Jski.6180

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > Core ele needs a massive update and it IS lacking a mechanic. > > > It might need an update BUT there is no mechanic lacking here. Swapping elements is a class mechanic. You might think it's deficient ... but it IS a mechanic. The lack of mechanic is due to tempest and weaver getting the same mechanic but that not there true mechanic. In a way it gets back to wepon swap being a mechanic of a class or not in it self is not enofe on its own to be a true mechanic. Ele is a mages that dose not use magic. The wepon it holds is more importen then the atument it is in. For a mages magic should be the mechanic not the wepon and sadly the different atuments are not different enofe in effect to call them a mechanic.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can enjoy a class that is updated to the point where there no reason to play that class any more due to bad choose of the game makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, that's why this isn't a problem. If you enjoy it and play it, it's because you chose it because of 'enjoy', _even_ if it doesn't meet your criteria of 'performance'. If you want to choose based on 'performance' or _whatever_ ... then you might make a different choice. Choice is the answer. Anet can't make the game to cater to all the class choice criteria you have so ele is always the answer for those criteria. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That the thing this game is no longer about choice in the class you play its become a very by the numbers in all of the game types because of elite spec and them only being add on to the core class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's only because you choose to play the game that way. Not everyone has the same criteria to choose a class that you do. The only problem here is that your choices based on your criteria aren't the ones you prefer. Anet can't cater to you; this is EXACTLY the reason we have all the choices that exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You choose to have a use in a fight not the fact that the very system your playing in dose not focse you into a roll? I think you do not understand hard content or balancing realty. I think you may not understand the game that well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game isn't designed around roles INTENTIONALLY and the threshold for success in 'hard' content is low enough that it allows players to make choices over a set of criteria that includes more than just 'performance'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... what is it that I don't understand about the game now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is now > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't make sense ... the game isn't designed so we need roles filled in teams to be successful in hard content ... even now. If it does, it's because you CHOOSE to play that way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See you don't want to recognize it ... but that's the beauty of the game. It's all about how you want to play; Anet has truly achieved this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your right it was not designed around rolls but anet added them > > > > > > > > > > No, there is NO roles added in this game. If you play in a 'role', it's because you choose to build and play that way. This 'roles' is NOT something Anet imposed in the game design itself because you and a team can be successful and NOT make choices around being in a role. > > > > > > > > > > I mean, let's put a lid on this ... OK, even if there is game design around 'roles', it doesn't change the fact that Anet can't cater to what you think should be included in your choices for a set of criteria you want to apply. It doesn't change the fact that the threshold for success in 'hard' content is low enough that it allows players to make choices over a set of criteria that includes more than just 'performance' > > > > > > > > Your just opening for abuse of existing classes and things ppl find fun for new things and power creep / p2w. > > > > > > Again, that just depends on your criteria for making choices and how you CHOOSE to be abused by criteria not related to how you make those choices. If your criteria is 'fun' then other criteria don't matter. If those other criteria offend you even if your primary one is 'fun', that's not a problem Anet has to fix ... that's just an additional requirement that could affect your pool of possible choices. > > > > > > Swapping elements is as true as any other 'swapping' mechanic in this game because swapping elements DOES have a real impact on how you play and what you want to do. > > > > > > Trying to make this into a P2W argument is a non-starter because > > > > > > 1. Clearly, whatever level of P2W you want to claim exists, it's not going to change and it's not even going to get better; it's going to get worse. > > > 2. Having limited choices based on 'performance' criteria existed from day 1, long before especs existed. > > > > > > If anything, especs EXPAND the pool of builds that satisfy multiple or complex class choice criteria players want to have ... so you are wrong when you imply that 'p2w' is somehow a negative impact on players making class choices. > > > > > > If GW2 is too much P2W for you, only YOU can choose how to spend your time playing games and what games you play; that Pandora's box was opened a LONG time ago. But that's not anything to do with Ele and how 'true' it's class mechanic is. > > > > You as a player can chose as much as you want but you cant make ppl play with you due to thoughts choose. > > True, you can't make people think how you want ... but you still can CHOOSE who you play with. So again, if you are CHOOSING to play with people who tell you how and what to play, that's not a problem Anet fixes for you and it's certainly not a reason for Anet to change ele class mechanic. > > There is no lacking mechanic here. Swapping elements is a perfectly reasonable class mechanic because it DOES have a real impact on how you play and what you want to do. But that the problem you can be fin saying to other ppl do what you want how you want but that dose not mean they can do it and your comply gosling over a real problem with the ele class by saying such things. This is called apologizing for anet. Core ele needs a massive update and it IS lacking a mechanic. So far only core classes get nerf due to there elite spec. because these elite spec fill rolls that are not part of the game that why ppl call it p2w. Until anet lets you do all content solo you point is invade.