If we're gonna have marked on every tower/sentry and target painters

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

Then we also need a boon painter that turns off boon sharing between allies for 30 seconds. Minstrel boon spam is absolutely ridiculous.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

But even the minstrel boon spammer and all his greedy allies get marked by everything you listed, none of the marking is specific just to stealth classes only the ability to re-steath; and there are ways to avoid all of it if you get marked, even if you have to wp and start again, its just most people are too lazy to do that.

 

Besides, a free for boon rip trap would just end up catching the roamers that are already getting marked by everything you listed regardless of whether those roamers can actually stealth, so now they're marked and boon-less...on second thought I'd love to read those forum posts, please implement!

[Junkpile.7439]

I only defend objectives. Pointless play mesmer if enemy can see you.

[Caedmon.6798]

I would be for it but it won't go. Blob pushes vs equal sized blob on a tower with radar,the pushing blob having no boons would be simply unfair. They just need to remove the reveal aspect and keep it to being marked on the map only.

[Clownmug.8357]

I don't think that'll fly when something like Winds of Disenchantment does it for only 5 seconds and has been nerfed into oblivion since it was released.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Marked/reveal from sentries/towers/traps/tricks is like training wheels but I feel it is still incomplete. We need training wheels that deal with everything, from blocks/invul/stab/heals/lf regen. I think it would be a great idea if they also disabled those in place of classes that don't use stealth when they have marked. I don't think it would be too oppressive.

 

If it is too oppressive, then so is marked/reveal/trap/tricks for stealth. There should be something that punishes all classes.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"HazyDaisy.4107" said:

> But even the **Stealth** spammer and all his greedy allies get **Painted** by **Boon Painter**, none of the marking is specific just to **Boon** classes only the ability to **apply Boons**; and there are ways to avoid all of it if you get **Painted**, even if you have to wp and start again, its just most people are too lazy to do that.

 

So, if I flip the argument to this, does that feel good? No? You can understand the OP's point then.

 

> Besides, a free for boon rip trap would just end up catching the roamers that are already getting marked by everything you listed regardless of whether those roamers can actually stealth, so now they're marked and boon-less...on second thought I'd love to read those forum posts, please implement!

 

Thing is, it's a two edged sword at that point which is fine. But that's exactly the point of the OP; getting marked affects stealth classes in a way that other classes don't even have to think about. I personally think it's not too big an issue given stealth classes can yolo into enemy territory in a way that others can't, but it is still annoying sometimes.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> I don't think that'll fly when something like Winds of Disenchantment does it for only 5 seconds and has been nerfed into oblivion since it was released.

 

Winds is not the same, Winds strips boons and forbids boon application. Under my suggestion, a Firebrand can still give itself stability, just not share it to teammates. But I see your point, it would make the game too hard for the map blob people and we just can't have that at all.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> I would be for it but it won't go. Blob pushes vs equal sized blob on a tower with radar,the pushing blob having no boons would be simply unfair. They just need to remove the reveal aspect and keep it to being marked on the map only.

 

Not suggesting for Mark to forbid boons. I'm suggesting just a Painter like Target Painter that consumes supply for a one time use. Although having map blobs suffer more under passive sentry/tower Mark is not something I would complain about.

[Shroud.2307]

Marked just needs to only trigger if the source is put in combat. Ie. Watch Tower does not activate until NPC guards are aggro'd or the objective takes damage, same with Sentries.

 

I understand this would make it easier to avoid, but that's the point. As I'd said in other related threads, Marked/Watch Tower would still be powerful and useful but this change would promote more active gameplay. Feels like the only people left in WvW just want to rally in a massive death ball and let the commander be the only one to do any kind of thinking. God forbid people put some effort or strategy in to playing and do things on their own instead of relying on automated upgrades and tactics everywhere.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> Marked just needs to only trigger if the source is put in combat. Ie. Watch Tower does not activate until NPC guards are aggro'd or the objective takes damage, same with Sentries.

>

> I understand this would make it easier to avoid, but that's the point. As I'd said in other related threads, Marked/Watch Tower would still be powerful and useful but this change would promote more active gameplay. Feels like the only people left in WvW just want to rally in a massive death ball and let the commander be the only one to do any kind of thinking. God forbid people put some effort or strategy in to playing and do things on their own instead of relying on automated upgrades and tactics everywhere.

 

To add to this, IMO Mark should really not reveal on one stealth application, it should only punish stacking stealth. Going through a long reveal because you didn't attack in 3 seconds of stealth or the enemy dodged is just nuts, especially since this whole mechanic was introduced pretty much entirely because of the existence of Deadeye. Mark should reveal on the 4th second of stealth, not the 3rd. That way stealth stacking builds are punished, and so are SA thieves in general because they get 4 seconds per stealth application.

