Lets Talk About FA + General Opinion on Patch and PVP

[KeepinItReal.9086]

Dear arena net,

 

I play GW2 for years and im a big fan, 99.9% on ele.

I played every single build existed in this class, even those that were never used.

My play time: 4,228 hours in 2,499 days.

 

FA

As the one who sticked to this build since always, I feel it's my duty to stand for it.

Ele, if not using the current OP fire/water/lightning rod weaver, is like said, the weakest class in the game.

Lowest HP, lowest defense. Any other class will be best to be seen in your PVP team than an ele who is not playing one of the above.

FA, has high damage indeed, but its sustain is just making it unusuable and unviable atm, compared to other classes abilities ofcourse.

Talking about the nerf- You just destroyed FA in every single manner.

Even the least sustain it had - TWIST OF FATE, BLOCK SHIELD, you just turned it 300s , unusable.

Heals? signet of restoration? the bare minimum?? nerfed.

FA can be played ONLY with a specific combination of specalizations - AIR (for fresh air ) ARCANE (for damage) WEAVER (for damage).

Any other combination will sacrifice too much of the damage, that the whole point of fresh air is useless, and another class can do a better job on it.

But you stopped there? You killed the only reason to use ever FA - THE DAMAGE.

You talk about counters, but you destroyed an entire build, that was used for years, and actually requires a smart playstyle and talent, since it is squishy and you run out to cds extremly fast if you faceroll.

You said you wanted every class to consider every skill to use, therefore requires thought = thats excatly FA!

 

Why you insist to force people to use passive/ braindead playstyle like WATER weaver or FIRE WEAVER which both rely on conditions?

It doesnt matter actually, cus even that is now nerfed.

What if i want to just do direct damage? like other classes?

Why ele is the 2nd only class to not have stealth? FA+ STEALTH. Why not?

 

The result on eles for the patch:

People won't use staff ele, cus healing power is nerfed.

They wont use tempest, cus compared to other classes it is just weak.

No one will use weaver sword, cus the healing power and survivability is low now.

No one will use fa, cus it was already nerfed, now the damage aswell, and no defenses at all. so why not pick other classes for the role?

Ofcourse It will be a waste to mention Scepter /Dagger, Dagger/Dagger, WARHORN LOL?, cus these are not being used for years, again cus compared to other classes they are just irrelevant.

 

So, tell me, what should I play when choosing the ele class, that will give me the advantage and singularity over other classes, that my team mates will be glad to see an ELE on their team?

 

What I suggest for ELE:

- Give ele the ability to be a duelist, that doesnt have to rely on passive damage nor bunker one.

- Increase ele's basic Hp and Defense

- Give ele equal exciting abilities that other classes have like STEALTH.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

General Opinion on Patch and PVP

 

I like the idea of nerfing damage, I like the idea of nerfing sustainability and I like the fact you increased CDS for skills to be used more thoughtfully.

What I don't like in the patch is what IT IS MISSING.

PVP in my opinion was lead to the wrong path the moment you:

 

1. OVERPOWERED conditions.

-You seek for talent, but you created a meta system that 100% relies on passive damage-

From patch to patch, in recent years, you didn't fix PVP, you nerfed a build and created another OP one- exmp: condi thief to 1 shot perma stealth / PW spam to death while evading and dazing.

You want talent? nerf conditions to the ground.

 

2. You gave classes abilities of other classes

When one chooses to play a class, it is because the class has its unique abilities and contribution.

PVP in 2020 looks like every class is just mixed with other classes, there is no singularity.

Ranger is now some sort of thief and warrior together.

Necro is a thief with combination of guard.

Mesmer is the god of all, it is a thief, a ranger, a guard, a necro....

And so on. You get me.

Everyone can stunblock, can stealth (most classes), can evade, can bunker, can 1 shot....

Ranger can sustain to immortality, while its pet lands more damage than a zerker player.

Mesmer can kill without moving, all by its clones conditions.

 

 

3. You are not nerfing overpowered abilities

THIEF THIEF THIEF.

Perma stelath? 1 shot in stealth? Spamming 1 and 3 (PW) to death?

To be honest, nerfing damage and sustain are the easy path to "fix" things in pvp .

If you truely thought about every ABILITY you gave to each class, like stunbreaks, stealth, teleportation, stuns - you would realize whats really wrong with pvp.

A warrior that can stun forever, a thief that can be present in all 3 points cus of its op mobility, guard that block 3/4 fight, mesmer that can spam infinte clones, engineer who can spam damage while block and evade then stelath and routine goes on etc etc....

