On one side:"PvP is dead"..on another side:"We need more nerfs"

[felix.2386]

you do realize what started the killing of gw2 pvp was the start of the power creep from HoT release, right?

[suialthor.7164]

> @"Jekkt.6045" said:

>

> It's less about map design and more about game mode. The only map where customized builds were ever relevant was old skyhammer (and old spirit watch.. but eh..) where fear necro, hammer guard, focus mesmer and wire thief were played. You could argue about thief/mes in old times where they were almost mandatory on khylo and temple. Or sword for bunker guard on khylo. These days it really doesn't matter anymore. Djinn's is probably the worst thief map in the game but nobody cares anyway.

>

> I'm not aware of what is meta in wvw, but don't forget, wvw balance is different and they have runes/foods/sigils/stats that are not available in pvp.

>

> I've been playing stronghold for the past couple of days and i can confidently tell you stuff that's good in conquest isn't necessarily good in stronghold (and vice versa). Turns out, standing on a node 90% of the game is quite build limiting.

 

I should have included map objective because what you said is absolutely true. However, I think things like the size of the control point and line of sight around (or potentially in) them can also impact balance of builds. Imagine if all control points were the size of Foefire's center. Many builds that depend on trapping and/or stacking aoe in a small control point will be less efficient even if they become more strategic in how they use those abilities. Some builds that can easily knock people off small control points will struggle to do the same in a larger one. Now start adjusting line of sight in and around those larger control points.

[Khalisto.5780]

On one side you wasting your time on forums on the other side you are not playing the game

[Yasai.3549]

> @"Jekkt.6045" said:

 

> we have many bloated skills currently that do too much and don't require big brain plays to get maximum value. the goal should be skills that do multiple things under different circumstances, making them strong when used correctly instead of just... making them strong.

 

I think it's due to a design hindsight, especially when designing something new.

That's kinda why PoF specs are all Power crept and extremely powerful.

 

Okay, take Holosmith for example, since it is kinda one of the most troublesome specs in competitive modes.

At first glance, it all looks simple and cool, providing a different playstyle to Engi which doesn't rely on kits.

 

When it comes to their skills, it looks pretty tame too.

That's when yu start reading the tooltip and find out each Exceed skill has a "basic" version, an "empowered" version when above 50% Heat with way stronger effects, and some of the Exceeds also have a flip skill which ALSO has a basic and empowered version.

 

And in addition to that, each Exceed also has a Toolbelt utility which are absurdly strong in their own right as utilities.

Ignoring the lesser used Exceed skills, let's just take a look at the most used one : Photon Wall

 

While Photon Wall's basic projectile hate and flip skill to launch is pretty acceptable, I wanna bring attention to the toolbelt utility.

Particle Accelerator is on a 10s cooldown.

 

They have a 106 (0.4) damage skill on a 10 second cooldown which gives themselves Swiftness, Cripples enemies, has 1000 range and hits up to 5 people.

On a 2000 Power build, this thing can deal 900~ damage without crit, and 1800~ damage with 200% Crit damage, which is a pretty easy number to achieve on a typical Power Holo build.

 

That's just the extent of how overloaded a single skill and all relating skill effects are in PoF.

 

**I'm not saying that this skill is winning all of Holo's fights, it's just an example of how PoF power creep has destroyed balance because there a bunch of other skills littered amongst the PoF Especs which are similarly overloaded**

 

Another example is Deadeye's Binding Shadow, which immobs, inflicts poison, inflicts vuln, knockdown if the target is marked, removes boons.

 

 

 

[FrownyClown.8402]

Me and my dad had this same conversation years ago. I argued that pvp was better when they did regular updates and balance didnt matter. My dad argued that nerfing things to balance the game caused a healthier state of pvp. I thought i was right until my dad beat me with a pair of jumper cables.

[Jekkt.6045]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Jekkt.6045" said:

>

> > we have many bloated skills currently that do too much and don't require big brain plays to get maximum value. the goal should be skills that do multiple things under different circumstances, making them strong when used correctly instead of just... making them strong.

>

> When it comes to their skills, it looks pretty tame too.

> That's when yu start reading the tooltip and find out each Exceed skill has a "basic" version, an "empowered" version when above 50% Heat with way stronger effects, and some of the Exceeds also have a flip skill which ALSO has a basic and empowered version.

 

Because the design of these skills sucks.

