Pyromancer's Puissance change

[Pocky.3159]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Antipode.7830" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"Antipode.7830" said:

> > > > So wait, this is a no icd fire trait, yeah? This feels more like a small scale weaver trait than a tempest trait. I haven’t played with it yet, but this looks like an ele take on Phalanx Strength, and I could see a weird feedback loop with a warrior running PS in small scale WvW or something, where they keep feeding you might to use to burn and re-feed them might for the healing and endurance regen. They make you burst more/harder, and you heal them more, and you don’t have to actually run anything other than what weaver tends to run in WvW for this to actually work out half-way decently.

> > > >

> > > > Just a weird thought.

> > >

> > > I don't think generating the 10 stack might is a problem for fire weavers. It's very easy to stack that much between the might from PP, combo blasts and fire shield transmutes. You're limited by how quickly you can rotate in and out of fire.

> > >

> > > The bigger problem is that the damage output of this skill isn't remarkable at all. It's just a nerf that adds questionable group utility at the expense of solo play.

> >

> > Aaahhh, I see. Well that sucks then. Feels like ele combo ability has been a target for a while. Sad to see it just getting worse and worse.

>

> Here's a video where you can see it in action pretty well. I am alternating between fire and other elements so that I'm only out of fire for a few seconds at a time. So, it's about what you expect. When I rotate into fire I quickly stack up to 20-25 might. When I rotate out, I lose 10 stacks and bounce around between 10-15 stacks. You're still maintaining might stacks while outside of fire, so the incentive is still there to combo for might.

>

>

>

> The problem is that this doesn't feel interesting or impactful. I always have the might to maximize the effect and I can't really afford to camp fire as a weaver. Basically, I'm going to swap attunements and I'm going to lose 10 might stacks. It's passive and the benefit I'm really supposed to gain out of this only applies to groups. If there were some sort of additional interaction and effect to justify losing 10 might and make this feel less passive, I might feel differently.

 

This is basically what I was expecting. Its gonna be a rough time getting used to this XD

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Pocky.3159" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Antipode.7830" said:

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > @"Antipode.7830" said:

> > > > > So wait, this is a no icd fire trait, yeah? This feels more like a small scale weaver trait than a tempest trait. I haven’t played with it yet, but this looks like an ele take on Phalanx Strength, and I could see a weird feedback loop with a warrior running PS in small scale WvW or something, where they keep feeding you might to use to burn and re-feed them might for the healing and endurance regen. They make you burst more/harder, and you heal them more, and you don’t have to actually run anything other than what weaver tends to run in WvW for this to actually work out half-way decently.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just a weird thought.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think generating the 10 stack might is a problem for fire weavers. It's very easy to stack that much between the might from PP, combo blasts and fire shield transmutes. You're limited by how quickly you can rotate in and out of fire.

> > > >

> > > > The bigger problem is that the damage output of this skill isn't remarkable at all. It's just a nerf that adds questionable group utility at the expense of solo play.

> > >

> > > Aaahhh, I see. Well that sucks then. Feels like ele combo ability has been a target for a while. Sad to see it just getting worse and worse.

> >

> > Here's a video where you can see it in action pretty well. I am alternating between fire and other elements so that I'm only out of fire for a few seconds at a time. So, it's about what you expect. When I rotate into fire I quickly stack up to 20-25 might. When I rotate out, I lose 10 stacks and bounce around between 10-15 stacks. You're still maintaining might stacks while outside of fire, so the incentive is still there to combo for might.

> >

> >

> >

> > The problem is that this doesn't feel interesting or impactful. I always have the might to maximize the effect and I can't really afford to camp fire as a weaver. Basically, I'm going to swap attunements and I'm going to lose 10 might stacks. It's passive and the benefit I'm really supposed to gain out of this only applies to groups. If there were some sort of additional interaction and effect to justify losing 10 might and make this feel less passive, I might feel differently.

