Infusion.7149 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 If a player is out of the map in PVP or WVW they should just be automatically kicked... Also players can be flying without a mount, it's called gliding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 > @"Smoosh.2718" said: > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > @"Alik.9651" said: > > > Actually, I need a clarify that do A.I. build count as bot? such as necro minions + auto GS#4 > > > > Anet determines what counts and what does not count. Use the report feature in game if you are unsure. > > You mean with the same message: > "Thank you for reporting this incident. > > We understand that their behavior can be frustrating and we appreciate your patience as these investigations take time" > > But then proceed to do nothing at all for 6 months. I've lost all belief that they actually do anything with the reports after activly going after cheats/bots but still seeing them in the game for months, after many reports. So as a result I will not defend it. > > Defend it or not, it is the only recourse we players have. Whining about it on the forums isn't the answer either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoosh.2718 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > @"Smoosh.2718" said: > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > @"Alik.9651" said: > > > > Actually, I need a clarify that do A.I. build count as bot? such as necro minions + auto GS#4 > > > > > > Anet determines what counts and what does not count. Use the report feature in game if you are unsure. > > > > You mean with the same message: > > "Thank you for reporting this incident. > > > > We understand that their behavior can be frustrating and we appreciate your patience as these investigations take time" > > > > But then proceed to do nothing at all for 6 months. I've lost all belief that they actually do anything with the reports after activly going after cheats/bots but still seeing them in the game for months, after many reports. So as a result I will not defend it. > > > > > > Defend it or not, it is the only recourse we players have. Whining about it on the forums isn't the answer either. Meerly accepting it because someone says its the only option you have, is also not the right thing to do. This is how we ended up with the EA problem we have within the gaming industry. I can completely understand WP's reaction to active cheaters in the game, as really he was reflecting how a lot of us feel about the game and the way its being handled. If we can not relay this onto the company, then how do we get things changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 > @"Smoosh.2718" said: > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > @"Smoosh.2718" said: > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > @"Alik.9651" said: > > > > > Actually, I need a clarify that do A.I. build count as bot? such as necro minions + auto GS#4 > > > > > > > > Anet determines what counts and what does not count. Use the report feature in game if you are unsure. > > > > > > You mean with the same message: > > > "Thank you for reporting this incident. > > > > > > We understand that their behavior can be frustrating and we appreciate your patience as these investigations take time" > > > > > > But then proceed to do nothing at all for 6 months. I've lost all belief that they actually do anything with the reports after activly going after cheats/bots but still seeing them in the game for months, after many reports. So as a result I will not defend it. > > > > > > > > > > Defend it or not, it is the only recourse we players have. Whining about it on the forums isn't the answer either. > > Meerly accepting it because someone says its the only option you have, is also not the right thing to do. This is how we ended up with the EA problem we have within the gaming industry. > > I can completely understand WP's reaction to active cheaters in the game, as really he was reflecting how a lot of us feel about the game and the way its being handled. > If we can not relay this onto the company, then how do we get things changed? Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaramSin.2693 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 > @"anduriell.6280" said: > Just a suggestions, for the automatic detection in cases : > * Player is under map > * Player is inside other objects These situations are very common in the game due to bugs so it will not be a great indicator and will be a real problem, especially a system that constantly checks every point you propose will slow down (again) the game itself. All hacks are implemented on the client side but it is the server level that manages the result, so perhaps a flag raised by the "report for botting" function could cause the server to keep log of the server-side answers to the client which could be analysed by another server "offline" and if the analysis report gave a "warning" you could start with the ban or suspension of the account. In this way the system will be loaded only on request and for a short time and the impact on performances will be lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > * Player has a constant "faster than normal" speed > > Chronos have constant "faster than normal" speed. :tongue: Them banning thieves from WvW because mount->leap->dismount->tp skills->mount->leap->dismount->repeat is faster than just just mounting and running normally would also be acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anduriell.6280 Posted January 6, 2021 Author Share Posted January 6, 2021 > @"NaramSin.2693" said: > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > Just a suggestions, for the automatic detection in cases : > > * Player is under map > > * Player is inside other objects > > These situations are very common in the game due to bugs so it will not be a great indicator and will be a real problem, especially a system that constantly checks every point you propose will slow down (again) the game itself. > > All hacks are implemented on the client side but it is the server level that manages the result, so perhaps a flag raised by the "report for botting" function could cause the server to keep log of the server-side answers to the client which could be