Don't "fix" things the easy way.

You did good when you nerfed damage from stun skills, cus you want each skill to do its purpose only.

Why not take it further? each CLASS needs to role ITS PURPOSE only.

 

4. Imbalance of classes : Damage vs Sustain

It feels like some classes can run zerker ammy, and still have the sustain of a knight one.

So if all classes were damage reduced to -33%, they are still in advantage compared to other classes.

Best examples for that will be : rangers, guards, engineers , mesmers ,necros, thiefs

When one chooses to play a DAMAGE role, he and US need TO FEEL the sacrifice in his SUSTAIN. He cannot have both, else thats called god mode.

 

Thats my thoughts, you can agree/disagree I will be glad to hear.

[reikken.4961]

FA ele got a big buff also:

 

it doesn't explode when sneezed on because every other class in the game got damage reduced by 33%

[KeepinItReal.9086]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> FA ele got a big buff also:

>

> it doesn't explode when sneezed on because every other class in the game got damage reduced by 33%

 

But its damage itself was nerfed, sustain aswell.

So if we talk about ** long fights** with current abilities of every class:

which one you think will win?

the fa with lackof damage and defnese?

or the infinte stun higher damage warrior?

maybe the permastelath higher damage+ infinite daze thief?

[MyPuppy.8970]

To be fair, fa ele relies a lot on abilities that have little counterplay. Instant cast skills and procs, little telegraphs, blinds, immobs @ 900 range. Sure it takes good awareness, kiting and positionning to be played effectively, but any build that dedicates all its traits and gear for damage should be punished if it gets caught, because it is an imbalanced build that should rely on teammates to cover its weaknesses instead of having a free pass at first mistake.

[KeepinItReal.9086]

> @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> To be fair, fa ele relies a lot on abilities that have little counterplay. Instant cast skills and procs, little telegraphs, blinds, immobs @ 900 range. Sure it takes good awareness, kiting and positionning to be played effectively, but any build that dedicates all its traits and gear for damage should be punished if it gets caught, because it is an imbalanced build that should rely on teammates to cover its weaknesses instead of having a free pass at first mistake.

 

I know, and thats what I said, FA was balanced cus the damage vs the sustain was balanced.

But if you compare damage vs sustain of OTHER classes, that is wrong. so why woudl i play ele and sacrifice my defense, if i can just play revanent?

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"KeepinItReal.9086" said:

> > @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> > To be fair, fa ele relies a lot on abilities that have little counterplay. Instant cast skills and procs, little telegraphs, blinds, immobs @ 900 range. Sure it takes good awareness, kiting and positionning to be played effectively, but any build that dedicates all its traits and gear for damage should be punished if it gets caught, because it is an imbalanced build that should rely on teammates to cover its weaknesses instead of having a free pass at first mistake.

>

> I know, and thats what I said, FA was balanced cus the damage vs the sustain was balanced.

> But if you compare damage vs sustain of OTHER classes, that is wrong. so why woudl i play ele and sacrifice my defense, if i can just play revanent?

 

I agree some specs have more get out of jail cards, and built-in passive/active defenses, but they're also being shaved, so i'd just wait it out and see how everything unfolds. Maybe ppl will start to play as a team again and stop trying to be the carry hero.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

I mained sc/f FA weaver when i played pvp, routinely placed it in plat 1-2 in NA, and I can honestly say that the burst was completely unfair. It wasnt meta, and the build had a ton of hard counters, but the speed of the burst, not needing to face your target, having 4 instant cast damage skills on low cd, is all objectively overpowered. If the pace of combat is being reduced along with damage, then FA burst absolutely needed a hard nerf. When facing highly skilled players, the build was all about kiting and positioning, baiting attacks that you could punish, counterbursts, and in general predicting and outplaying your opponent. Losing an easy "I win" burst combo isnt necessarily the end of a playstyle.

[PLS.4095]

An other qq post ,one shot thief ? backstab + steal damage are nerf.

Perma stealth is nerf , just stop read only ur favorite class pls.

[Swagg.9236]

FA ele deserves nothing. It's an utterly un-fun "playstyle" to encounter, and an extremely one-dimensional one to play. It forces opponents to hug walls like Thief often forces players to stand in no-teleport spots just to maintain some semblance of "good positioning" against a class that can instantly negate timing and positioning with the press of a button. FA is certainly one of the biggests example of this game's burst lottery: hoping that your opponent doesn't have a slew of "haha, I take no damage" buttons, or +1'ing a guy from off-screen in order to score an easy kill.

