Condi Weaver Balance

[Loboling.5293]

Hey everyone,

 

I have a suggestion for solving the issue with condi weaver in PvP, while avoiding the potential heavy handed nerf that A-Net might come up with down the road.

 

In my opinion, the main issue of the condi weaver in pvp is the ease of applying the burst. By combining the glyph with primordial stance, the aoe procs will spread massive condi pressure.

 

My proposed solution is to have the glyphs charges, only be consumed by weapon skills.

 

I really think it'll have a big impact, while not really changing too much. This change will help players avoid the condi burst.

 

Let me know what you think, I would make this a general change for the functionality of the glyph.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if anet wasnt aware of these two skills working together like this. Reducing the amount of passive aoe damage is always a good thing.

[Fueki.4753]

Have you considered that it's not only Weaver being a problem, but rampant condition burst in in general?

Maybe Anet should tweak how condition damage scales.

Or tweak Stances, especially Primordial Stance, which seems to be this specific problem, rather than changing **Core** Elementalist for the sake of an Elite-Specialization.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> (...)

> Or tweak Stances, especially Primordial Stance, which seems to be this specific problem, rather than changing **Core** Elementalist for the sake of an Elite-Specialization.

 

Or tweak burning application instead of hurting all other weaver builds as well.

 

Reduce/disable double attunement condi application. Change glyph towards more active playstyle. Instead of double burning, push players to aim for cover condis and less burst. There are many solutions without having to hurt other builds, I agree with you in that.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> Or tweak burning application instead of hurting all other weaver builds as well.

I'd rather hurt all weaver builds instead of hurting the properly balanced Fire Trait line and hitting all Elementalists.

That aside, I think Weaver is overtuned anyway and needs to be put in line.

[Zexanima.7851]

Condi just needs to be designed in a way it **cant** "burst". They are essential damage over time skills that should pressure an enemy or team over time. I would rather them just scale back the damage per tick of burning, increase how long it lasts and lower the amount of cleanses professions have access to. That's a big change though and probably wont happen.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Condi just needs to be designed in a way it **cant** "burst".

That's why the condition system itself needs to be adjusted/changed.

Simply changing tick rates of conditions or traits that interact with conditions won't do much good.

If you simply nerf the Fire trait line to reduce burning, it breaks Elementalist without touching the underlying problem in the slightest.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > Condi just needs to be designed in a way it **cant** "burst". They are essential damage over time skills that should pressure an enemy or team over time. I would rather them just scale back the damage per tick of burning, increase how long it lasts and lower the amount of cleanses professions have access to. That's a big change though and probably wont happen.

>

> That's why the condition system itself needs to be adjusted/changed.

> Simply changing tick rates of conditions or traits that interact with conditions won't do much good.

> If you simply nerf the Fire trait line to reduce burning, it breaks Elementalist without touching the underlying problem in the slightest.

Yes, change condi over all. My suggestion is all condi should have their effect (damage, slow, ect..) reduced and their duration increased with a reduction to over all cleanses in the game. I used burning as an example but I was speaking to all of them , just wasn't clear.

 

[Lich King.1524]

this 'burst" lasts 5 sec and very visible for anyone,

 

any different class should be aware about it (if he is gold or above) and can just wait few yards away and then attack weaver safely. or remove conditions like guard

 

so it is not a danger at all...

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > Condi just needs to be designed in a way it **cant** "burst". They are essential damage over time skills that should pressure an enemy or team over time. I would rather them just scale back the damage per tick of burning, increase how long it lasts and lower the amount of cleanses professions have access to. That's a big change though and probably wont happen.

> >

> > That's why the condition system itself needs to be adjusted/changed.

> > Simply changing tick rates of conditions or traits that interact with conditions won't do much good.

> > If you simply nerf the Fire trait line to reduce burning, it breaks Elementalist without touching the underlying problem in the slightest.