analysed by another server "offline" and if the analysis report gave a "warning" you could start with the ban or suspension of the account. > > In this way the system will be loaded only on request and for a short time and the impact on performances will be lower. Yes that could be of great help for when the game moderator investigate the report. I really appreciate your input here as it is very helpful. Any validations done in the client side should not impact the performance of the game however, most of the validations are very simple if just a IF case which could be offloaded in any f the other core threads outside of the main. Even breaking out of the map in PvE modes should get the users logged out. They are breaking the normal use of the game and that could be exploited. The logged out user can still log in back so it's just a nuisance and a price to pay for a healthier game. Also is my opinion that the many bugs are still present in the game because the devs can not reproduce them. Posting them here like "_i did dis and dat and then i got stuck_" although helpful may not be helpful enough. Thanks to the reporting system you suggested and the flag system a dev could rapidly check the report and find the exact issue. **My suggestions are focus in weeding out the cheaters, not the bots.** But because bots usually use cheats to farm more efficiently which is probably the reason behind the laggy maps dealing with cheaters would also remove a big part of the bots. Normal bots using no hacks is another story and although possible to detect may be too much of a hassle to deal with it right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veprovina.4876 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > > * Player has a constant "faster than normal" speed > > > > Chronos have constant "faster than normal" speed. :tongue: > Them banning thieves from WvW because mount->leap->dismount->tp skills->mount->leap->dismount->repeat is faster than just just mounting and running normally would also be acceptable. > I wasn't advocating anyone get banned for that. Its how those classes are. Even thief. That's an exploit of their class, but up to them to either allow or fix if it needs fixing. Cheono speed was just an example of how vague OP made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schimmi.6872 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"NaramSin.2693" said: > > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > > Just a suggestions, for the automatic detection in cases : > > > * Player is under map > > > * Player is inside other objects > > > > These situations are very common in the game due to bugs so it will not be a great indicator and will be a real problem, especially a system that constantly checks every point you propose will slow down (again) the game itself. > > > > All hacks are implemented on the client side but it is the server level that manages the result, so perhaps a flag raised by the "report for botting" function could cause the server to keep log of the server-side answers to the client which could be analysed by another server "offline" and if the analysis report gave a "warning" you could start with the ban or suspension of the account. > > > > In this way the system will be loaded only on request and for a short time and the impact on performances will be lower. > > Yes that could be of great help for when the game moderator investigate the report. I really appreciate your input here as it is very helpful. > > Any validations done in the client side should not impact the performance of the game however, most of the validations are very simple if just a IF case which could be offloaded in any f the other core threads outside of the main. > Even breaking out of the map in PvE modes should get the users logged out. They are breaking the normal use of the game and that could be exploited. The logged out user can still log in back so it's just a nuisance and a price to pay for a healthier game. > > Also is my opinion that the many bugs are still present in the game because the devs can not reproduce them. Posting them here like "_i did dis and dat and then i got stuck_" although helpful may not be helpful enough. > > Thanks to the reporting system you suggested and the flag system a dev could rapidly check the report and find the exact issue. > > **My suggestions are focus in weeding out the cheaters, not the bots.** But because bots usually use cheats to farm more efficiently which is probably the reason behind the laggy maps dealing with cheaters would also remove a big part of the bots. > > Normal bots using no hacks is another story and although possible to detect may be too much of a hassle to deal with it right now. I don't think that forced logouts would be an acceptable price, they are often not just a small nuisance, because depending on the map/instance you and maybe also your group/squad may loose a lot of invested time. There are already enough problems with disconnects, adding even more of them just because of some smaller common bugs (some often exist for years) will just be a frustrating experience for many players. And as this proposed detection system very likely would have bugs too, it may be even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve The Cynic.3217 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 > @"hugo.4705" said: > The "inside an object" is non compatible too, because of wvw sieges, being in a banner, using a cunsummable like a feast, using box o fun, or any object you can pass through. More to the point, there's numerous places where you can be *inside* the map, not under the map, and without meaning it end up inside an object. Examples that I've done, mostly because of my penchant for exploring really *high* places, especially with the Dragocopter. It's fun flying over the top of a waypoint or PoI or HP somewhere, and seeing that it's directly below me but 15000 game units away, somewhat more than twelve hundred feet. But sometimes you end up inside rocks, e.g. in the Vigil fortress below the Captain's Airship. You can use Mr Buns or the Dragocopter to get on top of the airship, and end up dropping through holes in the scenery around the fort. Or the tunnels in the southern end of the east shore of the Strait of