>

> This is basically what I was expecting. Its gonna be a rough time getting used to this XD

 

It shouldn't. At least, as far as I can tell. There's no real strategy to employ here. You'll still rotate attunements because camping fire is worse than losing 10 stacks of might and you'll still combo for might because 3 stacks of might is still 3 stacks of might. This doesn't really change anything. It's just kind of...but why? Especially when you consider the double punch to the collective nuts of solo players with the removal of lava font on down in tandem!

[fuzzyp.6295]

I've enjoyed the change so far but I don't really think its like a stellar trait. I'd probably just want them to change the whole supportive nature of sharing might and buff the range of the fire explosion or the damage/burn stacks a bit instead.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Antipode.7830" said:

> So wait, this is a no icd fire trait, yeah? This feels more like a small scale weaver trait than a tempest trait. I haven’t played with it yet, but this looks like an ele take on Phalanx Strength, and I could see a weird feedback loop with a warrior running PS in small scale WvW or something, where they keep feeding you might to use to burn and re-feed them might for the healing and endurance regen. They make you burst more/harder, and you heal them more, and you don’t have to actually run anything other than what weaver tends to run in WvW for this to actually work out half-way decently.

>

> Just a weird thought.

 

Warrior doesnt lose his own might when he plays ps. What build is going to use this? You can already play tempest if you want to mightshare which is also much better at it. A dps build doesnt want to lose might, ever! Iam even pretty sure the kill aliom posted here would have been faster with persisting flames instead of this.

Could have been good in wvsw for staff weavers so they could share might like heralds can. This change just kills it for solo play while also being questionable in group play at best.

Does it even work in a spvp build? 10 might are 300power/condi damage. thats a lot of stats to sacrifice for a procc.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Antipode.7830" said:

> > So wait, this is a no icd fire trait, yeah? This feels more like a small scale weaver trait than a tempest trait. I haven’t played with it yet, but this looks like an ele take on Phalanx Strength, and I could see a weird feedback loop with a warrior running PS in small scale WvW or something, where they keep feeding you might to use to burn and re-feed them might for the healing and endurance regen. They make you burst more/harder, and you heal them more, and you don’t have to actually run anything other than what weaver tends to run in WvW for this to actually work out half-way decently.

> >

> > Just a weird thought.

>

> Warrior doesnt lose his own might when he plays ps. What build is going to use this? You can already play tempest if you want to mightshare which is also much better at it. A dps build doesnt want to lose might, ever! Iam even pretty sure the kill aliom posted here would have been faster with persisting flames instead of this.

> Could have been good in wvsw for staff weavers so they could share might like heralds can. This change just kills it for solo play while also being questionable in group play at best.

> Does it even work in a spvp build? 10 might are 300power/condi damage. thats a lot of stats to sacrifice for a procc.

 

Don't think it will work with Staff Weavers in WvW, Persisting flames is better,

 

As for PvP, I can see it working with Tempest better but even then, Blinding Ashes is better.

[Zeesh.7286]

Yea Persisting flames is better in WvW because not only 10% bonus but we are practically spamming lava font and Earth/fire dual attack because of the stupid projectile reflects working on fireballs in zergs. It also helps when Lava font lasts longer when blobs and people are running here there everywhere over the fields not giving a shit because its an ele attack and not a necro well

 

I tried running it on tempest in Spvp.. but nah, the blind feels better at times because I feel I can jump with fire overload safely and they will miss at least one bursty hit on my weak ass with the blind

 

I wonder if someone can test this is fractals and PVE though I think Fire sword 2 and dagger 4 fire fields are enough to give the full 10 stacks for Persisting flames and give better DPS boost with that 10% than the extra 2-3k hits you will make in and out of fire attunement as the 10% bonus will also work with Air autos, quantum strike, FGSm other skills etc.

