Power vs Condi effectiveness is now balanced

[Waisenpai.6028]

People forget wvw and spvp are not the same thing. Don't mix the math. There is a must robust sustain, equipment weapons stats or defense vs power builds and condi is crazy there. You got to reverse the power nerf in wvw. While in spvp land, you guys tinker all you want anything can be change with little amuiets. It's magical land were you play in a little circles with glitter that last a round an you are done. WvW is a long term gold, time and fruitless long term investment other than defending your server and or friends or alliance members. There are no tiny rings or timers, it's an active environment and if you were worried about the power balance you;d just need to maybe drop the coefficient from 1.3 to 1.2 or 1.1. Any more is crazy. We never had a such a large nerf without a buff over 7.5 years You can't self validate change without even playing it, that is very unconventional. :(

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> One of the arguments for going damage before has always been that toughness does next to nothing.

>

> But for some reason, that argument is apparently thrown out the window when it comes to all these apparent condi bunkers about to dominate the new meta consisting of the exact same same classes as before, despite condi literally bypassing toughness so that a condi zerg fighting another condi zerg has no use for it.

>

> Hm.

 

"Toughness is useless"

 

"Wears Trailblazer, a toughness primary stat"

[nthmetal.9652]

> @"Waisenpai.6028" said:

> People forget wvw and spvp are not the same thing. Don't mix the math.

 

Do you know where this mixup comes from? Some of the changes are clearly targeted at the sPvP audience. Small scale fights. Like the last two rounds of Mirage changes. It's very necessary in smallscale to do something, but if you think about the large scale combat all these changes amount to .... right. Class not playable.

Now, sure, you might say, Mirage is meant to be played in roaming (an assessment which, while true, IMO goes contrary to the design of an MMO, which should allow you to play ANY profession in a massively multiplayer context - and if the mode offers mass battles, that means, yes, also in mass battles), but there are other changes.

 

Like what about that statement about the condi burst potential? It's definitely there in WvW, even though that goes against the design intentions of the patch. However, I believe in smallscale battles the statement is true.

In the current state of the game, the condiburst is also needed, because have you seen what Scrapper cleanses? Put a scrapper in every group and there is no constant condi pressure. These scrappers never seem to run out of cleanses. And, Anet, don't you think about changing that without also touching condi! That would be a huge mess, as condition creation also never seems to run out of cooldown.

 

So it's not the players doing this mixup of maths and contexts, it's also the devs.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > One of the arguments for going damage before has always been that toughness does next to nothing.

> >

> > But for some reason, that argument is apparently thrown out the window when it comes to all these apparent condi bunkers about to dominate the new meta consisting of the exact same same classes as before, despite condi literally bypassing toughness so that a condi zerg fighting another condi zerg has no use for it.

> >

> > Hm.

>

> "Toughness is useless"

>

> "Wears Trailblazer, a toughness primary stat"

*I'm* not saying it's useless. Quite the contrary, I've *always* ran hybrid/high toughness builds. I sorely miss my 2k toughness mesmer sustain brawler, but Anet killed off the sustain, destroyed offhand sword, then they destroyed the scepter... all while leaving condi mirage intact.

 

On the forums however, toughness doing nothing has always been the general opinion, has it not? That's why power dps is considered meta. Every time someone says well you want some toughness another will enter and go *bUt MAurAder!* with the excuse that you dont need toughness, people insta-kill you anyway.

 

[Yasai.3549]

Nope.

Straight up Condi meta.

 

Power builds nowadays in WvW are actually CC builds, not power builds.

 

Condi and CC are now kings of WvW.

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Considering how plenty of people said condi was too strong in the previous meta which was 90% power burst with all of what? 2 viable condi builds? I think even if condi were removed from the game, people would still be complaining about condi.

[Dawdler.8521]

Well metabattle has updated its zerg meta so its official: **1 out of the 6 meta builds now run condi, instead of 0 before**.

 

*Condi is the new meta people.*

 

Be afraid.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> Well metabattle has updated its zerg meta so its official: **1 out of the 6 meta builds now run condi, instead of 0 before**.

>

> *Condi is the new meta people.*

>

> Be afraid.

 

and 3 of those builds are supports (kinda missing support tempest up there, oh and the other supports are twice condi cleanse focused and guardian, and even here more condi cleanse is used). 1 is a hybrid (celestial scourge), 1 is power (power scourge) and 1 is condi scourge.

 

What are you talking about exactly?

 

From what I can tell, compared to the last meta, condi has gained 1.5. builds, while power has lost ALL it's builds except for power scourge. Condi cleanse is pushed on all support builds as well. No shift happening at all though. /s

 

and that's not even 1 week in. Let's have some more players stack toughness and condi over the next few weeks and revisit power builds, shall we?

