Conditions Vs Power Debate

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> >

Now that you mention it regeneration never did get a rework and over time the access of it has been getting reduced, it also works really wonky with the sources of healing and healing power, like this stat barely works under certain circumstances and it is totally broken in others. So healing power should probably be the anti condition stat like what toughness is for power but that part of the game is under developed.

Also i find an issue with reducing condition cleanse, cause over the years the access of different condition types have been increased to the sky, before a class would have one main condition to do its damage but now they have 2 or sometimes more. But the damage of conditions is not the real issue the so called 'cover' conditions that people like to downplay them, are really really powerful. Cripple, Chill, Immobilize are probably most powerful ccs in the game yet they are called soft, you can break out of stun but if that cleanse 2 skill leaves one those 3 you are still royally screwed. Also you have to fill your bar and traits with condi cleanse for low emergency stacks and burst condition cleanse skills, when condition is the meta, builds become anti condition and ways to play the game get reduced like when FB Scourge was the thing.

There is also that condi application works terribly with all the floaty telegraphs if they have any or the lingering pulsing AoEs that hit you even if you dodge and slap 3 to 4 different conditions on you or they are spammable low effort skills with high impact. There is also that some condition weapons have wack scaling and probably have better power scaling then power weapons, currently is the grenade kit and rev shortbow .

All these issues stem from that the game never did stick to some design philosophy and arenanet tends to backtrack on their decisions for some classes while not reverting the change for others (the EE thing on engi as an example). Conditions as a concept are a core idea but they haven't been tackled in a proper manner in 8 years, that is plenty of time to implement a basic main feature but instead it has been made a mess over the years.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"Ragnar.4257" I disagree with conditions being less interactive then power, if anything they are more interactive, since you have more ways to work around them.

True.

 

Since more direct damage reductions (toughness as the most obvious one) exist in the game than condition damage reductions, there is also more passive direct damage mitigation. The existence of a handful of passive condi cleanses does not change that. For most cleanses you have to press a button.

[Swagger.1459]

@"Vallun.2071"

 

"I didn't want to say it, but generally if youre complaining about condition damage builds, you just need to get good and deal with conditions better."

 

You can't blame players for underdeveloped and shallow game mechanics. And regardless of the facts that the Devs always wanted to make e-sports a thing for GW2, most of the mechanics and profession designs are centered around PvE play.

 

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"Ragnar.4257" I disagree with conditions being less interactive then power, if anything they are more interactive, since you have more ways to work around them.

Conditions are noninteractive because you have to play the UI and not the game, condition skills also add to that cause the best ones are terribly telegraphed or just area denial. Most condition skills are floaty with no indication how strong the skill is which also makes the playstyle boring cause there is not weight behind the attacks. Also the proc based condi based builds are the epitome of non interaction, the power version of procs got nerfed hard (except for engi cause why the fuck not, damn long range, close range , power, condi , tank hybrid passive proc thing).

[Deus Fatorum.2473]

I don't hate on Condi or power I hate on builds that are either not fun to play or play against. Take nade holo I actually don't mind fighting it but due to it being as powerful as it is I do not find engineer fun to play as spamming nades is not a fun playstyle for me. Similarly builds that camp stealth or focus on bunker decap roles I find boring to fight as 90% of the time the fight is inactive.

 

I get that there are more nuances to it all, but at the end of the day it is a game, and games should be fun to play. So if a meta is not fun to play for x, y, or z reason I think that should be addressed whether through players helping other players learn to fight in it in an enjoyable manner or through developers tweaking things.

 

Lastly I feel metas get boring and less fun if they do not change for extended periods of time. Harking back to my nade holo example, it may have been fun and original the first month it saw play but eventually players get bored of it. Rarely have I seen metas that are fun to play for upwards of a year with no change, regardless of how fun that meta was when it first came to be. Variety is important, not that every build needs to be meta all the time, but change it up a little here and there.

[jsp.6912]

there is no debate, atm condi is bad

[CutesySylveon.8290]

Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

[Wolfric.9380]

Intresting discussion and a lot is personal taste. I just came back after two years. I main tempest and i think always will unless some realy exiting spec is in the next expansion. Weaver did not catch me. Had been very sucessful and loved the unusual version i used. Currently too rusty to dodge in the right moment but lets see how long i need to get back into it. Beside that i hate corruping necromancers ruining my day :-). I don´t like glass cannons and to some extent condi bunkers. Both feel too one dimensional for me. I need that swiss army knife feeling and group saving gameplay. The only other class i play to a decent level is a CC warrior type used in pvp as backup runner to replace or compliment the thief.

