End of Dragons might not be enough.

[sammokdadd.3602]

Imagine Making a full topic about something that is not out yet.. Just imagine how a tryhard are you. Jeez

[DeanBB.4268]

@OP, I'm not sure how long you've been playing, if the new player experience was in place or not, or when you last leveled up a character. Part of the level up is a pop-up that gives info, pointing out new skills, what are skill points and how to apply them (even opens the hero panel), what power, precision, etc are good for, that sort of thing. As @"kharmin.7683" said, the game doesn't force much of anything on anyone, so nobody is forced to look at that information when leveling up. I know my brother and daughter, both recent recruits, didn't bother to since I was around to guide them. The point is, info is there, but the impetus is on the player to acquire it.

 

And don't we have "level up" dungeons now? But who runs them? Level 80's. If new players are forced (level gated?) to do level-up dungeons and strikes, will the level 80's accept them in their parties? I'd say no, nothing would change. So the "forced level up" instances then have to be made solo-able, for an appropriately geared and experienced player.

 

And my brother and daughter have no complaints about the game. They are ages away from where you are and have a ton of content to play through. Maybe the uber-16hrs/day-power-MMO player has a different experience, blowing through content, but I'd say that isn't the norm.

 

[edit] If anything, encouraging guilds may be the best thing for new players, providing possible mentors.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> plenty of others have been thinking about for a long time and I'm not the first to write about it. Guild Wars 2 has a retention problem and the constantly shifting

 

>leaves little confidence in the players here or new players coming in.

 

>capturing very little imagination from the players

 

 

Have you considered that your point might come across better if you avoided trying to speak for others?

[Lily.1935]

> @"DeanBB.4268" said:

> @OP, I'm not sure how long you've been playing, if the new player experience was in place or not, or when you last leveled up a character. Part of the level up is a pop-up that gives info, pointing out new skills, what are skill points and how to apply them (even opens the hero panel), what power, precision, etc are good for, that sort of thing. As @"kharmin.7683" said, the game doesn't force much of anything on anyone, so nobody is forced to look at that information when leveling up. I know my brother and daughter, both recent recruits, didn't bother to since I was around to guide them. The point is, info is there, but the impetus is on the player to acquire it.

>

> And don't we have "level up" dungeons now? But who runs them? Level 80's. If new players are forced (level gated?) to do level-up dungeons and strikes, will the level 80's accept them in their parties? I'd say no, nothing would change. So the "forced level up" instances then have to be made solo-able, for an appropriately geared and experienced player.

>

> And my brother and daughter have no complaints about the game. They are ages away from where you are and have a ton of content to play through. Maybe the uber-16hrs/day-power-MMO player has a different experience, blowing through content, but I'd say that isn't the norm.

>

> [edit] If anything, encouraging guilds may be the best thing for new players, providing possible mentors.

 

Y'all have a very strange idea of who I am. Last time I did the level up process was just 2 months ago. It wasn't helpful and the person I was playing with didn't realize he had rewards for leveling for several levels.

 

16 hours a day? What? I have work and exercise to do. As well as a boyfriend to be with. Try 1-4 hours a week.

 

Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

>At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

 

I disagree with this sentiment. There is absolutely no reason for players to be pushed into multiplayer content, specifically raids or fractals etc.

 

What benefit do you see from promoting this path?

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> >At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

>

> I disagree with this sentiment. There is absolutely no reason for players to be pushed into multiplayer content, specifically raids or fractals etc.

>

> What benefit do you see from promoting this path?

 

"I like that content, so we need to force everone into it because I said so"?

 

I agree that there's no reason to try and make content like dungeons as a mandatory leveling path. It's enough that the players are informed about that content existing -whether or not they try it is up to them.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just give me new EoD WvW meta and I'll be satisfied. B)

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

 

[Lily.1935]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

>

 

Why play a Massively multiplayer Online Video game if you're not going to play with other people?

[Lily.1935]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

>

 

Strawman argument. Never said anything like that.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> >

>

> Why play a Massively multiplayer Online Video game if you're not going to play with other people?

 

Yeah, because not being in a guild or not playing dungeons means the player doesn't play with other people. Talk about strawman argument, eh?

 

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> >

>

> Strawman argument. Never said anything like that.

 

...you keep saying they should be forced into playing dungeons as an obligatory leveling path, so yes, "you've said something like that". It's an optional content (like many others) that the players are specifically informed about, not sure what else you want to get there.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> >

>

> Strawman argument. Never said anything like that.

