed first. Not to mention that these downed and rally mechanics have been in since launch and some design decisions were built with those factors in mind. And do experienced players need to farm newbies even harder and make the quit sooner? Seems like a bad way to encourage increased participation... > > I'm sure a lot of people hated the removal in wvw, and I can guarantee that wvw would have less population during a no downstate week if it wasn't tied to boosted xp and rewards. > > Remove downstate and warclaw from wvw and its population would double in a year with actually wvw main players and not pve sight see'ers and mount hunters lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > What do you guys think about this? > > > > > > The res mechanic already heavily favors the side with more numbers. From my perspective, downstate and rallying are exactly the same. There have been plenty of winnable fights (both outnumbered and even) if the downed enemies my team or I get weren't constantly getting rallied. > > > > > > It also heavily enforces the notion in ranked that the side with the worst PUGs lose. If your teammates feed in every fight, there's simply nothing/very little you can do to take back control of the map if they die too quickly to regain any footing. > > > > > > Now, if it's possible for Anet to test a sPvP season with no downstate (as long as they remove berserker/assassin amulet and tune down stacking damage modifiers that make oneshot builds possible PRIOR to starting the season), this is something I'd be willing and interested to play in. Then, scenarios such as 2v2s where I down an enemy and they down my teammate become winnable even _after_ another enemy rotates in to rez/stomp. > > > > > > Furthermore, I think it might be worth preventing teammates from rezzing until combat ends as well. These changes would make fights more about who is more skilled as opposed to who has the numbers advantage. > > > > > > Anyways, that's just something I was thinking about from the no downstate WvW. A lot of people loved it, I have a feeling the same would apply for sPvP. Also, I feel like the combat would be a lot cleaner and easier to watch since people aren't constantly going up and down. > > > > This game has abysmally low ttk potential and a whole lot of issues that need to be addressed first. Not to mention that these downed and rally mechanics have been in since launch and some design decisions were built with those factors in mind. And do experienced players need to farm newbies even harder and make the quit sooner? Seems like a bad way to encourage increased participation... > > > > I'm sure a lot of people hated the removal in wvw, and I can guarantee that wvw would have less population during a no downstate week if it wasn't tied to boosted xp and rewards. > > > > > > Remove downstate and warclaw from wvw and its population would double in a year with actually wvw main players and not pve sight see'ers and mount hunters lol That’s kinda backwards thinking. Modes in the game are dependent on players participating, and alienating players doesn’t achieve this goal. GW2 also has lower quality support roles combined with low TTK designs, so you take out downed mechanics and it makes gameplay worse. Much like the dev team not wanting to touch passives since there are too many damaging AoEs being flung around in wvw. Also, this game isn’t duel wars, it is a team based combat game, so designs should favor team play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 As long as they rename the mandatory Function Gyro to Function-less Gyro for the season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I just want the enemy team to crease gaining multiple rallies off one death, then we can see what happens next. On one hand, I enjoy the gameplay around the mechanic - cleave vs stomp, clutch rez/stomp plays, and so on. On the other hand, I hate how basically the entire enemy team can rez just cuz one of yours died, and how it warps combat around players who turn into rallybots - they just run in and die, and even if you were winning the teamfight and hate enemy downs, noooope that's gone. However, I think the downsides are more that the mechanic needs adjusting - not total removal. It's arguable that rally shouldn't exist at all, but downstate is fine. I'd rather explore those options over just removing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > What do you guys think about this? > > The res mechanic already heavily favors the side with more numbers. From my perspective, downstate and rallying are exactly the same. There have been plenty of winnable fights (both outnumbered and even) if the downed enemies my team or I get weren't constantly getting rallied. > > It also heavily enforces the notion in ranked that the side with the worst PUGs lose. If your teammates feed in every fight, there's simply nothing/very little you can do to take back control of the map if they die too quickly to regain any footing. > > Now, if it's possible for Anet to test a sPvP season with no downstate (as long as they remove berserker/assassin amulet and tune down stacking damage modifiers that make oneshot builds possible PRIOR to starting the season), this is something I'd be willing and interested to play in. Then, scenarios such as 2v2s where I down an enemy and they down my teammate become winnable even _after_ another enemy rotates in to rez/stomp. > > Furthermore, I think it might be worth preventing teammates from rezzing until combat ends as well. These changes would make fights more about who is more skilled as opposed to who has the numbers advantage. > > Anyways, that's just something I was thinking about from the no downstate WvW. A lot of people loved it, I have a feeling the same would apply for sPvP. Also, I feel like the combat would be a lot cleaner and easier to watch since people aren't constantly going up and down. Not agreeing or disagreeing. I played the WvW tests of this quite a bit, and I can say that although I actually REALLY liked it in WvW, I'm not so sure what would happen here in SPvP. The problem with it is that so many classes are designed around team fight revive play, as well as the idea of safe stomps. So when those mechanics are removed from the game essentially, the classes designed around them lose a significant portion of what helps weight their build against the meta in terms of balance & use. Then on the other hand, things like Power Shatter Mesmer, Deadeyes, DPS Soulbeast, just win. You know, the classes that are normally described as "selfish survival" are the classes that end up being top dogs. If they were to try this idea, they'd need a beta