kraai.7265 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"kraai.7265" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > Eso u can restealth and aoe's take u outa stealth but going into stealth and being in stealth is a auto cleanse. Also way easier and longer stealth :) > > > > > > > > No it's not, if you are affected by a condition, each tick will reveal you, you can go back into stealth but it's useless, it doesn't cleanse, on the contrary condi damage will reveal you again and again, any sort of damage will actually, to me it's the best way to implement it in a mmo ever > > > > > > I think he is considering the aspect of your eso meets gw2 in other words in gw2 when a thief gains stealth with shadow arts and the right traits they clense conditions meaning the idea of having conditional ticks pull some one out of stealth just wouldnt work > > > > > > But you are looking from the eso perspective where its not as easy to cleanse afflictions on you especially against some builds as there is no universal poison dot for example there can be various dots on you that all deal poison damage while in gw2 poison is just a universal dot. As gw2 has a rarity of effects (which cant be cleansed) that deal dot style damage. For example Guardian GS5. > > > > Not to mention eso version of hidden killer is baked into the cloak already giving crits within 3 seconds after. > > Eso sneak is kind of weird though but it easily goes both ways. Most skills that would do damage or alot of them cant be pre cast from sneak and will auto reveal you on cast While there are a few exceptions to this there are not too many overall though dots in gw2 are too generous and too fast for this version of stealth to work in gw2. > > Thief would need major reworks. > > For now i think the best thing anet could do would be trade risk with reward. shadow arts providing more stealth with the penalty of massively slowing the persons movement speed in the process. So if you want to be sneaking for long periods you are slower meaning its harder to do damage with no tell should anyone opt to just move away. > > I would prefer a more balanced permanet solution but no thief main will ever agree with any version of lesser stealth without arguing for compensation on something else that also annoys non thief mains that they also wont agree with so i mean.... oof its in a tough spot. Nice idea, but i think it won't work because of steal, and Infiltrator's Signet, making them slower will just make them clunkier to play but they will still be able to perma stealth and land malicious backstabs I used to love how you had to do combos to gain stealth and sacrifice initiative to mantaing stealth upkeep, to me the worst idea they could ever have with thieves was adding stealth on dodge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassdeff.1895 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I am fine with stealth in this game for the most part. Yes they are annoying to fight against and yes I sometimes wish they had cancer but the stealth mechanic isn't the problem. The problem is a surprise attacks from stealth that hit for 15k. In WvW you basically start every fight against a thief with less than 30% health and their mobility makes it nearly possible to regain control of the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraai.7265 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > Okay, but if you nerf stealth buff thief damage mitigation. > I won't play a disadvantaged class, so if you give them more options to evade, block, or outright ignore attacks I'm totally fine with giving up current stealth access. > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > Are you implying all those shadow steps, teleports and other skills that change their placement on the fly aren't enough to escape and run away? > > Yes. > Most skills autotrack placement changes, so ranged classes would be advantaged versus them. Also what if thieves actually want to fight you instead of run away? > > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > @"hellsqueen.3045" said: > > > But long durations of stealth have also been important for PvE. > > > > For what exactly? > > Other than for skipping content that Anet designed to be played? > > > > I can't think of any meaningful application in PvE. > > Stealth is part of the damage mitigation of thief in that it helps cooldowns reset and allows for repositioning on a class that cannot afford to take much of any kind of damage. It's active armor. Its like guardian's passive armor, except it needs more skill to use right. > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > The skill curve is irrelevant, the issue is that a player should not be able be in stealth for a significant % of time, it's poor gameplay. If they have to be on stealth for significant periods of time then fix the root cause. > > Said it before, will say it again. > Stealth time goes down, armor, active mitigation, or some other version of sustain goes up. > Pick your poison. I have no problem with stealth being nerfed. Just be sure that is indeed what you want and you are willing to let them mitigate as much as mesmer, warrior, guardian, ranger, elementalist, and holo/scrapper in exchange. Whether that means extreme cd reductions on shadowstep or what have you. If you're just frustrated