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > You can enjoy a class that is updated to the point where there no reason to play that class any more due to bad choose of the game makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, that's why this isn't a problem. If you enjoy it and play it, it's because you chose it because of 'enjoy', _even_ if it doesn't meet your criteria of 'performance'. If you want to choose based on 'performance' or _whatever_ ... then you might make a different choice. Choice is the answer. Anet can't make the game to cater to all the class choice criteria you have so ele is always the answer for those criteria. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That the thing this game is no longer about choice in the class you play its become a very by the numbers in all of the game types because of elite spec and them only being add on to the core class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's only because you choose to play the game that way. Not everyone has the same criteria to choose a class that you do. The only problem here is that your choices based on your criteria aren't the ones you prefer. Anet can't cater to you; this is EXACTLY the reason we have all the choices that exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You choose to have a use in a fight not the fact that the very system your playing in dose not focse you into a roll? I think you do not understand hard content or balancing realty. I think you may not understand the game that well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game isn't designed around roles INTENTIONALLY and the threshold for success in 'hard' content is low enough that it allows players to make choices over a set of criteria that includes more than just 'performance'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... what is it that I don't understand about the game now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is now > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't make sense ... the game isn't designed so we need roles filled in teams to be successful in hard content ... even now. If it does, it's because you CHOOSE to play that way. > > > > > > > > > > See you don't want to recognize it ... but that's the beauty of the game. It's all about how you want to play; Anet has truly achieved this. > > > > > > > > Your right it was not designed around rolls but anet added them > > > > > > No, there is NO roles added in this game. If you play in a 'role', it's because you choose to build and play that way. This 'roles' is NOT something Anet imposed in the game design itself because you and a team can be successful and NOT make choices around being in a role. > > > > > > I mean, let's put a lid on this ... OK, even if there is game design around 'roles', it doesn't change the fact that Anet can't cater to what you think should be included in your choices for a set of criteria you want to apply. It doesn't change the fact that the threshold for success in 'hard' content is low enough that it allows players to make choices over a set of criteria that includes more than just 'performance' > > > > Your just opening for abuse of existing classes and things ppl find fun for new things and power creep / p2w. > > Again, that just depends on your criteria for making choices and how you CHOOSE to be abused by criteria not related to how you make those choices. If your criteria is 'fun' then other criteria don't matter. If those other criteria offend you even if your primary one is 'fun', that's not a problem Anet has to fix ... that's just an additional requirement that could affect your pool of possible choices. > > Swapping elements is as true as any other 'swapping' mechanic in this game because swapping elements DOES have a real impact on how you play and what you want to do. > > Trying to make this into a P2W argument is a non-starter because > > 1. Clearly, whatever level of P2W you want to claim exists, it's not going to change and it's not even going to get better; it's going to get worse. > 2. Having limited choices based on 'performance' criteria existed from day 1, long before especs existed. > > If anything, especs EXPAND the pool of builds that satisfy multiple or complex class choice criteria players want to have ... so you are wrong when you imply that 'p2w' is somehow a negative impact on players making class choices. > > If GW2 is too much P2W for you, only YOU can choose how to spend your time playing games and what games you play; that Pandora's box was opened a LONG time ago. But that's not anything to do with Ele and how 'true' it's class mechanic is. You as a player can chose as much as you want but you cant make ppl play with you due to thoughts choose. This is a team base game and now a roll base game with limited space in groups. You can believe that you can do any thing you want in real life but real life has a way of wining out at the end of the day. Gaming / non real worlds are the same way. Ele lacks a mechanic its realty that simple.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > You can enjoy a class that is updated to the point where there no reason to play that class any more due to bad choose of the game makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, that's why this isn't a problem. If you enjoy it and play it, it's because you chose it because of 'enjoy', _even_ if it doesn't meet your criteria of 'performance'. If you want to choose based on 'performance' or _whatever_ ... then you might make a different choice. Choice is the answer. Anet can't make the game to cater to all the class choice criteria you have so ele is always the answer for those criteria. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That the thing this game is no longer about choice in the class you play its become a very by the numbers in all of the game types because of elite spec and them only being add on to the core class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's only because you choose to play the game that way. Not everyone has the same criteria to choose a class that you do. The only problem here is that your choices based on your criteria aren't the ones you prefer. Anet can't cater to you; this is EXACTLY the reason we have all the choices that exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You choose to have a use in a fight not the fact that the very system your playing in dose not focse you into a roll? I think you do not understand hard content or balancing realty. I think you may not understand the game that well. > > > > > > > > > > This game isn't designed around roles INTENTIONALLY and the threshold for success in 'hard' content is low enough that it allows players to make choices over a set of criteria