[Dralor.3701]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> Well metabattle has updated its zerg meta so its official: **1 out of the 6 meta builds now run condi, instead of 0 before**.

>

> *Condi is the new meta people.*

>

> Be afraid.

 

This assumes meta battle is the only builds people run? Also aren’t at least half the meta builds for WvW usually support?

[Threather.9354]

Power is way better in a group setting. If you run any condi, you run either Cele (Healing power for barriers/blood magic) or Dire/TB for sake of being supertanky frontline (condi revs). The main purpose of running condidamage isn't to deal more damage but use the fact that it only requires 1 stat (condi damage) compared to 3 that power builds require (power, precision, ferocity) so you can access more tanky/supportive builds.

 

Condi is just terrible source of damage against coordinated groups that have some resistance and lot of AoE cleanse. Newbies just don't cleanse in time so condi feels stronger now. Against a metagroup, your condis will get max 1 tick of considerable damage off.

 

TLDR; If you run condition damage in group setting, you don't run it for the damage. Condi builds aren't necessary, power builds are.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > One of the arguments for going damage before has always been that toughness does next to nothing.

> > >

> > > But for some reason, that argument is apparently thrown out the window when it comes to all these apparent condi bunkers about to dominate the new meta consisting of the exact same same classes as before, despite condi literally bypassing toughness so that a condi zerg fighting another condi zerg has no use for it.

> > >

> > > Hm.

> >

> > "Toughness is useless"

> >

> > "Wears Trailblazer, a toughness primary stat"

> *I'm* not saying it's useless. Quite the contrary, I've *always* ran hybrid/high toughness builds. I sorely miss my 2k toughness mesmer sustain brawler, but Anet killed off the sustain, destroyed offhand sword, then they destroyed the scepter... all while leaving condi mirage intact.

 

I know. I am not disagreeing with you. I'm just making fun of people that say toughness is useless but are actually stacking tons of it for some reason.

 

 

>

> On the forums however, toughness doing nothing has always been the general opinion, has it not? That's why power dps is considered meta. Every time someone says well you want some toughness another will enter and go *bUt MAurAder!* with the excuse that you dont need toughness, people insta-kill you anyway.

>

 

And then you see all these threads about being one shot, lol.

 

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> Well metabattle has updated its zerg meta so its official: **1 out of the 6 meta builds now run condi, instead of 0 before**.

>

> *Condi is the new meta people.*

>

> Be afraid.

 

That is probably the direction we're going. Though I will warn you sometimes metabattle is very wrong. I remember trying to copy a pve rotation only to realize from other sources it reduces dps. So! xD

 

Edit: Also purging flames on minstrel firebrand wtf. Yea I'm going to sit in a bomb to receive that slowly pulsing condi clear. I thought it was going to be Meme of Justice; I'd rather take Meme of Truth tbh.

 

Also RIP herald. Maybe a return to condi corrupt herald? I'm also curious on which scourge is meta; probably doesn't matter lol.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"xDudisx.5914" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > One of the arguments for going damage before has always been that toughness does next to nothing.

> >

> > But for some reason, that argument is apparently thrown out the window when it comes to all these apparent condi bunkers about to dominate the new meta consisting of the exact same same classes as before, despite condi literally bypassing toughness so that a condi zerg fighting another condi zerg has no use for it.

> >

> > Hm.

>

> Offensive stats tend to be better than defensive ones, but that does not mean defensive stats are useless. Right now condi users can go Traillblaser stats having all condi offensive stats + some defensive ones. For power users there is no stat combination that gives all direct dmg offensive stats + toughness+vit.

>

> Also, in zergs most people rely in aoe cleansing coming from other players such as minstrel FB. In small scale condi becomes way deadlier since most havock/roaming groups don't have pocket healers around.

>

>

>

>

 

Because Power stats are often paired with Concentration instead. And who needs armor when you have high Protection, Stability, Might, Fury, Retaliation and Quickness uptime which only a very small handful of condition builds can have.

Not only that, but many Power builds can afford to take things that make them effectively immune to soft CC and often have other sources of damage reduction. This doesn't mean some Condition builds can't have access to these things as well but it does mean if they go that route they are often more of a tank than a damage dealer.

 

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"xDudisx.5914" said:

> > Right now condi users can go Traillblaser stats having all condi offensive stats + some defensive ones.

> Do you know why? Because that is the only way they've been able to come close to compete with power... And power still wins at killing people faster the more you stack.

>

>

 

Exactly this. With damage being reduced across the board Power builds might be less effective on the smaller scale but are likely to still have a place. On a large scale however, they stand a much better chance because a Power spike blows people up a lot faster than a Condition spike.