> Yes, change condi over all. My suggestion is all condi should have their effect (damage, slow, ect..) reduced and their duration increased with a reduction to over all cleanses in the game. I used burning as an example but I was speaking to all of them , just wasn't clear.

>

 

I thought more in the lines of the damage increasing over time, so at first conditions just tickle at first and after 5-10 seconds they are strong.

That would make cleansing them actually be meaningful.

[Grimjack.8130]

Weaver's burning application sucks outside of Pyro Vortex(which is balanced), Pri Stance, and Glyph. Even Lava Skin isn't that strong, because of the duration being so low.

Do not touch something like fire 2, or fire 3.

 

Currently they are as strong without duration, as they should be in my opinion with 50%+ duration. Half their current burn durations.

[solemn.9608]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Condi just needs to be designed in a way it **cant** "burst". They are essential damage over time skills that should pressure an enemy or team over time. I would rather them just scale back the damage per tick of burning, increase how long it lasts and lower the amount of cleanses professions have access to. That's a big change though and probably wont happen.

 

Agreed, would need to be a major overhaul tho because lowering access to cleanses means balancing every single condi in the game, especially immob which is already OP vs weaver

 

@"Grimjack.8130" said:

> Weaver's burning application sucks outside of Pyro Vortex(which is balanced), Pri Stance, and Glyph. Even Lava Skin isn't that strong, because of the duration being so low.

> Do not touch something like fire 2, or fire 3.

>

> Currently they are as strong without duration, as they should be in my opinion with 50%+ duration. Half their current burn durations.

 

The issue is that if you can stack a peak of over 20 burnstacks though double primordial application + glyph application + pyro vortex and fire 2/3 they go down in seconds when bit by it. It's actually really interesting because the only ones who survive it are the ones with fast reaction time and good access to condi cleanse. Imo fire weaver is not THAT op if you're actually fighting someone with a proper build & good reaction time/reflex. But glyph/primordial burst is too large compared to the average player's access to condi cleanse -- either buff condi cleanse (i.e. make it easier to get more condi cleanses on niche builds) or nerf condis I say.

 

> @"Loboling.5293" said:

> In my opinion, the main issue of the condi weaver in pvp is the ease of applying the burst. By combining the glyph with primordial stance, the aoe procs will spread massive condi pressure.

I will acknowledge that this is an issue. The massive condi burst is very high. I think a nerf to glyph would be preferable rather than a nerf to primordial, since primordial has an actual animation (can be seen/has warnings) and the main issue is an outrageous burst on low cooldown due in part to glyph; also very heavily to primordial stance but I'm not sure if we should divebomb into balancing and nerf that by setting it's cooldown back to what it was previously was too. I don't know why anet ever made the cooldown lower across all gamemodes. In WvW, maybe it should be 25 not 20. Or at least 22 or 23.

 

But I also think that every PvP/roaming build, at this point in the game, should have the necessary mechanics/methods to deal with a single stack of burn. If possible cleanse and, if not possible to cleanse it asap, then begin casting heal skill, blast waters etc. The -problem- is that players are too often finding themselves off-heal and off-condi cleanse so it just reks them which kind of isn't fair. It makes face-tanking a fire weaver impossible because if you're going to allow the fire weaver enough space to get in your face, you will eventually go negatively out of sync between your defensive abilities and the fire weaver's hybrid condi/power burst potential (over a longer period of time - perhaps 40seconds roughly). Aka fire weaver wins if you stay too close to it, meaning almost any heavily-melee based build struggles to fight it.

