Thief Initiative Regen Post-Patch

[shadowpass.4236]

I think builds like s/d thief are going to be EXTREMELY strong post-patch.

Skill cooldowns are increasing but their initiative regen stays the same. So they can spam their evade skills to avoid the longer cd attacks but still have more defensives than anyone else.

I doubt anyone will have the damage to kill or catch them once these changes go through.

 

1. Rev is different cause their skills have cooldowns along with energy costs but yeah... thief is going to be hyper busted imo.

2. Teleports in general are going to become OP too because no one will have the damage to prevent people from escaping behind LoS at 1200 range... or catch them because mobility skills are getting nerfed too with longer cds.

3. Stealth is also going to be insanely powerful as anything around 3 seconds or longer basically gets a full reset because damage is so low. Like bound thief with black powder will probably be invincible, same with PU mes, traited Toss Elixir S, and smokescale rangers. Shadow Arts thief is going to be ridiculous.

4. Any class/build that required mobility or burst to catch and kill got massive buffs.

 

**I suggest increasing the initiative recharge rate from 1 per tick to 1.3s and leave the current initiative costs the way they are.

In other words... If 15 initiative takes 15 seconds to fully regenerate at the current rate of 1 seconds per tick - the same 15 initiative would take 19.5 seconds at a rate of 1.3 seconds per tick. That's more in-line with what most other classes are getting.**

[Dantheman.3589]

I wouldn’t mind a bound meta for thief, SA a huge maybe- if it’s SA on a bound build it might be fun but not so much on anything else

[Curennos.9307]

- Shortbow evade ini cost increased

- Pistol Whip ini cost increased (or was this a bug fix? Tbh I'm not entirely sure)

- DP#3 (gap close, dmg, blind) ini cost increased

- Withdraw CD increased

- Roll for Ini +10 sec to the CD (40->50)

- DrD block +10 sec to CD (20->30)

 

Honorable mention for dp autos getting another nerf.

 

Flanking strike does even more negligible damage now. It also has the built in vulnerability of the flip skill.

 

Dagger storm saw a 60% reduction in pwr coefficient.

 

You're right that thief ini regen has stayed the same, but a decent chunk of evade/mitigation skills got hit.

 

I do think anet still needs to do some nerfs tho - to sword2 in particular. Why they just nerfed Shadow's Rejuvenation instead of changing the trait's functionality, idk - it rewards stacking stealth, which is dumb, and needs to change - not just be nerfed.

 

I'm less worried about thief and more worried about rez builds now, what with damage getting nuked and all.

[mes.4607]

Anything too bunker is going to do too well with the lack of damage this next meta is going to break

[mortrialus.3062]

I think it's safe to say thief and Daredevil are two of the strongest builds right now and the only builds I've ever heard of to dethrone having a FB support in MATs.

 

While pistol whip is seeing nerfs and even an initiative increase, the significantly stronger Shadow Arts DP isn't see any changes to the new life steal trait that super charged the traditionally purely defensive trait line into something very potent both defensive and offensive, not assassination signet. Just the same 20-30% coefficient nerf everything else is getting. Which has me pretty worried about thief becoming even more dominant after the patch.

 

Anyway on topic you don't need to rebuild the initiative from the ground up. If something is over performing while spammed on thief you can always adjust the initiative cost up a bit to achieve similar results to standard cooldown increases.

 

In fact in many ways tinkering with initiative can alter the way thief loadouts feel more dramatically than adding +5seconds to any other classes weapon skill.

 

Also really wanted to see something done about Sword 2. Like, most people understand thief will be built with a lot of inherent hit and run, but at 3 initiative in 2 out to clear effectively 1800 units of distance, attempt to immobilize the target, get to safety while cleaning has always been a ridiculous level of value and functionally infinite capacity to hit and run. That's a lot of things happening on what is effectively a 5 second cooldown.

[Vancho.8750]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I think it's safe to say thief and Daredevil are two of the strongest builds right now and the only builds I've ever heard of to dethrone having a FB support in MATs.