that includes more than just 'performance'. > > > > > > > > > > ... what is it that I don't understand about the game now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is now > > > > > > That doesn't make sense ... the game isn't designed so we need roles filled in teams to be successful in hard content ... even now. If it does, it's because you CHOOSE to play that way. > > > > > > See you don't want to recognize it ... but that's the beauty of the game. It's all about how you want to play; Anet has truly achieved this. > > > > Your right it was not designed around rolls but anet added them > > No, there is NO roles added in this game. If you play in a 'role', it's because you choose to build and play that way. This 'roles' is NOT something Anet imposed in the game design itself because you and a team can be successful and NOT make choices around being in a role. > > I mean, let's put a lid on this ... OK, even if there is game design around 'roles', it doesn't change the fact that Anet can't cater to what you think should be included in your choices for a set of criteria you want to apply. It doesn't change the fact that the threshold for success in 'hard' content is low enough that it allows players to make choices over a set of criteria that includes more than just 'performance' Your just opening for abuse of existing classes and things ppl find fun for new things and power creep / p2w. Its just wrong not every one is playing the game F2P and the core classes are NOT F2P content they need to be as viable as the elite spec at all points of the game. This all comes down to core ele has no true mechanic.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > You can enjoy a class that is updated to the point where there no reason to play that class any more due to bad choose of the game makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, that's why this isn't a problem. If you enjoy it and play it, it's because you chose it because of 'enjoy', _even_ if it doesn't meet your criteria of 'performance'. If you want to choose based on 'performance' or _whatever_ ... then you might make a different choice. Choice is the answer. Anet can't make the game to cater to all the class choice criteria you have so ele is always the answer for those criteria. > > > > > > > > > > > > That the thing this game is no longer about choice in the class you play its become a very by the numbers in all of the game types because of elite spec and them only being add on to the core class. > > > > > > > > > > That's only because you choose to play the game that way. Not everyone has the same criteria to choose a class that you do. The only problem here is that your choices based on your criteria aren't the ones you prefer. Anet can't cater to you; this is EXACTLY the reason we have all the choices that exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You choose to have a use in a fight not the fact that the very system your playing in dose not focse you into a roll? I think you do not understand hard content or balancing realty. I think you may not understand the game that well. > > > > > > This game isn't designed around roles INTENTIONALLY and the threshold for success in 'hard' content is low enough that it allows players to make choices over a set of criteria that includes more than just 'performance'. > > > > > > ... what is it that I don't understand about the game now? > > > > > > > > > > But it is now > > That doesn't make sense ... the game isn't designed so we need roles filled in teams to be successful in hard content ... even now. If it does, it's because you CHOOSE to play that way. > > See you don't want to recognize it ... but that's the beauty of the game. It's all about how you want to play; Anet has truly achieved this. Your right it was not designed around rolls but anet added them in and its messed up the balancing. Its like pve the game in no way is made for support rolls at all you cant target your skills on your team mates you can only target attks on mobs but you DO have rolls that are all in support healing. This is cult level of denial "Anet has truly achieved this." You may want to ask your self why your using these words.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > You can enjoy a class that is updated to the point where there no reason to play that class any more due to bad choose of the game makers. > > > > > > > > > > True, that's why this isn't a problem. If you enjoy it and play it, it's because you chose it because of 'enjoy', _even_ if it doesn't meet your criteria of 'performance'. If you want to choose based on 'performance' or _whatever_ ... then you might make a different choice. Choice is the answer. Anet can't make the game to cater to all the class choice criteria you have so ele is always the answer for those criteria. > > > > > > > > That the thing this game is no longer about choice in the class you play its become a very by the numbers in all of the game types because of elite spec and them only being add on to the core class. > > > > > > That's only because you choose to play the game that way. Not everyone has the same criteria to choose a class that you do. The only problem here is that your choices based on your criteria aren't the ones you prefer. Anet can't cater to you; this is EXACTLY the reason we have all the choices that exist. > > > > > > > > > > You choose to have a use in a fight not the fact that the very system your playing in dose not focse you into a roll? I think you do not understand hard content or balancing realty. I think you may not understand the game that well. > > This game isn't designed around roles INTENTIONALLY and the threshold for success in 'hard' content is low enough that it allows players to make choices over a set of criteria that includes more than just 'performance'. > > ... what is it that I don't understand about the game now? > > But it is now i get at one point it was not designed around roles and that where the core classes get there balancing from (more so ele then other classes) but with elite spec they added in roles and it WAS INTENTIONAL. I love to have my condi staff core ele in raids but i have a feeling its not going to go well. I love to see thf play a full support roll at all points of the game but i do not think it will work well and ppl will let you use up space for such a build. I think your mind set is stuck in the past gw2 and realty ele core balancing is very much stuck in the past of gw2 balancing and effects. Its still 2012 for ele sadly its 2021 for most other classes and elite spec.