I think it´s a good example of a hybrid build that brings condi defence.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGwAs2ZlJwWYOsGWJOSP3tfA-zZh8USQBkpEofhQCjAVNA

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Confusing_Images

 

First of all, Confusion belong to Mesmer Profession lore. Secondly, Rune of Perplexixty was Never to be shared with other Professions other than its Rightful Profession-Mesmer and should be removed from all other Professions, mechancis, skills, traits, runes and sigils and to be returned soely and accordingly to Mesmer Profession

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Perplexity

 

Lastly and Interstingly, Torment Rightful Professions are- Warrior, Necromancer, Mesmer, Ranger and Elementalist. Yes!!, Elementalist Profession is also capable of inducing Torment

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Torment_creature

 

Torment should be removed from all other Profession, mechanics, skills, traits, runes and sigils and to be returned soely and accordingly to their Rightful Professions-- Necromancer, Warrior, Elementalist, Ranger and Mesmer Profession.

 

Confusion and Torment are meant for their Rightful Professions,

 

**Only!!**

**Period!!**

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

additional notes regarding Torment-

 

'The Mouth of Torment'

 


 

 

 

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mouth_of_Torment

 

'It was here that Abaddon and his Margonites challenged the power of the Five True Gods, and here that the other gods smote the God of Secrets down, imprisoning him and his following in a Realm of Torment. This once beautiful land is now a crater littered with the trappings of a god. And above it the Mouth of Torment hangs, a weakness in the world, a globe of pure evil, beckoning all to their doom.'

 

 

 

[Quadox.7834]

cba responding to everything but your main argument is basically that condis are as compliated as, or more complicated than, power. which is true - if forcing you to constantly look at your UI is what good complexity is to you. the game would be better if it had been designed with only debilitating conditions (immob, blind etc) in mind. DoT could still exist in this environment, see guardian focus 4.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

 

Fair. In my opinion, confusion is good, but torment needs to significantly lower its passive damage that equals bleed damage. Instead, have it be something like confusion; awful if you're not moving, but when you do move, have it do as much as bleed as a punishment for not paying attention.

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

So something can't be bad design or annoying to play against if its beatable?

 

Wowzers.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

>

> Fair. In my opinion, confusion is good, but torment needs to significantly lower its passive damage that equals bleed damage. Instead, have it be something like confusion; awful if you're not moving, but when you do move, have it do as much as bleed as a punishment for not paying attention.

 

Confusion is less of a problem than it used to be, but I don't think there should be a mechanic that damages on skill use, it's not something I think should exist in a PvP environment. Classes being restricted to skill use by CD, thief and rev being exceptions to an extent, shouldn't be solved by making skill use actively punish you with damage, especially when it's cleanse skills meant to deal with conditions themselves.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Confusing_Images

>

> First of all, Confusion belong to Mesmer Profession lore. Secondly, Rune of Perplexixty was Never to be shared with other Professions other than its Rightful Profession-Mesmer and should be removed from all other Professions, mechancis, skills, traits, runes and sigils and to be returned soely and accordingly to Mesmer Profession

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Perplexity

>

> Lastly and Interstingly, Torment Rightful Professions are- Warrior, Necromancer, Mesmer, Ranger and Elementalist. Yes!!, Elementalist Profession is also capable of inducing Torment

>

> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Torment_creature

>

> Torment should be removed from all other Profession, mechanics, skills, traits, runes and sigils and to be returned soely and accordingly to their Rightful Professions-- Necromancer, Warrior, Elementalist, Ranger and Mesmer Profession.

>

> Confusion and Torment are meant for their Rightful Professions,

>

> **Only!!**

> **Period!!**

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------

>

> additional notes regarding Torment-

>

> 'The Mouth of Torment'

>

> 

>

>

>

>

> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mouth_of_Torment

>

> 'It was here that Abaddon and his Margonites challenged the power of the Five True Gods, and here that the other gods smote the God of Secrets down, imprisoning him and his following in a Realm of Torment. This once beautiful land is now a crater littered with the trappings of a god. And above it the Mouth of Torment hangs, a weakness in the world, a globe of pure evil, beckoning all to their doom.'