Devastation (south of Fort Trinity). And I've been knocked inside scenery by foes, famously in one of the fighting instances of PoF in the Crystal Oasis, where you invade the Branded main camp. (I stayed in there because it let me cheese the fight. Eventually the crew finished off the foe and I exited combat and could /stuck out of the scenery object.) So a hard no to automated bans for being inside objects, especially scenery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moira Shalaar.5620 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > Player inside other objects would be a problem for me. I would not like the get my account flagged for getting stuck while repairing double doors or wall in wvw. > > Well you are logged out to the selection screen which in you case is what you would do anyway. For one flag every once in a while it shouldn't be a problem for you, but if you keep being logging out and you can't play you will report it in game, contacting support or in the forums and a game moderator can look into your case. You wouldn't know if you have or how many times you have been flagged anyway, that's only for internal use. > > I don't think you get inside objects multiple times a day, right? This solution would prove problematic. Imagine being on a queued map (pretty common occurrence, at least on my home server) you start rebuilding a wall and something glitches so that you end up inside the wall. If there is an automatic rule that logs you out, not only are you removed from WvW, but now you have to wait the queue again to get in. On a reset night it is not uncommon for me to wait an hour+ just to get into the least queued map. If this were to happen . . . wow that would be a bad case of unhappiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 > @"Alik.9651" said: > Actually, I need a clarify that do A.I. build count as bot? such as necro minions + auto GS#4 As long as you are at your computer when doing it you are not breaking any rules. If you are away from your computer when doing this then you are violating rules and could be warned or suspended for it. That said a good portion of players will just report you on sight whether you're afk or not just for using this farming method. So long as you at your computer though and can respond to any whispers you get from potential Anet employee's who are checking to see if you are afk or not you should have no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biermeister.4678 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 > @"aspirine.6852" said: > Player inside other objects would be a problem for me. I would not like the get my account flagged for getting stuck while repearing double doors or wall in wvw. Or falling in a whole in the map like the one on Inner bay center gate at times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Alik.9651" said: > > Actually, I need a clarify that do A.I. build count as bot? such as necro minions + auto GS#4 > > As long as you are at your computer when doing it you are not breaking any rules. > If you are away from your computer when doing this then you are violating rules and could be warned or suspended for it. > > That said a good portion of players will just report you on sight whether you're afk or not just for using this farming method. > So long as you at your computer though and can respond to any whispers you get from potential Anet employee's who are checking to see if you are afk or not you should have no problems. The strange part is some of them will then whisper the 'bot' to tell them they've been reported. I'm _really_ bad at finding safe spots to stop and sort my inventory or respond to chat or whatever so I often get attacked when I do. If it's something weak I'll largely ignore it, if I'm playing a ranger I'll let my pet kill it, otherwise I'll drop 1 AoE or something and wait for the condition damage to do the job. Sometimes when that happens I then get a whisper informing me I've been reported for botting. I'm not sure why. If I was a bot either the message would never get read or it would just warn the person running the bot that they need to update it to make it harder to spot, which makes it less likely they'll get banned. And if I'm not a bot and will be able to see the message that means the whole process - reporting and whispering to tell me - was a waste of their time. Some of them apparently believe bots can reply to whispers to say they're not bots. I don't know if they also believe bots can report you for verbal abuse if you get carried away telling them what you think of botters and what they should do to themselves, but if not getting a warning for it must have been a surprise. I don't think Anet have ever whispered me though, I don't think they'd talk like that. I suspect they could use their tools to see what I was actually doing at the time, and that I was only standing there for a few minutes, so they didn't follow up beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 too much things to "detect", it wil not overload the "subroutines"? im not insighter of GW2 engine, but im programmer, its common people think that everything can be throw under a "detection routine", but this is a very performance complex issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Alik.9651" said: > > Actually, I need a clarify that do A.I. build count as bot? such as necro minions + auto GS#4 > > As long as you are at your computer when doing it you are not breaking any rules. > If you are away from your computer when doing this then you are violating rules and could be warned or suspended for it. > > That said a good portion of players will just report you on sight whether you're afk or not just for using this farming method. > So long as you at your computer though and can respond to any whispers you get from potential Anet employee's who are checking to see if you are afk or not you should have no problems. I'll do this. If it looks like someone is botting, I'll go ahead and hit that Report option and then move on and let Anet deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ape Ghosting.7396 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 lols..use the game features. Dont like it you have 3 choices. Quit the game, use the game feature or learn coding and get hired by anet to do your changes. People like you are a real problem in life and not just in gaming. You have this idea everyone should conform to your way and views on the subject. Bottom line your only option is to use the ingame feature for reporting. Its like some clown coming to my job and telling me how to do my job better........