at thief in general, shuffling up how they play won't get rid of that. They will generally be annoying. That is their archetype. > > The one thing that I won't agree to, however, is "but shortbow/but shadowstep" as an excuse to take all the defense away from that class, because some of its defense consists of you not being able to see it and that's kind of annoying. > If you want less stealth, so be it. Prepare for more pistol whip, vault spam, dagger/dagger or tankier thieves, though; because we share the lowest hp pool in the game with Ele and Guardian and both of them have mitigation out the kitten. > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > no thief main will ever agree with any version of lesser stealth without arguing for compensation on something else that also annoys non thief mains that they also wont agree with so i mean.... oof its in a tough spot. > > You're kitten right. Asking for stealth nerfs with no compensation is the destruction of the class. Most of its mitigation is built into that. Put something else in its place or no deal. Well you actually have the most amount of dodges across all classes, plus some sweet advantages like cleansing on dodge, healing too, more dodge chance on lower health, etc But thieves tend to rely purely on stealth this days, like none of this other things exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodzynald.5897 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 This thread made me log in for the first time in a year I think. Finally people started to notice what I've been talking about in HoT-times. But it's not just the stealth that is annoying in this game. It's the mobility along with stealth. Current mechanic of stealth has no drawbacks, save for no contribution to point capture. No speed reduction, no hit detection be it a simple attack or melee. Now let's add this terrific amount of mobility skills that allow you to change your position on top of that and we get what we see (or what we don't see, actually). Of course, stealth/mobility player has to pay attention to how best execute their combos, but compared to stealth/mobility application in other games, GW2 is way too forgiving, making mediocre players decent, and good players nigh impossible to beat under any circumstance - even if you manage to outsmart them, their gimmick-loaded class allows them to counter such situation in a way that is not considered skillful, but cheap. Thieves, mesmers and even rangers can rinse'n'repeat endlessly until they wear down their opponent sooner or later. If they screw up, they have it easy to disengage in a blink of an eye even if you manage to land immobilizes or stuns on them, because they always happen to have some sort of shenanigan up their sleeve just because the cooldowns are short, so even if you manage to peel them, the passive-saving abilities or active abilities, if rotated decently, give an option to escape every 20-30 seconds at worst. And this is only due to special skills such as those that give stability. With mobility on weapons or utility skills that grant stunbreaking teleportation/movement it is way faster and easier to poke and dodge every 8-10 seconds, while thieves can do it even quicker, making this class to be more capable than it should be. But to give it some justice, the same issue regards every class but on different levels. Disengagement options should be either toned down, shortened or once-per-combat locked to raise the skillcap and shave down the rinse and repeat playstyle to which some classes have such an abnormal access to, that it is simply nauseous and a sign of half-baked design. I would rather see thieves, mesmers and rangers be introduced with less squishy-ness, being able to shrug off more damage or mitigate it in ways other than jumping around every couple of seconds like a rabit with rabies. That way they could stay longer in combat and be more strategic in how to apply their stealth or when it would be considered a good move to use that one mobility skill to take best advantage of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > I've been saying that since the game released. > > > > > > Stealth in gw2 is a "how to **not** do 101" guide. > > > > > > Stealth as a whole should not exist in any game that wants to be competitive but some other games make it more fair with movement speed penalties, you still can see through stealth, damage reveals them, long CDs, you can't restealth in combat, and so on. This game is the total opposite, stealth grants a kittenton of bonus, you can restealth and CDS are short. > > > > > > It's one of the mechanics were ANerf though they were smarter than every other game developer and done goofed, similar smartkittenery with shadowsteps, no resource mechanics and so on... > > > > > > > > > > you also forgot to mention that most other games have stealth tied to the characters for free. > > > > > they dont have to give up anything for it, they just have it. > > > > > and they sure as hell dont have less stats/damage/good traits becouse of it > > > > > > > > What do you give up to get stealth here? > > > > > > utilities/weaponsets/traits. > > > core 1shot mes for example takes : > > > 1 torch > > > 2 decoy > > > 3 mass invis > > > 4 chaos traitline > > > 1 weapon set, 1 utility,1 elite, 1 entire traitline. > > > > Every