>

> While pistol whip is seeing nerfs and even an initiative increase, the significantly stronger Shadow Arts DP isn't see any changes to the new life steal trait that super charged the traditionally purely defensive trait line into something very potent both defensive and offensive, not assassination signet. Just the same 20-30% coefficient nerf everything else is getting. Which has me pretty worried about thief becoming even more dominant after the patch.

>

> Anyway on topic you don't need to rebuild the initiative from the ground up. If something is over performing while spammed on thief you can always adjust the initiative cost up a bit to achieve similar results to standard cooldown increases.

>

> In fact in many ways tinkering with initiative can alter the way thief loadouts feel more dramatically than adding +5seconds to any other classes weapon skill.

>

> Also really wanted to see something done about Sword 2. Like, most people understand thief will be built with a lot of inherent hit and run, but at 3 initiative in 2 out to clear effectively 1800 units of distance, attempt to immobilize the target, get to safety while cleaning has always been a ridiculous level of value and functionally infinite capacity to hit and run. That's a lot of things happening on what is effectively a 5 second cooldown.

I still think they believe that conditions are not cc while being the strongest form of cc even better than the hard cc like stuns and knock backs since they stack in duration when reapplied while hard cc just exchanges the duration of the previous cc. Hope the next patch is not a condi slog or bunker meta.

 

[Tharan.9085]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I think it's safe to say thief and Daredevil are two of the strongest builds right now and the only builds I've ever heard of to dethrone having a FB support in MATs.

> >

> > While pistol whip is seeing nerfs and even an initiative increase, the significantly stronger Shadow Arts DP isn't see any changes to the new life steal trait that super charged the traditionally purely defensive trait line into something very potent both defensive and offensive, not assassination signet. Just the same 20-30% coefficient nerf everything else is getting. Which has me pretty worried about thief becoming even more dominant after the patch.

> >

> > Anyway on topic you don't need to rebuild the initiative from the ground up. If something is over performing while spammed on thief you can always adjust the initiative cost up a bit to achieve similar results to standard cooldown increases.

> >

> > In fact in many ways tinkering with initiative can alter the way thief loadouts feel more dramatically than adding +5seconds to any other classes weapon skill.

> >

> > Also really wanted to see something done about Sword 2. Like, most people understand thief will be built with a lot of inherent hit and run, but at 3 initiative in 2 out to clear effectively 1800 units of distance, attempt to immobilize the target, get to safety while cleaning has always been a ridiculous level of value and functionally infinite capacity to hit and run. That's a lot of things happening on what is effectively a 5 second cooldown.

> I still think they believe that conditions are not cc while being the strongest form of cc even better than the hard cc like stuns and knock backs since they stack in duration when reapplied while hard cc just exchanges the duration of the previous cc. Hope the next patch is not a condi slog or bunker meta.

>

You do realize this?:

The following amulets have been removed from the PvP Build panel

Deadshot Amulet

Viper Amulet

Wanderer Amulet

Diviner Amulet

Harrier Amulet

Seeker Amulet

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Tharan.9085" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > I think it's safe to say thief and Daredevil are two of the strongest builds right now and the only builds I've ever heard of to dethrone having a FB support in MATs.

> > >

> > > While pistol whip is seeing nerfs and even an initiative increase, the significantly stronger Shadow Arts DP isn't see any changes to the new life steal trait that super charged the traditionally purely defensive trait line into something very potent both defensive and offensive, not assassination signet. Just the same 20-30% coefficient nerf everything else is getting. Which has me pretty worried about thief becoming even more dominant after the patch.

> > >

> > > Anyway on topic you don't need to rebuild the initiative from the ground up. If something is over performing while spammed on thief you can always adjust the initiative cost up a bit to achieve similar results to standard cooldown increases.

> > >

> > > In fact in many ways tinkering with initiative can alter the way thief loadouts feel more dramatically than adding +5seconds to any other classes weapon skill.

