Do you wanna hear a joke?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"Yasai.3549"

 

We can discuss boons:

 

1) Some boons do need to be AoE, but limited outside of blast finishers. Things like FGJ and PS should remain AoE. Even Stand Your Ground on Guardian and the Facets on Rev. This is where the tough balance decisions have to be made.

2) Heavily defensive boons like vigor, regen, protection, and aegis need to have their durations reduced greatly. Resistance was done right as most sources are fairly short in duration. This things should be for mitigating bursts, not nullifying bursts. That is what dodges are for. We're talking things like reducing Protective Ward's Protection to 2s from 4s or Overshield to 2s from 3s, with Group defensive boons reduced to 1-2s in duration (Competitive play only mind you)

3) Because we do not want a bunker meta we need to accept that offensive boons need a longer duration than defensive boons. Again, the defensive boons need to mitigate but not nullify bursts. For most cases a 4-5s duration is fine with self boons being allowed to last longer for very specific boons per class on very specific skills.

4) We may even should discuss the duration of barrier in competitive play as well. Are large amounts of barrier for 5s that can be reapplied appropriate at all in competitive play?

5) The Stability-CC-Stunbreak dynamic needs to be discussed. Should stab stack in intensity or should it go back to complete immunity for the duration and apply the same duration rules above for defensive boons? Should some CCs be removed from the game and replaced? Should some be allowed to deal damage? Should each class have access to a trait that allows them to do damage again, or just a few classes? Should stunbreaks be reduced in number or increased? Should stunbreaks inherently grant 1 s of stability to prevent chain CCs?

[Yasai.3549]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> @"Yasai.3549"

>

> We can discuss boons:

>

> 1) Some boons do need to be AoE, but limited outside of blast finishers. Things like FGJ and PS should remain AoE. Even Stand Your Ground on Guardian and the Facets on Rev. This is where the tough balance decisions have to be made.

> 2) Heavily defensive boons like vigor, regen, protection, and aegis need to have their durations reduced greatly. Resistance was done right as most sources are fairly short in duration. This things should be for mitigating bursts, not nullifying bursts. That is what dodges are for. We're talking things like reducing Protective Ward's Protection to 2s from 4s or Overshield to 2s from 3s, with Group defensive boons reduced to 1-2s in duration (Competitive play only mind you)

> 3) Because we do not want a bunker meta we need to accept that offensive boons need a longer duration than defensive boons. Again, the defensive boons need to mitigate but not nullify bursts. For most cases a 4-5s duration is fine with self boons being allowed to last longer for very specific boons per class on very specific skills.

 

All of the above points i feel can be addressed easily by reworking any trait which rewards powerful boons for very little.

 

Example : Incensed Response.

For Herald which has an overabundance of Fury, they reap the benefits from it too easily.

 

 

> 4) We may even should discuss the duration of barrier in competitive play as well. Are large amounts of barrier for 5s that can be reapplied appropriate at all in competitive play?

 

Buff Barrier breaking Traits.

They exist but they so weak!

 

> 5) The Stability-CC-Stunbreak dynamic needs to be discussed. Should stab stack in intensity or should it go back to complete immunity for the duration and apply the same duration rules above for defensive boons? Should some CCs be removed from the game and replaced? Should some be allowed to deal damage? Should each class have access to a trait that allows them to do damage again, or just a few classes? Should stunbreaks be reduced in number or increased? Should stunbreaks inherently grant 1 s of stability to prevent chain CCs?

 

I like the idea of Stunbreaks giving a small window of CC immunity.

 

As for Stability, let's just have a debuff for absorbing CC per stack removed, which makes them more susceptible to each application of CC afterwards, up to 4 stacks then they will no longer be immune to CC.

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"felix.2386" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > That warrior has the most weapons and thus the most play-style choices is not wrong.

> > > However, having many choices doesn't equal having many **good** choices.

> >

> > Well gw2 players only play gimmick rotations (most) , if its something that needs to put effort even if its strong... it isnt viable :\

> >

> > Reason only the most efective with lesser efort schemes end being played.... lack of design and obgitivity in class design leads to that, lots of stuff one or very few option to choose from.

> >

> > GW2 is the poor man mechanics mmo :P but dammn look at thoose shinnies!!!! it shiiiiines!