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anduriell.6280 Posted January 8, 2021 Author Share Posted January 8, 2021 > @"Ape Ghosting.7396" said: > snip.... learn coding and get hired by anet to do your changes. ...snip....... What about if you are happy with your current job and don't want to change. ...Sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Salazar.5430 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 Good idea, but some ppl can get be constantly log off cuz not stabile net connection or anet server problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaramSin.2693 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 > @"Moira Shalaar.5620" said: > This solution would prove problematic. Imagine being on a queued map (pretty common occurrence, at least on my home server) you start rebuilding a wall and something glitches so that you end up inside the wall. If there is an automatic rule that logs you out, not only are you removed from WvW, but now you have to wait the queue again to get in. On a reset night it is not uncommon for me to wait an hour+ just to get into the least queued map. If this were to happen . . . wow that would be a bad case of unhappiness. Exactly, as I said due to many bugs in game you can accidentally go "off-map" or be stuck into walls just using a skill or a mount or whatever thing you use, and being disconnected in competitive scenarios as wvw and pvp will cause you to re-enter impossible queues due to the recent limit on map population and you could wait for hours just due to a bug, not mentioning raids or fractals of high level for example, automagically disconnecting someone is definetly a bad idea (as the red area in game instances for example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaramSin.2693 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 > @"ugrakarma.9416" said: > too much things to "detect", it wil not overload the "subroutines"? im not insighter of GW2 engine, but im programmer, its common people think that everything can be throw under a "detection routine", but this is a very performance complex issue. Good point, this is correct, any conditional branch in the code o even a separate "thread" as proposed will slow the engine and change the algorithm complexity in bad ways, for this reason sometimes it's a better idea to let a different program to try to recognize a "bad" pattern from the player, with this intention in the past they added a sort of "spyware" that searched the clients for known hack programs, but this was a littlebit borderline with privacy terms.. In this case a report for "botting" (since until now do not exists a report for "hacking") could be the right non intrusive trigger, if for example the client could log a window of 5 minutes of selected "significant"commands (and here they must select the proper commands for this indicator) for the investigation on report trigger it could be sent to the separate system that could deeply investigate the pattern without affecting real time gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 A littlebit borderline with privacy? It was a lot more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaramSin.2693 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Alik.9651" said: > > Actually, I need a clarify that do A.I. build count as bot? such as necro minions + auto GS#4 > > As long as you are at your computer when doing it you are not breaking any rules. > If you are away from your computer when doing this then you are violating rules and could be warned or suspended for it. > > That said a good portion of players will just report you on sight whether you're afk or not just for using this farming method. > So long as you at your computer though and can respond to any whispers you get from potential Anet employee's who are checking to see if you are afk or not you should have no problems. Right, botting is quite different from hacking in this case and they should be investigated in different ways. Even if for botting you use an hack program usually farming bots are ethical problems (even if a great number of them could slow the map but is similar to a blob of players in a map, it's a different engine performance problem) hacking in competitive scenarios is a direct problem with you and your gameplay, to be precise here you must take in account PvP bots but the problem is not different with a player or a bot that use hacking "features", the focus is on hack in competitive scenarios, as improper teleportations, damage reduction, flight etc... So the problem is that reporting someone that use hacks, in competitive scenarios, for "botting" just give the wrong information to the devs but at the moment there is no other way and it's really a nonsense to wait that someone could have the time to read your report and check that a player it's using hacks, could maybe be usueful for botting (but from this practical point of view it is not) but for hacking this is not a decent scenario, they should be investigated in a different way, in my opinion there is a way to do it automatically on demand, is what other systems do in other fields like avionic systems or electronic warfare appliances that use other method ssince years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 > @"Noah Salazar.5430" said: > Good idea, **but some ppl can get be constantly log off cuz not stabile net connection or anet server problems** Which just translates to "bad idea" [that also creates more problems than it solves] :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaramSin.2693 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 > @"kharmin.7683" said: > A littlebit borderline with privacy? It was a lot more than that. I just tried to be polite :) the intentions were good but they were badly implemented, happens, we must be understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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