[Einlanzer.1627]

I don't know why they don't nerf condi and cleanse both. Condi damage should generally be lower than power damage, but it should be harder to mitigate. That was the original purpose that they for some reason felt the reason to flip on its head.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I think people need to adjust there glass blast builds is all. Power builds have been used to being full meta and now don’t know how to adjust.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I guess the polls show that 50% of the folks have not adjusted their builds to include more anti-condi options.

Pre-patch, power builds could get away with lesser anti-condi options because they killed fast enough to not need that many.

Post-patch, with damage reduced, they need more anti-condi options in their build to take on condi foes.

Cleansing sigils, anti-toxin runes, condi management skills and boons are all still available.

 

Personally I've not lost to any condi opponent post-patch because my build is packed with anti-condi tools.

I can beat even condi mirages, heralds and thieves easily.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"SamouraiPizzaCat.4821" said:

> > Power builds still work. You need to make adjustments. I've adjusted all my toons. They are still playable. You need to theory craft.

>

> This man knows his stuff.

> Power was a lot stronger than condi before the patch.

> On a scale of 1-10, 10 being most effective, power was 10 and condi was around 6-8 depending on class before the patch.

>

> After the balance, condi is still around 6-8 and power has also been brought down to the same 6-8 level.

>

> Power vs Condi effectiveness is now balanced.

>

>**As the Samourai cat said, power still works**. But you need to theorycraft. Bring more condi clears and you can still do well.

>

> I fought Cake Walk Vaans just yesterday. I won the first round against his spellbreaker using a condi core necro. He tweaked his build to include more anti-condi and came back to thrash me twice.

>

> Please stop complaining that condi is stronger because it ain’t true. We all have access to many condi management tools. It is just a matter of whether you want to include them in your build.

>

> Those who adapt survive.

 

**+1**

 

'They nerfed me and I became more POWERFUL'

 

 

(current build included)

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> I think people need to adjust there glass blast builds is all. Power builds have been used to being full meta and now don’t know how to adjust.

 

Most people tend to run 1 healing skill and everything else for utility and damage or full damage... ence condi is very effective on group play there’s plenty skills to reduce condi effectiveness heals and cleanses...

 

 

It’s kinda l2p or adaption issues since most are looking for a low effort gameplay.

 

Condi is truly weaker, I’m not getting defeated by condi builds that easilly like we had on the past, combats are more balanced and it’s more based on who blows skill mindless looses due heavy CD.

 

Combats are more fair towards player skill management rather than spam so condi and power builds are more balanced against each other there no longer the overwhelming sensation of condi self made bomb.

 

Condi renegade/mallyx is by far weaker than before.... I can’t no longer win in just a few seconds mindlessly.

 

Glass builds are still fine to play, people just can’t rush and overextend like they used to do since they had powercreep kill mostly confirmed...now brain mass need to be used when playing rather than powercreep targets with just a few skill...

 

 

This condi meta is just groups searching for a low effort gameplay since they lost efectivemess, it’s normal to happen.

 

 

And btw there are still decent mirages... now one can notice who really are being good with the class....

[Nimon.7840]

It really depends on the situation.

There's Condi builds that work in zergs and are even too strong (yes looking at you guard -btw I and others predicted it and still nothing was done about it)

And also for roaming Condi builds work.

 

But generally saying: in zergs especially guild groups, power builds are stronger unless you build your whole guild group around sustain and Condi dmg it might still work.

But right now, in well organized groups there's still way to many Condi cleanses.

 

 

[subversiontwo.7501]

Condi is undoubtedly stronger.

 

Vaansss swapping to a counter build says more about the Warrior class than it says about damage-type balance.

 

The Warrior has always had very gratitious cleansing options and other classes could have built a complete counter to you and still have insufficient cleanses.

[Groutowicz.2984]

Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

[sneakytails.5629]

Was roaming last night on T3 NA and started fighting a BOZ mesmer and was then plus one'd by a condi bunker Firebrand. I Managed a last ditch Eviscerate to down the mesmer, but with my condi defense on cool-down this happened. It was literally like getting stomped by a Warclaw in slow motion.

 

 

This is the highest amount of condition damage I have ever been hit with in that short amount of time in the years that I have been playing this game.

 

35,086 condition damage in a few seconds.

 

I was not really paying attention to the numbers until I glanced at them afterwards, I have never hit even close to those numbers with condi Berserker even with might stacking.

 

I am seeing more and more condition bunkers, my first 8 fights were all against condition builds.

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

 

And that's where you're completely wrong in my opinion.

Condition builds also rely on at least 3 stats, them being Condi dmg, vitality, armor (well there's some exceptions).

 

So why do I state this?

First off, a lot of people say, that power damage can be completely negated by dodging the skill thrown at you.

But they seem to keep forgetting, that this applies to a Condi build as well. Dodge the skill that applies condis and you won't get damage!