[Justine.6351]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > Marked just needs to only trigger if the source is put in combat. Ie. Watch Tower does not activate until NPC guards are aggro'd or the objective takes damage, same with Sentries.

> >

> > I understand this would make it easier to avoid, but that's the point. As I'd said in other related threads, Marked/Watch Tower would still be powerful and useful but this change would promote more active gameplay. Feels like the only people left in WvW just want to rally in a massive death ball and let the commander be the only one to do any kind of thinking. God forbid people put some effort or strategy in to playing and do things on their own instead of relying on automated upgrades and tactics everywhere.

>

> To add to this, IMO Mark should really not reveal on one stealth application, it should only punish stacking stealth. Going through a long reveal because you didn't attack in 3 seconds of stealth or the enemy dodged is just nuts, especially since this whole mechanic was introduced pretty much entirely because of the existence of Deadeye. Mark should reveal on the 4th second of stealth, not the 3rd. That way stealth stacking builds are punished, and so are SA thieves in general because they get 4 seconds per stealth application.

 

Am I crazy or has marked been around a lot longer than deadeye?

[Kovu.7560]

Change marked to not reveal stealthed folks in-game, only mark them on the minimap. Sort of a pseudo-detection. A blip on the radar.

On the flipside I'm against stacking stealth past a certain threshold. Perhaps increase stealth duration on leaps by 1s but have newer applications overlap rather than stack? It should be used strategically, not spammed for days on end after each attack.

 

As for boons... there needs to be less AoE boonshare. That sort of thing should be at a premium and not provided in their entirely by 2-3 professions. (Mostly guardians, of course.) It's right up there with projectile hate on the list of things that should predominately be single target/personal use. Finally, less pulsing boons. I hate that pocket firebrand is even a thing, but I'm not going to complain in-game if one of them opens their shiny book and starts reading at me.

 

~ Kovu

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > Marked just needs to only trigger if the source is put in combat. Ie. Watch Tower does not activate until NPC guards are aggro'd or the objective takes damage, same with Sentries.

> > >

> > > I understand this would make it easier to avoid, but that's the point. As I'd said in other related threads, Marked/Watch Tower would still be powerful and useful but this change would promote more active gameplay. Feels like the only people left in WvW just want to rally in a massive death ball and let the commander be the only one to do any kind of thinking. God forbid people put some effort or strategy in to playing and do things on their own instead of relying on automated upgrades and tactics everywhere.

> >

> > To add to this, IMO Mark should really not reveal on one stealth application, it should only punish stacking stealth. Going through a long reveal because you didn't attack in 3 seconds of stealth or the enemy dodged is just nuts, especially since this whole mechanic was introduced pretty much entirely because of the existence of Deadeye. Mark should reveal on the 4th second of stealth, not the 3rd. That way stealth stacking builds are punished, and so are SA thieves in general because they get 4 seconds per stealth application.

>

> Am I crazy or has marked been around a lot longer than deadeye?

 

Marked may have been around but did not reveal. I can't get you a date on when it started revealing but the wiki page for it was last edited December 2018. PoF launched September 2017.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marked

 

Edit: maybe November 2018 according to this forum post https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60303/new-marked-debuff

[Justine.6351]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > Marked just needs to only trigger if the source is put in combat. Ie. Watch Tower does not activate until NPC guards are aggro'd or the objective takes damage, same with Sentries.

> > > >

> > > > I understand this would make it easier to avoid, but that's the point. As I'd said in other related threads, Marked/Watch Tower would still be powerful and useful but this change would promote more active gameplay. Feels like the only people left in WvW just want to rally in a massive death ball and let the commander be the only one to do any kind of thinking. God forbid people put some effort or strategy in to playing and do things on their own instead of relying on automated upgrades and tactics everywhere.

> > >

> > > To add to this, IMO Mark should really not reveal on one stealth application, it should only punish stacking stealth. Going through a long reveal because you didn't attack in 3 seconds of stealth or the enemy dodged is just nuts, especially since this whole mechanic was introduced pretty much entirely because of the existence of Deadeye. Mark should reveal on the 4th second of stealth, not the 3rd. That way stealth stacking builds are punished, and so are SA thieves in general because they get 4 seconds per stealth application.

> >

> > Am I crazy or has marked been around a lot longer than deadeye?

