Yasai.3549 Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 > @"Justine.6351" said: > well if you know when to dodge you should know how to kite it without having to dodge it. Not like Thief is the most mobile Profession in the game or anything. And kiting an invisible enemy? HA! EASY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > well if you know when to dodge you should know how to kite it without having to dodge it. > > Not like Thief is the most mobile Profession in the game or anything. > > And kiting an invisible enemy? > HA! EASY! See with your mind not with your eyes young padawan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > well if you know when to dodge you should know how to kite it without having to dodge it. > > Not like Thief is the most mobile Profession in the game or anything. > > And kiting an invisible enemy? > HA! EASY! Kiting a Deadeye is actually possible. If he's visible once firing his/her opener, you can move behind walls/pillars to force a calculated move from the thief. He wants to be at a safe distance but also have an angle at you. Combine this with his original position, and it's basicly a given where he'll appear from stealth next time to fire at you again. That gives you time to set up some kind of counter-move. Kiting a daredevil though... well have fun with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 While we're at it, let's just remove the ability for any class other than thief to attack while in stealth. It's a defensive mechanic, right? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating shitstorm if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorhuz.4695 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and doesnt need a reveal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorhuz.4695 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. > > Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and soesnt need a reveal Try playing mesmer with a thief around and you'll tell me again 1) if you don't need reveal 2) how these "evade frames" serve you -which are 1s evade on sword 2 and 1 to 4s on distortion, unless you go full meme with inspiration, and at that point the thief wins anyway 'cause you deal no damage- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. > > Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and soesnt need a reveal Necro needs it but necro is thief food. Necro is by far the easiest thing in the universe to kill on thief, it's actually pathetic. Mesmers can fight back if they're tanky builds but necros just sit in shroud while I teleport away and slowly lose LF, or lose shroud then instantly die to my burst. They never actually interact with me. Not that mesmers also aren't free kills for thief, just tanky condi mesmer builds can live and be annoying, while burstier builds just flop over and give me every boon in the game for free. Necro and mesmer steals are also too powerful and impactful, you're actually griefing your team by being a mesmer around a thief tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycura.1982 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > What's next? Moonlanding was faked? G5 causes Covid-19? You believe in the moon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypto.1703 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 Amusing which I am pretty sure the people running with this idea are the same ones you see in wvw using auto dodge exploits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > > > > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. > > > > Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and soesnt need a reveal > > Try playing mesmer with a thief around and you'll tell me again > 1) if you don't need reveal > 2) how these "evade frames" serve you -which are 1s evade on sword 2 and 1 to 4s on distortion, unless you go full meme with inspiration, and at that point the thief wins anyway 'cause you deal no damage- Well for one teef happens to be mesmers counter so.... ever class has em, 2 mirage had ton of evades via distortion and has a burst outa stealth that literally one shots almost all thieves, I was hit for 18k just this evening strait outa stealth in pvp not wvw which is far more than even a full on power thief can back stab for. Also the the stolen skill can be interrupted pretty easily as its cast times like a full sec. But in the end yeah mes is at a bit of disadvantage if he doesnt get the burst off but that like any class vs their counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > > > > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. > > > > Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and soesnt need a reveal > > Necro needs it but necro is thief food. Necro is by far the easiest thing in the universe to kill on thief, it's actually pathetic. Mesmers can fight back if they're tanky builds but necros just sit in shroud while I teleport away and slowly lose LF, or lose shroud then instantly die to my burst. They never actually interact with me. Not that mesmers also aren't free kills for thief, just tanky condi mesmer builds can live and be annoying, while burstier builds just flop over and give me every boon in the game for free. > > Necro and mesmer steals are also too powerful and impactful, you're actually griefing your team by being a mesmer around a thief tbh. A good necro can easily outsistain and down a thief lmao u serious, free food if ur bad at necro yeah. Theres a reason necros are spammed in both pvp and wvw as their highest reward for least work, cmon wth. Don't u have a pls tone down reaper thread, u must think their strong enough to warrant a thread no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > > > > > > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. > > > > > > Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and soesnt need a reveal > > > > Necro needs it but necro is thief food. Necro is by far the easiest thing in the universe to kill on thief, it's actually