[Lilyanna.9361]

Y'all really complaining about the build that was one-shotted by most of the bruiser builds that ran rampant for the past two years? Wild. Something ain't adding up. So do you have issues with eles because all they can do is heal? Or do you have issues with eles because when they finally get out of healing mode you don't like the fact they can do damage to you now? Which is it?

 

I'm getting a lot of mixed messages from the same people and it sounds like people wanted this class nerfed entirely. Which, the main issue, and what has always been the main issue is Fire Weaver.

[Dantheman.3589]

I think the nerfs to fa will be compensated by the soulbeast pet swap thing, the mirage 1 dodge thing and the scourge shade cd reduction thing. It seems pretty obvious with those 3 things FA ele will be fine

[Avatar.3568]

If anet gives team q back, I could defend you :>

[CroTiger.7819]

I don t know if you played guild wars 1 but elementalist there had perfect spot in teamfight as bonus dmg on spikes which was called from warriors for example hammer one would call target knock it and go on with his combo while ele droped savanah heat something like fire on wand which is delayed and obvious tell and it made it look like perfect spike since warior sets spike for ele. In gw2 every proffesion have ability to set spike for them self and some even have one shot ability combined with op mechanics like stealth and mobility. Ele should be there to fill the call on target with dmg and fa ele deserved nerf to not being able to one shot alone (mesmers and thieves are much worst still in my opinion and they need biger nerfs for sure in terms of mobility and stealth) but now it doesn t provide anything since its conquest and it can t handle to survive if he don t hit and get kill first. Fa weaver should get more defense to maintain in teamfight and it will be in good spot (adding more consistent blind to save allies from spikes not single blinds which get rid of easly...) also should get more snare and control options like chill and some damage reduction for low duration to fit the role of midline. Most of thief and revenants players are so fake nowadays that they ignore obvious facts and still didn t get nerfs they need thinking that its fine to fail spike and disengage anytime and abuse conquest mechanics with top mobility. Pew pew ranger is stupid playstyle and as ranger main i hate it since it was always about pew pew never about interupt ranger we had in gw1. Fa needs more obvious tell and he need more defense and utility on top of that because this game need teamwork of malee callers and midline to kill which was always best suited for ele. Other midline is ranger which should be based on 1/4 daze as interupts on short cd and handy to use combined with build condi pressure. Mesmer finally should be same as ranger in terms of interupt playstyle but its condis should be unique as confusion and torment which punish active (spammy) playstyle while ranger should stay with bleed and poison to punish passive playstyle. Thats another topic where 80% of hard cc should be changed to fit 1/4 daze meant for interupt across all classes (but ranger and mesmer should be kings of it since they run condis and interupts without hard cc would make it much more skillfull), and hard cc should be proffesion unique mechanic such as ranger will have taunt, warior knockdown, ele float and necro fear etc.... Ele is best in midline with mid range filling the spikes on target and helping teamates which are focused with blinds and snare in meantime. Classes should feel more specific and thats very true.

[Widmo.3186]

I agree with OP, despite the fact that FA is also one-shot build like some others exisiting atm, but far easier to dodge/counterplay (compared to, for example, Malicious BS, kek) ofc if played without macros.

PS:

>I played every single build existed in this class, even those that were never used.

And then

>Why you insist to force people to use passive/ braindead playstyle like WATER weaver or FIRE WEAVER which both rely on conditions?

 

Since when water weaver rely on conditions, lol? Water is power build, fire is condi build, please dont insult Mender/Avatar sword like that.

[KeepinItReal.9086]

> @"Widmo.3186" said:

> I agree with OP, despite the fact that FA is also one-shot build like some others exisiting atm, but far easier to dodge/counterplay (compared to, for example, Malicious BS, kek) ofc if played without macros.

> PS:

> >I played every single build existed in this class, even those that were never used.

> And then

> >Why you insist to force people to use passive/ braindead playstyle like WATER weaver or FIRE WEAVER which both rely on conditions?

>

> Since when water weaver rely on conditions, lol? Water is power build, fire is condi build, please dont insult Mender/Avatar sword like that.

 

The most played water build is Cellofrog's one, which relies on might stack and therfore burn abuse with decent dmg.

It doesnt really matter, my point was they force you to abuse passive abilities / spam like builds, where you can make tons of mistakes and still survive.

[Widmo.3186]

> @"KeepinItReal.9086" said:

> > @"Widmo.3186" said:

> > I agree with OP, despite the fact that FA is also one-shot build like some others exisiting atm, but far easier to dodge/counterplay (compared to, for example, Malicious BS, kek) ofc if played without macros.

