flamethrower dps too high and gives perma stab

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > @"wasss.1208" said:

> > And for the EE crowd:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

 

> Are you saying that engi should lose 1 dodge if they take the explosive trait line?

>

 

I will have you know mirage loses 1 doge even without IH :)

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > > @"wasss.1208" said:

> > > And for the EE crowd:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

 

> > Are you saying that engi should lose 1 dodge if they take the explosive trait line?

> >

>

> I will have you know mirage loses 1 doge even without IH :)

 

I think the actual point has been that infinite horizon kinda works similarly like explosive entrance by getting you a damage boost for using the ambush after using mirage cloak.

 

Still doesn't really work the same, tho.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Kodama.6453" I know, im just goofing around.

[gousgou.5438]

> @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:

> We live in a timeline where people are complaining about flamethrower engineer.

> What a world we live in now.

 

Combine that with the thread next to this titled "People need to get over hating cc" and you have a fiesta of insanity brewing!

[ShadowCatz.8437]

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> Because the nerf to stab was supposed to be universal, so flamethrower stab application should have been also reduced. Also, having perm stab is in no way healthy for any game mode.

 

Isn't the main problem here that it BOTH offer stab and damage at the same time? It isn't just high stab, but that it can provide damage that is the main problem from what I understand in this thread.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamethrower

 

It looks like it combine Might and Stability from Juggernaut trait with Blind (from skill), burn damage and procs a 10% increase on Power/direct damage on burning targets. It also have a push back (hard CC) so it is a pretty strong combo of skills here.

[CreativeOne.1905]

Funny seeing ppl QQ about flamethrower.

Pro tip; Retal

[Khalisto.5780]

> @"CreativeOne.1905" said:

> Funny seeing ppl QQ about flamethrower.

> Pro tip; Retal

 

I need 1 more pro tip, how i get that on my ele?

[Khalisto.5780]

Usually if you fight them back they end up losing the fight, unless you are super squishy

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

> > @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > Because the nerf to stab was supposed to be universal, so flamethrower stab application should have been also reduced. Also, having perm stab is in no way healthy for any game mode.

>

> Isn't the main problem here that it BOTH offer stab and damage at the same time? It isn't just high stab, but that it can provide damage that is the main problem from what I understand in this thread.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamethrower

>

> It looks like it combine Might and Stability from Juggernaut trait with Blind (from skill), burn damage and procs a 10% increase on Power/direct damage on burning targets. It also have a push back (hard CC) so it is a pretty strong combo of skills here.

 

Oh yes, there is a strong combo there. Go play it in plat 3 and see how well the build does against people who actually know how to play this game....

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

> > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > > Because the nerf to stab was supposed to be universal, so flamethrower stab application should have been also reduced. Also, having perm stab is in no way healthy for any game mode.

> >

> > Isn't the main problem here that it BOTH offer stab and damage at the same time? It isn't just high stab, but that it can provide damage that is the main problem from what I understand in this thread.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamethrower

> >

> > It looks like it combine Might and Stability from Juggernaut trait with Blind (from skill), burn damage and procs a 10% increase on Power/direct damage on burning targets. It also have a push back (hard CC) so it is a pretty strong combo of skills here.

>

> Oh yes, there is a strong combo there. Go play it in plat 3 and see how well the build does against people who actually know how to play this game....

 

plat3 players don't exist

[Avatar.3568]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

> > > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > > > Because the nerf to stab was supposed to be universal, so flamethrower stab application should have been also reduced. Also, having perm stab is in no way healthy for any game mode.

> > >

> > > Isn't the main problem here that it BOTH offer stab and damage at the same time? It isn't just high stab, but that it can provide damage that is the main problem from what I understand in this thread.

> > >

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamethrower

> > >

> > > It looks like it combine Might and Stability from Juggernaut trait with Blind (from skill), burn damage and procs a 10% increase on Power/direct damage on burning targets. It also have a push back (hard CC) so it is a pretty strong combo of skills here.

> >

> > Oh yes, there is a strong combo there. Go play it in plat 3 and see how well the build does against people who actually know how to play this game....

>

> plat3 players don't exist

 

True, the league ends in g3, nothing is higher than that

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Avatar.3568" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > > @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

> > > > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > > > > Because the nerf to stab was supposed to be universal, so flamethrower stab application should have been also reduced. Also, having perm stab is in no way healthy for any game mode.