> >

>

> Wrong, top players will play whatever is best even it takes effort, actually any good pvp player will prefer skill demanding builds over braindead build.

> currently all meta builds are skill demanding, you barely see any holo/rev/tempest meta builds down there, even tho those are meta builds, because noobs can't play them.

>

> warrior's options are simply unviable, not because they are good but takes effort, they are simply bad.

 

And thats the issue :\ its rather evetry one wanting to powercreep more than the enemy to became "decent player", class damage output more plus gimmick rotation is ends being more important than player skill for most players.

 

holo is ez mode >_>.... altough a decent hammer warrior should be able to counter most, if the warrior keep shutdowning the holo.

 

Hammer warriors are amazing to counter some builds, its simply bad cause cant carry with high damage burst combo like many playing want it.... reason very high bursty builds a stated as meta.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549"

> >

> > We can discuss boons:

> >

> > 1) Some boons do need to be AoE, but limited outside of blast finishers. Things like FGJ and PS should remain AoE. Even Stand Your Ground on Guardian and the Facets on Rev. This is where the tough balance decisions have to be made.

> > 2) Heavily defensive boons like vigor, regen, protection, and aegis need to have their durations reduced greatly. Resistance was done right as most sources are fairly short in duration. This things should be for mitigating bursts, not nullifying bursts. That is what dodges are for. We're talking things like reducing Protective Ward's Protection to 2s from 4s or Overshield to 2s from 3s, with Group defensive boons reduced to 1-2s in duration (Competitive play only mind you)

> > 3) Because we do not want a bunker meta we need to accept that offensive boons need a longer duration than defensive boons. Again, the defensive boons need to mitigate but not nullify bursts. For most cases a 4-5s duration is fine with self boons being allowed to last longer for very specific boons per class on very specific skills.

>

> All of the above points i feel can be addressed easily by reworking any trait which rewards powerful boons for very little.

>

> Example : Incensed Response.

> For Herald which has an overabundance of Fury, they reap the benefits from it too easily.

That can happen in addition to nerfing the boon durations of defensive boons.

>

> > 4) We may even should discuss the duration of barrier in competitive play as well. Are large amounts of barrier for 5s that can be reapplied appropriate at all in competitive play?

>

> Buff Barrier breaking Traits.

> They exist but they so weak!

Well Warrior's Cunning was the same in all game modes when it was rolled out, and that did not last long in PvP. Still +50% in WvW. Kind of mandatory there in my opinion with the amount of barrier that can be put out.

> > 5) The Stability-CC-Stunbreak dynamic needs to be discussed. Should stab stack in intensity or should it go back to complete immunity for the duration and apply the same duration rules above for defensive boons? Should some CCs be removed from the game and replaced? Should some be allowed to deal damage? Should each class have access to a trait that allows them to do damage again, or just a few classes? Should stunbreaks be reduced in number or increased? Should stunbreaks inherently grant 1 s of stability to prevent chain CCs?

>

> I like the idea of Stunbreaks giving a small window of CC immunity.

>

> As for Stability, let's just have a debuff for absorbing CC per stack removed, which makes them more susceptible to each application of CC afterwards, up to 4 stacks then they will no longer be immune to CC.

Lets not complicate things though. Making it a short duration buff that does not get stripped, like at release, is better in my opinion. That coupled with stunbreaks granting 1s of stab upon successful stunbreaks should be enough.

 

 

[felix.2386]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"felix.2386" said:

> > warrior has been stuck as side noder in PvP for 8 years untill now

> It's a support now

>

> > and banner slave since 2012 in PvE.

> Unique effects are OP in pve, but you can play non-bannerslave warrior and be viable.

 

Yes it is support now, back in vanilla there was a small time that warrior was also meta support with shoutheal.

but that doesnt change the fact that anything other then heal build play the same. even heal build is the same sword/wh shoutheal..

there's literally no build craft for war. every thing play the same. support no matter how you build it's all shoutheal, damage no matter how you build it's always gs/shield.

 

While S/S herald, Power renegade play completely different.