>

> Marked may have been around but did not reveal. I can't get you a date on when it started revealing but the wiki page for it was last edited December 2018. PoF launched September 2017.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marked

>

> Edit: maybe November 2018 according to this forum post https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60303/new-marked-debuff

 

Oh yeah it looks like we were saying the same things back then too.

[Mokk.2397]

Why should anyone have to purchase extra tricks and traps to deal with two problems just to create more problems .

Power creep has come in many forms other than just damage . I would suggest fixing the excessive stealth and boon spam . Then remove the marks completely . Simpler is going to be more fun and would reduce the strain on the already over strained servers.

[kash.9213]

> @"Mokk.2397" said:

> Why should anyone have to purchase extra tricks and traps to deal with two problems just to create more problems .

> Power creep has come in many forms other than just damage . I would suggest fixing the excessive stealth and boon spam . Then remove the marks completely . Simpler is going to be more fun and would reduce the strain on the already over strained servers.

 

Stealth or stealth attacks window could be regulated a bit with maybe a change or two dealing with a short lived proximity effect to help counter a reset and de-combat. Traveling is doable I guess right now alone or with a small group but trying to help out a squad or something can be a pain trying to avoid friendly stealth.

[Mokk.2397]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> Stealth or stealth attacks window could be regulated a bit with maybe a change or two dealing with a short lived proximity effect to help counter a reset and de-combat. Traveling is doable I guess right now alone or with a small group but trying to help out a squad or something can be a pain trying to avoid friendly stealth.

 

The point is that a problem can't be fixed by adding more bells and whistles . This always inevitable leads to more serious and annoying problems . The more complicated things become the harder it is to fix when a problem does arise .

As I have stated in other threads , Stealth on thieves and was not a serious problem until Shadow Meld and boons were never a problem until PoF . I can understand bringing in new dynamics to the game to allow for better inclusion of classes to WvW .But the way ANET set up the specializations did exactly the opposite and made things more exclusionary . So instead of 3 or 4 Classes and/or specializations being excluded we now have most classes and specializations excluded or with very little to offer .

Fix the simple things and the rest falls into place .

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Mokk.2397" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > Stealth or stealth attacks window could be regulated a bit with maybe a change or two dealing with a short lived proximity effect to help counter a reset and de-combat. Traveling is doable I guess right now alone or with a small group but trying to help out a squad or something can be a pain trying to avoid friendly stealth.

>

> The point is that a problem can't be fixed by adding more bells and whistles . This always inevitable leads to more serious and annoying problems . The more complicated things become the harder it is to fix when a problem does arise .

> As I have stated in other threads , Stealth on thieves and was not a serious problem until Shadow Meld and boons were never a problem until PoF . I can understand bringing in new dynamics to the game to allow for better inclusion of classes to WvW .But the way ANET set up the specializations did exactly the opposite and made things more exclusionary . So instead of 3 or 4 Classes and/or specializations being excluded we now have most classes and specializations excluded or with very little to offer .

> Fix the simple things and the rest falls into place .

 

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that balance would be the preferable way to solve this. But I do not think we can count on balance patching our way out of this mess with the way CMC's post about 6-8 week balance patches essentially meaning nothing anymore.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

scrouge laughs about newbies thinking boons are op, really now. smallscale they are even, just u cannot balance that. for largescale necro mainly, then spellbreaker and lately also chronos are pretty solid at removing enemy boons.

 

marked would need a review btw. thieves should not be able to just "cleanse" it. every camp shoulda have it standardized at t2-3, and every tower shoulda get it at 50% wall/gate status if t2.

 

it could also slowly start ticking instead of just "beeing there". or beeing pulsed instead of just permaactive, with liek some seconds break inbetween.

 

the target painters are the most useless thing i know tho. siege disabler works at least with stealth, since little risk to use it that way.

 

[subversiontwo.7501]

The marked system is surely just another hackjob put in as a placeholder until proper balance could have been done, that has since just lingered in true Anet fashion.

 

However, somehow suggesting that boons are anywhere near as oppressive as stealth is laughable and its odd not aknowledging that a removal of the bad marked system also needs to come with a complete overhaul of the Thief class' stealth mechanics and possibly even a full redesign of its specialisations, where mere balance is probably not enough to create something fun and functional.

 

Like most people though, I'd rather have Thieves balanced without a bunch of tacked on extra systems made just for them and that Thieves are still stiflingly popular despite the marked system also says quite alot about where the actual balance is.

[SweetPotato.7456]

Watch tower tactic is the most hard to get from your skirmish chests.