> > > >

> > > > Isn't the main problem here that it BOTH offer stab and damage at the same time? It isn't just high stab, but that it can provide damage that is the main problem from what I understand in this thread.

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamethrower

> > > >

> > > > It looks like it combine Might and Stability from Juggernaut trait with Blind (from skill), burn damage and procs a 10% increase on Power/direct damage on burning targets. It also have a push back (hard CC) so it is a pretty strong combo of skills here.

> > >

> > > Oh yes, there is a strong combo there. Go play it in plat 3 and see how well the build does against people who actually know how to play this game....

> >

> > plat3 players don't exist

>

> True, the league ends in g3, nothing is higher than that

 

Oh sh*t. I guess flamethrower needs to be nerfed then. My bad. Smitersboon it out of existence!

[Swagger.1459]

> @"felix.2386" said:

> isnt stab supposed to be nerfed?

> why is flamethrower giving perma stab, paired with scrapper, it's impossible to CC

 

Idk, this is the first time in 8 years I’ve seen this complaint. I’m pretty darn sure there are weapons that way out damage flamethrower, so perhaps the issue is just avoid standing in the flames? Maybe if you see the fire than back up past 450 units and use a ranged weapon?

 

And considering your icon, I can assume you’ve enjoyed the fruits of high damage permastealth backstab builds, and ones that can spam high damage skills with high mobility and evades too... So I don’t think the 450 range flamethrower should be much of an issue compared to all the other “stuff” other professions have to offer.

[Dahkeus.8243]

Flamethrower engi with perma stab has been around forever mainly because it's pretty damn terrible in so many situations and it's never been strong enough to cause issues in PvP.

 

Even with heavy might stacking and quickness, the damage hasn't been very good and it gets much, much worse anytime you're chasing someone across uneven terrain since all the damage shoots directly in front of your character and doesn't angle upward/downward similar to things like projectile shots from bows/guns/etc. That in combination with the limited range just makes it very easy to avoid in most realistic situations.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> Flamethrower engi with perma stab has been around forever mainly because it's pretty kitten terrible in so many situations and it's never been strong enough to cause issues in PvP.

>

> Even with heavy might stacking and quickness, the damage hasn't been very good and it gets much, much worse anytime you're chasing someone across uneven terrain since all the damage shoots directly in front of your character and doesn't angle upward/downward similar to things like projectile shots from bows/guns/etc. That in combination with the limited range just makes it very easy to avoid in most realistic situations.

 

This here.

 

Flamethrower scrapper is actually just a thing in low tier pvp since people are not really using terrain correctly.

[Teb.6980]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > It's not a good build, but it's also not fun to fight.

> If the meta is full of gimmicks like spam and cc you get gimmick that counter it.

> Then again i haven't seen anyone use the build to its full potential, so many fields and combo finishers unused, shame.

>

 

Lmfao this dude is implying that even without skill people can carry with the build

Anet tried tweaking it by buffering the spike from napalm 2, but also yes.

Flamethrower eng is like condi herald

Should rather exist with its damage turned down a notch.

 

I wonder why anet ignored certain kits' damage when the big nerf to power demaggo was done in February. I say turn it down a little notch, not kill it

 

 

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Teb.6980" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > It's not a good build, but it's also not fun to fight.

> > If the meta is full of gimmicks like spam and cc you get gimmick that counter it.

> > Then again i haven't seen anyone use the build to its full potential, so many fields and combo finishers unused, shame.

> >

>

> Lmfao this dude is implying that even without skill people can carry with the build

> Anet tried tweaking it by buffering the spike from napalm 2, but also yes.

> Flamethrower eng is like condi herald

> Should rather exist with its damage turned down a notch.

>

> I wonder why anet ignored certain kits' damage when the big nerf to power demaggo was done in February. I say turn it down a little notch, not kill it

>

>

I'm implying that people are bad at this game and can't use builds even if they have them given for free. 3 lightning fields non used for swiftness. People don't think how to use them, what makes them tick, what purpose does it have, cause if you don't know why are you running flamethrower scrapper you are better off spamming with Holosmith.