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > You can enjoy a class that is updated to the point where there no reason to play that class any more due to bad choose of the game makers. > > > > > > True, that's why this isn't a problem. If you enjoy it and play it, it's because you chose it because of 'enjoy', _even_ if it doesn't meet your criteria of 'performance'. If you want to choose based on 'performance' or _whatever_ ... then you might make a different choice. Choice is the answer. Anet can't make the game to cater to all the class choice criteria you have so ele is always the answer for those criteria. > > > > That the thing this game is no longer about choice in the class you play its become a very by the numbers in all of the game types because of elite spec and them only being add on to the core class. > > That's only because you choose to play the game that way. Not everyone has the same criteria to choose a class that you do. The only problem here is that your choices based on your criteria aren't the ones you prefer. Anet can't cater to you; this is EXACTLY the reason we have all the choices that exist. > > You choose to have a use in a fight not the fact that the very system your playing in dose not focse you into a roll? I think you do not understand hard content or balancing realty. I think you may not understand the game that well.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > You can enjoy a class that is updated to the point where there no reason to play that class any more due to bad choose of the game makers. > > True, that's why this isn't a problem. If you enjoy it and play it, it's because you chose it because of 'enjoy', _even_ if it doesn't meet your criteria of 'performance'. If you want to choose based on 'performance' or _whatever_ ... then you might make a different choice. Choice is the answer. Anet can't make the game to cater to all the class choice criteria you have so ele is always the answer for those criteria. That the thing this game is no longer about choice in the class you play its become a very by the numbers in all of the game types because of elite spec and them only being add on to the core class. This IS the core problem here anet has made power creep and pay 2 win and its simply no longer "fun" to just be there an not helping others or adding to the event because your on a core class and not an elite spec that you may or may not be able to pay for. Pointing out the lack of an mechanic for the core ele is just an massive example of this problem. It is a MUST talk about subject every time you even start to think about any thing going on in this game.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey ... you know what the answer is? Choose another profession! That's not just being glib either. That's the reason other classes exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The real interesting question is how they will continually create especs in this limited class mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And most have the only way to balances ele is .... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop there ... we aren't talking about balance here. If someone doesn't like how a class mechanic works, that's not a problem that is fixed by Anet changing how that mechanic works and it has no relation to how it's balanced. It's fixed by people choosing a class that has a mechanic they do like. This is literally the reason we have 9 classes with unique mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone thinks swap mechanics for core ele is not that great a mechanic? OK ... find a class that has a great mechanic and play it. I mean, let's not pretend 'bad class mechanic' is some justification to get Anet to focus on ele with the hope they improve it's balance. If you have a beef with balance on ele, then don't assume changing class mechanic addresses that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most classes NEED a class mechanic to be balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK ... but that's not the OP's complaint. OP believes swapping elements isn't a proper mechanic for ele. That's not a balance issue and the answer to that is to choose a profession with a 'proper' mechanic he liks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it ... you want to talk about balance ... OK, but just not here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the amount of variation between the skills of each atument is not enofe to call a true mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > You're going to have to explain yourself here ... the variation between the element skills are certainly different enough to make people choose them for specific things they want to do ... yet somehow allowing people to swap those elements to react to the situation they are in isn't 'true' as a mechanic? That doesn't make sense. Reacting to a situation by swapping element to access tools you need is just as much a true mechanic as any other in this game. If anything, swapping to a different 'mode' is a VERY common mechanic for many classes in this game ... and that's not a balancing issue at all. This is simply about people not liking it. If you don't like 'swapping' as a mechanic, choose a class that doesn't do it. > > > > > > > > > > I mean, the whole discussion is moot anyways ... do you think we prove the mechanic isn't true, Anet is going to just create a whole new one or something? Not a chance. Seems to me this is just a bad attempt to get Anet to focus on changing the class mechanic and hoping whatever the change is, it affects balance for it in a positive way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like saying wepon swap of say war is an class only mechanic. Staff has 4 "fire balls" 4 "small aoe hits" 4 "utility" and 4 "big aoe" dagger the same way the atument in effect dose not play enofe roll in the class use of the wepon BUT the wepon it self plays a bigger roll in the class. Making atuments less of a mechanic then the wepon you chose to use. > > > > > > I'm not going to argue about your comparisons ... they don't make what I said ANY less true. Swapping element to access tools you need to react to whatever situation you are in is just as much a true mechanic as any other class mechanic in this game, especially since the 'swapping' concept is common mechanic many classes have. If 'swapping' is a mechanic you feel is deficient that makes the class you play not enjoyable, then pick your classes better. > > > > > > > The talk is core ele vs its elite spec tempest and weaver they all have atument swap but the elite spec have added mechanics. > > Right ... but that's NOT a balance issue; additional mechanics are not necessarily indicators of being better balanced. There might be people that actually PREFER the approach a core Ele offers. This is about appeal of class mechanics. If core ele has a mechanic you don't like, for WHATEVER reason, don't play it. If you appreciate the additional mechanics of the especs, then play them. The solution here has ALWAYS been about player choice because Anet can't cater to every players desire or idea for how the game should work. > > >By saying "play another class" is one of the worst things you can say to an ele player > > That can't be true because it's the reason we have all these options to make choices in this game, include what class we play. > To say this is not balance seems very short sighted. You can enjoy a class that is updated to the point where there no reason to play that class any more due to bad choose of the game makers.