STOP buffing necro in wvw

[scerevisiae.1972]

I main necro and i think this it's just plain insanity to buff shades and wells in WVW.

 

It's super frustrating that for years now, commanders etc only want people to bring their necro/FB or GTFO.

 

the only fair way to do scourge fixes IMO is:

* remove large shade, replace wit something else

* AOE on small shades 180 radius, 3 targets

* AOE on necro 240 radius, 5 targets

 

Also I think there should be a visual indication of when boons are stripped so that people can see that reaper/mesmer are very close to scourge in strip capability so that scourge isn't seen as being so necessary.

 

 

[CrimsonNeonite.1048]

@"Lightning Xv.8705" said:

> In the twitch stream yesterday CmC admitted the shade change had a bit of an oversite and they didn't tweak target caps so it will be hot fixed probably the same week.

>

 

Yep, hopefully the target cap will be lowered by the earliest Thursday, but that's two or so days with the 'new' shades and maybe the wells cooldowns could be reverted back for wvw.

 

 

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Lightning Xv.8705" said:

> In the twitch stream yesterday CmC admitted the shade change had a bit of an oversite and they didn't tweak target caps so it will be hot fixed probably the same week.

>

> Love how people kitten about scourge yet when players ask what to play in wvw people point them to uhhhh oh yea SCOURGE. Even on these boards hurr durr play scourge ez and still 9 out of 10 you see in zergs can't dps for kitten. You guys are a riot.

>

>

> Also in the stream he also mentioned dragon banner nerf, siege damage, and warclaw(finally).

 

The skills team should not be able to touch ANYTHING WvW or PvP related without CmC's approval. They have proven time and time again they do not understand these modes. I have no idea why CmC has to react to their changes, why are they allowed such freedom?

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Lightning Xv.8705" said:

> > In the twitch stream yesterday CmC admitted the shade change had a bit of an oversite and they didn't tweak target caps so it will be hot fixed probably the same week.

> >

> > Love how people kitten about scourge yet when players ask what to play in wvw people point them to uhhhh oh yea SCOURGE. Even on these boards hurr durr play scourge ez and still 9 out of 10 you see in zergs can't dps for kitten. You guys are a riot.

> >

> >

> > Also in the stream he also mentioned dragon banner nerf, siege damage, and warclaw(finally).

>

> The skills team should not be able to touch ANYTHING WvW or PvP related without CmC's approval...I have no idea why CmC has to react to their changes, why are they allowed such freedom?

 

Direct quote: "We didn't get that change in for this update initially..which is...entirely blame me for that, that's entirely my fault that it was not prepared ahead of time but I will plan to get that into a hotfix". Maybe you're getting angry at the wrong people because you want someone to blame and it cant be CMC for some reason..

[Shiyo.3578]

It's not his fault the skills team gets to put their changes into PvP and WvW for absolutely no reason. Any change they do, should absolutely not go into WvW or PvP without first asking CmC if it's ok. The skills teams changes shouldn't default to "all game modes" - that's why the game was horrible.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> It's not his fault the skills team gets to put their changes into PvP and WvW for absolutely no reason. Any change they do, should absolutely not go into WvW or PvP without first asking CmC if it's ok. The skills teams changes shouldn't default to "all game modes" - that's why the game was horrible.

 

Watch the stream in its entirety. Answers your question and again dial the emotion back and re-evaluate where the blame is. He is fully aware and part of the decision making for these changes.

[SWI.4127]

What makes you so sure that it wasn't him who overlooked the change in the first place? Why else would he say it's his own fault? Is he not part of the skills team or something? (genuine question, not trying to make a point).

[Atticus.7194]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Atticus.7194" said:

> > > @"GummyBearSummoner.7941" said:

> > > Why do people get upset when necro finally gets something good?

> >

> > Finally?? Have you played playing scourge in the last 4 years in WvW?? They've dominated the mode to the point they actually broke the meta for YEARS.

>

> PoF (hence scourge) came out in 22nd of September, 2017. Bit hard for the spec to... Dominate for 4 years.

 

Oh shit 3 years and 9 months, that is SUPER RELEVANT.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> What makes you so sure that it wasn't him who overlooked the change in the first place? Why else would he say it's his own fault? Is he not part of the skills team or something? (genuine question, not trying to make a point).