> > >

> > > Also really wanted to see something done about Sword 2. Like, most people understand thief will be built with a lot of inherent hit and run, but at 3 initiative in 2 out to clear effectively 1800 units of distance, attempt to immobilize the target, get to safety while cleaning has always been a ridiculous level of value and functionally infinite capacity to hit and run. That's a lot of things happening on what is effectively a 5 second cooldown.

> > I still think they believe that conditions are not cc while being the strongest form of cc even better than the hard cc like stuns and knock backs since they stack in duration when reapplied while hard cc just exchanges the duration of the previous cc. Hope the next patch is not a condi slog or bunker meta.

> >

> You do realize this?:

> The following amulets have been removed from the PvP Build panel

> Deadshot Amulet

> Viper Amulet

> Wanderer Amulet

> Diviner Amulet

> Harrier Amulet

> Seeker Amulet

Well you do have Carrion, Grieving , Sinister , Wizard, Rampager and Sage Amulets to use.

 

[bluri.2653]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I think it's safe to say thief and Daredevil are two of the strongest builds right now and the only builds I've ever heard of to dethrone having a FB support in MATs.

>

> While pistol whip is seeing nerfs and even an initiative increase, the significantly stronger Shadow Arts DP isn't see any changes to the new life steal trait that super charged the traditionally purely defensive trait line into something very potent both defensive and offensive, not assassination signet. Just the same 20-30% coefficient nerf everything else is getting. Which has me pretty worried about thief becoming even more dominant after the patch.

>

> Anyway on topic you don't need to rebuild the initiative from the ground up. If something is over performing while spammed on thief you can always adjust the initiative cost up a bit to achieve similar results to standard cooldown increases.

>

> In fact in many ways tinkering with initiative can alter the way thief loadouts feel more dramatically than adding +5seconds to any other classes weapon skill.

>

> Also really wanted to see something done about Sword 2. Like, most people understand thief will be built with a lot of inherent hit and run, but at 3 initiative in 2 out to clear effectively 1800 units of distance, attempt to immobilize the target, get to safety while cleaning has always been a ridiculous level of value and functionally infinite capacity to hit and run. That's a lot of things happening on what is effectively a 5 second cooldown.

 

Thief will always depend on the meta. Yes you nerfed most or dp thiefs burst and made less stealth uptime w withdraw nerf. How much hp nerfs did you see? Toughness? Nothing, protection spam? Nothing. The harder its to kill the easier it is for other classes to push thief out.

[Quadox.7834]

I also think thief will be borderline OP after patch, though it is of course speculative.

[ArthurDent.9538]

At the very least thief will be as close to un-killable as anything in this game can be as it won't be possible to burst them down quickly during the times they actually are vulnerable, and their ability to freely disengage and reset from pretty much any bad scenario has only been buffed by other classes having their mobility slashed by a larger degree. Best case scenario thief is an annoying fly that can't be killed but can still be sustained against and bullied off points, worst case scenario unstoppable juggernaut that can't be killed and can't be disengaged from yet will still have plenty of killing power.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I think it's safe to say thief and Daredevil are two of the strongest builds right now and the only builds I've ever heard of to dethrone having a FB support in MATs.

> >

> > While pistol whip is seeing nerfs and even an initiative increase, the significantly stronger Shadow Arts DP isn't see any changes to the new life steal trait that super charged the traditionally purely defensive trait line into something very potent both defensive and offensive, not assassination signet. Just the same 20-30% coefficient nerf everything else is getting. Which has me pretty worried about thief becoming even more dominant after the patch.

> >

> > Anyway on topic you don't need to rebuild the initiative from the ground up. If something is over performing while spammed on thief you can always adjust the initiative cost up a bit to achieve similar results to standard cooldown increases.

> >

> > In fact in many ways tinkering with initiative can alter the way thief loadouts feel more dramatically than adding +5seconds to any other classes weapon skill.

> >

> > Also really wanted to see something done about Sword 2. Like, most people understand thief will be built with a lot of inherent hit and run, but at 3 initiative in 2 out to clear effectively 1800 units of distance, attempt to immobilize the target, get to safety while cleaning has always been a ridiculous level of value and functionally infinite capacity to hit and run. That's a lot of things happening on what is effectively a 5 second cooldown.