 

Never said that you "said" that. I said that you seem to be advocating for it. Please be more careful when you read what I post.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> >

>

> Why play a Massively multiplayer Online Video game if you're not going to play with other people?

 

Who said people don't play with other people? Interacting with other players is optional in just about every MMO that I know. GW2 doesn't need to force interaction.

 

EDIT: Also, you are suggesting that I, personally, don't play with other players with nothing factual to back up that assertion.

[Obtena.7952]

I think some intent has been lost ... when we talk about 'playing with others' are you talking about GROUPING like is necessary for raids/fractals ... or just being part of a force like OW meta content or Maps like Dragonstand?

 

I have NO problem being 'force to playing with others' in the OW context to progress, like Map metas for instance. I have a MASSIVE problem with being 'forced to playing with others' in the instanced content context, like fractals for example. So what one are we talking about here?

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> >

>

> Why play a Massively multiplayer Online Video game if you're not going to play with other people?

 

But everyone is playing with other people in the OW without Guilds. Even with a massive amount of people. You could even say it is massively multiplayer.

You can't push people into multiplayer content, when they're already playing it.

 

In comparison to that, instanced content only goes as far as 10 players in the same instance. Where's the massively multiplayer there? I can only see lobby based lowman content akin to co-op rpgs. Even games like Battlefield are more "massively multiplayer" than instanced content.

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> >

>

> Why play a Massively multiplayer Online Video game if you're not going to play with other people?

 

Why not? It's not enforced. I realize that you want to change that, but seems unlikely that anet would do something so dumb. Like FFXIV, if raids start being required to progress, i will quit. Simplicity itself.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> > >

> >

> > Why play a Massively multiplayer Online Video game if you're not going to play with other people?

>

> Why not? It's not enforced. I realize that you want to change that, but seems unlikely that anet would do something so dumb. Like FFXIV, if raids start being required to progress, i will quit. Simplicity itself.

 

Dungeons are required in Final Fantasy 14 to progress the story.

[SunTzu.4513]

My problem with EoD is that i feel they abandon the whole saga thing. I feel they miss a great opportunity to rebrand the LS into this saga stuff and create a new way/schedule to release content or other stuff. I have no big expactations about EoD but if i take a look from HoT and the following up LS into PoF i feel PoF is the much weaker expac. Also the Saga is okayish for me but i don't now how or why but the LS 3+4 kept me playing way longer than any of the Icebrood stuff. I really hope they step up their game once more because i really think a expac on the actual Icebrood Saga level will harm the game big time in a way they can't even make up for it with new especs or masteries. I'm really worried about what will be left at the end when the whole going back to cantha nostalgia is fading away...

[Lily.1935]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> > >

> >

> > Strawman argument. Never said anything like that.

>

> Never said that you "said" that. I said that you seem to be advocating for it. Please be more careful when you read what I post.

 

Then why make a fallacies statement like that? I never said anything like players wouldn't be able to keep leveling past 30 if they don't do the dungeons or join a guild. That would be absurd. Didn't even mention how I'd force players to play together. (Ideally they wouldn't notice it when it was happening.)

 

I talked a lot about revamping dungeons, weaving strikes into the leveling process so they're available at level 40+ but I never said they were required for leveling. I did say that the level 80 boost shouldn't be available or given to new players. But beyond that, I didn't say much which a few of you are adverse to even that which makes no sense to me. There is and should be enjoyment in the leveling process itself.

 

Arena Net's method at the moment to bridge the gap between new and old players is awful and one of the key points of my criticism. Rather than giving old players incentive to go back to old content, such as dungeons(and revamp them to act to better teach players) or weave strikes into the leveling process like dungeons are, they put that burden on the new players to close that gap with the level 80 boost to scoot them along into the new content as quick as possible.

 

Some of my ideas if you REALLY want to get into specifics about what I think would be good.

 

1. Revamp of the dungeons, both story and explorable, to act as teachers to the players to understand mechanics in an active situation such as breakbars, projectile blocks, dodging, jumping over attacks, so on and so on.

2. Give real rewards for doing the story dungeons that veteran players would want.

3. Strikes every 20 levels starting at level 40 or 45. So like, 40/45, 60/65, 80.

4. Leveling strikes should also have rewards veteran players would want.

5. Core Map venders with region based rewards for map areas that are summoned after doing major group events similar to how the Temple of Balthazar meta works with unique rewards to that region. By region I don't mean specific map but like Kryta, Ascalon, shiverpeaks.

