Conditions Vs Power Debate

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" how is taking 1-2k dmg/pop ridiculous ? if you trigger it 3 times its 3-6k damage, how is this significant at all? its not more then average power hit thats for sure. 1 confusion will deal about ~170 dmg/trigger so you need whooping 12 stacks to even take those 2k triggers.

> > > that is usually 2 skills or more. if you get hit by several skills you are SUPPOSED to take damage. and when you think about confusion all it is a GARBAGE daze that can by bypassed by using health. The only people that take any significant pressure from confusion are trigger happy dummies that trigger their quickness and brainlessly go ham.

> > > what day and age to complain about confusion, the worst kitten condition in the game.

> > >

> > > EDIT

> > > the only thing confusion is "unfun" against are insta cast skills, like shouts, shatters, attunements.

> > > but even as a mesmer player that has usually at the very least 6 instant skills I still never take any real damage from confusion, never did.

> >

> > What you're conveniently forgetting is that the confusion damage is confusion by itself. This isn't taking into account any other forms of damage being received. Confusion is a bad mechanic to have in a PvP setting, no matter how bad it is. I don't care if it did 1 damage on skill use with 30 stacks, there shouldn't be a system that punishes skill use by damaging the user. It and retaliation need to go.

> >

> > Edit: 6k is 1/3 of a 18k hp character. If you think that's insignificant, then you're just shilling.

>

> taking 33% of someones life with 3 abilities while they have a chance to avoid it by not spamming and cleansing is VERY insignificant. most power builds can easy peasy do this much with 1 skill usually even more, and the only way to avoid it is dodge lol.

> everything in pvp is toxic, damage is toxic, CC is toxic, mobility is toxic. how about we remove CC entirely since its toxic, remove cripple since moving slow is toxic, remove ranged attacks since thats toxic too.

> the only thing that is wrong with confusion is the fact that its kitten bad, thats all there is to it.

> nobody dies to it, you can bomb someone with over 30 stacks and as long as you dont panic you are fine.

>

> And btw, OFC someone is going to keep hitting you after they apply confusion, expecting otherwise is like expecting holo to stop hitting you after landing good barrage, its not how it works.

 

Dodging is the only way to avoid power damage is to dodge? You must have forgotten blocks, blinds, and other sources to drastically mitigate damage like weakness, protection, and toughness. This is also off topic. As I said, I don't care how many stacks does any number of damage, how good or bad it is, or how many classes have access to it; damage on skill use should not be a thing in a PvP setting. Spam isn't a thing.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> > > Conditions used to be terrible in guild wars 2 before the massive trait rework in preparation for the first expansion.

> > **This is absolutely false**

> > Decap engi was condi, there were condi necro variants, and both d/d ele (before trait rework) and cele rifle engi relied on condi for a significant chunk of their damage. I'm sure I missed a few.

> IMO its *sort of true* in the sense that full condi builds where not that good - instead people used hybrid builds.

> The reason that went away? HoT powercreep turned everything up to 11 and forced most sPvP/WvW hybrids to make a choice - either go stupid OP power for roflstomp damage or go stupid OP condi for superbunkering. Then PoF turned that 11 up to 5678321145 and just solidified the choice.

>

> Today we are at a point where its just two sides of the same coin. Power *need* the damage to beat condi and condi *need* the sustain to beat power.

 

and this is the reason why Profession Diversity and Roles do not exist in Guild Wars 2. Every Professions want Total Control of Power+Conditions Equally and feel entitled to them because there were no specific rules set in place for Profession diversity.

 

Whereas Guild Wars 1 specified each roles and identity of Profession and enforced what roles they play.....Guild Wars 2 in the other hand.....completely disregards their lore and their true sense of being..

 

-As Guild Wars 2 predecessor, this may be the only solution to the matter once and for all-

 

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/110490/bring-back-the-holy-trinity

[Rukia.4802]

Condi was extremely well designed in GW1, except blind top kek but how rare was that anyway. I only remember SoM on mes and maybe ele blinding flash in pvp. They just need a degen system like that and remove condi stat all together but they shot themselves in the foot already there is no going back now it will always be a clown mechanic that isn't fun to fight against unless you are built to directly counter it. Imagine just building for a single dmg stat and all condi still being useful with proper rot pressure like it should be not ridiculous burst equal or superior to power.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > > Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

> > > >

> > > > Fair. In my opinion, confusion is good, but torment needs to significantly lower its passive damage that equals bleed damage. Instead, have it be something like confusion; awful if you're not moving, but when you do move, have it do as much as bleed as a punishment for not paying attention.