Getting players to install target painter is also the hardest thing to do in WvW

So, while you think that it is an unfair advantage over there, it really isn't. Your sudden needs to have a boon removal trap is so far fetched that I really don't think both of the things is connected at all.

 

boon strips is like stability or interrupt or when to use a skill to counter another, when to dodge, when to kite. it has nothing what so ever to do with trap or watchtower.

 

There fore i do not think there should be a trap to remove boon. because if there is, than i want a spike trap and smoke trap and hand grenade, and a hook to throw around so i can sling away if i am outnumbered, and siege repellent trap (actually this one is good) when enemy drop a ram on your gate the ram is immediately locked down or gets when it is avalaible to be build again it needs double the amount of the usual supply) etc.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> The marked system is surely just another hackjob put in as a placeholder until proper balance could have been done, that has since just lingered in true Anet fashion.

>

> However, somehow suggesting that boons are anywhere near as oppressive as stealth is laughable and its odd not aknowledging that a removal of the bad marked system also needs to come with a complete overhaul of the Thief class' stealth mechanics and possibly even a full redesign of its specialisations, where mere balance is probably not enough to create something fun and functional.

>

> Like most people though, I'd rather have Thieves balanced without a bunch of tacked on extra systems made just for them and that Thieves are still stiflingly popular despite the marked system also says quite alot about where the actual balance is.

 

If you think 4 support builds (5 if you count the rare Chrono) basically carrying the meta is somehow less oppressive than one roamer class, well you're just wrong lol. Thieves won't be balanced to people like you til they are actually useless, and they are pretty close to that other than picking off 1 random zergling at a time.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"SweetPotato.7456" said:

> Watch tower tactic is the most hard to get from your skirmish chests.

> Getting players to install target painter is also the hardest thing to do in WvW

> So, while you think that it is an unfair advantage over there, it really isn't. Your sudden needs to have a boon removal trap is so far fetched that I really don't think both of the things is connected at all.

>

> boon strips is like stability or interrupt or when to use a skill to counter another, when to dodge, when to kite. it has nothing what so ever to do with trap or watchtower.

>

> There fore i do not think there should be a trap to remove boon. because if there is, than i want a spike trap and smoke trap and hand grenade, and a hook to throw around so i can sling away if i am outnumbered, and siege repellent trap (actually this one is good) when enemy drop a ram on your gate the ram is immediately locked down or gets when it is avalaible to be build again it needs double the amount of the usual supply) etc.

 

1. It's not removal. It's not even forbidding boons to yourself. It's forbidding boon sharing, READ.

2. If you don't use target painter that's your fault. You don't ever get to complain about stealth builds then because you refuse to try to do anything about them. I have caused zergs to wipe by target painting them on stealth push.

3. What does stealth have to do with trap or watchtower? Why is it fair for stealth to be impacted by these random things but NEVER EVER for boon spam or heal spam?

[SweetPotato.7456]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"SweetPotato.7456" said:

> > Watch tower tactic is the most hard to get from your skirmish chests.

> > Getting players to install target painter is also the hardest thing to do in WvW

> > So, while you think that it is an unfair advantage over there, it really isn't. Your sudden needs to have a boon removal trap is so far fetched that I really don't think both of the things is connected at all.

> >

> > boon strips is like stability or interrupt or when to use a skill to counter another, when to dodge, when to kite. it has nothing what so ever to do with trap or watchtower.

> >

> > There fore i do not think there should be a trap to remove boon. because if there is, than i want a spike trap and smoke trap and hand grenade, and a hook to throw around so i can sling away if i am outnumbered, and siege repellent trap (actually this one is good) when enemy drop a ram on your gate the ram is immediately locked down or gets when it is avalaible to be build again it needs double the amount of the usual supply) etc.

>

> 1. It's not removal. It's not even forbidding boons to yourself. It's forbidding boon sharing, READ.

> 2. If you don't use target painter that's your fault. You don't ever get to complain about stealth builds then because you refuse to try to do anything about them. I have caused zergs to wipe by target painting them on stealth push.

> 3. What does stealth have to do with trap or watchtower? Why is it fair for stealth to be impacted by these random things but NEVER EVER for boon spam or heal spam?

 

1) boon sharing is skill balances problem.

2) if you dont get in squad then its your problem

3) stealth tapping a keep? stealth zerging a keep? stealth flipping your whole borderland? stealth baiting people at sentry, hell the other day, this one guardian was stealth killing my people at roque quarry, he flipped it, build a golem, and then some how climbed on to the rock that is not climable , go invisible and then jumps at you and lay trap, like hello?? , you can't even watchtower or target painter to counter that.