 

[XenoSpyro.1780]

Flamethrower is weak without stability. Low power damage unless you have all damage stats (so no armor), max crit and all damage bonuses, and even then you're ridiculously vulnerable for how close you're forced to be. It's also only one stack, so with all of the corrupt and strip and CC spam this game has now, Jugg's stab pulsing really should be once per second.

Remove stability, and its user is going to be bashed around like a ping pong ball.

 

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Flamethrower has 300 to 600 range.

Jet has 450. Used to be 600.

 

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> I will have you know mirage loses 1 doge even without IH :)

while also puking out other evades and shitting out damage, while also shitting out teleports, while also shitting out stealth

 

but yeah, engi dodge op, need 1 bar

 

[Crozame.4098]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > I think they're flat out wrong, lightning rod is horrible for the game and shouldn't exist.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well I suppose you're welcome to your own opinion. I generally agree with the viewpoint it's fine so will have to agree to disagree on this with you.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > I think he would have a point if it was inconstant between classes, if lets say Terror on necromancer didn't do damage on fear but tempest did on any cc. So if the toys of other classes are taken away no one gets special treatment, which brings me to explosive entrance damage, why the kitten does this kitten still have PVE scaling while everyone else got shanked.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Just my personal guess, but I think it is because explosive entrance is telegraphed.

> > > You see the enemy engineer dodge, then you know their next attack applies explosive entrance. Which means you can prepare countermeasures like blocks, dodges, etc.

> > >

> > > And if you actually do deny the explosive entrance in that way, then you deny the engineer some big effects. You don't just deny them damage on you, but also the barrier application from the master and the blind from the grandmaster trait.

> > >

> > > Look at other damage procs in traits.

> > > * Daredevil's impacting disruption: damage on interrupt. Thief has several instant CCs, if they really want then they will get an interrupt off. As long as you can't cover all skills you use with stability, you can't prevent this damage, hence why it is reduced.

> > > * Necromancer's chill of death: casting lesser spinal shivers when hitting enemies below 50% health. It doesn't apply just on the next hit and isn't consumed if this one misses, as long as you will hit anything against a foe below 50% health, you get the damage.

> > > * Elementalist's lightning rod: dealing damage when disabling foes. Just like thief, elementalist has instant CC spells to ensure that this trait will trigger.

> > >

> > > See what I mean? Avoiding explosive entrance works because you can deny the next hit and that consumes the charge, denying all the other associated effects as well.

> > > Other damage dealing traits don't work like this, they don't have charges which can get consumed, they are mostly always active if a requirement is met, avoiding them becomes hard to impossible at that point.

> > >

> > Nah its not well telegraphed trait, its passive damage, that boosts all attacks, you should not dodge passives. Dodge everything is not a valid way of playing. If you insist that this design is not a problem then reckless dodge should get the pve scaling too and one of the minors should give 1/4 s daze just for the lolz.

> > Also you argument about grandmasters falls apart since bound https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bound is a grandmaster trait that changes the playstyle and yet it got normalized. Everyone gets the same toys or no one gets them.

> > The way it should have worked is throw some grenades in front of you on dodge, do pitiful damage like all other dodge traits, and get to stack some of your passive minor that gives % damage.

>

> You mention reckless dodge and were talking about being consistent before, but if you look at reckless dodge then you would see that it **doesn't work like explosive entrance**.

>

> Explosive entrance applies a buff **after** dodging that applies the effects on the **next** attack. Which means that the engineer has to perform a dodge roll, then another attack afterwards.

>

> Reckless dodge makes **the dodge itself** an attack. All dodge traits working like this (including another engineer one: thermal release valve from holosmith) got the reduced damage, since making the dodge itself an attack gives less time to react than having to perform another attack after a completed dodge.

>

> Your argument has been that traits should be consistent? Explosive entrance **is** consistent, since it is literally the only trait in the game working like this, so it is consistent by default. All the traits **which actually work like reckless dodge** are also consistent by being given the reduced damage treatment.

 

Wow still defending HOLO. There are too many things to dodge: holo 2345, grenade barrage, grenades, sword 3 2 after the high heat, and also for some cases the rampage. How many dodges we have~~~

 

And yes, the war dodge and the explosive entrance works essentially the same, the dodge come first then follows an attack. If there are any differences, its only that the explosive entrance is more OP because it give barrier, its dazes, it blinds, and you can also control when you want to use it. so please stop your nonsense..