6. More group events in core tyria zones along with Events that literally can't start without a specific number of people at that area.

7. Give the new players a mount at about level 10 or 15 that they could unlock through a heart that is prompted with mail to the character to tell them to come quick or something similar.

8. Remove access to the level 80 boost for new players along with experience boosts for them as well. Experience boosts could be given out to them as rewards for doing specific things.

9. All living world seasons should be bundled with the expansion they follow with no extra charge.

10. Rewards could be things which were normally gemstore or black lion chest items that rotate every month and are difficult or pricy to acquire in game. Such as unavailable black lion skins or dyes. Or even a PvE equivalent to the gift of Battle.

11. Rebalance core enemies to be better scaled with the power creep of the game.

12. A random Dungeon/strike finder or Rolette. Say if a small group of friends are starting a dungeon but can't get people, a random dungeon finder could be good for a vet as they enter it and are put in that group to fill the missing space so they can play the content and the random can get a dungeon or strike.

 

This is a bit more specific than I want to get into, but these are some of the ideas I've had. Are they perfect? No. The only real forcing I'm doing is forcing the players to level up on without an external aid like special mounts, boosters and leveling tomes. As the game is now, no I wouldn't want to force someone to have to go through the process since its a grind. Part of my goal with this post is to push the idea that the process of leveling doesn't need to feel like a grind. It can be exciting and active. Players should want to do dungeons, they should want to do strikes, they should want to do world events. New and old alike.

 

And my criticism of arena net is this. When they've been so focused on what's new without managing what new players are going to see first they have created a problem. New players are locked out of accessing current content or completely lost due to several pay walls and old players are pushed continually forward without regard for the new players. I think new content is fantastic. Its fun, and its great to do these metas. They're great! And central tyria should be great as well. We should be incentivized to go back to old maps and run metas with newbies or run dungeons with them.

 

These are some of the systems, or something similar that I'd like BEFORE End of Dragons comes out. Are these perfect solutions? Absolutely not. They're flawed, but there something. They're ideas that could help to better bridge that massive gap. Would Arena net lose some money short term? Yeah they probably would. But I honestly believe that if they took the time to make the core experience so much richer with so much more to offer old players and new players alike the game could explode with popularity again.

 

As for PvP and WvW. There isn't anything specific I'd like here. I would like them to crack down on the cheating in PvP and WvW as well as better tune the balance. But that's not a solution, just the common complaint. For PvP, new game modes would be nice for them with their own tournaments and rewards, could be different could be the same, I'm not entirely sure what they want. WvW really needs their alliances implemented.

 

An expansion is coming out soon. Cool. I'm going to love it and play the heck out of it. I'm going to Get all the new armor and weapons skins I like and do whatever strike, raid, dungeon they include as well as all the story. That's great. But I'm a mega fan. I don't need to be convinced to buy EoD. I'm preordering it as soon as it becomes available. I do think End of Dragons will be a rousing success... For us... Do I think it'll attract a lot of new people? Maybe. If it does I don't think it'll retain people if arena net's track record continues as it has been for these past few years.

 

From my perspective, End of Dragons is the perfect time to really buckle down and make sure the new player experience is catered to just as much as the veteran experience. Neither expansion thus far has catered to the new player experience. Even the addition of the revenant was cut short by experience tomes so old players could just skip that, though it wasn't nearly as egregious as it was when PoF released.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

 

> Then why make a fallacies statement like that? I never said anything like players wouldn't be able to keep leveling past 30 if they don't do the dungeons or join a guild. That would be absurd. Didn't even mention how I'd force players to play together. (Ideally they wouldn't notice it when it was happening.)

Again, you impugn me. I never made a statement, so how could it be false? I made an observation based on my interpretation of your posts. I never even touched on characters leveling -- you should go back to the original observation that I made. It had nothing to do with leveling. It was about how it seems to me that you want to force players to engage in content together whether or not they want to do so.

 

And, no, you never mentioned HOW you would do this; only that you wanted to.

 

Good luck with your ideas, though. I am completely against them but not opposed to your posting them. Since you have misinterpreted my posts twice now, I am no longer willing to continue conversing with you.

 

[zealex.9410]

Expansions were never enough it wasnt enough after hot nor was it enough after pof.