> > >

> > > Confusion is less of a problem than it used to be, but I don't think there should be a mechanic that damages on skill use, it's not something I think should exist in a PvP environment. Classes being restricted to skill use by CD, thief and rev being exceptions to an extent, shouldn't be solved by making skill use actively punish you with damage, especially when it's cleanse skills meant to deal with conditions themselves.

> >

> > confusion doesnt punish you for skill use, you can happily use skills while under confusion.

> > only thing confusion punishes is utter skill spamming, taking 1-2k damage per skill use is not a real big deal unless you proc it 5 times or ridiculous number like that, and even then its still no better then beefy barrage.

>

> At what point does skill use become skill spam? Using the same skill twice in a row with thief is considered spam by some people. Confusion punishes skill **use**, end of story. Taking 1-2k damage every time you use a skill is ridiculous, especially if you have to use skills quickly for any reason, like stun breaking and cleansing. Congratulations, you just took upwards of 4k damage.

 

Skill usage becomes skill spam at this very exact point:

 

* When immediately burning through skills right when they are off of CD has only reward and no drawbacks for not thinking about what you're doing.

[felix.2386]

easy.

condi is easier to play,

because

 

1. condi skills are easier to land

2. it only takes one stat to do good condition damage, and there's trailblazer and dire stats and in pvp there's carrion.

while with power, if you want damage, you gotta take way less tankier stats.

3. tho condi is easier to counter with build. condi build itself is also very hard to kill thanks to tanky stats

so basically you either win or you are just very hard to lose. but if a power build decide to counter build against condi, then it has basically 0 sustain against power, while condi build thanks to the nature of the stats are tanky against both.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Rukia.4802" said:

> Condi was extremely well designed in GW1, except blind top kek but how rare was that anyway. I only remember SoM on mes and maybe ele blinding flash in pvp. They just need a degen system like that and remove condi stat all together but they shot themselves in the foot already there is no going back now it will always be a clown mechanic that isn't fun to fight against unless you are built to directly counter it. Imagine just building for a single dmg stat and all condi still being useful with proper rot pressure like it should be not ridiculous burst equal or superior to power.

 

it really was that simple. i would've been 1000000000% happier with a gw1 reskin honestly.

[Dantheman.3589]

Conditions exist and so do condi stats, so conditions shouldn’t be so weak that they aren’t allowed in the game = summation. Think what you want but unless they can think of a different type of stat arrangements than there’s no reason to not have viable condi builds.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> Conditions exist and so do condi stats, so conditions shouldn’t be so weak that they aren’t allowed in the game = summation. Think what you want but unless they can think of a different type of stat arrangements than there’s no reason to not have viable condi builds.

 

Honestly in plat + it's pretty balanced right now and exactly where it should be.

 

It's the people who are gold division and lower that get trashed by stupid builds like a pure burn guardian or a condi druid. These are the kinds of people that repeatedly button mash a skill instead of clicking it once when they get a stack of confusion on them, or who use their cleanse skills the moment they see 3 stacks of bleed instead of saving it to clear the obvious condi burst that is about to happen. These kinds of complaints are truly coming from a place of l2p.

 

**Although I agree that condition builds can easily become wildly over powered A LOT easier than power builds can, truthfully the ratio of strength between power & condi is very balanced right now. Condi may be designed around cheese mechanics, but it really is in line with power right now.**

 

What are we even looking at in this current patching? No one has really highlighted this yet:

 

1. Core Guard - The better builds are hybrid damage. Above 1500+ these builds really are not problematic unless people tunnel vision the idea of standing on the node with the Core Guard as if there were no other options, and in that case it is the player's own fault for getting shredded by a Core Guard.

2. Dragonhunter - Obviously these function the best with power damage.

3. Firebrand - Lots of variants can be used here. Lately the damage output from Firebrand actually feels balanced for once, regardless of it is power or condi.