 

You're not missing anything, the confusion is valid. For some reason, some of the players view cal as some balance Messiah.. Despite evidence to the contrary.

[Lightning Xv.8705]

> @"CrimsonNeonite.1048" said:

> Yep, hopefully the target cap will be lowered by Thursday, but that's two or so days with the 'new' shades and maybe the wells cooldowns could be reverted back for wvw.

 

We lived through a week of Ele going super saiyan and meteors nuking people from orbit. I think we can handle a little extra scourge **melee** pressure for a couple days. I don't think the well cd reduction is going to do a whole hell of a lot. Stationary pulsing fields are easy to not take the full damage from(unless you get immob spammed then rip). I'd rather take a coordinated well strike over say a rev bomb. The revs will drop me but the wells I have a chance to get out of.

 

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> It's not his fault the skills team gets to put their changes into PvP and WvW for absolutely no reason. Any change they do, should absolutely not go into WvW or PvP without first asking CmC if it's ok. The skills teams changes shouldn't default to "all game modes" - that's why the game was horrible.

 

When they change how a skill functions at its core they change it in every game mode so it's uniform and you don't have the issue of changing game mode and it basically be like playing a totally different class. Those changes are the only ones we get that cross every mode. Otherwise its a numbers tweak(skill split) and majority of the things we get are that. The original shade nerf was a result of wvw and from what I remember kinda screwed over pve. That rework wasn't necessary, they easily could have skill split it like they will do this time around to make it less oppressive in wvw and still keep its function the same in other modes.

 

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Atticus.7194" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Atticus.7194" said:

> > > > @"GummyBearSummoner.7941" said:

> > > > Why do people get upset when necro finally gets something good?

> > >

> > > Finally?? Have you played playing scourge in the last 4 years in WvW?? They've dominated the mode to the point they actually broke the meta for YEARS.

> >

> > PoF (hence scourge) came out in 22nd of September, 2017. Bit hard for the spec to... Dominate for 4 years.

>

> Oh kitten 3 years and 9 months, that is SUPER RELEVANT.

 

Bud, I personally live in 2020. Do you somehow live in 2021?

You may wanna recheck that math of yours

[Warlord.9074]

Everyone is complaining about the shade revert like that was the only bad decision.

It's not like making wells baseline, giving them a free grand master basically does any harm.

It's not like giving them permanent barrier in wvw, if they ran bloodmagic in wvw because you can never be overhealed in zergs.

It's not like giving Necros permanent quickness in WvW zergs is bad either.

These changes are literally the **worst** thing ANET coud of done to WVW and it take them 6 months to do this.

So essentially you are now faster, unkillable, can spam wells and shades all over, and you have even more boonrip and perma quickness.

Great patch. Necro needed this. WvW needed this.

[primatos.5413]

Dawdler once said something like EvERyBoDY On CoM oR GtFO oF thE BoRDer, wE nEeD mORe fIReBraNDs!!!111!!

Now it's going to be more like EvERyBoDY On CoM oR GtFO oF thE BoRDer, wE nEeD mORe NecRoS!!!111!! Or both O.o

[Mil.3562]

If Scourge is going to get their twin Shades back, can we have anti-toxin rune reverted back to its original state? You know, 2 vs 2... * ahem *

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> I could understand if the sand shades got a nerf on top of affecting the necromancer themselves. The inability to affect yourself with the shade is a huge hit to ease of use.

 

Anet scared me with the scourge changes, but they are going to check the number of targets, imagige the more shades u have the less targets each shade hits.

 

IMO shades and themed scourges should be arround condi control >_>, FB would purify condis into burn(while removing lots of core burn traits), etc.

imnagine if the shades on caster would just abosrb condis on scourge or alies and would copy them towards the range shade, or convert each condi to barrier.

 

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Tuna Bandit.3786" said:

> > The problem isn't so much the necro or scourge itself, it's the stacking.

> > Have 10 of them in a squad and everything melts without downstate.

> >

> > They should really fix the stacking, which they will refuse to do.

> >

> > The only other solution, rename WvW to Scourge vs Scourge.