pathetic. Mesmers can fight back if they're tanky builds but necros just sit in shroud while I teleport away and slowly lose LF, or lose shroud then instantly die to my burst. They never actually interact with me. Not that mesmers also aren't free kills for thief, just tanky condi mesmer builds can live and be annoying, while burstier builds just flop over and give me every boon in the game for free. > > > > Necro and mesmer steals are also too powerful and impactful, you're actually griefing your team by being a mesmer around a thief tbh. > > A good necro can easily outsistain and down a thief lmao u serious, free food if ur bad at necro yeah. Theres a reason necros are spammed in both pvp and wvw as their highest reward for least work, cmon wth. Don't u have a pls tone down reaper thread, u must think their strong enough to warrant a thread no? If you ever die to a necro on thief in an even, fair, 1v1 situation, you probably had a seizure at your keyboard mid fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > > > > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > > > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > > > > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. > > > > > > > > Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and soesnt need a reveal > > > > > > Necro needs it but necro is thief food. Necro is by far the easiest thing in the universe to kill on thief, it's actually pathetic. Mesmers can fight back if they're tanky builds but necros just sit in shroud while I teleport away and slowly lose LF, or lose shroud then instantly die to my burst. They never actually interact with me. Not that mesmers also aren't free kills for thief, just tanky condi mesmer builds can live and be annoying, while burstier builds just flop over and give me every boon in the game for free. > > > > > > Necro and mesmer steals are also too powerful and impactful, you're actually griefing your team by being a mesmer around a thief tbh. > > > > A good necro can easily outsistain and down a thief lmao u serious, free food if ur bad at necro yeah. Theres a reason necros are spammed in both pvp and wvw as their highest reward for least work, cmon wth. Don't u have a pls tone down reaper thread, u must think their strong enough to warrant a thread no? > > If you ever die to a necro on thief in an even, fair, 1v1 situation, you probably had a seizure at your keyboard mid fight. If u ever die to a thief in a 1v1 as a necro in a fair fight u probably had a seizure at ur kb lol see it's easy to say. Sure I down a lot of necro's but I have to chip away at it far longer than is worth it in pvp, the necro can strip ur hp far far faster than u can his between all the hp, shroud, fears and reshrouds cuz of shroud regen that regens faster than it should. On top one gastly claw takes 40% of a teefs hp in one hit if hes running at 15k lol. If a thief downs a neceo in a 1v1 be assured that he earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zarcon.7820 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > Agree completely. > > Getting tired of blocking/evading/dodging stealthed attacks while seeing "block block block" 3x and someone still isn't revealed. Apparantly this is what the game has become. It is normal to block 3 attacks just by passive boons. Instead of stealth being a problem I think this is even a larger problem. That promotes poor gameplay. I vote for: make backstab unblockable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"zarcon.7820" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > Agree completely. > > > > Getting tired of blocking/evading/dodging stealthed attacks while seeing "block block block" 3x and someone still isn't revealed. > > Apparantly this is what the game has become. It is normal to block 3 attacks just by passive boons. Instead of stealth being a problem I think this is even a larger problem. That promotes poor gameplay. > > I vote for: make backstab unblockable. Nah, we aren't talking about patch to patch balance here. We are talking general basic engine mechanic balance. If a stealthed attack connects with a target, regardless of it deals damage or hits a block or hits an invuln, the attacker should be revealed. That's how it should have been from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorhuz.4695 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > > > > > > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. > > > > > > Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and soesnt need a reveal > > > > Try playing mesmer with a thief around and you'll tell me again > > 1) if you don't need reveal > > 2) how these "evade frames" serve you -which are 1s evade on sword 2 and 1 to 4s on distortion, unless you go full meme with inspiration, and at that point the thief wins anyway 'cause you deal no damage- > > Well for one teef happens to be mesmers counter so.... ever class has em, 2 mirage had ton of evades via distortion and has a burst outa stealth that literally one shots almost all thieves, I was hit for 18k just this evening strait outa stealth in pvp not wvw which is far more than even a full on power thief can back stab for. Also the the stolen skill can be interrupted pretty easily as its cast times like a full sec. But in the end yeah mes is at a bit of disadvantage if he doesnt get the burst off but that like any class vs their counter. Mirage HAD tons of evades. Now it doesn't. As a matter of fact mirage doesn't dodge more than any other spec (Revs and warriors evade far more, for example) and same goes for core, which is a bit better 'cause it has the second dodge but no real vigor generation so it's on the normal side of the spectrum. The oneshot from a mesmer requires an entire build revolving around this (and about at least 5 skills at once, maybe 6) . There's a reason it's not meta: all of this can be negated by one wild dodge - blind - aegis, and whether it hits or misses you are a sitting duck for the next 10s or so, just because you used