 

The problem is that it's 1-second faceroll burst is too good with glyph and primordial at the same time because nobody is smart enough to run excess condi cleanse in a hybrid damage meta. It's like having half of a helmet. But you just can't convince people to do it because it will "hinder their ability to fight power builds" by always selecting sigil of cleansing and/or sigil of generosity as well or by selecting traits based on condi cleanse ability, antitoxin runes; meanwhile they lose 5/10 matchups because 5/10 matchups are hybrid or condi based. Like a snake biting it's tail and then hissing around itself in anger --- fire weaver is too op!! fire weaver is too op, said the one who had 50% less condi cleanse than the average meta player. But anet will nerf it and they should. **The balance should favour a meta where not everyone needs to run sigil of cleansing/generosity/antitoxin runes just to have a chance vs condi players.**

 

that's all I can think of for now

[Stand The Wall.6987]

lol made a post about nerfs with a tiny nerf to fire weaver but everyone laughed. people are so short sighted.

[Auburner.6945]

I believe the issue is the same as Condi Mirage back in 2018, except it's not as powerful as a Mirage used to be. The ability to constantly put out Burning and to make such condition act as if it's a Power build makes it annoying to go up against, especially that Burning needs instant cleansing.

 

Maybe an increase in duration with less burst might do it, or limit the ways of condition application... or don't make the Glyph's stacks remain up there for the whole 25s, so kiting can be a thing.

 

Still, I don't see the only issue as in the immense amount of pulsing Burning, but how boring it is to fight a Sword Weaver. Even if they can't kill you, you won't either on most classes.

 

Constant condition application + sustain = problematic.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Add an icd for glyph' strikes or make it "on weapon skills" + reduce the duration of the effect. It would avoid the 5 stacks of the glyph in 1sec with pyrovortex and the Primordial Stance; and we won't get twice the effect in less than 10 secondes because of the end of CD. + It would be pvp/wvw balance wihtout impacting that much PvE.

 

Primordial stance : why burning (3sec) do more than 2 bleedings (8sec) ? Burning duration could be a bit shorter in this skill.

[Roci.4638]

Not sure I am understanding this topic..

 

Someone has issue with a 180 radius skill having a little burst??!

 

what's the radius on spin-to-win reaper? is this topic even close to reasonable?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Roci.4638" said:

> Not sure I am understanding this topic..

>

> Someone has issue with a 180 radius skill having a little burst??!

>

> what's the radius on spin-to-win reaper? is this topic even close to reasonable?

 

Focus the reaper vs focus the weaver- huge difference as a good weaver can stall 2 players easily.

Of course fire weaver should do viable damage but its damage to sustain is way out of balance and the only reason the forums arnt blowing up regarding it is because if a players mediocre on weaver it dies very fast due to its ornate low sustain via hp/armor. With that said a good weaver that can utilize the specs evades and many defensive options it becomes far to sustainable for the condi burst it puts out.

[steki.1478]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Roci.4638" said:

> > Not sure I am understanding this topic..

> >

> > Someone has issue with a 180 radius skill having a little burst??!

> >

> > what's the radius on spin-to-win reaper? is this topic even close to reasonable?

>

> Focus the reaper vs focus the weaver- huge difference as a good weaver can stall 2 players easily.

> Of course fire weaver should do viable damage but its damage to sustain is way out of balance and the only reason the forums arnt blowing up regarding it is because if a players mediocre on weaver it dies very fast due to its ornate low sustain via hp/armor. With that said a good weaver that can utilize the specs evades and many defensive options it becomes far to sustainable for the condi burst it puts out.

 

I see nothing wrong with complex builds being strong in good hands.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Roci.4638" said:

> > > Not sure I am understanding this topic..

> > >

> > > Someone has issue with a 180 radius skill having a little burst??!

> > >

> > > what's the radius on spin-to-win reaper? is this topic even close to reasonable?

> >

> > Focus the reaper vs focus the weaver- huge difference as a good weaver can stall 2 players easily.

> > Of course fire weaver should do viable damage but its damage to sustain is way out of balance and the only reason the forums arnt blowing up regarding it is because if a players mediocre on weaver it dies very fast due to its ornate low sustain via hp/armor. With that said a good weaver that can utilize the specs evades and many defensive options it becomes far to sustainable for the condi burst it puts out.

>

> I see nothing wrong with complex builds being strong in good hands.