4. Core War - Guy has to use power, always.

5. Berserker - Guy has to use power, always. Condi sucks on Berserker in pvp/wvw.

6. Spellbreaker - Always power, even if it's Healbreaker.

7. Rev / Herald / Ren - I mean, condi is still somewhat viable but kind of not. All 3 of these are running power nowadays.

8. Core Engi - Doesn't matter if you run power or condi, it's bad regardless.

9. Scrapper - Operates best off of power for sure.

10. Holo - EXPLOSIVES 131 GRENADE SAIYAN MODE BERSERKER AMULET

11. Core Ranger - Condi memes only work in low tier, don't be fooled. Good Core Ranger play is still power based.

12. Druid - Condi Druid memes only work in casual play, it's really bad in higher tier play. In fact, Druid is just bad in general for so many reasons. But if you want a Druid build to work, it actually works best with hybrid power & condi damage, with amulets like Marshal or Sage. Druids with longbows are a weak Core Ranger. Power based Druids do not work right now.

13. Soulbeast - Condi memes are a dream here. Condi sucks on Soulbeast. Soulbeast is in every way designed to be a power based class, and it indeed works best with glass cannon power setups.

14. Core Thief - PD Condi is the dominant build right now.

15. DP Daredevil - All Power

16. Deadeyes - I see some try to use condi but it's bad. If they want to be viable at all, they have to run power.

17. Mes / Chrono / Mirage - Lately the variation in build structures here has been large. I see full power setups, full condi setups, hybrid setups, between Mes, Chrono, and Mirage. Some of these builds can be quite effective at times, depending of their particular setup can counter w/e is the match against them. It's hard to say if Mes / Chrono / Mirage is power or condi or hybrid dominant here.

18. Ele/Tempest/Weaver - These builds lately don't have a meta outside of Tempest. Obviously Tempest is power dominant, but it spits enough rando condi to almost be considered a hybrid. Weaver on the other hand, I've seen many setups with power & condi & hybrid, but by far the most effective Weaver I've seen within current patching was Grimjack running a complete glass cannon Fresh Air Weaver. After seeing it played properly, I'd say that Weaver should be using glass cannon power setups.

19. Core Necro - Operates best with hybrid power & condi.

20. Reaper - Obviously all power outside of supplemental condis such as chill.

21. Scourge - Condi and more condi and more condi.

 

Yeah so if you actually review that, it shows that:

 

* 16 out of 27 specs are best optimized with raw power damage

* 9 out of 27 specs are best optimized for hybrid power & condi

* and only 2 out of 27 specs are best optimized for condi

 

Make of it what you want. I just found the statistics behind that interesting enough to post.

[KrHome.1920]

When players are talking about "condi" then they are refering to one or two specific builds most of the time. That lack of differentiation is a good indicator for which skill level you can expect from that player.

 

Nobody is talking about direct damage is "broken" after a loss to explosive holo or burst soulbeast or lich. But it's the same kind of logic.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"CutesySylveon.8290" ofc power damage can be mitigated by blocking,dodging,aegis, blind, los, interupting and other shit but its pointless to point them out ( pun intended ) since they all do the same shit. Its like saying that you dont have to CLEANSE conditions since you can also CONVERT them or toss them on someone else, defensive wise thats same shit so its poitless to have the lists.

bottom line is the power hit either hits you or it doesnt, conditions have much longer line in between and I find that interesting, if you cant hold on to spamming for 2s after getting confusion bombed then maybe you deserve to take damage? in reality you get hit by a skill that applies confusion, you are SUPPOSED to take damage, and you are the one deciding how much are you going to take. In a way you get extra decision to make, how much HP are you willing to trade for extra combat time?

and spam most definitely should be punished for it, most if not all games do it. in shooters you run out of ammo if you spray like a blind monkey with ak, in mobas you run out of mana if you keep missing etc, only in this game the only thing you pay for skill is time to cast and time to recover the skill.

and the sooner you use the skill the sooner you get it back to use it again, so by spamming you get to use the skill more often, and thus are rewarded for it.