>

>

>

 

I don't care about lore at all, I'm not fighting lore in PvP. One class having it is just as much of a problem as all of them because I don't think any of them should have it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

> >

> > Fair. In my opinion, confusion is good, but torment needs to significantly lower its passive damage that equals bleed damage. Instead, have it be something like confusion; awful if you're not moving, but when you do move, have it do as much as bleed as a punishment for not paying attention.

>

> Confusion is less of a problem than it used to be, but I don't think there should be a mechanic that damages on skill use, it's not something I think should exist in a PvP environment. Classes being restricted to skill use by CD, thief and rev being exceptions to an extent, shouldn't be solved by making skill use actively punish you with damage, especially when it's cleanse skills meant to deal with conditions themselves.

 

confusion doesnt punish you for skill use, you can happily use skills while under confusion.

only thing confusion punishes is utter skill spamming, taking 1-2k damage per skill use is not a real big deal unless you proc it 5 times or ridiculous number like that, and even then its still no better then beefy barrage.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" I disagree with conditions being less interactive then power, if anything they are more interactive, since you have more ways to work around them.

> Conditions are noninteractive because you have to play the UI and not the game, condition skills also add to that cause the best ones are terribly telegraphed or just area denial. Most condition skills are floaty with no indication how strong the skill is which also makes the playstyle boring cause there is not weight behind the attacks. Also the proc based condi based builds are the epitome of non interaction, the power version of procs got nerfed hard (except for engi cause why the kitten not, kitten long range, close range , power, condi , tank hybrid passive proc thing).

 

you always play UI, be it looking at enemy if he has might/quickness/stab or if he cleansed your vulnerability if he has signets ready or on cooldown.

you should look at your own bar to look if boons get stripped, or if you get vuln/cripple/chill etc and how long it lasts anyways. you dont have to be glued to them to know whats going on, realistically you should know how much damage you are going to take with very high accuracy from experience alone, and use the bar to fill in the gaps.

If anything power damage is HARDER to anticipate due to crit/no crit and how stupid weakness is. same skill can hit for 1k glance or 6k crit, roll the dice. conditions are more consistent.

and what condi "procs" do you even mean? there is nothing there, you get hit and take amage or you dont.

the only "passive" thing that comes to mind is doom sigil ( that acts as cover condi and - healing and not damage source ) and thief venoms, which again. dont deal much and have to be spammed rapidly and thus you can avoid huge parts of it. or maybe you mean guards burn? you know the build nobody plays cuz it sucks.

from semi-viable condi builds there is nothing passive, closest thing you get is condi core necro.

as it is right now power builds are more forgiving and passive then condi which is hilarious to me, since all power players put themselves on the pedestal and look at "condi" plebeians.

 

EDIT

to sum it up, I would rather play " UI with conditions " then play the dice with power damage.

 

[Aplethoraof.2643]

>> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> Condition builds, for the most part, are designed around pulsing AoE fields, and spamming chip attacks for on-hit/on-crit effects. There's nothing important to dodge, it's just an endless bombardment of tiny attacks.

 

One other problem (mostly a L2P problem IMO) is that a lot of people make the active choice to walk towards AoEs or Stand in them.

 

A lot of success I've had in fighting other condition builds in sPvP at-least is simply to not stand in their AoE burst. I see them laying down AoEs, I move. I wait for 5 seconds until their AoEs are finished (pelting them with ranged attacks) and then I dive back in.

 

It is also nice to have either a firebrand, tempest, or necromancer support around. I find those three clear a lot of conditions off the team (assuming the team doesn't stand in the aforementioned pulsing AoEs - which a lot of people do). And playing as condition myself (most of the time), I find it really difficult to do a good job of applying pressure when I am fighting a team with support. During the instances where people don't just walk into my AoEs - I also find I have to time out my burst a lot more.

 

Dodge out of them. Yeah, you can occasionally get CCed into them. Use Stability or Stun Break + Dodge Out. You'll get CCed into power attacks as well.

 

 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

> > >

> > > Fair. In my opinion, confusion is good, but torment needs to significantly lower its passive damage that equals bleed damage. Instead, have it be something like confusion; awful if you're not moving, but when you do move, have it do as much as bleed as a punishment for not paying attention.

> >

> > Confusion is less of a problem than it used to be, but I don't think there should be a mechanic that damages on skill use, it's not something I think should exist in a PvP environment. Classes being restricted to skill use by CD, thief and rev being exceptions to an extent, shouldn't be solved by making skill use actively punish you with damage, especially when it's cleanse skills meant to deal with conditions themselves.