 

I dont either but the build shouldn't be balanced on it's high skill floor either. If ur great on weaver u should have great sustain and ok damage potential or great damage and only ok sustain, having both is broken and fire weaver has both so...

A class shouldn't be able to bunker on a node while having condi burst that rival damage build, its absurd.

[steki.1478]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Roci.4638" said:

> > > > Not sure I am understanding this topic..

> > > >

> > > > Someone has issue with a 180 radius skill having a little burst??!

> > > >

> > > > what's the radius on spin-to-win reaper? is this topic even close to reasonable?

> > >

> > > Focus the reaper vs focus the weaver- huge difference as a good weaver can stall 2 players easily.

> > > Of course fire weaver should do viable damage but its damage to sustain is way out of balance and the only reason the forums arnt blowing up regarding it is because if a players mediocre on weaver it dies very fast due to its ornate low sustain via hp/armor. With that said a good weaver that can utilize the specs evades and many defensive options it becomes far to sustainable for the condi burst it puts out.

> >

> > I see nothing wrong with complex builds being strong in good hands.

>

> I dont either but the build shouldn't be balanced on it's high skill floor either. If ur great on weaver u should have great sustain and ok damage potential or great damage and only ok sustain, having both is broken and fire weaver has both so...

> A class shouldn't be able to bunker on a node while having condi burst that rival damage build, its absurd.

 

There's still builds that have lower skill floor, less stat investment for sustain, higher range, better mobility, shorter cooldowns, more boon spam etc that need to be looked into before weaver though.

[Axl.8924]

How effective is weaver in SPVP_ just curious .

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> How effective is weaver in SPVP_ just curious .

 

For Fireweaver, It's good if played right, I feel like most players don't actually understand how to play against one and feel like they can just go full melee and win.. The burning output is what makes it quite strong

 

As for Mender Weaver, its pretty boring to play (for me) going to either far or home and stalling the enemy for a long time, you won't kill anyone but they shoudn't really kill you in a 1v1 situation,

[cgMatt.5162]

Not much cover condi on the build so at least you're not getting loaded up with 10+ condi and people can just W key away.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Roci.4638" said:

> > > > Not sure I am understanding this topic..

> > > >

> > > > Someone has issue with a 180 radius skill having a little burst??!

> > > >

> > > > what's the radius on spin-to-win reaper? is this topic even close to reasonable?

> > >

> > > Focus the reaper vs focus the weaver- huge difference as a good weaver can stall 2 players easily.

> > > Of course fire weaver should do viable damage but its damage to sustain is way out of balance and the only reason the forums arnt blowing up regarding it is because if a players mediocre on weaver it dies very fast due to its ornate low sustain via hp/armor. With that said a good weaver that can utilize the specs evades and many defensive options it becomes far to sustainable for the condi burst it puts out.

> >

> > I see nothing wrong with complex builds being strong in good hands.

>

> I dont either but the build shouldn't be balanced on it's high skill floor either. If ur great on weaver u should have great sustain and ok damage potential or great damage and only ok sustain, having both is broken and fire weaver has both so...

> A class shouldn't be able to bunker on a node while having condi burst that rival damage build, its absurd.

 

They should buff our scepter dmg so eles can finally play like a mage and not a pseudo warrior..you wouldn't like that either I believe

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Sustain is a bit tricky; as for me I'm not use to sustain with fire and earth (focus), but DPS is brainless.

So yes, you need to be accurate to avoid resistance, cleanses, boon corrupt etc .... like for everyone in PvP (except Mirage, he doesn't care) but being able to put 4k dmg + 3~4k burning per tic on 1, 2 and even 3 foes with one short burst (sword #2 + pyrovortex, primordial stance + glyph) it's insane. + the constant burning application otherwise.

 

Glyph of Elemental Power is really too powerful : effect last 25sec, CD is 25sec ... breakstun, no interval for strikes. This skill needs a review and fire weaver will be more balanced, busrt would need a better reading of the fight.