[steki.1478]

> @"Zeesh.7286" said:

 

> I wonder if someone can test this is fractals and PVE though I think Fire sword 2 and dagger 4 fire fields are enough to give the full 10 stacks for Persisting flames and give better DPS boost with that 10% than the extra 2-3k hits you will make in and out of fire attunement as the 10% bonus will also work with Air autos, quantum strike, FGSm other skills etc.

 

Dagger 4 only gives 1 stack because it damages only when someone passes through it. Sword 2 does not give 10 stacks on single target without alacrity (and possibly FA/unravel).

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

In fractal it's a very short improvement for sword/dagger : sword field last only 4 sec for 6-7sec CD, and ring of fire only trigger the bonus effect once; so you have only 6% dmg, after 5seconds with this two skills, plus it means you have to start with fire/fire, and broke or change your rotation if you want the 10% fast enough and maintain it. It's very very low dps increase for fractals.

Symbolic Avenger, from guard, works better as you have 10% dmg after 3sec. Dh and SB can still burst and DPS twice the numbers without gimmicks like precast FGS, staff meteor shower etc.

 

Otherwise : it's "better" if you play staff ... but as you mention, it won't change the fact half your skills are reflected, lavafont deals zero damage and meteor still clunky. And it added already +2sec to field field, there is no improvement this side, actually you lost your "lesser lava font" that lasted for 8seconds and pulse more damage than lava font.

The suicide elem + vapor + portal or door; was actually effective against rams etc.

[Nephalem.8921]

I wouldnt say its a minor improvement in fractals. Not every boss is skorvald and even on skorvald you can maintain a high amount of stacks after first phase. It was also intended to have a ramp up so the crazy burst doesnt get more crazy.

In which world does dh outburst or outdps weaver in fractals? Weaver should burst way harder even without meteor precast. unscathed contender build just doesnt really work unless you want to grind for perfect kills.

[Zeesh.7286]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

 

> Otherwise : it's "better" if you play staff ... but as you mention, it won't change the fact half your skills are reflected, lavafont deals zero damage and meteor still clunky. And it added already +2sec to field field, there is no improvement this side, actually you lost your "lesser lava font" that lasted for 8seconds and pulse more damage than lava font.

 

Yea they really must buff back Meteor and lavafont damage. We didn't need this change in Fire traits. We needed a buff on the staff skills and damage itself. Not via screwing over the fire traits the way they did. The downstate lavafont removal has ruined open world PVE for me. When I said that persisting flames is better, I meant its current form seems more useful to than Puissance for WvW. Not that the changes itself were better. They've completely ignore what was asked (like staff buffs, arcane line work) No one even asked for these reworks. Yet here we are...

 

[supreme.3602]

> @"Zeesh.7286" said:

> > @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

>

> > Otherwise : it's "better" if you play staff ... but as you mention, it won't change the fact half your skills are reflected, lavafont deals zero damage and meteor still clunky. And it added already +2sec to field field, there is no improvement this side, actually you lost your "lesser lava font" that lasted for 8seconds and pulse more damage than lava font.

>

> Yea they really must buff back Meteor and lavafont damage. We didn't need this change in Fire traits. We needed a buff on the staff skills and damage itself. Not via screwing over the fire traits the way they did. The downstate lavafont removal has ruined open world PVE for me. When I said that persisting flames is better, I meant its current form seems more useful to than Puissance for WvW. Not that the changes itself were better. They've completely ignore what was asked (like staff buffs, arcane line work) No one even asked for these reworks. Yet here we are...

>

 

So true. Since all these nerfs happened, I switched to support scrapper full-time for WvW. Only a madman/woman would torture themselves on ele nowadays, be it damage or support. There's no point in playing a class which receives little to no love in comparison to the others. Waste of time, in my opinion. Just forget ele exists and find enjoyment in something else.

[MarzAttakz.9608]

> @"Dahir.4158" said:

> Just forget ele exists and find enjoyment in something else.