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > Hey ... you know what the answer is? Choose another profession! That's not just being glib either. That's the reason other classes exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The real interesting question is how they will continually create especs in this limited class mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And most have the only way to balances ele is .... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop there ... we aren't talking about balance here. If someone doesn't like how a class mechanic works, that's not a problem that is fixed by Anet changing how that mechanic works and it has no relation to how it's balanced. It's fixed by people choosing a class that has a mechanic they do like. This is literally the reason we have 9 classes with unique mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone thinks swap mechanics for core ele is not that great a mechanic? OK ... find a class that has a great mechanic and play it. I mean, let's not pretend 'bad class mechanic' is some justification to get Anet to focus on ele with the hope they improve it's balance. If you have a beef with balance on ele, then don't assume changing class mechanic addresses that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most classes NEED a class mechanic to be balanced. > > > > > > > > > > OK ... but that's not the OP's complaint. OP believes swapping elements isn't a proper mechanic for ele. That's not a balance issue and the answer to that is to choose a profession with a 'proper' mechanic he liks. > > > > > > > > > > I get it ... you want to talk about balance ... OK, but just not here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the amount of variation between the skills of each atument is not enofe to call a true mechanic. > > > > > > You're going to have to explain yourself here ... the variation between the element skills are certainly different enough to make people choose them for specific things they want to do ... yet somehow allowing people to swap those elements to react to the situation they are in isn't 'true' as a mechanic? That doesn't make sense. Reacting to a situation by swapping element to access tools you need is just as much a true mechanic as any other in this game. If anything, swapping to a different 'mode' is a VERY common mechanic for many classes in this game ... and that's not a balancing issue at all. This is simply about people not liking it. If you don't like 'swapping' as a mechanic, choose a class that doesn't do it. > > > > > > I mean, the whole discussion is moot anyways ... do you think we prove the mechanic isn't true, Anet is going to just create a whole new one or something? Not a chance. Seems to me this is just a bad attempt to get Anet to focus on changing the class mechanic and hoping whatever the change is, it affects balance for it in a positive way. > > > > > > > Its like saying wepon swap of say war is an class only mechanic. Staff has 4 "fire balls" 4 "small aoe hits" 4 "utility" and 4 "big aoe" dagger the same way the atument in effect dose not play enofe roll in the class use of the wepon BUT the wepon it self plays a bigger roll in the class. Making atuments less of a mechanic then the wepon you chose to use. > > I'm not going to argue about your comparisons ... they don't make what I said ANY less true. Swapping element to access tools you need to react to whatever situation you are in is just as much a true mechanic as any other class mechanic in this game, especially since the 'swapping' concept is common mechanic many classes have. If 'swapping' is a mechanic you feel is deficient that makes the class you play not enjoyable, then pick your classes better. > The talk is core ele vs its elite spec tempest and weaver they all have atument swap but the elite spec have added mechanics. The OP was pointing this out and i agree with them. Core ele needs something more. You may not like this but your missing the point entirely that this is some how not part of balancing and its a example of apologizing for anet bad choose. By saying "play another class" is one of the worst things you can say to an ele player as most of them HAVE out of frustration with Anets bad choose with the class NOT because they do not find the ele class fun. This all stems from old balancing ideals base off of old systems that are no longer in the game. At one point ele core had an real mechanic with atument trait lines but that all got blow up by the major trait line updates (no longer the odd bay 15 point in each trait line and no more hp power etc.. from them as well) so core ele is missing a massive part of its mechanic of swap effects. Its worst when you add in eleit spec simply getting more effects from swapping both in overlodes faster swaps and duile skills.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > Hey ... you know what the answer is? Choose another profession! That's not just being glib either. That's the reason other classes exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The real interesting question is how they will continually create especs in this limited class mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > And most have the only way to balances ele is .... > > > > > > > > > > Stop there ... we aren't talking about balance here. If someone doesn't like how a class mechanic works, that's not a problem that is fixed by Anet changing how that mechanic works and it has no relation to how it's balanced. It's fixed by people choosing a class that has a mechanic they do like. This is literally the reason we have 9 classes with unique mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > Someone thinks swap mechanics for core ele is not that great a mechanic? OK ... find a class that has a great mechanic and play it. I mean, let's not pretend 'bad class mechanic' is some justification to get Anet to focus on ele with the hope they improve it's balance. If