 

Also why do condition builds need at least 3 stats. Being vitality, toughness and condition damage (in some cases even healing power but let's exclude that)

Condition builds need those defensive stats to get their damage off. You can see that you won't win many duels if you only get this condition damage stat up. Cause condis take their time to do damage, so you gotta stall your opponent.

 

Let's get to the exceptions. While some Condi builds aren't that oppressive, because they don't have insane Condi burst, there's definetly some exceptions.

Being Condi rev, Condi guard, (thief), ele, (maybe need to add engi as well, but I first have to test this super aids Condi build myself before I can tell).

 

Why are those exceptions? Because they all have Condi burst, not slow ramping up condis that don't tick very high.

Fighting against those classes is like: oh you ate one Condi Spike? Then you're dead with the next 3 ticks.

And that's the real issue here. Condis on some classes aren't that ramping up damage, that you have to stall the game for.

[Groutowicz.2984]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

>

> And that's where you're completely wrong in my opinion.

> Condition builds also rely on at least 3 stats, them being Condi dmg, vitality, armor (well there's some exceptions).

>

> So why do I state this?

> First off, a lot of people say, that power damage can be completely negated by dodging the skill thrown at you.

> But they seem to keep forgetting, that this applies to a Condi build as well. Dodge the skill that applies condis and you won't get damage!

>

> Also why do condition builds need at least 3 stats. Being vitality, toughness and condition damage (in some cases even healing power but let's exclude that)

> Condition builds need those defensive stats to get their damage off. You can see that you won't win many duels if you only get this condition damage stat up. Cause condis take their time to do damage, so you gotta stall your opponent.

>

> Let's get to the exceptions. While some Condi builds aren't that oppressive, because they don't have insane Condi burst, there's definetly some exceptions.

> Being Condi rev, Condi guard, (thief), ele, (maybe need to add engi as well, but I first have to test this super aids Condi build myself before I can tell).

>

> Why are those exceptions? Because they all have Condi burst, not slow ramping up condis that don't tick very high.

> Fighting against those classes is like: oh you ate one Condi Spike? Then you're dead with the next 3 ticks.

> And that's the real issue here. Condis on some classes aren't that ramping up damage, that you have to stall the game for.

 

Your rebuttal confirmed everything I said. Just cause “your build” doesn’t do spike, the stats aren’t the problem. Full tank while getting ticked for 11k burn is nonsense. If you think otherwise you are what’s wrong with the game. Full defensive stats while putting out higher Dps than power builds, is not balance.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> >

> > And that's where you're completely wrong in my opinion.

> > Condition builds also rely on at least 3 stats, them being Condi dmg, vitality, armor (well there's some exceptions).

> >

> > So why do I state this?

> > First off, a lot of people say, that power damage can be completely negated by dodging the skill thrown at you.

> > But they seem to keep forgetting, that this applies to a Condi build as well. Dodge the skill that applies condis and you won't get damage!

> >

> > Also why do condition builds need at least 3 stats. Being vitality, toughness and condition damage (in some cases even healing power but let's exclude that)

> > Condition builds need those defensive stats to get their damage off. You can see that you won't win many duels if you only get this condition damage stat up. Cause condis take their time to do damage, so you gotta stall your opponent.

> >

> > Let's get to the exceptions. While some Condi builds aren't that oppressive, because they don't have insane Condi burst, there's definetly some exceptions.

> > Being Condi rev, Condi guard, (thief), ele, (maybe need to add engi as well, but I first have to test this super aids Condi build myself before I can tell).

> >

> > Why are those exceptions? Because they all have Condi burst, not slow ramping up condis that don't tick very high.

> > Fighting against those classes is like: oh you ate one Condi Spike? Then you're dead with the next 3 ticks.

> > And that's the real issue here. Condis on some classes aren't that ramping up damage, that you have to stall the game for.

>

> Your rebuttal confirmed everything I said. Just cause “your build” doesn’t do spike, the stats aren’t the problem. Full tank while getting ticked for 11k burn is nonsense. If you think otherwise you are what’s wrong with the game. Full defensive stats while putting out higher Dps than power builds, is not balance.

 

Like I said. There are exceptions to how it should be.

Yet Condi damage has more counters than power damage:

 

Counters to power:

1. Evade

2. Block

 

Counters to Condi:

1. Evade the application

2. Block the application

3. Resistance

4. Active Condi cleanses

5. Passive condicleanses

 

Even if you put active and passive Condi cleanses together into one point, that's still double the amount of counters.

And especially right now, when you know that there's lots of condition builds running around, not building to counter them is silly and ignorant. Then it's easy to say "no-skill builds, ROFL" but

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

 

I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

 

Hint: It won't be long.

 

Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

 

The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.