patch to go with it, to bolster those slower classes who have 25% of their traits designed around downstate play. And boy oh boy let me tell ya, if you think you've seen salt in spvp, you have no idea where the true salt mine is. I've never seen such salt pour from the sky than during wvw no-downstate weekends, when as a good DPS Soulbeast, you can seriously kill mobs of 5-10 players by yourself with wise kiting. People get raged in this game when numbers does not ensure security. They really do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darwinslittlehelper.7182 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Why do people keep conflating downstate and rallying? Downstate in its current form favours cheese tactics, but a balance pass and an additional hard look at the traits and skills surrounding downstate could end up keeping its benefits while reducing the negative aspects. However, rallying- instantly popping back up at someone’s death-is ridiculous. It does not belong in any competitive mode-should only exist in pve. If you go into downstate, either work to get yourself bandaged, have a teammate bandage you, or be defeated. Dantheman.3589 summed it up pretty well. It feels skill-less. I would also add random and far too forgiving in some situations. Remove it from pvp and wvw. Many the downstate complaints will disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultramex.1506 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I have a great PvP moment long time ago: I was a Mesmer and fought against 2 players: a Guardian & a Elementalist (since i have AIs back me up i guess it was a fair fight?), three of us were downed , i used skill 2 which thankfully teleport me far away enough to hit one and avoid the other, the Elementalist used skill 2 to get close to me but eventually died to my Phantasmal Rogue and you can guess what happened after. So yes! Downed is necessary because it creates intense moment like above, wish they would fix BS one-shot builds that are meta in gw2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Downstate is a pve mechanic imo, and it has a place in WvW, because there are significant pve elements there. I don't think Downstate has any place in player vs player combat at all. Infact, removal of Downstate in Pvp is actually good, because it's just a horrible tactic to squeeze out a few more seconds on yur respawn timer when an enemy intentionally refuses to finish and lets the bleedout happen, preventing yu from aiding yur team in any fashion while bleeding out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crepuscular.9047 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 down state or having someone ressing a down state isn't a problem, the problem is rally, which should be removed from the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlie.7641 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I would put the rally mechanic on a global ammo system, each team has X amount of rallies, when there used up, you get a rally charge every X mins. Limit the amount of revivers to 1 player per downed. Rework "signet" based revive utilities. an example of how they should function is: Targeting ally: Instantly revive a downed player. No Target / enemy target : Apply offensive or defensive mechanic. (boons, damage, evades ect). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I do not have issues with downed state or rezzing. These are integral parts of GW2 and the game overall balance is ingrained to them. I would argue that successfully rezzing a downed ally, under focus fire, is one of the most fun things in sPvP and GW2 overall. I think rallying should be completely removed in sPvP. It is a crutch open world PvE mechanic and should have never came to PvP in any shape or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluri.2653 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 The only thing they should do is to limit the rallying to 1-1 as they have in wvw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saharo Gravewind.5120 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Agree that clutch rezzing is one of the most fun things in sPVP, especially when you're coordinating with the downed player. Denying a kill is more satisfying than getting the kill imo. Pretty much the only thing keeping me playing Scrapper & FB. Rezzing favors neither side -- side with fewer players can stick around an be a nuisance for longer, but if the side with more players keeps rezzing then you can't make a dent in them. I'd argue that rallying feels like it helps the side with fewer players more, but technically it's probably also neutral. If you're 3v4ing and get a kill which rallies your 2 comrades that's a real lifesaver and you feel like you toughed it out. If you're 4v3ing and you have to rally 2 comrades off a kill you'd feel like you threw your advantage and got lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthan.5236 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I think it is an interesting part of the game mechanics - even in PvP (or especially there). Also there are no dedicated healer classes that could revive. I understand the problems with the rallying though. (Maybe that mechanics could be removed for PvP.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar.3568 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > Just think about it as a solo player. > > Let's say you're in a 1v4 and you down 3 people. Your teammate rotates in to help but can't cleave any of the 3 people out in time. You die, the 3 enemies all rally, your teammate instantly dies, and the advantage you were attempting to create through your skill has been completely wiped clean and has no impact on the rest of the match. > > That sucks. Like I said above, the time difference would compound the more you pull off plays like this. My changes would make it much easier for a single player to impact the outcome of a match. This is something that's always been an issue with Conquest. Who is going in a 1v4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > Just think about it as a solo player. > > > > Let's say you're in a 1v4 and you down 3 people. Your teammate rotates in to help but can't cleave any of the 3 people out in time. You die, the 3 enemies all rally, your teammate instantly dies, and the advantage you were attempting to create through your skill has been completely wiped clean and has no impact on the rest of the match. > > > > That sucks. Like I said above, the time difference would compound the more you pull off plays like this. My changes would make it much easier for a single player to impact the outcome of a match. This