 

To hear you say that makes me sad, Broski. Where did that bundle of positivity when I played with you in EXG go?

I can't bring myself to drop Lhylyth, she's been my girl from the very beginning.

 

 

[supreme.3602]

> @"MarzAttakz.9608" said:

> > @"Dahir.4158" said:

> > Just forget ele exists and find enjoyment in something else.

>

> To hear you say that makes me sad, Broski. Where did that bundle of positivity when I played with you in EXG go?

> I can't bring myself to drop Lhylyth, she's been my girl from the very beginning.

>

>

 

Honestly? I lost all faith and positivity in ele when Meteor Shower and Lava Font got nerfed to the ground. It all started going wrong from that point onwards.

 

Take Obsidian Flesh, for example. It was once a very crucial skill used to survive tough situations, but now look at it. You're locked out of other skills while using it, plus, it wont even activate over other skills in use. It doesn't take priority or anything. It's just a shadow of its former self, which is a big shame, really. Don't even get me started on stupid trait changes, either.

 

Sub par damage, sub par skills and sub par support. I'm done with it.

[Shiyo.3578]

Agreed, staff being nerfed was when they killed this class.

Then focus nerf.

Then focus nerf AGAIN due to a SUPPORT build without touching said SUPPORT build AT ALL.

Then mist form nerf, again, due to a support build, while ignoring the support build.

 

There's very blatant bias against this class and it needs to stop.

[Auburner.6945]

Elementalist is now support tempest only in PvP/WvW... the high risk staff is now laughable, roaming builds now can't stack might, and Open World players can't stack might or clutch res from Lava Tomb.

 

While support tempest does a great job at its role, build diversity is dead; even PvE raids lack the sight of ele players.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Even after mulling it over, I'm still not certain how these changes to fire were expected to work. I know that they were made for purity of purpose, but there's still the mechanical mystery to it all.

 

First of all, the Fire tree wasn't taken much in PVP and WvW. I've seen Water/Arcane, Water/Air, Water/Earth, but the only place I saw fire show up was in zerg WvW builds. In which case, these changes sought to... nerf the Elementalist?

 

Lets start with persisting flame. Fury on fire blasts was a problem for... some reason. I don't know anyone who actually relied on it, except for solo PVE elementalists. Was the fury reduction supposed to be a nerf to them? I assume it was a nerf, because the air line didn't get any buffs to fury generation to compensate.. The loss of the down state lava font is a minor nerf, but again it only helped with solo PVE elementalists. The slowly growing damage buff that was added is only any good in raids, or in slow fractal groups, because otherwise enemies don't live long enough to actually accumulate the buff, then go into the high DPS phase of the rotation. This is because you've tied getting the buff to the high DPS moves that ele has, making it so Ele only gets the buff after using up all of their DPS skills in fire. But for the sake of argument, lets say that we are taking this trait in PVP and WvW. We lost the fury buffs for support tempests and solo roamers for essentially nothing, because nobody is going to just stand in our fire fields to get the buffs going. Overall, the only thing this change does is nudge power weaver from 35k DPS to 38k DPS against raid bosses, all for the sacrifice of usefulness everywhere else.

 

Pyromancer's Puissance is now contradictory by design. The trait meant to generate personal might now gets rid of all might sources when swapping around fire. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm assuming that it is a damage nerf overall. I've played support renegade, and I can tell you that we don't create excess might for our teammates to just blast off every 10 seconds. We are built to make just enough might to cap might, and any excess is remedied either by reducing boon duration, or by Anet nerfing the skills to require more boon duration. If the elementalist keeps blowing all of their might on a scale 2.0 attack, then I can't see how that wouldn't be a damage nerf (or at least neutral). This might loss isn't compensated for by fire skills generating might, because you lose the might only after you've left fire. In PVP I couldn't ever see myself taking this skill. Ele damage is necessarily hybrid, so generating _and mantaining_ might is important to have competitive damage. This trait now takes that away for a PBAoE of roughly the same strength as Lightning Rod, and the only builds where I used the old version was on WvW staff DPS, where I sure as heck am not standing within 240 range of the enemy zerg. Correct me if I am wrong, but this makes ele the only profession with self boon-removal. To top it off, this change does very little for boon support tempests, who already capped out team might without it.