It's basically: do something baseline. after you do stuff you do anyway (forge, gain heat), do something better.

 

They could have gone for crazy haywire stuff when you overheat, making skills do something different because they don't function properly anymore. something along the lines of:

 

example skill baseline function:

cleanse 3 damaging conditions

 

example skill overheat function:

apply 3 damaging conditions (to target)

 

or in the case of hard light arena

base skill yada protection

 

overheat function:

everybody inside it takes more damage (well, or maybe just the enemy team)

 

with the way holo skills are designed you get rewarded for stuff you would do anyway. that's not choice.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

> @"suialthor.7164" said:

> > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > More meaningful means a variety of things, but even that basically breaks down into doing reworks of the abilities and systems in the game to give everything more meaning...and in particular more meaningful interactions with other skills.

> >

>

> How does reworking abilities not result in nerfs/buffs for classes? If all you do is give more complexity you are still buffing many builds.

 

It's true, it is just another way to buff/nerf. The better way though. It's makes the game more interesting than just a straight coefficient nerf or CD increase would ever.

 

Opens the door to tradeoffs; simultaneous buffs and nerfs at once, and it would increase variety among builds for classes. That's why the balance person should be able to interact with the skill's team and skills should continue to be split between modes.

 

The best balance changes to competitive games and sports have been done this way whereas straight nerfs and takeaways have killed many more.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> On one side:"PvP is dead"..on another side:"We need more nerfs"

 

Isn't it what we call: "Beating a dead horse"?

[Woltarion.6829]

> @"Supreme.3164" said:

> There is no best way to describe the current situation than using a **famous quote**

> 

>

> The more you nerf...the more the game stagnate because people will always gravitate toward the "least effort=biggest reward" gameplay , which will always exist in a game with 9 different professions and will continue to do so unless you "virtuall" remove all but a single profession and a single build or...change all professions to a carbon copy of the same profession to give people the illusion of choice ( I tend to believe that this is what people really want in the end).

>

> The idea itself that you should have always a "fair" fight in a MMO is what has brought us here, the idea itself that a MMO should be treated like a PvP game...it's again: insane. **MMO are all about collaboration between professions/jobs to reach a common goal not for you to have a glorius 1v1**.

>

> I blame Anet for not curbing this wrong ideology , Anet should have never allowed for this way of thinking to proliferate ...........

>

> Anyway the game itself is already **unsalvageable** for a good part, the mentality of the playerbase cannot be changed and people will keep asking for nerfs until everything is a "fair fight" in their mind but...there won't be a game to play by that time..truly a shame, this game could have been so much more...but it's far too late for anything now

 

I would like to agree with you, however using a misattributed quote is not usefull : https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/

[Kuma.1503]

> @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > There is no best way to describe the current situation than using a **famous quote**

>

> First. Not only Einstein never said this, but the man probably was too smart to describe insanity in such a crude manner scope wise.

>

> Second. There's a difference between repeating the same thing and missing the mark when adjusting, most of people requesting nerfs, legitimate or not, don't get what they were seeking most of the time and don't get to make conclusions from the results of their suggestions because those rarely, if never, take form. They request shovels to dig something, they're mostly given hammers like once a year, then you come out of the bush to point out how more shovels won't solve the situation while they still struggle to dig with their hammers.

>

> Of course there will be stronger specs and best builds but if the performance difference between builds of roughly the same purpose with different specs/classes could be like 20% instead of 50% it will already be excellent.

 

Some of us come in and inspect the hole, we notice that the sides are all lumpy. It's much too big in some areas and much too narrow in others. We can't exactly blame the diggers... they've been digging with hammers.

 

We suggest adding dirt back to the areas where the hole is too wide. "No", say the people digging the hole "We just need to take more from the other side. It will even things out".

 

"But then the hole will be too big" Say the onlookers.

 

"We can't add dirt back or we'll end up back at square one"

 

So they begin hacking away at the other side of the hole with their hammers...

 

 

[otto.5684]

I check patches for buffs. No buffs? Okay, 3 more month I won’t play pvp. I doubt I will ever will, aside from occasional games here and there. SPvP needs a Feb 2020 level patch to be playable. I do not think that will ever happen. It is easy for devs to fuck up. It is far harder for them to admit they did and correct mistakes.

 

SPvP in GW2 is done.