[UNOwen.7132]

Conditions are generally a fair bit weaker than power because of condition cleanses. They are also a lot less fun or engaging for both sides because of condition cleanses (and condi application design). Condi isnt really a balance problem, its a design problem right now. It basically boils down to "do you have cleanses?" If no, you die. If yes, you dont. Its incredibly binary and puts a major restriction on builds. An issue further exarcerbated by how condis are applied. With power, the big hits are generally telegraphed. Use active defenses to avoid them, and youll be fine. Stuff like dodges, blocks etc. are great vs power for that reason. Vs condi, not so much. The issue there is that usually the majority of condi damage comes from sources you cant actively avoid. Whether its instant skills, on-X effects (that require you to avoid 100% of what the enemy is doing, which simply isnt possible) or pulsing fields. This means active defenses are pretty worthless, and you *need* cleanses to stand a chance.

 

Honestly, I think the solution is to just make it so cleanses can only remove debilitating conditions (like weakness, cripple, etc.) and tune condis around that. Significantly lower damage, make application actually avoidable, and the design of condis would be fine.

[Vancho.8750]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Conditions are generally a fair bit weaker than power because of condition cleanses. They are also a lot less fun or engaging for both sides because of condition cleanses (and condi application design). Condi isnt really a balance problem, its a design problem right now. It basically boils down to "do you have cleanses?" If no, you die. If yes, you dont. Its incredibly binary and puts a major restriction on builds. An issue further exarcerbated by how condis are applied. With power, the big hits are generally telegraphed. Use active defenses to avoid them, and youll be fine. Stuff like dodges, blocks etc. are great vs power for that reason. Vs condi, not so much. The issue there is that usually the majority of condi damage comes from sources you cant actively avoid. Whether its instant skills, on-X effects (that require you to avoid 100% of what the enemy is doing, which simply isnt possible) or pulsing fields. This means active defenses are pretty worthless, and you *need* cleanses to stand a chance.

>

> Honestly, I think the solution is to just make it so cleanses can only remove debilitating conditions (like weakness, cripple, etc.) and tune condis around that. Significantly lower damage, make application actually avoidable, and the design of condis would be fine.

Honestly the best take in this thread. What I worry about is that I have rarely seen properly balanced DoT damage in any game and I don't think I can handle second coming of something like Scourge again. What I've seen is that the DoT classes get way more defenses then they need and somehow require running hard counters against them, best examples I can think of right now are Affliction Warlocks in WoW and fucking Teemo from League. Also the stat weights in GW2 are kinda bad and supposedly healing power should be the counter to DoTs , we can all agree that that stat is weak and not really great all rounder, cause it can be used only by specific classes and I don't think that many classes can pull off Mender amulet to win vs condi builds.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > > > Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

> > > > >

> > > > > Fair. In my opinion, confusion is good, but torment needs to significantly lower its passive damage that equals bleed damage. Instead, have it be something like confusion; awful if you're not moving, but when you do move, have it do as much as bleed as a punishment for not paying attention.

> > > >

> > > > Confusion is less of a problem than it used to be, but I don't think there should be a mechanic that damages on skill use, it's not something I think should exist in a PvP environment. Classes being restricted to skill use by CD, thief and rev being exceptions to an extent, shouldn't be solved by making skill use actively punish you with damage, especially when it's cleanse skills meant to deal with conditions themselves.

> > >

> > > confusion doesnt punish you for skill use, you can happily use skills while under confusion.

> > > only thing confusion punishes is utter skill spamming, taking 1-2k damage per skill use is not a real big deal unless you proc it 5 times or ridiculous number like that, and even then its still no better then beefy barrage.

> >

> > At what point does skill use become skill spam? Using the same skill twice in a row with thief is considered spam by some people. Confusion punishes skill **use**, end of story. Taking 1-2k damage every time you use a skill is ridiculous, especially if you have to use skills quickly for any reason, like stun breaking and cleansing. Congratulations, you just took upwards of 4k damage.

>

> Skill usage becomes skill spam at this very exact point:

>

> * When immediately burning through skills right when they are off of CD has only reward and no drawbacks for not thinking about what you're doing.

 

So using the same skill on thief and no others isn't spam because it has no CD? Yeah, no. Ele spams on a regular basis then just by sheer number of skills by this standard. Spam isn't an issue, and damage on skill use isn't how you fix it even if it were.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" ofc power damage can be mitigated by blocking,dodging,aegis, blind, los, interupting and other kitten but its pointless to point them out ( pun intended ) since they all do the same kitten. Its like saying that you dont have to CLEANSE conditions since you can also CONVERT them or toss them on someone else, defensive wise thats same kitten so its poitless to have the lists.