you have a beef with balance on ele, then don't assume changing class mechanic addresses that. > > > > > > > > Most classes NEED a class mechanic to be balanced. > > > > > > OK ... but that's not the OP's complaint. OP believes swapping elements isn't a proper mechanic for ele. That's not a balance issue and the answer to that is to choose a profession with a 'proper' mechanic he liks. > > > > > > I get it ... you want to talk about balance ... OK, but just not here. > > > > > > > > > > And the amount of variation between the skills of each atument is not enofe to call a true mechanic. > > You're going to have to explain yourself here ... the variation between the element skills are certainly different enough to make people choose them for specific things they want to do ... yet somehow allowing people to swap those elements to react to the situation they are in isn't 'true' as a mechanic? That doesn't make sense. Reacting to a situation by swapping element to access tools you need is just as much a true mechanic as any other in this game. If anything, swapping to a different 'mode' is a VERY common mechanic for many classes in this game ... and that's not a balancing issue at all. This is simply about people not liking it. If you don't like 'swapping' as a mechanic, choose a class that doesn't do it. > > I mean, the whole discussion is moot anyways ... do you think we prove the mechanic isn't true, Anet is going to just create a whole new one or something? Not a chance. Seems to me this is just a bad attempt to get Anet to focus on changing the class mechanic and hoping whatever the change is, it affects balance for it in a positive way. > Its like saying wepon swap of say war is an class only mechanic. Staff has 4 "fire balls" 4 "small aoe hits" 4 "utility" and 4 "big aoe" dagger the same way the atument in effect dose not play enofe roll in the class use of the wepon BUT the wepon it self plays a bigger roll in the class. Making atuments less of a mechanic then the wepon you chose to use. Its not moot at all core ele is missing effects and it needs a massive rework as a class. Its only getting worst with EoD as anet nerfs core classes to make sure the elite spec work right over and over. We as a ele community need to keep pointing this out and stop apologizing for anet bad judgment.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Hey ... you know what the answer is? Choose another profession! That's not just being glib either. That's the reason other classes exist. > > > > > > > > > > The real interesting question is how they will continually create especs in this limited class mechanic. > > > > > > > > And most have the only way to balances ele is .... > > > > > > Stop there ... we aren't talking about balance here. If someone doesn't like how a class mechanic works, that's not a problem that is fixed by Anet changing how that mechanic works and it has no relation to how it's balanced. It's fixed by people choosing a class that has a mechanic they do like. This is literally the reason we have 9 classes with unique mechanics. > > > > > > Someone thinks swap mechanics for core ele is not that great a mechanic? OK ... find a class that has a great mechanic and play it. I mean, let's not pretend 'bad class mechanic' is some justification to get Anet to focus on ele with the hope they improve it's balance. If you have a beef with balance on ele, then don't assume changing class mechanic addresses that. > > > > Most classes NEED a class mechanic to be balanced. > > OK ... but that's not the OP's complaint. OP believes swapping elements isn't a proper mechanic for ele. That's not a balance issue and the answer to that is to choose a profession with a 'proper' mechanic he liks. > > I get it ... you want to talk about balance ... OK, but just not here. > > And the amount of variation between the skills of each atument is not enofe to call a true mechanic. All made worst with tempest and weaver get an swap ontop of there own mechanic. Making core ele lacking a true mechanic. This is all very much part of balancing of a class like ele and is very much part of this talk.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Hey ... you know what the answer is? Choose another profession! That's not just being glib either. That's the reason other classes exist. > > > > > > The real interesting question is how they will continually create especs in this limited class mechanic. > > > > And most have the only way to balances ele is .... > > Stop there ... we aren't talking about balance here. If someone doesn't like how a class mechanic works, that's not a problem that is fixed by Anet changing how that mechanic works and it has no relation to how it's balanced. It's fixed by people choosing a class that has a mechanic they do like. This is literally the reason we have 9 classes with unique mechanics. > > Someone thinks swap mechanics for core ele is not that great a mechanic? OK ... find a class that has a great mechanic and play it. I mean, let's not pretend 'bad class mechanic' is some justification to get Anet to focus on ele with the hope they improve it's balance. If you have a beef with balance on ele, then don't assume changing class mechanic addresses that. Most classes NEED a class mechanic to be balanced. If core ele was on par with tempest and weaver or any other class that is dps aimed there would be no problem with the lack of its own mechanic. This is very much with in the ability of anet to fix with out even adding in such of an mechanic. This is not how the ele class is balanced vs tempest and weaver it has lost all of its identity as a class and can be seen as no longer part of that core 9 classes. In a lot of ways it never had one the ideal of atument swaping is no where near as roll defining as an simple wepon swap for classes. There is simply no magic dmg in this game so a class that very ideal of doing magic dmg from gw1 is WORTHLESS. There is just nothing there for the core ele class and could be deleted over night and nothing would changes about the game.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > Hey ... you know what the answer is? Choose another profession! That's not just being glib either. That's the reason other classes exist. > > The real interesting question is how they will continually create especs in this limited class mechanic. And most have the only way to balances ele is to play another class is NOT a way to fix any thing. Its all just P2W if that your point of view with elite spec.

Massive nerfs to wvw conversion both for boons to condi and condis to boons. There just no good reason in wvw even spvp where you can have every condi and boon type just because you have an conversion effect.