>

> Have you lost your mind scorge is a problem at all points its a support class that can top dps and every that you could want from a dps with support skills. Its also has no non healing state likes the core necor and reaper. Every thing is wrong with the scorge class.

 

That's why i never liked how scourge was implemented, in its vanila form itsm way to much for the game, it can be somewhat dificult to balance it and mantain its initial gameplay ideia(game overloaded with aoe fields).

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

Stop referring to the Scourge issues as Necros please, there are 3 classes Core, Reaper and Scourge and we all know which one is the bloody problem! Scourge has been a disaster for WvW since it's onset and has fundamentally turned WvW into nothing but a zerg fest which has pretty much ruined it for most other classes.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:

> Stop referring to the Scourge issues as Necros please, there are 3 classes Core, Reaper and Scourge and we all know which one is the bloody problem! Scourge has been a disaster for WvW since it's onset and has fundamentally turned WvW into nothing but a zerg fest which has pretty much ruined it for most other classes.

 

The issue are the shade mechanics when stacked and outgouing heals from heavy healing power scourge m8 be strong IMO, the wells changes can be somewhat okish i guess, notr that fb's are receiving more blocks and some wells are now blockable.

[nthmetal.9652]

If we have these shade changes, in order ESPECIALLY for melee classes to still be useful, we do need further changes to complement the scourge changes. If it is truly the intention to buff scourges, the result will be that we have more AoEs. That by itself is difficult enough, as in the past WvW servers have shown not to be able to handle this kind of mechanic very well. These AoEs bring additional fear and chill and possible cripple and other hard or soft-cc conditions. Now combine this change with reduced stability across the board, it will lead to melee being derived of options to act, especially if we have size differences between zergs.

 

So if this is the way to go, can we please also buff stability and resistance again, to make up for this change? I know, we're turning in circles, it's not where I'd like to see things move, but these are the consequences we need if we're to head down this path.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"Galmac.4680" said:

> Nope, Necro isn't ANsts favorite class. We got nerfs in EVERY recent balance patch, and all are screaming here as we got finally a little change revert. Our AOEs are nerfed and necros can't spam that amount of conditions as long time before. You complain about groups of 20 necros, but have you met a group of 20 thiefs, rangers, mesmer, revs? Imagine that and think about that.

 

I would laugh at all of them because stacking these classes does more harm then good.

 

Stacking Necros makes them stronger.

[Faccina.5091]

permaroot

permahide

5k tick burn

9001 speed

permacleanse

permastun'nknockdown

etc...

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"CrimsonNeonite.1048" said:

> but that's two or so days with the 'new' shades and maybe the wells cooldowns could be reverted back for wvw.

 

That only happens on any day ending with 'y'. Seriously, name me an update where ANET released a single patch on the Tuesday and was done until the next release.

 

No seriously, I'm very curious: has that ever happened? Because at least in my time here, each update is followed by 3-4 hotfix patches before Friday - last update alone there were two hotfixes, both deployed on separate days at around 5pm EST, kicking folks out of WvW.

 

 

[nthmetal.9652]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"Galmac.4680" said:

> > Nope, Necro isn't ANsts favorite class. We got nerfs in EVERY recent balance patch, and all are screaming here as we got finally a little change revert. Our AOEs are nerfed and necros can't spam that amount of conditions as long time before. You complain about groups of 20 necros, but have you met a group of 20 thiefs, rangers, mesmer, revs? Imagine that and think about that.

 

And how often do you meet a group of 20 thiefs, rangers, mesmers, revs?

How often do you meet a group of 20 scourges? Hint: look at the composition of any 50 man zerg.

 

And now ask yourself why that is.

 

Even now, even _after_ all the nerfs, the ideal squad group in WvW is:

1 FB

1 Healer (scrapper or Ele)

1 rev (sometimes replaced by 1 Spb)

and .... **2 (!) scourges**.

That is **before** the incoming buffs.

 

Maybe the problem isn't every SINGLE scourge, maybe their mechanics would be fine, but the stuff they do stacks nicely and combines nicely.

There are clear limits to buffs you can place, creating strongly diminishing returns on overstacking FBs, Healscrappers or Eles. There are no clear diminishing returns on stacking necros / damaging AoEs. Damaging, persistent AoEs (as in those, that stay for a while and/or pulse). And in the future, damaging, moving persistent AoEs.