> bottom line is the power hit either hits you or it doesnt, conditions have much longer line in between and I find that interesting, if you cant hold on to spamming for 2s after getting confusion bombed then maybe you deserve to take damage? in reality you get hit by a skill that applies confusion, you are SUPPOSED to take damage, and you are the one deciding how much are you going to take. In a way you get extra decision to make, how much HP are you willing to trade for extra combat time?

> and spam most definitely should be punished for it, most if not all games do it. in shooters you run out of ammo if you spray like a blind monkey with ak, in mobas you run out of mana if you keep missing etc, only in this game the only thing you pay for skill is time to cast and time to recover the skill.

> and the sooner you use the skill the sooner you get it back to use it again, so by spamming you get to use the skill more often, and thus are rewarded for it.

 

Notice every example of punishing 'spam' was by using up a resource and not being damaged. You don't take damage for wasting all your mana or bullets, there are no self damaging mechanics on skill use for blowing all your resources. Spam isn't an issue, and damage on skill use should never be in a PvP setting, I don't know how many times I have to say it. Idc if it does 1 damage per minute per 5 skills cast, it shouldn't exist at all.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> > > Conditions used to be terrible in guild wars 2 before the massive trait rework in preparation for the first expansion.

> > **This is absolutely false**

> > Decap engi was condi, there were condi necro variants, and both d/d ele (before trait rework) and cele rifle engi relied on condi for a significant chunk of their damage. I'm sure I missed a few.

> IMO its *sort of true* in the sense that full condi builds where not that good - instead people used hybrid builds.

> The reason that went away? HoT powercreep turned everything up to 11 and forced most sPvP/WvW hybrids to make a choice - either go stupid OP power for roflstomp damage or go stupid OP condi for superbunkering. Then PoF turned that 11 up to 5678321145 and just solidified the choice.

>

> Today we are at a point where its just two sides of the same coin. Power *need* the damage to beat condi and condi *need* the sustain to beat power.

 

Not sure I agree, I think condi builds in this game are usually hybrid builds by default simply because condition weapons still deal significant power damage while the other way around is not the case. Carrion is also a hybrid amulet just as celestial was. For example, mirage axe is a condition weapon but it still has decent power coefficients (actually better than sword), and it would be a waste not to use them. In other cases, condis are added as procs to other attacks, such as we see on burn guard and incendiary powder engi or dhummfire necro.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > > > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > > > > Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Fair. In my opinion, confusion is good, but torment needs to significantly lower its passive damage that equals bleed damage. Instead, have it be something like confusion; awful if you're not moving, but when you do move, have it do as much as bleed as a punishment for not paying attention.

> > > > >

> > > > > Confusion is less of a problem than it used to be, but I don't think there should be a mechanic that damages on skill use, it's not something I think should exist in a PvP environment. Classes being restricted to skill use by CD, thief and rev being exceptions to an extent, shouldn't be solved by making skill use actively punish you with damage, especially when it's cleanse skills meant to deal with conditions themselves.

> > > >

> > > > confusion doesnt punish you for skill use, you can happily use skills while under confusion.

> > > > only thing confusion punishes is utter skill spamming, taking 1-2k damage per skill use is not a real big deal unless you proc it 5 times or ridiculous number like that, and even then its still no better then beefy barrage.

> > >

> > > At what point does skill use become skill spam? Using the same skill twice in a row with thief is considered spam by some people. Confusion punishes skill **use**, end of story. Taking 1-2k damage every time you use a skill is ridiculous, especially if you have to use skills quickly for any reason, like stun breaking and cleansing. Congratulations, you just took upwards of 4k damage.

> >

> > Skill usage becomes skill spam at this very exact point:

> >

> > * When immediately burning through skills right when they are off of CD has only reward and no drawbacks for not thinking about what you're doing.

>

> So using the same skill on thief and no others isn't spam because it has no CD? Yeah, no. Ele spams on a regular basis then just by sheer number of skills by this standard. Spam isn't an issue, and damage on skill use isn't how you fix it even if it were.