other offhand is trash. > > SoM is better but also provides stealth. > > The only elite worth it on core is MI, the others are trash not even worth the elite status. > > Chaos is for noobs anyway. > > > > To sum it up you gave up damage for some survival, damage that still is more than enough for instagib. You didn't gave up much. > > focus offhand is amazing, if you think otherwise you are wrong. > only thing torch does is give stealth > midnight isnt better, it doesnt even cover mantra recharge -> burst, thats why decoy is used. > with MI I will agree, but still doesnt change a fact that you cant use other heroics. > and chaos provides nothing other then invisibility duration and superspeed. > The fact that you find this giving up " nothing " says many things about you. > What games actually do is bake stealth for FREE into the kits. > > Example, one hero has movespeed boost that deals bonus damage on autoattack, thats it. > Stealth hero uses ability to stealth and gain movespeed, and his next auto crits, thus dealing extra damage. > Meaning stealth is FREE. > You dont give up stupid utility slots for it or entire traitlines or god forbid entire weapon skills. It is not amazing, focus 4 has a huge delay, and phantasm hits are weak, the only thing it's worth for is the projectile block. SoM has a shorter CD, which compensates if you compare it with decoy. PU is a noob friendly trait. True, stealth in other game is free, but it isn't so badly design as this one, gw2 stealth might be the most badly designed stealth in any game, ever, which is kind of ironic considering the fact that when the game was being design devs said stealth would be a hard to access long cd one. Movement speed bonus should never be associated with stealth, on the contrary, stealth should have a movement penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 If someone could link a specific build they think is causing issues, that would help a little. I am all for changing assassin's signet, giving DE's stealth attacks lower base damage but more of a ramp up (so less chance of 1-malice 1shots). But comparing to other games as if, somehow, doing things different on diferent games with diff combat systems is somehow relevant, I dunno what to tell you. I would bet money that every single game linked has had very similar complaints, support, and threads concerning stealth, pointing at other games (GW2 included) as a 'how to do it better'. For ESO, I would bet even more money because I mained a nightblade for the longest time. Similar for NWO. OP falls apart when you actually play those other games. @"Rodzynald.5897" - Imo, the ideal scenario for the designated mobile/hit-n-run classes would be to have things arranged such that, in order to win a fight, the resources they **would** have used to run away have to be used for killing the opponent, and there is a distinct difference between kiting to re-sustain and actually flat-out running away. At that, I think Shadowstep is both an amazing example and an awful example. If you want the cleanse on that skill, you have to press it twice, which negates the skill's mobility potential. Unfortunately, there is no such limitation on the stunbreak or sword#2 - running-away kiting distance is the exact same as resustain kiting distance. I'm not interested in my thief having more health or whatever. I am, however, very keen on reworking sword2 ranges and several other skills that combine resustain kiting with esacpe kiting. What if shortbow5 had no range limit, but consumed initiative proportional to distance travelled? What if Shadowstep, if used to break a stun, halved the teleport range? Heck, what if sword2 required line of sight to use or had its ranged trimmed a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > I've been saying that since the game released. > > > > > > > Stealth in gw2 is a "how to **not** do 101" guide. > > > > > > > Stealth as a whole should not exist in any game that wants to be competitive but some other games make it more fair with movement speed penalties, you still can see through stealth, damage reveals them, long CDs, you can't restealth in combat, and so on. This game is the total opposite, stealth grants a kittenton of bonus, you can restealth and CDS are short. > > > > > > > It's one of the mechanics were ANerf though they were smarter than every other game developer and done goofed, similar smartkittenery with shadowsteps, no resource mechanics and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > you also forgot to mention that most other games have stealth tied to the characters for free. > > > > > > they dont have to give up anything for it, they just have it. > > > > > > and they sure as hell dont have less stats/damage/good traits becouse of it > > > > > > > > > > What do you give up to get stealth here? > > > > > > > > utilities/weaponsets/traits. > > > > core 1shot mes for example takes : > > > > 1 torch > > > > 2 decoy > > > > 3 mass invis > > > > 4 chaos traitline > > > > 1 weapon set, 1 utility,1 elite, 1 entire traitline. > > > > > > Every other offhand is trash. > > > SoM is better but also provides stealth. > > > The only elite worth it on core is MI, the others are trash not even worth the elite status. > > > Chaos is for noobs anyway. > > > > > > To sum it up you gave up damage for some