Thief changed from s/d condi to s/p drd to d/p core to p/d condi core to d/p drd in one year, all play different

guardian side noder build has symbol core to fb scepter sage to fb sword mender, all play different.

engi had rifle holo to protection holo to s/sh holo and there's decap scrapper all play different in only 1 year

etc.

 

while damage warrior build has been playing the exact same play style with gs/shield since 2012.

literally warrior is the class with the least viable weapon combo since 2012 even tho it has access to the most weapons..

 

 

[Vancho.8750]

Only if Warrior could use more then 2 bundles of weapons at a time, every other class has more then 2 bundles that i can use, necro for example has 3 by default.

If warrior could slot another weapon so it can use the large number of weapons it has it would be nice, but till then you have 2 slots and you use the best one gs shield and whatever one hander has better kit this time around, and all the other weapons are ignored cause they are total garbage for one reason or another but mainly for pvp at least, you don't have fucking mobility without gs and shield is simple yet good way to protect yourself the rest of the off hands do not bring anything good, maybe if warrior had some utility that works like shield block it can be dropped.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

>every other class has more then 2 bundles that i can use

 

Since when?

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> >every other class has more then 2 bundles that i can use

>

> Since when?

Since forever, the only weapon bundle that warrior can get is rampage, lets see Ele has 4 bundles + utility bundle weapons, Guardian got tomes on FB so that is 2 weapon sets and 3 weapon bundles, Engi 1 weapon bundle and multiple utility weapon bundles, ranger has druid for celestial and 2 weapons sets and on Soulbeast it gets to use 3 pet abilities that are weapon skills and are from the big hitter kind, which leaves thief with two sets of weapons that do not have cds and revenant that can swap utilities and since it has low weapon pool all of its weapons are really really strong.

Warrior did have allot of bundles with banner but they were bad and instead of reworking them to be good they just deleted that function. Warrior has allot of weapons but even the best ones have dead skills on them and the worst ones are quite bad and allot of hoops have to jumped with builds and what not to make one even barely functional. Warrior has allot of options but not many are functional. As it stands each weapon on warrior has to be really powerful since you can get only two at a time but most of them are treated like ele weapon skills.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > >every other class has more then 2 bundles that i can use

> >

> > Since when?

> Since forever, the only weapon bundle that warrior can get is rampage,

 

Soo... it has an additional one then?

And seeing what you've decided to count for other classes, it's interesting that somehow you don't count warrior's burst skills (per weapon choice) and spb's FC, but somehow ranger losing a pet swap for 3 skills is the equivalent of another whole weapon swap?

Engi can't swap weapons and uses utility slots to gain those swaps just like warrior can use rampage on top of having a preeeeeeetty kitten limited weapon choices in the first place.

Thief exchanging weapon cds for another type of resource is straight up irrelevant as it's not an equivalent of what you've been talking about.

Neither is revenant with its small weapon pool.

FB should lose weapon swap, I agree. :mrgreen:

 

>but even the best ones have dead skills on them and the worst ones are quite bad and allot of hoops have to jumped with builds and what not to make one even barely functional.

 

Welcome to gw2, this is not a strictly warrior problem and yes, I think they should work on that, but realistically (IF they ever start working on useless utlity/weapons skills +traits) I don't think the community will ever be satisfied. In the end some choices will always be better than the other in specific situations or modes and the community will always complain that "they have to use x because it is better at y". You can notice that for example in a lot of cases if people want a "better offhand to replace shield", they'll mostly want a "shield+", which means something that brings the shield utility they value and then add something on top of it. Tired of running greatsword? Well, give me something that has utility of greatsword, but more dmg or additional utility on top of it. What happens if they get that weapon? They'll keep picking that one instead of shield/gs/whatever and then start complaining that it's just "worse than the new weapon so what's the point". I don't think these weapons should really compete against each other, they should present different gameplay options and in this case you'll almost inevitably have "the one that's the best in a specific mode". Adding another weapon swap doesn't exactly fix a lot, I think it will just invite more nerfs to individual weapon skills because now you can spam them more and have answer for any situation (which is probably why soulbeast lost the pet swap in the first place?).

 

>Warrior has allot of options but not many are functional. As it stands each weapon on warrior has to be really powerful since you can get only two at a time but most of them are treated like ele weapon skills.