 

You missed the point entirely bud.

 

A Thief is _greatly_ punished for misusing initiative.

 

Some class/build designs have little to no reason at all to actually stop and think about what order the skills are being used in or if they should wait to use a skill. <- That's the point where skill usage just becomes face rolling mindless spamming as soon as something is off CD.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > ...

> ...

u need to update your dh opinions

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> Confusion and Torment shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. People try to say Confusion is meant to be anti spam when it's actually anti action, same with torment and movement, and retaliation in general. These things need to be removed and classes balanced accordingly.

 

Oh wow. Do not try GW1 PvP. The game is basicly full with mechanics like confusion/torment/retaliation, except several orders of magnitude stronger. The precursor of these things in GW1 are mainly mesmer hexes that kill you for using/not using specific kind of skills and actions.

Also it's funny that the last remnants of what made early GW2 PvP better compared to other MMO-s is what you think should be removed from the game. Anti-action awareness check mechanics add depth to the game, if you remove them you'll end up with a game that's significanly dumber.

[Dahkeus.8243]

Loved the video posted on this. @"Vallun.2071" I really appreciate all the stuff good content you continue to contribute. Lots of great builds and insightful discussion that often seems harder to find for the PvP side of GW2 than it does for PvE.

 

As far as the condi vs power stuff goes, I've so often found myself playing power builds because they're generally more fun from my perspective. It's not inherently because of the damage type being power, but more because condi builds tend to have so much less mobility than power builds do. Condi builds also seem to take up more utility slots than power does; particularly with ranger and thief.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"CutesySylveon.8290"

 

I mean, I'll go ahead and give you a realistic run down here of what is spammy and what isn't:

 

* Warrior/Berserker/Spellbreaker - Actual offensive builds like Strength Spellbreaker are not spammy. Those kinds of builds are seriously punished for misusing important skills such as GS3 or Shield5 or even when failing a burst or when misusing utilities. These kinds of builds often have to wait to use skills and require a high skill cap to understand how and when to use the skills so the build can do its job.

* Guardian/DH/FB - Current Core Guard is spammy as hell. No offense but seriously. There is a minimal amount of accuracy required for puking AoE onto the ground for people to stand in. A Core Guard's offense is skill spam to the point that is ultra rewarding to use the skills as soon as possible immediately when they are off cool down. Core Guard's precision play comes in with how to more accurately use its survival techniques, which in my opinion isn't spammy at all. Dragonhunter weapon skills are just as spammy as Core Guard, but the DH has large precision play when it comes to its F1 pulling & bursting with traps. When it comes to that, it is not rewarding to spam the skills off CD, the DH needs to wait and think about what he is doing. Firebrand is odd to explain. With FB the weapon skills are again spammy in nature and rewarding to spit out all over the place with no regard for CD. The tomes & utilities are also somewhat rewarding when being used in a spammy manner, but much more rewarding if used by experienced FBs who can better optimize the usage.

* Rev/Herald/Ren - These are by nature not spammy. This is like Thief initiative where the Rev / Herald / Ren are punished for mismanaging the usage or by whiffing the usage. This is very true with power variants of Rev/Herald, a bit less true with condi Rev/Herald variants. Lately though, and even after play testing it myself, I feel that current Renegade is definitely spammy. The energy usage for what it does is too low for how powerful it is both offensively & defensively. You can actually completely whiff your offensive actions and have plenty of energy on reserve to just spam the attacks off cool down as soon as they can be used again, and the same goes for its defenses. Current Renegade is definitely a spammy playstyle and it shouldn't be for how powerful it is.

* Engi/Scrapper/Holo - Core Engi & Scrapper are not spammy. One could argue Scrapper was half spammy but Engi & Scrapper are indeed punished for misusing or whiffing their offense & defense. Both of them need to land important combos to seal kills or to ensure survival & disengage. Current Holo on the other hand is definitely half spammy to arguably full skill spam. The cool downs on what Sword Grenade Kit 131 Nuclear Saiyan Holo does are all very low or not present at all "grenade kit" so the Holo can afford to completely whiff an offense, and his forge comes back in 5s which is rewarding to literally spam everything in it immediately when you go into the forge, and the Grenade Kit has no CD to spam what is currently one of the most powerful ranged attacks in the game competitively. Even its defensive CDs such as Elixir S toolbelt stealth are on a very low CD for what they do, and are rewarding to use immediately for sneaky offenses as soon as it is convenient. As over powered as Holo currently is, I still wouldn't say it is full spam myself. It is only half spammy, as it is punished to some degree for missing with certain important skills.

* Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye - These are the least spammy classes/builds in the game and I shouldn't have to explain why. These builds are labeled as "high risk high reward" for a reason, and they are greatly punished for misusing initiative or utility cool downs. When I say greatly punished, I mean they can get caught for 1s and instantly explode and die.

* Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast - Core Ranger is half spammy. It needs to keep throwing out skill usage offensively and defensively to survive. It actually can't afford to stop and really wait to use skills. It sort of can delay skill usage, and wise Rangers can perceive when to delay usage of a skill, but it's important for a Ranger to cycle through all CDs of a weapon side before the 9s to swap is up, otherwise the Ranger missing opportunity to land damage and to use defensive CDs that must be used for survival. Its defensive side is just as half spammy or arguably full spam actually. It needs to be utilizing its defensive utilities as often as it can because those utilities are priming a lot of things like prot & regen, which in the long run you want to be benefitting as often as possible. Druid is just as spammy for almost the same exact reasons. Soulbeast is not spammy at all. It is like a Thief in the aspect that it MUST make sure it knows exactly when and why it is using its cool downs, because its offense is its defense. One could say Soulbeast is "high risk high reward". You can't just go in on a Soulbeast and start rotating through skills like you would on a Core Guard or Renegade, and honestly I notice that this makes the difference between good Soulbeast players and bad ones. The bad ones go into skirmish with the mind frame that they are going to begin blowing of CDs as quickly as they can to maximize their skill usage output or something, and it just doesn't work that way with Soulbeast.

* Mes/Chrono/Mirage - These can variants that are high risk high reward and not spammy at all, or variants that are overly defensive and nothing but the very epitome of skill spam. Berserker Power Shatter is a fine example of high risk high reward not spammy at all, and classic overly defensive Infinite Horizon Mirage play is a fine example of the very bottom line epitome of skill spam.

* Ele/Tempest/Weaver - Same thing here as Mes, Ele builds can be very high risk high reward and really need to think about what they are doing before doing it such as Fresh Air glass cannons, or they can be a big armored dump truck that seeks to cycle through defensive CDs as quickly as they can spam, like current Tempest. Of course an experienced Tempest is more effective than an inexperienced one, but they are both seeking to swap attunements and cycle skill effects as quickly as possible. So in this aspect, the Tempest is like the Core Ranger in that it can delay skill usage for a very short time to sort of time it better, but it has to use those skills before swapping or the opportunity to do so goes null and it's a wasted interval of CD. Not using the skill is like having it go on CD without it actually be on CD so you may as well use it when you're in the attunement. This kind of class design just entirely front loads the purpose of the archetype to be spammy in nature without really putting much thought into when or why a skill must be used, other than it should be used when a player knows the CD after swapping attunement will be there regardless.

* Necro/Reaper/Scourge - Core Necro is ultra spammy. This is by far the #1 easiest class to spam literally every weapon skill including shroud off cool down, with little to no consequence at all for mismanagement. A Necro can quite seriously use its weapon skills in any order, both swaps in any order, and in no way is it punished anything like what a Warrior or Thief is punished for if they mismanage or use the wrong skill at the wrong time. The class design of Necro is setup so it is nothing but rewarding to spam every skill off CD as soon as possible. Reaper is much more punishing and requires a similar level of attention to detail as a Warrior or Thief, honestly. If a Reaper whiffs on an offense, he's screwed. If he mismanages his shroud, he gets screwed. I like to look at Reaper as middle risk middle reward. Reaper is not spammy because he cannot afford to spam skills off CD without thinking. He has to wait and really consider why and if it'll be a good idea, and often save certain skills for certain purposes. Scourge is just as spammy as Core Necro for all of the same reasons.

 

So if you actually read all of that, it's interesting to see that there is a pattern going on here:

 

High risk high reward builds are not spammy at all, and most of those are pure power oriented builds. These builds do not spam skills off CD. They have to wait and use certain skills appropriately & correctly & for specific reasons, or these builds explode and die. This applies to both weapon skills and all utilities.