> @"cgMatt.5162" said: > Please don't nerf, this class keeps condi meta at bay and no one wants that. PoP realty needs to not have the strong boons as a conversion at the same time corruption should not have the strong condis as a chose too. Strong boons / condis should be class aimed not on a general effect. Eng on its own with kits are able to keep condi meta at bay.

Its funny ppl who wvw so much know where every thing is even though the walls are not showing up. Anet you have a real group of ppl playing the game every day for a game type please fix this soon.

> @"lLobo.7960" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > I think weaver rewards you more for staying in an atument then say tempest as you get more dmg for going doable atument meaning you have to stay in that atument longer then an tempest when waiting for overloads (sadly the overload it self is not a ture reward for staying in that atument just an added effect.) > > The buff to dmg for dual attuning (and the buff to condi dmg for different attunement) are very short. If you stay on that attunement you quickly loose the buff and it will take 2 attunement swaps to recover it (swap to new attunement, swap to double attunement). So to keep the buff you need to swap attunement constantly, to have 100% uptime, you pretty much have to swap as soon as possible. > 0s - dual attuned (fire/fire), bonus triggered, 4s to change attunement, > 4s - swap to new atunnment (air/fire), 4s to change again, > 8s - swap to dual attune (air/air) refreshing the bonus. > You need to use 2 attunments to pull this out, as trying to get back to the same single attunement you started would take another 4s. This can be improved a bit with Arcane trailine and alacrity. > So yea, Weaver rewards fast and constant attunement swap. > Tempest meanwhile, needs to stay in that attunement at least 6 secs to get the overload, and then its locked out of that attunment for a long time, so if you are specializing in something you mostly "camp" that attunement... Fire tempest (fire/arcane/tempest, or fire/earth/tempest for solo open world) camps fire all the time... Fresh air tempest only swaps attunement to bypass the longer overload CD, but it mostly "camps" air... Healing tempest mostly "camps" water, with the odd dip out for auras or other buffs... > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > Core ele is the only version of ele that was true 2-3 atuments only though trait lines. Weaver and tempest both get use of the other atuments skill due to there added effects. Core ele got every thing from its trait line and trait lines alone. > Well... all ele specs have 4 attunements, but core ele is the only one that can (in theory) improve 3 of them... semantics really... > The issue is, there isn't much of a reason to do so (most game modes push you to specialize), and there isn't much a way to do so well enough. > If you want to do dmg, you'll go fire/air/X. X could be an elite spec (fresh air tempest, dps weaver). Core could be fire/air/arcane, or fire/air/water, but those are very inferior to the other options, mostly due to the power of overloads, dual skills, and the dps bonuses of e-spec traitlines. > > For core ele to shine due to its ability to slot 3 elemental traitlines, those traitlines need to have a lot more synergy. > The anasers are one in the same if a weaver swaps its main atument it loses the effect of that trait line witch is a massive dmg lost or healing lost meaning them staying in doable atument is more effective for there 5 big hits like core and tempest. The reward is massive for weaver to stay in doable atuments most of the time only jumping out of it just to reapply the dmg buff. Core ele is about its atument line traits most then tempest and weaver as it can have 3 atument lines vs the elite spec having only 2 at most. The thing is the way this game is balanced arone gear more then any thing else your not seeing your core ele healing and dpsing at the same becuse of the need for power dmg effect AND healing power. So by letting core ele get all of the atument trait lines it is in makes it more of an atument class then say tempest and weaver.

Power creep bleed being the worst condi with no added effect is a very good example of the other condis getting massively power creeped.

> @"Smoosh.2718" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less. > > Does that mean I have to wear the trenchcoat now? > > Buuut ultimately you are right here, all classes health should be rebalanced to a simular level and their skills/traits balanced around the new medium. the concept worked back in 2013, however lesser so now with the newer additions to the game. I am all for removing armor classes and let ppl use any skin they want. More room for fashion wars and more room for gem store skins. Over all it would make balancing easier as you could let classes with high hp / high armor now get more dps if there hp / armor where at the same level as other classes. It could be more of an balancing of range and cd and utility then an balancing of hp / def vs dmg.