>

> Thief will always depend on the meta. Yes you nerfed most or dp thiefs burst and made less stealth uptime w withdraw nerf. How much hp nerfs did you see? Toughness? Nothing, protection spam? Nothing. The harder its to kill the easier it is for other classes to push thief out.

 

Protection and weakness got massive trims across the board. Not only did a lot of like most skills that provide protection or weakness take tons of 50% duration nerfs, but we lost expertise amulets and all the expertise runes got their bonus condition duration deduced by more than half.

 

Both of these changes are really going to be appreciated by thieves who even though they took a few hits on their own. And while toughness and hp didn't get nerfed across the board most defensive skills had their cooldown increases. Revenant having a higher energy cost on reposting shadows and getting less endurance refunding, warding rift having like a 5 or 10 second increased cooldown, ranger greatsword block having an extra 10 second cooldown, phase retreat having an increased cooldown and blink having an increased cooldown. These are all very good for thief+daredevil.

 

Sure toughness and hp didn't get nerfed. But protection spam sure did and cooldown nerfs across to defensive skills did happen massively. Weakness spam nerfs did happen massively.

 

This is all speculative. We really don't know. I just think it's pretty clear the Daredevil overhaul and the Shadow Arts overhaul super charged both Daredevil and Core Thief a lot and the way you see other popular classes seeing extreme targeted nerfs like Glint Shiro, Fire Weaver, and Condition Mirage just didn't happen with thief and that has me nervous.

[Curennos.9307]

...Did anet leave assassin's signet almost totally alone? IIRC it saw a +10 sec cooldown increase, but I don't recall seeing anything about the buff itself going down.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> ...Did anet leave assassin's signet almost totally alone? IIRC it saw a +10 sec cooldown increase, but I don't recall seeing anything about the buff itself going down.

 

i dont see it with cd increase.

 

it does nothing but add damage, if lowered in damage we can call it the noodler's signet.

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> At the very least thief will be as close to un-killable as anything in this game can be as it won't be possible to burst them down quickly during the times they actually are vulnerable, and their ability to freely disengage and reset from pretty much any bad scenario has only been buffed by other classes having their mobility slashed by a larger degree. Best case scenario thief is an annoying fly that can't be killed but can still be sustained against and bullied off points, worst case scenario unstoppable juggernaut that can't be killed and can't be disengaged from yet will still have plenty of killing power.

 

That makes me worried too, but we'll just have to test it out.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > ...Did anet leave assassin's signet almost totally alone? IIRC it saw a +10 sec cooldown increase, but I don't recall seeing anything about the buff itself going down.

>

> i dont see it with cd increase.

>

> it does nothing but add damage, if lowered in damage we can call it the noodler's signet.

 

My b, different signet.

 

But, p much everything is getting noodles attached to it, even the things that only do damage.

 

What if we lowered the power boost by 1%? Would you still call it a noodler's signet? 'it does nothing but x' is really lackluster justification - if mass rebalancing is happening, I hope you can see how assassin's signet could easily become an outlier. Ofc nobody wants it to lose the last few letters and transform into ass signet

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > ...Did anet leave assassin's signet almost totally alone? IIRC it saw a +10 sec cooldown increase, but I don't recall seeing anything about the buff itself going down.

> >

> > i dont see it with cd increase.

> >

> > it does nothing but add damage, if lowered in damage we can call it the noodler's signet.

>

> My b, different signet.

>

> But, p much everything is getting noodles attached to it, even the things that only do damage.

>

> What if we lowered the power boost by 1%? Would you still call it a noodler's signet? 'it does nothing but x' is really lackluster justification - if mass rebalancing is happening, I hope you can see how assassin's signet could easily become an outlier. Ofc nobody wants it to lose the last few letters and transform into kitten signet

 

I mean you are using a utility slot for it.

 

That is quite a justification to use a slot for something that does not break stuns, blind, port, block, give initiative, clear condis or gain energy otherwise or in addition too.