 

It's the slow immobile tanky things that have designs that require little to no thinking concerning the order of skill usage, and little to no reason at all for waiting to use a skill, which makes the gameplay ultra spammy. I guess this is quite exactly what makes a good team fighter a good team fighter when I really stop to think about it. Everything about these types of builds are forgiving while rolling around inside of a pixel storm where precision play is hard to perform.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > > > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> > > > Conditions used to be terrible in guild wars 2 before the massive trait rework in preparation for the first expansion.

> > > **This is absolutely false**

> > > Decap engi was condi, there were condi necro variants, and both d/d ele (before trait rework) and cele rifle engi relied on condi for a significant chunk of their damage. I'm sure I missed a few.

> > IMO its *sort of true* in the sense that full condi builds where not that good - instead people used hybrid builds.

> > The reason that went away? HoT powercreep turned everything up to 11 and forced most sPvP/WvW hybrids to make a choice - either go stupid OP power for roflstomp damage or go stupid OP condi for superbunkering. Then PoF turned that 11 up to 5678321145 and just solidified the choice.

> >

> > Today we are at a point where its just two sides of the same coin. Power *need* the damage to beat condi and condi *need* the sustain to beat power.

>

> Not sure I agree, I think condi builds in this game are usually hybrid builds by default simply because condition weapons still deal significant power damage while the other way around is not the case. Carrion is also a hybrid amulet just as celestial was. For example, mirage axe is a condition weapon but it still has decent power coefficients (actually better than sword), and it would be a waste not to use them. In other cases, condis are added as procs to other attacks, such as we see on burn guard and incendiary powder engi or dhummfire necro.

 

I actually agree with this, which is why if they don't revert burn and poison applying more than one stack, then they need to bring down the amount of condition stacks output per skill. What many don't realize is that it's not only the condition ticks per second that's bringing you down, it's also consistent power damage from the skill itself, despite being a bit lower it still adds up per second.

[Swagg.9236]

If they were both "necessary," then you wouldn't have entire weapon sets or classes more or less pigeonholed into one or the other. You could easily balance the game around either (although one could imagine how silly it would look if the only way to deal damage in the game was through DoTs). Better yet, you could return Guild Wars conditions to what they originally were: conditional triggers with low, fixed damage rates and a high opportunity cost; used primarily to enhance certain skills in order to provide greater depth in build variety and effectiveness. Guess we can't have that, though.

[Zinzon.4081]

The post addressed the stats but not the trait lines. Condis can afford to go tankier trait line while affecting less of their dps while dps has less options if they want to actually kill things before condis wear them down. Also the fact is, as long as the condi player plays passively without massive mistake vs a power player, he will win the duel. You want to bait out condi cleanse and bomb them after that, but it is also the strenght of condis build. So there is literally no drawback for a condi build facing a power build unless the power build is able to pack enough pressure to make collapse the passive play style of the condi user. And that is the flaw about it and what is unfun about it, both must be engaging gameplay.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Zinzon.4081" said:

> The post addressed the stats but not the trait lines. Condis can afford to go tankier trait line while affecting less of their dps while dps has less options if they want to actually kill things before condis wear them down. Also the fact is, as long as the condi player plays passively without massive mistake vs a power player, he will win the duel. You want to bait out condi cleanse and bomb them after that, but it is also the strenght of condis build. So there is literally no drawback for a condi build facing a power build unless the power build is able to pack enough pressure to make collapse the passive play style of the condi user. And that is the flaw about it and what is unfun about it, both must be engaging gameplay.

 

Wrong. You can't have it all. If you take tanky stats you are weak on damage and automatically countered by builds with moderate cleansing.

 

If you take hybrid stats because you have to (PvP) or because you lack damage otherwise, you are at a disadvantage to power builds due to playing glass when you're dealing damage over time rather than burst.

 

You may or may not be able to compensate with traits. But usually you don't have many options for condi viable trait lines, so that's not reality either.

[Renzo.8361]

> @"darren.1064" said:

> Did you just make a whole post about why conditions are better and then end it with "if youre complaining about condition builds, you just need to get good and deal with conditions better?"

 

For real. What an absurdly biased OP.