 

A lot of them are functional, they're just not optimal for a given scenario. Saying that they need to be especially powerful for warrior "because they only get two" (yes, just like most of other classes) feels like your personal bias towards a single class.

[Caedmon.6798]

""Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle. Adrenaline fuels their offensive power—the longer warriors stay in a fight, the more dangerous they become."" :#

 

 

 

 

[Atomos.7593]

Even the phrase not optimal is probably an understatement here. A lot of the weapon choices and their relative effectiveness leaves me scratching my head when thinking about why I would ever choose such a weapon over the much better available options.

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > >every other class has more then 2 bundles that i can use

> > >

> > > Since when?

> > Since forever, the only weapon bundle that warrior can get is rampage,

>

> Soo... it has an additional one then?

> And seeing what you've decided to count for other classes, it's interesting that somehow you don't count warrior's burst skills (per weapon choice) and spb's FC, but somehow ranger losing a pet swap for 3 skills is the equivalent of another whole weapon swap?

> Engi can't swap weapons and uses utility slots to gain those swaps just like warrior can use rampage on top of having a preeeeeeetty kitten limited weapon choices in the first place.

> Thief exchanging weapon cds for another type of resource is straight up irrelevant as it's not an equivalent of what you've been talking about.

> Neither is revenant with its small weapon pool.

> FB should lose weapon swap, I agree. :mrgreen:

>

> >but even the best ones have dead skills on them and the worst ones are quite bad and allot of hoops have to jumped with builds and what not to make one even barely functional.

>

> Welcome to gw2, this is not a strictly warrior problem and yes, I think they should work on that, but realistically (IF they ever start working on useless utlity/weapons skills +traits) I don't think the community will ever be satisfied. In the end some choices will always be better than the other in specific situations or modes and the community will always complain that "they have to use x because it is better at y". You can notice that for example in a lot of cases if people want a "better offhand to replace shield", they'll mostly want a "shield+", which means something that brings the shield utility they value and then add something on top of it. Tired of running greatsword? Well, give me something that has utility of greatsword, but more dmg or additional utility on top of it. What happens if they get that weapon? They'll keep picking that one instead of shield/gs/whatever and then start complaining that it's just "worse than the new weapon so what's the point". I don't think these weapons should really compete against each other, they should present different gameplay options and in this case you'll almost inevitably have "the one that's the best in a specific mode". Adding another weapon swap doesn't exactly fix a lot, I think it will just invite more nerfs to individual weapon skills because now you can spam them more and have answer for any situation (which is probably why soulbeast lost the pet swap in the first place?).

>

> >Warrior has allot of options but not many are functional. As it stands each weapon on warrior has to be really powerful since you can get only two at a time but most of them are treated like ele weapon skills.

>

> A lot of them are functional, they're just not optimal for a given scenario. Saying that they need to be especially powerful for warrior "because they only get two" (yes, just like most of other classes) feels like your personal bias towards a single class.

I don't count the burst skills cause they are embedded on the weapon so if the burst skill is good but the weapon not really or vice versa you are stuck, while the rest of the classes get to chose their main mechanic outside weapons, that is why guardian gets to have so many builds, the main mechanic, the weapons and the utilities are all separate and warrior gets to be stuck on 16 skills(17 on SB) it is all about options and warrior lacks them.

You will always need discipline for warrior to function cause warrior has to do bursts and that 5 second swap makes all the difference if. Lets say warrior got to pick one more weapon by losing an utility it would be done. For ranger getting 3 rev or warrior weapon skills or utilities is way better then having to swap between 2 dumb AI pets(another can worms in the game for me). Thief and rev have 2 main mechanics and warrior is stuck on one. Both of these have embedded gap closers on class mechanics or weapons, while warrior has to pick certain weapons to be able to hold onto a target.

Arenanet saw how people play warrior in 2012 and left it at that, as it stands the limited design of warrior will just swing by being too powerful or useless cause it lacks options even though it is presented to have them.

[Girth.9731]

> @"Telgum.6071" said:

> This one from the wiki

> 

>

 

The problem isn't really that most weapons are bad, its just a few are so good you can't really pass them up. There is a reason that warrior meta has been more or less GS + X/Sh for almost 8 years now. I don't see that changing any time soon.