> > PS:

> > >I played every single build existed in this class, even those that were never used.

> > And then

> > >Why you insist to force people to use passive/ braindead playstyle like WATER weaver or FIRE WEAVER which both rely on conditions?

> >

> > Since when water weaver rely on conditions, lol? Water is power build, fire is condi build, please dont insult Mender/Avatar sword like that.

>

> The most played water build is Cellofrog's one, which relies on might stack and therfore burn abuse with decent dmg.

> It doesnt really matter, my point was they force you to abuse passive abilities / spam like builds, where you can make tons of mistakes and still survive.

 

?? Yes, Im talking about "Cellofrog build". You gain might stacks by rotating around attuns and blasting firefield from fire 2 and 4. You put burning on enemies mainly to make use of Firegrab or fire/fire 3, doubling the damage and making good spike against squishy targets or putting pressure vs bunkers.

Best proof is that Water version uses either Mender or Avatar amulet, none of them has any condi damage modifiers.

 

About passive/spamlike builds I agree, but what left for ele when all other classes use similar builds? I wanted to make clear that Water Weaver main weapon is not condis, because I believe that all those nerfs and deleting Ele from meta is in 90% caused by Fireweaver, which actually uses condis as main damage and passive damage (Water also deals passive damage, but not so high amount as it does the Fire version).

[Avatar.3568]

Still a thing that needs to look at

[Kuma.1503]

> @"Widmo.3186" said:

> > @"KeepinItReal.9086" said:

> > > @"Widmo.3186" said:

> > > I agree with OP, despite the fact that FA is also one-shot build like some others exisiting atm, but far easier to dodge/counterplay (compared to, for example, Malicious BS, kek) ofc if played without macros.

> > > PS:

> > > >I played every single build existed in this class, even those that were never used.

> > > And then

> > > >Why you insist to force people to use passive/ braindead playstyle like WATER weaver or FIRE WEAVER which both rely on conditions?

> > >

> > > Since when water weaver rely on conditions, lol? Water is power build, fire is condi build, please dont insult Mender/Avatar sword like that.

> >

> > The most played water build is Cellofrog's one, which relies on might stack and therfore burn abuse with decent dmg.

> > It doesnt really matter, my point was they force you to abuse passive abilities / spam like builds, where you can make tons of mistakes and still survive.

>

> ?? Yes, Im talking about "Cellofrog build". You gain might stacks by rotating around attuns and blasting firefield from fire 2 and 4. You put burning on enemies mainly to make use of Firegrab or fire/fire 3, doubling the damage and making good spike against squishy targets or putting pressure vs bunkers.

> Best proof is that Water version uses either Mender or Avatar amulet, none of them has any condi damage modifiers.

>

> About passive/spamlike builds I agree, but what left for ele when all other classes use similar builds? I wanted to make clear that Water Weaver main weapon is not condis, because I believe that all those nerfs and deleting Ele from meta is in 90% caused by Fireweaver, which actually uses condis as main damage and passive damage (Water also deals passive damage, but not so high amount as it does the Fire version).

 

Weaver is weird. Even when you're built entirely power, it's not uncommon for burning to contribute a large portion of your damage (especially in PvE). I wouldn't be surprised if Water weaver did put out a good amount of burning damage pre-nerfs.

[Jekkt.6045]

fresh air and lightning rod are in my opinion two of the most interesting traits in the game design wise, even though lightning rod is kinda dumb, both of them change the way you play completely.

 

having said that, neither fa builds nor lr builds were ever truly relevant in the game or even close to meta. why is that? because ele design absolutely sucks.

 

ele doesn't deal any damage "on its own".

 

ele's survivability is underwhelming for its armor and health pool.

 

so what do you do? you either neglect damage and build full sustain, dealing any damage at all via might stacked burning, or trait so hard into damage that you have no sustain at all.

 

ever seen the damage breakdown of a d/d ele? ~50k burning ~30k bleeding and ~10k poison damage. bleeding and poison coming from geomancy/doom...

 

fresh air builds always had, in relation to their defense, underwhelming damage. for how squishy the builds are everything should fall over just from you looking at it. but that would be terrible and incredibly frustrating because fa burst has barely any tell and comes down to guessing.

 

i've been advocating for fresh air buffs for years but anet never really cared about the build at all, buffing useless stuff like water 2 on scepter over and over again for no damn good reason when the main problems are mostly lack of damage and sucky auto attacks on scepter. but can you really buff scepter damage? of course you can, you just have to make it fair...