>

> confusion doesnt punish you for skill use, you can happily use skills while under confusion.

> only thing confusion punishes is utter skill spamming, taking 1-2k damage per skill use is not a real big deal unless you proc it 5 times or ridiculous number like that, and even then its still no better then beefy barrage.

 

At what point does skill use become skill spam? Using the same skill twice in a row with thief is considered spam by some people. Confusion punishes skill **use**, end of story. Taking 1-2k damage every time you use a skill is ridiculous, especially if you have to use skills quickly for any reason, like stun breaking and cleansing. Congratulations, you just took upwards of 4k damage.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"CutesySylveon.8290" how is taking 1-2k dmg/pop ridiculous ? if you trigger it 3 times its 3-6k damage, how is this significant at all? its not more then average power hit thats for sure. 1 confusion will deal about ~170 dmg/trigger so you need whooping 12 stacks to even take those 2k triggers.

that is usually 2 skills or more. if you get hit by several skills you are SUPPOSED to take damage. and when you think about confusion all it is a GARBAGE daze that can by bypassed by using health. The only people that take any significant pressure from confusion are trigger happy dummies that trigger their quickness and brainlessly go ham.

what day and age to complain about confusion, the worst fucking condition in the game.

 

EDIT

the only thing confusion is "unfun" against are insta cast skills, like shouts, shatters, attunements.

but even as a mesmer player that has usually at the very least 6 instant skills I still never take any real damage from confusion, never did.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" how is taking 1-2k dmg/pop ridiculous ? if you trigger it 3 times its 3-6k damage, how is this significant at all? its not more then average power hit thats for sure. 1 confusion will deal about ~170 dmg/trigger so you need whooping 12 stacks to even take those 2k triggers.

> that is usually 2 skills or more. if you get hit by several skills you are SUPPOSED to take damage. and when you think about confusion all it is a GARBAGE daze that can by bypassed by using health. The only people that take any significant pressure from confusion are trigger happy dummies that trigger their quickness and brainlessly go ham.

> what day and age to complain about confusion, the worst kitten condition in the game.

>

> EDIT

> the only thing confusion is "unfun" against are insta cast skills, like shouts, shatters, attunements.

> but even as a mesmer player that has usually at the very least 6 instant skills I still never take any real damage from confusion, never did.

 

What you're conveniently forgetting is that the confusion damage is confusion by itself. This isn't taking into account any other forms of damage being received. Confusion is a bad mechanic to have in a PvP setting, no matter how bad it is. I don't care if it did 1 damage on skill use with 30 stacks, there shouldn't be a system that punishes skill use by damaging the user. It and retaliation need to go.

 

Edit: 6k is 1/3 of a 18k hp character. If you think that's insignificant, then you're just shilling.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"CutesySylveon.8290" how is taking 1-2k dmg/pop ridiculous ? if you trigger it 3 times its 3-6k damage, how is this significant at all? its not more then average power hit thats for sure. 1 confusion will deal about ~170 dmg/trigger so you need whooping 12 stacks to even take those 2k triggers.

> > that is usually 2 skills or more. if you get hit by several skills you are SUPPOSED to take damage. and when you think about confusion all it is a GARBAGE daze that can by bypassed by using health. The only people that take any significant pressure from confusion are trigger happy dummies that trigger their quickness and brainlessly go ham.

> > what day and age to complain about confusion, the worst kitten condition in the game.

> >

> > EDIT

> > the only thing confusion is "unfun" against are insta cast skills, like shouts, shatters, attunements.

> > but even as a mesmer player that has usually at the very least 6 instant skills I still never take any real damage from confusion, never did.

>

> What you're conveniently forgetting is that the confusion damage is confusion by itself. This isn't taking into account any other forms of damage being received. Confusion is a bad mechanic to have in a PvP setting, no matter how bad it is. I don't care if it did 1 damage on skill use with 30 stacks, there shouldn't be a system that punishes skill use by damaging the user. It and retaliation need to go.

>

> Edit: 6k is 1/3 of a 18k hp character. If you think that's insignificant, then you're just shilling.