 

What am I supposed to do? There's no good grandmasters in fire anymore.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> First of all, the Fire tree wasn't taken much in PVP and WvW. I've seen Water/Arcane, Water/Air, Water/Earth, but the only place I saw fire show up was in zerg WvW builds. In which case, these changes sought to... nerf the Elementalist?

 

Just as clarification, Tempest does use Fire traitline in PvP aswell now, due to Smothering auras mainly but Blinding Ashes is pretty nice to have aswell. In WvW obviously Weaver will be using Fire traits, and Support Tempest could be using Fire traitline too

 

[Jski.6180]

I think weaver going to get some good use in wvw after this update for both the staff utility buff and higher dmg when ppl stand in it fire field. Pyromancer puissance is a nice support update for the ele class and i would love to see it added to all the atument lines for there boon types. Every GM chose should be a dmg a support/utility and a def. Fire was odd that it had 2 dmg GM choose.

 

Maybe there room to give ele say might on crit or might on heal on the fire line.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Since they nerfed ToF and stab, yes you see less weavers, or more bunker ones, but fire-weaver was, and is, still one of the most viable build ahead of mender water/arcane etc. But yes tempest is predominant compared to weaver, and still Fire traitline is very prized for smothering aura.

It's false to say fire is not taken, on contrary the traitline is quite balanced (or was, until the last patch). The "updates" from the last patch were actually sneaky nerfs to fire-weaver : no fury, no might.

 

Earth is complete mess since half a decade. Except for some niche signets builds in wvw, or raids because we have no better choice.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I've been thinking about flame expulsion. Since it's basically just a big fart after you've been on fire building up your stuff, it should also apply poison. Or an aoe like choking gas field.

[Pocky.3159]

> @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> I've been thinking about flame expulsion. Since it's basically just a big fart after you've been on fire building up your stuff, it should also apply poison. Or an aoe like choking gas field.

 

I imagine if it was an actual fart; and did about as much damage as one, it'd still get nerfed lol

[Junkpile.7439]

Why can't it explode right away? I can't hang around enemy after burst. I need to flee instantly and it explode when enemy isn't close. What a useless trait and funny part is that other fire grandmaster traits are lackbuster too. Annoying that best damage trait line try to force you play some lame brawler spec.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> Why can't it explode right away? I can't hang around enemy after burst. I need to flee instantly and it explode when enemy isn't close. What a useless trait and funny part is that other fire grandmaster traits are lackbuster too. Annoying that best damage trait line try to force you play some lame brawler spec.

 

You want might and fury also ? And damage on staff, scepter ?

You live in the past, look at your elem now how current and beautiful it is, the avant-garde from all classes to the future patchs.

You don't need all these gimmicks, like "buffs" "dps" "qol" :astonished:

[ollbirtan.2915]

Staff has been dead for a long time, so I'm not sure what all the drama is about with this trait change. Yeah, it's uncalled for and random (anet style), but I don't see anything game breaking here. Aura Share Support Tempest is doing great as before. Roaming condi tempest melts targets even faster now.

_shrugs_

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> Staff has been dead for a long time, so I'm not sure what all the drama is about with this trait change. Yeah, it's uncalled for and random (anet style), but I don't see anything game breaking here. Aura Share Support Tempest is doing great as before. Roaming condi tempest melts targets even faster now.

> _shrugs_

 

As you say : core trailine changes > unnecessary buff for support tempest in exchange of the loss of fury and mights for Core elem and weaver.

And you don't see the issue ?