[Starbreaker.6507]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> I check patches for buffs. No buffs? Okay, 3 more month I won’t play pvp. I doubt I will ever will, aside from occasional games here and there. SPvP needs a Feb 2020 level patch to be playable. I do not think that will ever happen. It is easy for devs to kitten up. It is far harder for them to admit they did and correct mistakes.

>

> SPvP in GW2 is done.

 

I get what you're trying to say, but knowing ANet they'll make it as bad as the Feb 2020 (or worse) and people will be begging for this garbage meta back =)

[Klypto.1703]

> @"Starbreaker.6507" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > I check patches for buffs. No buffs? Okay, 3 more month I won’t play pvp. I doubt I will ever will, aside from occasional games here and there. SPvP needs a Feb 2020 level patch to be playable. I do not think that will ever happen. It is easy for devs to kitten up. It is far harder for them to admit they did and correct mistakes.

> >

> > SPvP in GW2 is done.

>

> I get what you're trying to say, but knowing ANet they'll make it as bad as the Feb 2020 (or worse) and people will be begging for this garbage meta back =)

 

Basically Anet as anyone knew them is pretty much gone for good its just Ncsoft holding onto a few people who they didn't fire or who didn't leave with the mass exodus in 2019. So its essentially playing gw2 is no different than playing the original game now because its just that dead now population wise and creative/development wise as well. Plus they seem more interested in trying to enforce technicalities on copyrights on the new studio they are trying to make rather than moving on with this games development. Overall though we've basically seen what was going on behind the scenes with Anet and NCsoft and the result ended up becoming PoF and then both entities exploding on each other until it all fizzled out and died. It would be great if something good was happening with this game but I highly doubt its going to continue on much further might not even be operating a year from now.

[Starbreaker.6507]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > @"Starbreaker.6507" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > I check patches for buffs. No buffs? Okay, 3 more month I won’t play pvp. I doubt I will ever will, aside from occasional games here and there. SPvP needs a Feb 2020 level patch to be playable. I do not think that will ever happen. It is easy for devs to kitten up. It is far harder for them to admit they did and correct mistakes.

> > >

> > > SPvP in GW2 is done.

> >

> > I get what you're trying to say, but knowing ANet they'll make it as bad as the Feb 2020 (or worse) and people will be begging for this garbage meta back =)

>

> Basically Anet as anyone knew them is pretty much gone for good its just Ncsoft holding onto a few people who they didn't fire or who didn't leave with the mass exodus in 2019. So its essentially playing gw2 is no different than playing the original game now because its just that dead now population wise and creative/development wise as well. Plus they seem more interested in trying to enforce technicalities on copyrights on the new studio they are trying to make rather than moving on with this games development. Overall though we've basically seen what was going on behind the scenes with Anet and NCsoft and the result ended up becoming PoF and then both entities exploding on each other until it all fizzled out and died. It would be great if something good was happening with this game but I highly doubt its going to continue on much further might not even be operating a year from now.

 

Rumor has it that another expansions wasn't even something that Anet was going to do and that NCsoft forced their hand into making it.

 

Considering in both PvP and PvE that they've ran out of ideas a while ago, I can't wait to see what a clusterf* the new xpac is going to be

[Lucio.4190]

I've seen lots of games falling into the nerf trap. It always ended up with nerfing next profession, then the next and eventually they've been through all professions a couple of times.

In what way have the players tried to be able to beat the build that is said to be overpowered? Just like someone said, the build is based on some certain attributes, which means the tactics rely on that. If you build a character with another profession and race, but still focus on the same tactics and attributes, you probably will have a very hard time to win the fight. But is there a way to neutralize those attributes, make sure they don't get the opportunity to even get into the fight by using another tactic and other attributes?

 

I'm thinking that maybe it's us players that need to think of how we play, if we can think out of the box and maybe try other builds (that are not based on Condition Damage?) before we shout out for a nerf? Because when you realize that you have spent lots of hours on a character, that now has been a lot harder to fight with (some may say "worthless"), that feeling can make people lose interest.

 

 

[Axl.8924]

> @"Lucio.4190" said:

> I've seen lots of games falling into the nerf trap. It always ended up with nerfing next profession, then the next and eventually they've been through all professions a couple of times.