[Azreell.1568]

This is why this game mode continues to lose players.

 

A non meta, low tier build and you people want to nerf it.

 

It doesn't over perform nor does it get a high ranking in any season - yet because its annoying for some to fight they want to destroy it then wonder why we have no build diversity in this game mode.

 

GG

 

 

[felix.2386]

> @"Azreell.1568" said:

> This is why this game mode continues to lose players.

>

> A non meta, low tier build and you people want to nerf it.

>

> It doesn't over perform nor does it get a high ranking in any season - yet because its annoying for some to fight they want to destroy it then wonder why we have no build diversity in this game mode.

>

> GG

>

>

 

this game mode keeps losing players because these kind of braindead toxic builds keep existing and not getting dealt with and it's just braindead gameplay that nobody but PvE heroes for dailies find it fun.

you are not really making sense sorry

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"felix.2386" said:

> > @"Azreell.1568" said:

> > This is why this game mode continues to lose players.

> >

> > A non meta, low tier build and you people want to nerf it.

> >

> > It doesn't over perform nor does it get a high ranking in any season - yet because its annoying for some to fight they want to destroy it then wonder why we have no build diversity in this game mode.

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

>

> this game mode keeps losing players because these kind of braindead toxic builds keep existing and not getting dealt with and it's just braindead gameplay that nobody but PvE heroes for dailies find it fun.

> you are not really making sense sorry

 

Oh but you are. People keep leaving PvP because a jokebuild thats uneffective in serious pvp? So much sense. Too much if you ask me. You are overperforming in the making sense department, please dial it down a bit because we cannot comprehend the sheer amount of sense you're making right now.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"felix.2386" said:

> > @"Azreell.1568" said:

> > This is why this game mode continues to lose players.

> >

> > A non meta, low tier build and you people want to nerf it.

> >

> > It doesn't over perform nor does it get a high ranking in any season - yet because its annoying for some to fight they want to destroy it then wonder why we have no build diversity in this game mode.

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

>

> this game mode keeps losing players because these kind of braindead toxic builds keep existing and not getting dealt with and it's just braindead gameplay that nobody but PvE heroes for dailies find it fun.

> you are not really making sense sorry

 

How is that build toxic in any way?

It's not overperforming and is also easily countered by alot of stuff.

 

Retaliation deals alot of damage to someone camping flamethrower.

The weapon struggles to hit anyone not on the same level as you, so if you are standing under or above them, they won't hit you with their flamethrower. Which means using the terrain counters that weapon pretty hard and that is a skill that every PvP player should learn at some point.

 

Condition damage works fairly well against them, that build has 1 condition removal in the arsenal usually and that most of the time won't be enough against condition heavy enemies.

Boon removal and especially boon corrupt works really well against that build.

[Zawn.9647]

> @"CreativeOne.1905" said:

> Funny seeing ppl QQ about flamethrower.

> Pro tip; Retal

 

I need a pro tip... What about the perma stab? Oh mr pvp-genius

[Azreell.1568]

 

 

> @"felix.2386" said:

> > @"Azreell.1568" said:

> > This is why this game mode continues to lose players.

> >

> > A non meta, low tier build and you people want to nerf it.

> >

> > It doesn't over perform nor does it get a high ranking in any season - yet because its annoying for some to fight they want to destroy it then wonder why we have no build diversity in this game mode.

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

>

> this game mode keeps losing players because these kind of braindead toxic builds keep existing and not getting dealt with and it's just braindead gameplay that nobody but PvE heroes for dailies find it fun.

> you are not really making sense sorry

 

Build Does not have a stun break.

Has limited condition cleanse

VERY squishy to conditions overall

Retail hurts it

Any decent team with focus fire and 1 necro of any spec will make this spec useless.

Terrain abuse can cause flame thrower to do no dmg.

 

I can keep listing the builds weaknesses.

 

 

 

 

 

> @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > @"CreativeOne.1905" said:

> > Funny seeing ppl QQ about flamethrower.

> > Pro tip; Retal

>

> I need a pro tip... What about the perma stab? Oh mr pvp-genius

 

Considering I don't think I have been on a team lately that didn't have some form of boon corrupt, condi application or a necro - There goes that perma stab.

 

Any more questions?