 

Maybe the problem should be addressed by fixing the core mechanic. But as we don't seem to be able to do that, we have to work on the only thing we can: The classes.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> It's super frustrating that for years now, commanders etc only want people to bring their necro/FB or GTFO.

 

I have never been refused entry on a Hammer Herald, Medi-Scrapper or Support Tempest. Not once. Ever. I've been asked to bring one over the other depending on what the group needed (DPS vs. sustain vs. sneak gyro) but, don't create a narrative that the only way to gain entry to a squad is by playing Scourge or FB because it is factually false.

 

> @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> Also I think there should be a visual indication of when boons are stripped so that people can see that reaper/mesmer are very close to scourge in strip capability so that scourge isn't seen as being so necessary.

>

 

ArcDPS?

 

 

[nthmetal.9652]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> I have never been refused entry on a Hammer Herald, Medi-Scrapper or Support Tempest. Not once. Ever. I've been asked to bring one over the other depending on what the group needed (DPS vs. sustain vs. sneak gyro) but, don't create a narrative that the only way to gain entry to a squad is by playing Scourge or FB because it is factually false.

 

That is, because you are nice person maybe :) Or maybe not focused as muich on optimization. Other commanders do not think the same way. You might even be limited in your choice of guilds to join, because demand for other classes isn't as high.

That's not to say it is impossible. But it is easier.

 

> > @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> > Also I think there should be a visual indication of when boons are stripped so that people can see that reaper/mesmer are very close to scourge in strip capability so that scourge isn't seen as being so necessary.

 

Even if other classes come close, scourge does not only strip. They _corrupt_. And depending on the build they deal damage while doing so. They CC (at least "soft" CC, though honestly, fear is a very impactful condition). They limit healing (poison is quite effective).

 

I do strip more on a spellbreaker, but in order to be able to sustain that, I have to give up on the idea of dealing damage. For one reason because I need different stats in order to survive, which limit my ability to deal damage. For the other reason that my CC skills do not deal damage. And I can only do it in melee.

I have seen mesmers strip quite effectively, however what do they give up for that, and what could you take alternatively to a mesmer, and what would you gain for your whole zerg, if you did?

 

Scourges are very effective and they are quite versatile in zergs. They just bring too much good to the table; few other classes do that. FB is another such example.

 

If it were my choice: Since Scourge does all of these:

* strip

* and convert conditions

* deal hindering conditions

* provide area denial

* and deal damage

... I would focus the class down on the corruption and area denial mechanic and giving them the same treatment warriors got. If you do area denial, corruption and (soft) CC, you don't get to deal any notable damage anymore.

If you wanna deal damage, or if you wanna heal / provide barrier, build differently. You don't get the whole area denial/condi/strip stuff.

 

Now we have a focused role for WvW zerg fights.

Obviously that approach can only be taken for WvW. It doesn't work in PvE and PvP. So the mechanics need to be split off for WvW. Thus making room for other classes in WvW zergs.

 

[Excursion.9752]

Just ANET Making Shades Great Again!

I only play necro in WvW. I did before the last patch and I will continue after the next patch.

 

Necros have tons of AoE skills and when you get them in large groups whoa buddy... There are already so many AoE's on the ground what does it matter if there able to put a few more out. In all honesty if the group that you are running with does not have a scrapper clearing your conditions your doing it wrong. Meta is Meta for a reason just because your not okay with it does not mean it is broken.

 

I could care less about the shade triggering on my body. I guess it will help with sustain but I've never had a problem with that even after the last patch. Most fights start out in Pirate ship anyway and most shades are placed in the initial engagement. It could possibly be helpful when you are portal/invis bombed because you can barrier the the group but this mostly happened anyway due to the shades being dropped at the feet when this happens.

 

I have this thing I do where I don't step in the red circles unless we are pushing as a group. It helps with spreading out the damage through my subgroup and it definitely helps when you are getting the cleanses. Of course I am being petty here but seriously most , not all, aoe's can be avoided if you are careful.

 

Best way to stop a Scourge Zergling is to not let them get back to their Zerg. Because you get one alone its like Amazon just overnighted you an express bag. Some servers do a really good job of this.