 

it's actually really simple.. i've talked about it on the forums multiple times already. burst on scepter needs a visual indicator and a delay. this was back when weaver didn't exist yet, but it applies to fa weaver burst all the same. my example back then was: you press air 2. a cloud appears above your target, your skill hits after 0.75-1s or whatever after the cloud appears. amazing, now you have counterplay!

 

i have more than 3k games on ele and i can tell you confidently, anet has no clue what to do with the class nor did they ever have any clue what to do with ele.

 

ps: for the person who talked about gw1 spike ele. to this day, invoke lightning ele is a meta dps in gw1.

 

 

[Grimjack.8130]

FA has and always will be degenerate and you never want it to even be close to meta since it'll just kill the game even more like Holo did, remember when POF launch FA weaver could 1 do 15k+ damage with almost no CD since you had 3 different bursts? Arcane Blast hit for 5k on a 12s recharge with 3 charges yeah, please never again.

Or Core FA that could kite 90% of the things in the game just whiffing Phoenix until they hit it and 1 shot you since it hit 5 times.

 

FA is fun and playable. But you never want it to be really good.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Kuma.1503" said:

> > @"Widmo.3186" said:

> > > @"KeepinItReal.9086" said:

> > > > @"Widmo.3186" said:

> > > > I agree with OP, despite the fact that FA is also one-shot build like some others exisiting atm, but far easier to dodge/counterplay (compared to, for example, Malicious BS, kek) ofc if played without macros.

> > > > PS:

> > > > >I played every single build existed in this class, even those that were never used.

> > > > And then

> > > > >Why you insist to force people to use passive/ braindead playstyle like WATER weaver or FIRE WEAVER which both rely on conditions?

> > > >

> > > > Since when water weaver rely on conditions, lol? Water is power build, fire is condi build, please dont insult Mender/Avatar sword like that.

> > >

> > > The most played water build is Cellofrog's one, which relies on might stack and therfore burn abuse with decent dmg.

> > > It doesnt really matter, my point was they force you to abuse passive abilities / spam like builds, where you can make tons of mistakes and still survive.

> >

> > ?? Yes, Im talking about "Cellofrog build". You gain might stacks by rotating around attuns and blasting firefield from fire 2 and 4. You put burning on enemies mainly to make use of Firegrab or fire/fire 3, doubling the damage and making good spike against squishy targets or putting pressure vs bunkers.

> > Best proof is that Water version uses either Mender or Avatar amulet, none of them has any condi damage modifiers.

> >

> > About passive/spamlike builds I agree, but what left for ele when all other classes use similar builds? I wanted to make clear that Water Weaver main weapon is not condis, because I believe that all those nerfs and deleting Ele from meta is in 90% caused by Fireweaver, which actually uses condis as main damage and passive damage (Water also deals passive damage, but not so high amount as it does the Fire version).

>

> Weaver is weird. Even when you're built entirely power, it's not uncommon for burning to contribute a large portion of your damage (especially in PvE). I wouldn't be surprised if Water weaver did put out a good amount of burning damage pre-nerfs.

 

burning itself just has unusually high base damage

131/sec per stack as a base is lots, add in some might + vuln and you can get 1k+ dmg from random burn skills.

even on power mesmer torch 4+5 can burn for solid ~ 3k if phantasm somehow lands a hit

[Khalisto.5780]

What patch?

[Arheundel.6451]

This community has been calling "degenerate" any resemblance of damage iteration on elementalist......**not once in the entire life of GW2 since 2012 , has this community not cried blood tears everytime ele could deal competitive dmg** , people will come running on the forum every time ele is anything more than a toothless healbot.....

 

 

 

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> FA has and always will be degenerate and you never want it to even be close to meta since it'll just kill the game even more like Holo did, remember when POF launch FA weaver could 1 do 15k+ damage with almost no CD since you had 3 different bursts? Arcane Blast hit for 5k on a 12s recharge with 3 charges yeah, please never again.

> Or Core FA that could kite 90% of the things in the game just whiffing Phoenix until they hit it and 1 shot you since it hit 5 times.

>

> FA is fun and playable. But you never want it to be really good.

 

they sort of managed to fix this a little bit now though by changing the damage on electric discharge (air swap) to vulnerability instead. i dont' think it would be that impossible to "fix" fresh air for example by giving their stuns slightly better animations and putting more a big part of the damage on non-instant skills (phoenix, plasma beam, etcetc)