is something that's always been an issue with Conquest. > > Who is going in a 1v4? Also what i was thinking if you are in a 1v4 with at least anyone who is not new to the game and commonly plays pvp and you down 3 of those people i would say what ever build you are using needs to be looked at. Especially if you think you are suppose to commonly win that kind of situation. Maybe the issue is not with the supports doing their job maybe its with the build you are playing thinking it should just have the power to down 3 people and if you can commonly down 3 people in a 1v4 but not finish them off i would say that build needs to be looked into not the supports. if you have the power to down 3 people in a 1v4 commonly there is no real reason why you cant kill support build's by focusing on them. perhaps a certain player shouldnt run in to a 1v4 then be upset when they die and those 4 players rally when it was not exactly smart to run into a 1v4 anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 why does everyone say that downstate favors the side with more numbers? what about the outnumbered people that win? its not as common anymore but it still happens. its rally that's broken, from the beginning. downstate favors those who **res**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 This would make it easier for a single player to "carry" a match which I don't think would be fair exactly and demote more team play mechanics. The mode needs to be driven **more** towards team play and less away from it. The more it starts gearing towards the solo player, why even have a team mode at all? That's not to say I'm against a solo mode. That's just not what conquest is. I don't think of downstate as any different than them being up. I keep engaging them in the same way until they are full down. The only thing I have a problem with is their teammate who are not a heal/support spec being able to rez through my damage. Someone who is not traited for healing and rezing should really do very minimal rez heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthan.5236 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Yeah. Needs to focus more on teamplay. The "carry" thing should not be encouraged or made easier. Though for deathmatches (which afaik are only possible in custom arenas) not having a downed/rally could make more sense than in a conquest game mode. Imo (but I'm a noob only) ressing also is not used that much. In a big zergy fight (3 vs 4 or something like that) the people often focus on the rezzer (that can't use defensive skills while rezzing) and just a quick invulnerability skill (engineer has elixir for example) fo stomp or normally dps-ing down a downed enemy to death ... that happens most of the time. Then rallying of a team mate. Rez only in a situation where it is safe (enemy retreated or a 2nd team mate can fight with the enemy and prevent him from attacking the rezzer). Maybe the maps could get made a bit bigger ... and cooldown a bit higher on respawn (respawn timer) after death - could make it more interesting. (Of course heavily outnumbered and quickly killed players ... and their team - could even be more at a disadvandage. On the other hand on bigger maps with bases on the opposite sides less noobs might run to far capture point and the people gotten killed are respawning and more likely that at least that point - near/close point from the point of view of the team that lost the first clash with lots of players killed fast - can still be held.) Maybe different respawn timers depending on killed normally vs stomped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"bluri.2653" said: > The only thing they should do is to limit the rallying to 1-1 as they have in wvw Good idea. My idea would be to remove rallying from kills entirely as a test trial. It would put emphasis on res-support over overwhelming damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Maybe anet could take a look at **where** rez traits are, too. IIRC, they're most often in the first line of choices, so they're pretty easily accessible and don't have much opportunity cost. Blood Magic ritual of life, for example, competes with a dagger trait nobody really uses and a very small heal you're unlikely to ever get full value off of. They could easily fold it into the Wells GM trait or somesuch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fueki.4753 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 There is a top stat for most revives, so you could use it to complete the daily top stat acchievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 It would be interesting to see a No Downstate season. I will say that having participated in the WvW No Down State week a little bit and done a lot of 1v1s and 1vX during that time, holy moly does GW2's combat feel significantly more snappy and fun without downstate. It almost feels like cheating, seeing people die when they are killed. And to see your capacity to completely win outnumbered fights outright skyrocket is really powerful feeling. I do think there is some reason to have a resurrection mechanic of some sort. I like the idea of Signet of Mercy and Undeath, and Glyph of Renewal and Illusion of Life. Paladins, druids being able to resurrect their allies from the dead is a huge part of those professions flavors and part of fantasy RPGs. I think GW2 might have been better served long run if, instead of downstate players died when they killed. And teammates have a 10 second window to use a Resurrect skill on their body before their body rots into a skeleton and they can't be resurrected at all and have to wait on the manual respawn timer. To me it makes certain professions and skills feel really special and everyone being able to revive everyone has never felt "right" to me. On the other end of the spectrum the most exciting fights I've ever had involve extremely down to the wire Downstate Races. These are really rare though. I do also really relish the opportunity to rot a player for as long as possible off node as I've secured a kill. This is fairly common. It's no joke one of my favorite things to do, especially if they make the mistake of trying to bandage and I can let them get up to 99% and then tap them and force them to bleed out that much longer. I like I think the initial developers wanted you to feel really badass when you use a Finisher. Like "Yeah that's my finishing move and you have to watch get schrecked" but rotting a helpless opponent is immensely more satisfying. Overall I'm kind of neutral towards it all things considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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