> In what way have the players tried to be able to beat the build that is said to be overpowered? Just like someone said, the build is based on some certain attributes, which means the tactics rely on that. If you build a character with another profession and race, but still focus on the same tactics and attributes, you probably will have a very hard time to win the fight. But is there a way to neutralize those attributes, make sure they don't get the opportunity to even get into the fight by using another tactic and other attributes?

>

> I'm thinking that maybe it's us players that need to think of how we play, if we can think out of the box and maybe try other builds (that are not based on Condition Damage?) before we shout out for a nerf? Because when you realize that you have spent lots of hours on a character, that now has been a lot harder to fight with (some may say "worthless"), that feeling can make people lose interest.

>

>

 

This game will never be truly balanced and yes it is broken.

 

A fight of vs soulbeast reveals whats wrong with the game.

 

You can still get insta downed by soulbeast and deadeye. I got hit for 15.000 dmg instantly from a soulbeast and he did 2-3 moves. Deadeye did practically same but he had to be melee range.

 

Also There is the issue of balancing old vs new classes i'm not saying all classes are busted but a good example is i was having issues with lack of hard CC on core eles with very little and a long channeling time on tempest its pretty obvious that some of the older and newer pof ones need to be weighed in when combated. Not sure how the heck a tempes is supposed to win any fights with such limited hard CC.

 

 

[MrForz.1953]

> @"Kuma.1503" said:

> > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > There is no best way to describe the current situation than using a **famous quote**

> >

> > First. Not only Einstein never said this, but the man probably was too smart to describe insanity in such a crude manner scope wise.

> >

> > Second. There's a difference between repeating the same thing and missing the mark when adjusting, most of people requesting nerfs, legitimate or not, don't get what they were seeking most of the time and don't get to make conclusions from the results of their suggestions because those rarely, if never, take form. They request shovels to dig something, they're mostly given hammers like once a year, then you come out of the bush to point out how more shovels won't solve the situation while they still struggle to dig with their hammers.

> >

> > Of course there will be stronger specs and best builds but if the performance difference between builds of roughly the same purpose with different specs/classes could be like 20% instead of 50% it will already be excellent.

>

> Some of us come in and inspect the hole, we notice that the sides are all lumpy. It's much too big in some areas and much too narrow in others. We can't exactly blame the diggers... they've been digging with hammers.

>

> We suggest adding dirt back to the areas where the hole is too wide. "No", say the people digging the hole "We just need to take more from the other side. It will even things out".

>

> "But then the hole will be too big" Say the onlookers.

>

> "We can't add dirt back or we'll end up back at square one"

>

> So they begin hacking away at the other side of the hole with their hammers...

>

>

 

I guess that can come full circle afterwards.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> Power creeps both ways whether you're buffing, reworking, or adding something that's stronger than something else or nerfing and removing certain things that allow others to take their place in the meta. Either way; buffing or nerfing, the resulting meta just becomes the new thing for everyone to hate and complain about.

Not what power creep means.

>

> It's never going to be perfectly balanced or even remotely balanced just like any game with more than 1 option probably won't be either. Arenanet is going to try, because 90% of the threads on here and map chat is just: "X too op, pls nerf. Or X too nerf, pls buff" give or take a few mentions of kittens.

It's never going to be perfectly balanced so...? What are you proposing, that we stop trying, just stop implementing balance patches? It is obvious that a game as complex as this one will never be perfectly balanced, and there are two ways to deal with this:

1. Occasionally change up the meta so people dont get bored. This is what most popular pvp games do.

2. Make most char/build be very fun and deep so people keep enjoying it for a long time. Smash melee for example. One of the big problems with achieving this in gw2 is that builds that are a bit easy and shallow are often pretty effective, like minion necro, kalla ren, healbreaker and so on.

>

> In the end they're probably going to try and please the masses too and if most people want things nerfed and/or removed, then we get what we ask for at the expense of content, fun, and build diversity.

>

> Actually no, forget all that. As I was typing this I just got killed by a burn guard.

>

>

>

 

 

[Axl.8924]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > Power creeps both ways whether you're buffing, reworking, or adding something that's stronger than something else or nerfing and removing certain things that allow others to take their place in the meta. Either way; buffing or nerfing, the resulting meta just becomes the new thing for everyone to hate and complain about.

> Not what power creep means.

> >

> > It's never going to be perfectly balanced or even remotely balanced just like any game with more than 1 option probably won't be either. Arenanet is going to try, because 90% of the threads on here and map chat is just: "X too op, pls nerf. Or X too nerf, pls buff" give or take a few mentions of kittens.