 

Alongside with expansions we also need anet to get their shit together (for the lack of a better word) and coke upbwith a solid direction and plan for what the game is supposed to be and how its supposed to be evolving moving forward.

 

I think its pretty clear that ppl overall want expansions as well as lw rather than exclusively one or the other, which seemingly took anet a while to understand. The game will be in a bad state and innevitably bleed players if after eod they decide to not release anymore expansions, the same will also happen if they go the other way (like we've seen over the course of last year).

[zealex.9410]

> @"sammokdadd.3602" said:

> Imagine Making a full topic about something that is not out yet.. Just imagine how a tryhard are you. Jeez

 

Laughs in legendary runes/sigils

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > > Guilds are something that can help. If the new players want to join one. And them playing with other people makes them more likely. At some point they do need to be pushed into multiplayer content. Sooner than later is better.

> > > > Why not simply force players into guilds to play the game? Seems like you are advocating forcing content on players anyway or forcing players to have to play with others.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Why play a Massively multiplayer Online Video game if you're not going to play with other people?

> >

> > Why not? It's not enforced. I realize that you want to change that, but seems unlikely that anet would do something so dumb. Like FFXIV, if raids start being required to progress, i will quit. Simplicity itself.

>

> Dungeons are required in Final Fantasy 14 to progress the story.

 

A dungeon was required in Guild Wars 2 to progress the story.

It wasn't very popular (the subject of many a lament on the forums and in-game), and was subsequently changed to a single-player+ instance.

[Lily.1935]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

>

> > Then why make a fallacies statement like that? I never said anything like players wouldn't be able to keep leveling past 30 if they don't do the dungeons or join a guild. That would be absurd. Didn't even mention how I'd force players to play together. (Ideally they wouldn't notice it when it was happening.)

> Again, you impugn me. I never made a statement, so how could it be false? I made an observation based on my interpretation of your posts. I never even touched on characters leveling -- you should go back to the original observation that I made. It had nothing to do with leveling. It was about how it seems to me that you want to force players to engage in content together whether or not they want to do so.

>

> And, no, you never mentioned HOW you would do this; only that you wanted to.

>

> Good luck with your ideas, though. I am completely against them but not opposed to your posting them. Since you have misinterpreted my posts twice now, I am no longer willing to continue conversing with you.

>

 

I did not. If you wish to explain yourself better, please do so. If I'm getting something wrong explain it better. I'm trying to do the same. You're against all of it but why? TO what end and what solution would you propose in its place? There is an issue whether you want to see that there is or not. If you can explain yourself clearly and concisely I can better determine if I agree with your assessment or not. At the moment you're just rejecting everything and making fallacies accusations. I used that example as something that probably could be misconstrued from what I was saying.

 

The only forcing I suggested was the players going through the leveling process without boosters or tomes. And I suggested incentives to get people to play with each other. But you made a sarcastic comment about guilds as if what I was saying was as absurd which is a strawman.

[Valfar.3761]

The best time I had in GW2 was the HoT expansion. I liked the vertical maps (namely Verdant Brink). I also liked the feeling of "threat"; the mobs were very dangerous and you really had to pay attention. I don't like damage spongey mobs, though. I liked the story. The writing wasn't great but the spectacle set pieces were fun. I think the writers knew that their writing was weak, so they played to the strength of their setpiece spectacles and tried to minimize the amount of character stuff and talking as possible, so there was little filler. The voice acting of Rytlock and Canach was great, though.

 

The post-launch patches is where they lost me. They removed the danger from the mobs, so they just turned into long, tedious damage sponges that were no fun to fight anymore. The maps weren't interesting to traverse like Verdant Brink. The story also slowed down and the writers were no longer playing to their strengths. Rather than getting to the next setpiece, there is a lot of talking and character stuff and since the writing is bad, well... it's just not enjoyable at all. So I lost interest. Nobody cares about Marjory talking about curtains. People do care about running with an egg while being chased by a spider. I love FFXIV and Trails for their story, but GW2 falls woefully short and I think it's been clear for a long time that GW2 really shouldn't try.

 

For End of Dragons, if they can make a map like Verdant Brink again, maybe Kaineng being a dense city space that goes up to a very tall height so you can jump off and fall for a long time and open your glider and fly to multiple levels, that'd be cool. Dangerous mobs that aren't damage sponges, so a high time to kill experience where you have to pay attention. Maybe some revamped underwater combat. For the story, minimize the talking and get straight to business, even if it had to be a short campaign.