> @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > > > > > > I think people are not reading OPs question, or not understanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thread is about nerfs that you were mad about but **turned out to be justified**. > > > > > > > Not nerfs that you wish were never implemented. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most ppl think these nerfs should of never happens even if the op wants to be confusing in the way they are miss leading the tittle. Read what ppl are saying it is the opposite of what the op is saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs are soo bad that ppl are seeking out any topic on it and commenting. By no means dose it have to agree with the op. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but by your own admission then, every single comment in this thread is off topic. :sweat_smile: > > > > > I know they think they should have never happened and are posting out of outrage. But that's not what OP asked, and you even siad it yourself, it's the opposite of what OP asked. Btw, OP isn't saying anythign, OP asked a question. OP asked if there is some nerf that, after the dust has settled, people thought it's a good nerf. > > > > > > > > No its not though having a different view on something dose not make it off topic its just the opposite. We do not want topic to just be yes i agree over and over. What the point of talking if you do nothing more then agree. > > > > > > > > The 2020 nerfs (that spilled over to 2021) where some of the worst nerfs in the game and most incomplete. > > > > > > The thread isn't the "yes i agree" type though, and you're completely saying things unrelated to the thread. That's off topic. > > > And so is this conversation so, write whatever you want i guess. :tongue: > > > > Yet no one is thinking the way you are they are all saying the nerfs are bad and point out why they are bad so... the thread is no longer what you want (as your not the op i have no ideal why you would think you know what the op wanted for all you know it could of been here a thread about nerfs but this is my view on things). > > > @"knite.1542" said: > > *Are there any nerfs that you guys thought were uncalled for*, **but after playing with the nerf for awhile you realized how busted the skill was?** > > > > I have a few but the biggest one for me personally is Holographic shockwave. The range on that skill used to be insane lol. > > The bolded part is what OP wanted, it's not really rocket science. :tongue: It's just reading. > OP asked does anyone think that some nerfs were uncalled for, but later realized that they are good because the skill was too busted and a nerf was needed. > > Yet everyone is just complaining about nerfs that they think were uncalled for and how it was bad and "you should revert the skill" and such. > > I don't know what to tell you, if people can misunderstand a simple sentence then idk. I wonder if people even read the sentence to the end or they got to the "uncalled for" part and just started typing angrily. :tongue: > > I guess we can wait on @"knite.1542" to explain what he meant. But he hasn't responded since the original post so whatever. Then he would need to changes the tittle of this threat :tongue: or maybe you just are not the op and you trying to talk for him is wrong :tongue: . At the end of the day :tongue: your not realty saying any thing to add to this :tongue: and at best your simply trying to hid points ppl are making :tongue: .

> @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > Where are they? They used to come out at the end of each PvP season. We have been stuck in this stale meta for such a long time. I think June was the last time I saw balance notes. These are my favorite notes to read. They change traits, add new traits, replace old ones. They also address power creep. ANET said they would be visible about these things yet we haven't heard a word about them. Are they just putting all their eggs in one basket with EoD cause that would be a very unwise thing to do... I want answers ? > > Pls...this forum has been crying "Power Creep" since the game inception....as long as somebody dies to something....it's always powercreep The power creep crying is about core classes getting nerf to nothing so the elite spec. are balanced kind of. That is the def of powercreep and pay to win for pvp games.

> @"AreeSoothsayer.1068" said: > I'm a simple fellow. Remove the timer from the elementals. Say summon 2 lessers and 1 normal. They stay up until defeated. Keeping track of their cooldown to keep 3 up has a slowly increasing time of only 2 up, because of the cast time of the spell itself. Treat them like the NEcro abominations. Ya that would be nice to see it would give ele a relaibitly frost field out side of its weapons and realty give ele as a class effects out side of its wepon set that they are very much locked to. Sadly ele is less of an mage in this game and more of an specialist class. Something never got why most of what makes ele and ele comes from its wepon not from its utility.

A pure condi aura support (non healing) tempest i been having fun with i am not sure how it would work in a small group but it seems ok for bigger groups. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGwEsEmpMBWDzjxwKxxayttB-zVRYBRFSRMS6qHimFgqZR/RL-w This is not comply my ideal though i did mod it from the old version.

> @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > > > > I think people are not reading OPs question, or not understanding. > > > > > > > > > > The thread is about nerfs that you were mad about but **turned out to be justified**. > > > > > Not nerfs that you wish were never implemented. > > > > > > > > Most ppl think these nerfs should of never happens even if the op wants to be confusing in the way they are miss leading the tittle. Read what ppl are saying it is the opposite of what the op is saying. > > > > > > > > The nerfs are soo bad that ppl are seeking out any topic on it and commenting. By no means dose it have to agree with the op. > > > > > > Yes, but by your own admission then, every single comment in this thread is off topic. :sweat_smile: > > > I know they think they should have never happened and are posting out of outrage. But that's not what OP asked, and you even siad it yourself, it's the opposite of what OP asked. Btw, OP isn't saying anythign, OP asked a question. OP asked if there is some nerf that, after the dust has settled, people thought it's a good nerf. > > > > No its not though having a different view on something dose not make it off topic its just the opposite. We do not want topic to just be yes i agree over and over. What the point of talking if you do nothing more then agree. > > > > The 2020 nerfs (that spilled over to 2021) where some of the worst nerfs in the game and most incomplete. > > The thread isn't the "yes i agree" type though, and you're completely saying things unrelated to the thread. That's off topic. > And so is this conversation so, write whatever you want i guess. :tongue: Yet no one is thinking the way you are they are all saying the nerfs are bad and point out why they are bad so... the thread is no longer what you want (as your not the op i have no ideal why you would think you know what the op wanted for all you know it could of been here a thread about nerfs but this is my view on things).