everything in your skillset; it's not a build, it's a dice throw. The only reliable evade frame mesmer has is sword 2 unless you go full meme with signets; I'd gladly give up a bit of stealth to get at least a window to pressure daredevils, 'cause now it's really free wins for them and the skill level really doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. Wasn't my idea to tone down damage so much that you can survive making a mistake... I upgraded "my build" to berserker amulet and assassins signet, and I'm still more durable than I used to be before the february patch. It still feels weird eating a burst from something and surviving. It feels wrong. Something managed to hit you, you're supposed to be dead. The whole class design reflects that this used to be a class that was supposed to avoid getting punished at all. This is why thief has entire traitlines and weaponsets that are just evades and teleports and cooldown reductions on those. > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. Reveal is a tricky thing to balance though. You shut an entire traitline down alongside turning the enemies main defenses off. If it's easily accessible, playing anything relying on stealth would be impossible. You might see it as a problem, but it HAS TO be this way. Easy on demand reveals would just force those sticking to thief to go full evadespam. Now I'm not saying individual skills cannot be buffed, some skills with reveal on them hillariously bad. But for example mesmer getting reveal would be a bad thing. Classes having access to stealth shouldn't have reveal. I already don't understand how ranger can have it's own stealth paired with the best reveal skill (Sic'Em) in the game. Holo is also pushing it with "Lock On" thats 2 reveals in one, yet it can also stealth even if less frequently. > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. Noone with any intent to actually make balance better would suggest such a thing. It's more like "thats how it works in WoW, every game should be exactly like WoW" kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"Hollow.5382" said: > > Title. > > Currently, there is no reward for properly timing a dodge/evade against a stealth attack and no risk to the attacker for missing an attack. > > Being hit while in stealth should unstealth you(conditions excluded). > Starting an action while in stealth should immediately unstealth you. > Missing(blind/it being evaded) an attack in stealth should unstealth you. > Stealth shouldn't stack duration. > If starting an action in stealth unstealths you, making it so missing an attack unstealths you is a redundant change. Besides that, apply these changes to blocks and invulns too and we are all good. > @"Shala.8352" said: > and we can even go further: immagine having already casted a skill that can be interrupted by stealth in the middle of the animation. Ye that's what happens to a single skill in the game, unrelentig assault. Seriously, why it gets interrupted by stealth leaving me in the middle of the aoe spam team fight like an idiot? Does Ranger rapid fire gets interrupted when a thief/engi stealth? Does Warrior Whirlwind Attack gets interrupted by stealth? Why revenant is still so buggy???? I find it far more fun to teleport into the middle of my zerg when I'm attacked with this skill, but to each his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorhuz.4695 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > Wasn't my idea to tone down damage so much that you can survive making a mistake... I upgraded "my build" to berserker amulet and assassins signet, and I'm still more durable than I used to be before the february patch. It still feels weird eating a burst from something and surviving. It feels wrong. Something managed to hit you, you're supposed to be dead. > The whole class design reflects that this used to be a class that was supposed to avoid getting punished at all. This is why thief has entire traitlines and weaponsets that are just evades and teleports and cooldown reductions on those. > > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > Reveal is a tricky thing to balance though. You shut an entire traitline down alongside turning the enemies main defenses off. If it's easily accessible, playing anything relying on stealth would be impossible. You might see it as a problem, but it HAS TO be this way. Easy on demand reveals would just force those sticking to thief to go full evadespam. Now I'm not saying individual skills cannot be buffed, some skills with reveal on them hillariously bad. But for example mesmer getting reveal would be a bad thing. Classes having access to stealth shouldn't have reveal. I already don't understand how ranger can have it's own stealth paired with the best reveal skill (Sic'Em) in the game. Holo is also pushing it with "Lock On" thats 2 reveals in one, yet it can also stealth even if less frequently. It would affect me too, I play PU mesmer; you tether me once, my entire utility bar becomes useless. But as far as I am concerned, back when holo and reveals were a thing, I wasn't shut down; I just learned to change my behavior so not to get revealed, while holosmiths had a fair chance to fight back against me. I think it was healthier than whatever is this thing we have right now. Just my honest opinion, though, I'm g3 and I know nothing of high level games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 Actually on topic: you generally only get one, maybe two chances to land a stealth attack because of the built in 1s cooldown. If you miss those, you either have to waste more initiative or cooldowns restealthing or you come out of stealth without landing your stealth attack. People want the thief to be revealed after whiffing a sneak attack, so ok, let's think about the sneak attack that already does that, Death's Judgement. Death's Judgement is unique in that it applies a self reveal as soon as you press the button, no other sneak attack does this. That means that I will