survival, damage that still is more than enough for instagib. You didn't gave up much. > > > > focus offhand is amazing, if you think otherwise you are wrong. > > only thing torch does is give stealth > > midnight isnt better, it doesnt even cover mantra recharge -> burst, thats why decoy is used. > > with MI I will agree, but still doesnt change a fact that you cant use other heroics. > > and chaos provides nothing other then invisibility duration and superspeed. > > The fact that you find this giving up " nothing " says many things about you. > > What games actually do is bake stealth for FREE into the kits. > > > > Example, one hero has movespeed boost that deals bonus damage on autoattack, thats it. > > Stealth hero uses ability to stealth and gain movespeed, and his next auto crits, thus dealing extra damage. > > Meaning stealth is FREE. > > You dont give up stupid utility slots for it or entire traitlines or god forbid entire weapon skills. > > It is not amazing, focus 4 has a huge delay, and phantasm hits are weak, the only thing it's worth for is the projectile block. > SoM has a shorter CD, which compensates if you compare it with decoy. > PU is a noob friendly trait. > True, stealth in other game is free, but it isn't so badly design as this one, gw2 stealth might be the most badly designed stealth in any game, ever, which is kind of ironic considering the fact that when the game was being design devs said stealth would be a hard to access long cd one. > > Movement speed bonus should never be associated with stealth, on the contrary, stealth should have a movement penalty. lol focus 4 is amazing setup and focus 5 is one if not the hardest hitting ability mesmer has access to it deals more damage then phantasmal berserker for example, does it always land? no but it always provides value. 1shot core runs decoy becouse it lets you decoy -> charge mantra -> go for burst. with SoM you will unstealth early and thus the burst is really easy to avoid. it also shows on buff bar so oponent know if you have it or not. also also, as I said before. i played nvo where stealth target can damage and CC you while you cant fight back. and it was fine if stealth is bad it means the balance of the game is bad edit also also SoM has sound queue so when you chain it with other stealth you give your oponent heads up of you coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Curennos.9307" said: > If someone could link a specific build they think is causing issues, that would help a little. I am all for changing assassin's signet, giving DE's stealth attacks lower base damage but more of a ramp up (so less chance of 1-malice 1shots). > > But comparing to other games as if, somehow, doing things different on diferent games with diff combat systems is somehow relevant, I dunno what to tell you. I would bet money that every single game linked has had very similar complaints, support, and threads concerning stealth, pointing at other games (GW2 included) as a 'how to do it better'. For ESO, I would bet even more money because I mained a nightblade for the longest time. Similar for NWO. > > OP falls apart when you actually play those other games. > > @"Rodzynald.5897" - Imo, the ideal scenario for the designated mobile/hit-n-run classes would be to have things arranged such that, in order to win a fight, the resources they **would** have used to run away have to be used for killing the opponent, and there is a distinct difference between kiting to re-sustain and actually flat-out running away. At that, I think Shadowstep is both an amazing example and an awful example. If you want the cleanse on that skill, you have to press it twice, which negates the skill's mobility potential. Unfortunately, there is no such limitation on the stunbreak or sword#2 - running-away kiting distance is the exact same as resustain kiting distance. I'm not interested in my thief having more health or whatever. I am, however, very keen on reworking sword2 ranges and several other skills that combine resustain kiting with esacpe kiting. > > What if shortbow5 had no range limit, but consumed initiative proportional to distance travelled? What if Shadowstep, if used to break a stun, halved the teleport range? Heck, what if sword2 required line of sight to use or had its ranged trimmed a bit? I played NVO where permainvisible rogue could attack from stealth, and every class could get stealth that acted as invulnerability as an armor enchant. it was fine for all but 2 classes, stealth wasnt broken. rogue and guardian fighters were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I wouldn't change stealth. I think its fine as it is. The biggest problem initially was lack of counter play (reveal). But over time anet has given reveal to a lot a variety of different skills. If I did have to change something, it would be maybe a damage penalty when you come out of stealth. That is to prevent alpha striking from stealth. This wouldn't apply to weapon skills that alter when the player is stealthed...like thief skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"kraai.7265" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > Well you actually have the most amount of dodges across all classes, plus some sweet advantages like cleansing on dodge, healing too, more dodge chance on lower health, etc > But thieves