 

taking 33% of someones life with 3 abilities while they have a chance to avoid it by not spamming and cleansing is VERY insignificant. most power builds can easy peasy do this much with 1 skill usually even more, and the only way to avoid it is dodge lol.

everything in pvp is toxic, damage is toxic, CC is toxic, mobility is toxic. how about we remove CC entirely since its toxic, remove cripple since moving slow is toxic, remove ranged attacks since thats toxic too.

the only thing that is wrong with confusion is the fact that its fucking bad, thats all there is to it.

nobody dies to it, you can bomb someone with over 30 stacks and as long as you dont panic you are fine.

 

And btw, OFC someone is going to keep hitting you after they apply confusion, expecting otherwise is like expecting holo to stop hitting you after landing good barrage, its not how it works.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> the game would be better if it had been designed with only debilitating conditions (immob, blind etc) in mind. DoT could still exist in this environment, see guardian focus 4.

 

huh that would be interesting.

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Ragnar.4257" I disagree with conditions being less interactive then power, if anything they are more interactive, since you have more ways to work around them.

> > Conditions are noninteractive because you have to play the UI and not the game, condition skills also add to that cause the best ones are terribly telegraphed or just area denial. Most condition skills are floaty with no indication how strong the skill is which also makes the playstyle boring cause there is not weight behind the attacks. Also the proc based condi based builds are the epitome of non interaction, the power version of procs got nerfed hard (except for engi cause why the kitten not, kitten long range, close range , power, condi , tank hybrid passive proc thing).

>

> you always play UI, be it looking at enemy if he has might/quickness/stab or if he cleansed your vulnerability if he has signets ready or on cooldown.

> you should look at your own bar to look if boons get stripped, or if you get vuln/cripple/chill etc and how long it lasts anyways. you dont have to be glued to them to know whats going on, realistically you should know how much damage you are going to take with very high accuracy from experience alone, and use the bar to fill in the gaps.

> If anything power damage is HARDER to anticipate due to crit/no crit and how stupid weakness is. same skill can hit for 1k glance or 6k crit, roll the dice. conditions are more consistent.

> and what condi "procs" do you even mean? there is nothing there, you get hit and take amage or you dont.

> the only "passive" thing that comes to mind is doom sigil ( that acts as cover condi and - healing and not damage source ) and thief venoms, which again. dont deal much and have to be spammed rapidly and thus you can avoid huge parts of it. or maybe you mean guards burn? you know the build nobody plays cuz it sucks.

> from semi-viable condi builds there is nothing passive, closest thing you get is condi core necro.

> as it is right now power builds are more forgiving and passive then condi which is hilarious to me, since all power players put themselves on the pedestal and look at "condi" plebeians.

>

> EDIT

> to sum it up, I would rather play " UI with conditions " then play the dice with power damage.

>

How it is hard to anticipate crits, they will always crit cause everyone is running around with 70% crit chance. Stop trying to make it like condi builds are so bad, ooo there is only necro bull, i've been fucking around with condi druid(supposedly one of the worst classes in the game hah), and i'm using all of the stuff i mentioned pulsing AoEs check, bad telegraphs check, random procs check at the end of the game top damage kills and healing just by spamming stuff off cooldown and when they run out off condi cleanse drop the bomb, easy to notice too cause they can't move from the immobilize.

The condition system is not refined and probably never will be, cause each condition has really, really strong effect and they can be layered, they are offense and defense at the same time.

[Exedore.6320]

> @"Vallun.2071" said:

> Conditions used to be terrible in guild wars 2 before the massive trait rework in preparation for the first expansion.

**This is absolutely false**

Decap engi was condi, there were condi necro variants, and both d/d ele (before trait rework) and cele rifle engi relied on condi for a significant chunk of their damage. I'm sure I missed a few.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> > Conditions used to be terrible in guild wars 2 before the massive trait rework in preparation for the first expansion.

> **This is absolutely false**

> Decap engi was condi, there were condi necro variants, and both d/d ele (before trait rework) and cele rifle engi relied on condi for a significant chunk of their damage. I'm sure I missed a few.

IMO its *sort of true* in the sense that full condi builds where not that good - instead people used hybrid builds.

The reason that went away? HoT powercreep turned everything up to 11 and forced most sPvP/WvW hybrids to make a choice - either go stupid OP power for roflstomp damage or go stupid OP condi for superbunkering. Then PoF turned that 11 up to 5678321145 and just solidified the choice.

 

Today we are at a point where its just two sides of the same coin. Power *need* the damage to beat condi and condi *need* the sustain to beat power.