 

The boost last for 5 secs and then even the passive is gone for the cd,

 

I would take this one if we could swap with guardian

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bane_Signet

 

or this one if we could swap with war (note that is 60% of the power gain for double time, and gain unblockable for 6 seconds)

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Might

 

and this one if I could swap with necro

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

 

Backstab got nerfed, and health/toughness did not.

 

I really don't see backstabs getting BIGGER.

 

I saw Cal say that they desire players to slot for damage, so that is not even against their vision.

 

I think it will take some investments into other traits to get some significant numbers.

 

I will be honest about 1 thing that I believe will happen if dp is the real shift.

 

with overall damage being lower, i think a marauders resilence dp dd with zerk amulet will pop up. (because we can stand to be 2k health less)

 

I noticed that none of the 3 stats get nerfed, and that trait makes zerk viable.

 

I could be wrong, but it is what I think, and Sindrener already showcased it a while ago.

[Swagg.9236]

I've said it before about how Thief was always the apex class. Ultimately, there are three classes in GW2: the one which bursts from off-screen, the one which walks effortlessly through all sorts of field hazards in order to burst in melee, and Thief (the one that does both of these things at the same time). The only reason why Thief has been seen as "falling out of favor" over the years isn't because it was ever really nerfed or changed in any meaningful way, but only that every other class in the game became increasingly more Thief-like. Everyone's damage went way up, and a lot of classes gained ridiculously overpowered options to allow for teleporting, ranged attacking, or prolonged damage negation; this created an environment which made afforded Thief less and less impunity when doing anything.

 

If everyone suddenly were to lose half of their effective damage output, then Thief is instantly back on top again. This is all to say that this big, incoming patch isn't "good" per se, for GW2, but the biggest problem that it will generate is the fact that it will almost certainly bring Thief back to top form with very few, if any, challengers.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > ...Did anet leave assassin's signet almost totally alone? IIRC it saw a +10 sec cooldown increase, but I don't recall seeing anything about the buff itself going down.

> > >

> > > i dont see it with cd increase.

> > >

> > > it does nothing but add damage, if lowered in damage we can call it the noodler's signet.

> >

> > My b, different signet.

> >

> > But, p much everything is getting noodles attached to it, even the things that only do damage.

> >

> > What if we lowered the power boost by 1%? Would you still call it a noodler's signet? 'it does nothing but x' is really lackluster justification - if mass rebalancing is happening, I hope you can see how assassin's signet could easily become an outlier. Ofc nobody wants it to lose the last few letters and transform into kitten signet

>

> I mean you are using a utility slot for it.

>

> That is quite a justification to use a slot for something that does not break stuns, blind, port, block, give initiative, clear condis or gain energy otherwise or in addition too.

>

> The boost last for 5 secs and then even the passive is gone for the cd,

>

> I would take this one if we could swap with guardian

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bane_Signet

>

> or this one if we could swap with war (note that is 60% of the power gain for double time, and gain unblockable for 6 seconds)

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Might

>

> and this one if I could swap with necro

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

>

> Backstab got nerfed, and health/toughness did not.

>

> I really don't see backstabs getting BIGGER.

>

> I saw Cal say that they desire players to slot for damage, so that is not even against their vision.

>

> I think it will take some investments into other traits to get some significant numbers.

>

> I will be honest about 1 thing that I believe will happen if dp is the real shift.

>

> with overall damage being lower, i think a marauders resilence dp dd with zerk amulet will pop up. (because we can stand to be 2k health less)

>

> I noticed that none of the 3 stats get nerfed, and that trait makes zerk viable.

>

> I could be wrong, but it is what I think, and Sindrener already showcased it a while ago.

 

'It takes a utility slot' - so does literally every other utility skill. It **was** a pretty good trade off, yeah, for something that didn't do any number of other things. However, now that everything else is getting nerfed....

 

The opportunity cost for taking assassin's signet is going to be less. Especially combined with what I imagine to be the upcoming increased relevance of shadow arts (which started even before the nerfs began). Lacking a stunbreak may not actually be instant death anymore. Condis are (allegedly? I think anet mentioned this somewhere...) going to be less 'bursty'.