tend to rely purely on stealth this days, like none of this other things exist Go play thief without stealthing at all and see how that works out for you. Thieves are relying on stealth because they become incredibly easy to down without it or evade frames. > @"Aza.2105" said: > I wouldn't change stealth. I think its fine as it is. The biggest problem initially was lack of counter play (reveal). But over time anet has given reveal to a lot a variety of different skills. If I did have to change something, **it would be maybe a damage penalty when you come out of stealth** . That is to prevent alpha striking from stealth. This wouldn't apply to weapon skills that alter when the player is stealthed...like thief skills. Fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fueki.4753 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > Okay, but if you nerf stealth buff thief damage mitigation. As if Thieves needed any more active damage mitigation with All their dodges, Shadow Steps, teleports and even Evade on Daggerstorm. Even without Stealth, they have the easiest time of all classes to prevent damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > Okay, but if you nerf stealth buff thief damage mitigation. > As if Thieves needed any more active damage mitigation with All their dodges, Shadow Steps, teleports and even Evade on Daggerstorm. > Even without Stealth, they have the easiest time of all classes to prevent damage. Go play thief without stealthing in pvp and see how that works out for you. I invite you to try it yourself. Try to actively down someone without it. Stealth isn't some commodity as it currently stands for thief's current balance. That argument isn't real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > I've been saying that since the game released. > > > > > > > > Stealth in gw2 is a "how to **not** do 101" guide. > > > > > > > > Stealth as a whole should not exist in any game that wants to be competitive but some other games make it more fair with movement speed penalties, you still can see through stealth, damage reveals them, long CDs, you can't restealth in combat, and so on. This game is the total opposite, stealth grants a kittenton of bonus, you can restealth and CDS are short. > > > > > > > > It's one of the mechanics were ANerf though they were smarter than every other game developer and done goofed, similar smartkittenery with shadowsteps, no resource mechanics and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you also forgot to mention that most other games have stealth tied to the characters for free. > > > > > > > they dont have to give up anything for it, they just have it. > > > > > > > and they sure as hell dont have less stats/damage/good traits becouse of it > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you give up to get stealth here? > > > > > > > > > > utilities/weaponsets/traits. > > > > > core 1shot mes for example takes : > > > > > 1 torch > > > > > 2 decoy > > > > > 3 mass invis > > > > > 4 chaos traitline > > > > > 1 weapon set, 1 utility,1 elite, 1 entire traitline. > > > > > > > > Every other offhand is trash. > > > > SoM is better but also provides stealth. > > > > The only elite worth it on core is MI, the others are trash not even worth the elite status. > > > > Chaos is for noobs anyway. > > > > > > > > To sum it up you gave up damage for some survival, damage that still is more than enough for instagib. You didn't gave up much. > > > > > > focus offhand is amazing, if you think otherwise you are wrong. > > > only thing torch does is give stealth > > > midnight isnt better, it doesnt even cover mantra recharge -> burst, thats why decoy is used. > > > with MI I will agree, but still doesnt change a fact that you cant use other heroics. > > > and chaos provides nothing other then invisibility duration and superspeed. > > > The fact that you find this giving up " nothing " says many things about you. > > > What games actually do is bake stealth for FREE into the kits. > > > > > > Example, one hero has movespeed boost that deals bonus damage on autoattack, thats it. > > > Stealth hero uses ability to stealth and gain movespeed, and his next auto crits, thus dealing extra damage. > > > Meaning stealth is FREE. > > > You dont give up stupid utility slots for it or entire traitlines or god forbid entire weapon skills. > > > > It is not amazing, focus 4 has a huge delay, and phantasm hits are weak, the only thing it's worth for is the projectile block. > > SoM has a shorter CD, which compensates if you compare it with decoy. > > PU is a noob friendly trait. > > True, stealth in other game is free, but it isn't so badly design as this one, gw2 stealth might be the most badly designed stealth in any game, ever, which is kind of ironic considering the fact that when the game was being design devs said stealth would be a hard to access long cd one. > > > > Movement speed bonus should never be associated with stealth, on the contrary, stealth should have a movement penalty. > > lol focus 4 is amazing setup and focus 5 is one if not the hardest hitting ability mesmer has access to > it deals more damage then phantasmal berserker for example, does it always land? no but it always provides value. > 1shot core runs decoy becouse it lets you decoy -> charge mantra -> go for burst. > with SoM you will