> It's never going to be perfectly balanced so...? What are you proposing, that we stop trying, just stop implementing balance patches? It is obvious that a game as complex as this one will never be perfectly balanced, and there are two ways to deal with this:

> 1. Occasionally change up the meta so people dont get bored. This is what most popular pvp games do.

> 2. Make most char/build be very fun and deep so people keep enjoying it for a long time. Smash melee for example. One of the big problems with achieving this in gw2 is that builds that are a bit easy and shallow are often pretty effective, like minion necro, kalla ren, healbreaker and so on.

> >

> > In the end they're probably going to try and please the masses too and if most people want things nerfed and/or removed, then we get what we ask for at the expense of content, fun, and build diversity.

> >

> > Actually no, forget all that. As I was typing this I just got killed by a burn guard.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

 

There must be some standard way for instance of showing that a specific class and build is a heaping pile of trash for dmg something like a way to show newer people who start playing that lets say for instance core tempest is meant to be support only a tutorial or something that really shows people otherwise trying out random stuff you get angry and frustrated and quit because you make zero mark in spvp. Its all good n all some who really know how to play are successful on ele, but its not exactly like the game explains what +1 is or what roamers are or what side noders are or even decappers and what abilities are required for decap. Seriously how do you expect anyone to not get frustrated from dying and quit all together? Also despite all that a lot of stuff is going to overlap in pve sorry but in some ways there is really illusion of choice and some builds do trump others and learning what build trumps others because you guys have said it yourself some builds with classes are gold only or low tier others are plat tier. You guys wonder why people read guides? its because folks want to feel like they are doing something meaningful and having fun. Unless you already know how to play the game and know the meaningful risks you have options to add certain traits or take away, but even guides from metabattle are outdated and not fully trustworthy.

 

As for actual nerfs and buffs:Look i get it world of warcraft nerfed and gutted classes, but the problem of ANET is different. you don't have icons showing up to show spell that is being casted and its more about reactive and the game doesn't even really explain well what side noders +1 decappers and roamers are. And pvping is a jumbled mess that unless you happen to not give up and get help from someone experienced nice enough(Because there is always those folks who are trolls and say L2P) and you literally learn nothing about the game or builds and or why it works. Even in pve its a jumbled mess, because you got dps traits all over and healing traits. You want to know why people go and read guides? Because you hgot a bunch of builds some are more useful than others dead end traits that are useless and only give you the illusion of choice. A good example is: Necromancer has traits that are not really as desired in pve and pretty much dead weight and so does every class, so why not bind certain grand master traits together to make them better or fix them for pve niche or something?

 

Actually while looking through eles do have pretty straight forward traits air does have lots of really strong traits competing in pve i won't lie bolt to the heart vs fresh air

 

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @"felix.2386" said:

> you do realize what started the killing of gw2 pvp was the start of the power creep from HoT release, right?

 

Yes they increased the dmg with the HoT specs but they nerfed a lot of them at then end of HoT again also the new elite specs gave the classes new identity. The point is people got used to the builds and how they work but whit PoF everything get into a over drive modus Arena.NET pushed for faster gameplay and they wanted their new elite specs better then they old (which they also accomplished by nerfing the old).

 

What you got was an instead kill Mirage(out of stealth),pew pew Soulbeast, and a Deadeye who fires with a rifle like it is an MG , a Weaver with faster attunment and a trait line with 40%+ damage modifiers

 

There were also paper,stone, scissor mechanic which was introduced on top Scourge with too much condi dmg , which then is countered by Heal Firebrand which then is countered by Spellbreaker.

 

What really is to noticed is the PoF specs got mostly nerfed to the ground

DPS Weaver went to trash tier because of might nerf,

DPS Spellbreaker is unplayable in all game modes

Heal Fb became also trash tier even under Weaver.

Deadeye became also trash correct me if I'm wrong

Mirage, Soulbeast, Scourge are not the over the top any more but doing fine

Spellbreaker found his new destiny as healer.

 

What really pops your eye is when you look at what ele Glyph of Elementals does a vanilla skill which were always considered trash no new trait which change it and compare it to HoT skills:

Horn : Sand Squall 0.5s protection

Earth Elemental 3.25 s protection

As Tempest healer:

Water overload 5k total heal

Ice Elemental 7k total heal near instantly

 

Which means we are in many aspects now under the vanilla balance.