 

Backstab doesn't need to get numerically bigger for it to be indirectly buffed. Not only are defenses getting nerfed, but so are sustain things - and most importantly for my point here, imo, is RECOVERY things. Even if the damage is the same, your enemy's ability to recover from the damage spike is, in all likelihood, vastly decreased - so even though the damage of the spike hasn't gone up, there's some interplay there.

 

Mind, I'm not saying gut the skill. But I am a little curious as to anet's reasoning and why they didn't, say...slightly adjust the active power: passive power ratio a little bit, for example. Little more sustained damage, little less burst. Of course, maybe they're waiting for another pass, etcetc, who can really know.

 

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lmao big patch comes and still same ol thief whines, dont u guys get tired of the complaining about the same ol shit over and over?

Gets old no?

[Shao.7236]

Change the Thief Initiative would be like changing Revenant energy, we can't really let that happen, they'll compensate with more changes in the future.

 

Those are the base mechanics that can change the entire flow of these classes. A second is something easy to wrap around anyones mind and it would be foolish to change that.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> Change the Thief Initiative would be like changing Revenant energy, we can't really let that happen, they'll compensate with more changes in the future.

>

> Those are the base mechanics that can change the entire flow of these classes. A second is something easy to wrap around anyones mind and it would be foolish to change that.

 

Revenants have cooldowns on their weapon skills. a.k.a. they can't spam the same attack over and over

 

If weapons like ranger greatsword are getting 3 and 10 second cooldown increases on their defensive skills, and thieves can still attack and actively evade at the same rate they did before the nerfs, then tf?? ... that's going to be so stupid to fight against

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Shadow u keep spewing about thief spam this thief spam that, u know alot of the impactful thief skill cost 5 or 6 ini out of a pool of 12 right? I'll assume ur at least that knowledgeable so if a thief soams(as u say) the same skill that uses 5-6 ini that literally means that the thief cant use ANY more skills from ANY of its weaponsets and will have to wait for ini regen to fill enough for whatever skills needed next. Yeah in a perfect scenario IF a thief uses trickery(some thieves dont) and has rfi equipped and uses rfi the thief can do a third skill immediately but that's a big if.

That's a fair trade off from being able to use 10 weapon skills, 5 in an any order from each weapon. Quit ur whinning.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> I love these moronic posters, makes me feel less bad about my views on people lol.

> Shadow u keep spewing about thief spam this thief spam that, u know alot of the impactful thief skill cost 5 or 6 ini out of a pool of 12 right? I'll assume ur at least that knowledgeable so if a thief soams(as u say) the same skill that uses 5-6 ini that literally means that the thief cant use ANY more skills from ANY of its weaponsets and will have to wait for ini regen to fill enough for whatever skills needed next. Yeah in a perfect scenario IF a thief uses trickery(some thieves dont) and has rfi equipped and uses rfi the thief can do a third skill immediately but that's a big if.

> That's a fair trade off from being able to use 10 weapon skills, 5 in an any order from each weapon. Quit ur whinning.

 

Flanking Strike didn't have it's initiative cost touched. It's a spammable evade that costs 4 initiative, not 5-6.

 

What thief builds don't use trickery? lol

 

Thanks for stating the obvious though. People clearly had no idea thieves can't use their weapon skills if they run out of initiative. /clap

[Shao.7236]

I don't particularly see how Flanking Strike be viable for Spamming though which is the only offender here.. Everything else have seen an increase of Initiative too.

 

As for Revenants, spamming would break the game.. For long Thieves had the possibility to do so and it hasn't really broke it did it?

 

Besides I have noticed how Shadow Arts didn't get touched, but is the stealth really the problem or the damage that comes from being in stealth? If Stealth attacks are gonna remain as strong as they feel right now, I would probably add the feature of having the attacker be revealed as the skills are casted, nobody is gonna have the time to know what's it gonna be but they'll have the decision to evade or not, could bait sustain that way, only might have to slow down some, maybe.