never have stealth expire with no reveal unless I choose not to attack, so if I trait for it I get 33% extra damage reduction from Flickering Shadows and 200 extra power from Revealed Training. These effects start as soon as the button is pressed because of the self reveal, not when the attack hits, and so are guaranteed, controllable effects given in a way that other sneak attacks don't give me because if my stealth just runs out after missing a backstab, I get no reveal. Now let's look at the cast time, the time for the bullet to travel to target and the time for your evade. Death's judgement has a 1/2 second cast time and you are revealed as soon as you start it. Dodge has a 3/4 second duration, and assuming 1200 range you're going to have anything up to 1/2 a second in flight time for the bullet. Once you add these things up, and take a little away to account for the dodge and the cast/flight time overlapping as you react to the attack, and consider that the self reveal has a 3s duration, realistically you will have half as much time to punish me while revealed from Death's Judgement than you would if a backstab had landed and revealed me. That's as things stand now, if backstab revealed me as soon as I pressed the button you'd have at least 1s less time to punish me because of the cast time on backstab and because of the dodge (either evading the backstab or a panic dodge after getting hit). This would mean you get more tells and I only get one attempt to land the backstab, but I get less time defending waiting for reveal to expire after the attack, and I get guaranteed protection whether I hit or not. Given I only get one or two chances to land any sneak attack that isn't Death's Judgement anyways, I'd be fine with all sneak attacks revealing me as soon as I press the button as given the above, I'd actually consider it a buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setdog.1592 Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Currently, there is no reward for properly timing a dodge/evade against a stealth attack> @"Hollow.5382" said: > Title. > Currently, there is no reward for properly timing a dodge/evade against a stealth attack and no risk to the attacker for missing an attack. You get to keep your health, thats your reward for your well timed dodge. The risk to attacker is now you know they're near. So just fart in any direction and collect your kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire. > > > > > > As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact, every time thief had viable builds without stealth reliance, the community whined and whinged untill it got gutted and thief was forced (at least partially)back into stealth again. S/D used to be king for several metas, maybe it will make another comeback when holo and friends are finally toned down. Just wait and see, the forum will turn into a thief hating kitten if those copying sindrenner start spamming S/D in ranks again. > > > > > > > > Because with all the teleport spam, thief is almost impossible to punish. > > > > You run deadeye, which is less of a problem in that aspect, but deadeye's dash is insanely strong at disengaging. Then there's sb5. Then there's black powder. Then there's a healing skill which is also a dodge. Then there's dagger storm evading everything. Then there's shadowstep. Then there's the signet to get even more endurance. Thief having sustain means it can do everything, and even when the player fails badly, there's very little way to capitalize on that. > > > > > > > > The problem with stealth is that revealed is not easily accessible. Some classes -like mesmer- has no access to revealed at all, and thus are eaten alive by thieves. If anything I'd give an easier access to reveal skills. > > > > > > > > I'm not going to comment about "being revealed while you take damage" or being revealed by blinded attacks, 'cause it's a joke; I attack PRECISELY to remove that blindness. > > > > > > Theres reveals on classes that need it like war, guard,ranger etc. Necro can fear enough and is tanky enough to get a backstab tickle and mesmer has enough evade frames, distortions and stealth etc and soesnt need a reveal > > > > Try playing mesmer with a thief around and you'll tell me again > > 1) if you don't need reveal > > 2) how these "evade frames" serve you -which are 1s evade on sword 2 and 1 to 4s on distortion, unless you go full meme with inspiration, and at that point the thief wins anyway 'cause you deal no damage- > > Well for one teef happens to be mesmers counter so.... ever class has em, 2 mirage had ton of evades via distortion and has a burst outa stealth that literally one shots almost all thieves, I was hit for 18k just this evening strait outa stealth in pvp not wvw which is far more than even a full on power thief can back stab for. Also the the stolen skill can be interrupted pretty easily as its cast times like a full sec. But in the end yeah mes is at a bit of disadvantage if he doesnt get the burst off but that like any class vs their counter. you are mistaking 1 build with several. Mirage has axe/sword evade and disortion. Core 1shot pu mes has """ 1shot """ 2 different builds And BTW, mesmer is the worst class to deal with stealthed enemies, in fact the only real thing you can do is stealth and run. There is no aoe to cast, there is not evades to use, you have no sustain so you cant take the hit. Mesmer cant disort vs stealth attack due to no cloes and 1s of disort is a waste when you dont even know if its going to do anything. Using dodge is a waste since its your main way of cleansing, and backstab traited fears -> meaning you HAVE to keep it for it, or else you have to blink afterwards. So you are left with "gut feeling blurred frenzy" and torch 4. Since thief has Infinitely more stealth then you they can just restealth again, or even not have to since they can stealth for 15s+ at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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