 

This the result of nerfing the hell out of the game for 2 years

 

[Jekkt.6045]

> @"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:

> > @"felix.2386" said:

> > you do realize what started the killing of gw2 pvp was the start of the power creep from HoT release, right?

>

> Yes they increased the dmg with the HoT specs but they nerfed a lot of them at then end of HoT again also the new elite specs gave the classes new identity. The point is people got used to the builds and how they work but whit PoF everything get into a over drive modus Arena.NET pushed for faster gameplay and they wanted their new elite specs better then they old (which they also accomplished by nerfing the old).

 

They pretty much increased everything with HoT specs. shoutbow, d/d ele and cele engi were quite tanky back then. during HoT beta i played a tournament on cele herald and it was more tanky than those 3 and absolutely destroyed them with the damage it dealt... turns out cele herald wasn't even good because marauder was just as tanky and dealt even more damage lol.

 

fast forward to HoT release where scrapper was insanely tanky on a damage amulet while dealing 7k+ damage with hammer 2 and 4k+ with hammer block... or druid with 15k damage smokescale and 20k damage spiky pink dinosaur. core guard dropped out of the meta a long time before because of dd ele and shoutbow. then you get unkillable minstrel tempest that heals for 800k per game... but you know what? who needs healing if you have chrono making the whole team invul.

 

while elite specs seemed nice at first glance, i wish we would have never gotten them. not only did they ruin balance forever, they made it apparent how rigid vanilla design was. ele will probably never get an elite spec with a non elemental class mechanic because they'd have to redo all skills on all weapons.

 

what they should have done instead was adding new utility skill types and weapons (like they do with elite specs, just not tied to anything). and maybe new core traitlines or additional traits in existing traitlines.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Supreme.3164" said:

> There is no best way to describe the current situation than using a **famous quote**

> 

 

"Well 1. It's a stupid saying because it doesn't account for other variables, look at slot machines.

And 2... That implies everything is not ALREADY INSANE!" -Freeman's mind

 

I slightly agree with your premise and ya; we have stagnated hard. However I disagree with the specific claims:

This game has NEVER been balanced on the idea of a "fair fight". Perhaps for 5v5, maybe; but only by the loosest definition.

But I'd argue if balance was closer to a fighting game and we didn't double, triple, and quadruple down on 5v5 prior to HoT we'd maybe still have ESL support.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> Not what power creep means.

 

Fair, but I don't really have a word for it.

 

Like it or hate it, Feb 25th was a big patch that changed a lot within in the game. It was something new that invalidated a lot of ways to play through nerfing everything, and there were plenty of outliers for months after because certain things just weren't nerfed or weren't nerfed equally. Call it power creep, power dip, call it whatever you want really.

 

> It's never going to be perfectly balanced so...? What are you proposing, that we stop trying, just stop implementing balance patches? It is obvious that a game as complex as this one will never be perfectly balanced, and there are two ways to deal with this:

> 1. Occasionally change up the meta so people dont get bored. This is what most popular pvp games do.

> 2. Make most char/build be very fun and deep so people keep enjoying it for a long time. Smash melee for example. One of the big problems with achieving this in gw2 is that builds that are a bit easy and shallow are often pretty effective, like minion necro, kalla ren, healbreaker and so on.

 

No, I agree its good to shake up the meta and it would stagnate quick if they just stopped.

 

I just think that nerfing everything to achieve that adds nothing to the game, and makes it progressively more boring to play. Why not instead of nerfing the meta to the point of unplayability every 3-6 months, they do the opposite and focus on buffing/reworking weak and underused skills/traitlines to rival the current meta for that time?

 

Like I say, either way it's going to be imbalanced. It's really up to people on whether they want an imbalanced and boring game, or an imbalanced but fun game.

If you actually play Melee, i'll figure you're a fan of the latter. Melee is incredibly broken, but that's part of what makes it fun.

[Swagg.9236]

GW2 PvP is indeed dead, but what people actually want aren't nerfs or buffs; they want a fundamental rework to how classes contribute and interact in combat. However, it's way too late for anyone to introduce that to GW2. The playerbase's collective brain is already shaped to only accept a certain way of things.

[la penombre.2415]

I mostly agree with the OP : When HoT was released, warriors transformed into thieves while engineers transformed into warriors...