unstealth early and thus the burst is really easy to avoid. > it also shows on buff bar so oponent know if you have it or not. > > also also, as I said before. > i played nvo where stealth target can damage and CC you while you cant fight back. and it was fine > if stealth is bad it means the balance of the game is bad > > edit > also also > SoM has sound queue so when you chain it with other stealth you give your oponent heads up of you coming Um no it isn't, the focus phantasm is one of the lowest damaging phantasms out of the offhand phantasms, It's been one of the lowest for years then they reworked them and actually made it worse. I can tell someone, somewhere, is frothing at the mouth to say "but what about torch/staff!" torch is actually pretty good damage for a condi build (don't bring knives to gun fights kids) and I said offhand phantasms, the staff phantasm I believe is now the absolute weakest. Someone on the mesmer forum kept a list of this stuff, you should go look there and a guy called Frifox (I think) kept **extremely** detailed records of the DPS profiles of all phantasms and builds at one point but he's likely moved on. Edit: And we're not even mentioning the practicality of the way the focus phantasm works or rather doesn't work. Honestly if you think it's a good phantasm it's a clear sign you should be ignored in almost every single aspect of the game. The pull is OK though but not worth losing a skill for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I actually really like how Gw2 does stealth. The problem is that too many classes have stealth. Stealth should only be for thieves, but mesmers, engineers, rangers, trap builds, etc all have access to it. What I like about is that there is a lot of in-combat stealth and not as much out of combat stealth. Whereas other games have a lot of out of combat stealth and not much incombat. I like the ninja aspect of having a lot of incombat stealth for theives. What I would change is I would remove stealth for all classes that aren't thief currently, unless they are blasting a smoke field or leaping thru one. And I would actually give stealth to necros via a new elite spec, where they melt into the shadows, cause necros need some escapes. But mesmers, rangers, engineers, etc don't need stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Stealth's fine, leave as is! Buff dp thief pls :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > To put it in very simple terms...**stealth in Gw2 is just broken** > The main points here are [with respect to other MMOs]: > - You cannot restealth while in combat > - AoE dmg reveals you > - Penalties while stealthed > - Easy for the enemy to detect you > > All the elements above are **missing** from Gw2 in their entirety, it is for this reason that I consider stealth in GW2, one of the worst implementations I have ever seen in a MMO The implementation is bad because GW2 stealth has no actual role in the game. It's just another damage amplifier more than anything else. It doesn't let any particular class perform any sort of unique function or role: it just aids in DPS and/or serves as risk-reduction for damage rotations just like every other class-specific or class-shared mechanic in the game. This is sort of why Thief is "Teleports and Evadespam: The Class" rather than "Stealth: The Class," as well as probably the same reason why devs felt it wasn't a big deal to arbitrarily sprinkle other classes with stealth access too. Stealth doesn't change combat dynamics in any way for GW2; it just cruise control for easy damage openers. Stealth, in a way, is sort of in the same pool as GW2's Conditions: both of these things directly compete or work to amplify direct damage. They're both dead-end mechanics that either go entirely unused (I mean, take for instance how Thief barely uses Stealth anymore in meta builds; it's mostly just evasion/teleport spam while attacking) or outright supplant every other option. Just like conditions, if stealth-centric damage can't outperform non-stealth damage, stealth ends up completely irrelevant. Basically, GW2 has too many, overlapping ways to deal the same sort of untyped [DAMAGE]. This role-playing game has no roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > I've been saying that since the game released. > > > > > > > > > Stealth in gw2 is a "how to **not** do 101" guide. > > > > > > > > > Stealth as a whole should not exist in any game that wants to be competitive but some other games make it more fair with movement speed penalties, you still can see through stealth, damage reveals them, long CDs, you can't restealth in combat, and so on. This game is the total opposite, stealth grants a kittenton of bonus, you can restealth and CDS are short. > > > > > > > > > It's one of the mechanics were ANerf though they were smarter than every other game developer and done goofed, similar smartkittenery with shadowsteps, no resource mechanics and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you also forgot to mention that most other games have stealth tied to the characters for free. > > > > > > > > they dont have to give up anything for it, they just have it. > > > > > > > > and they sure as hell dont have less stats/damage/good traits becouse of it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you give up to get stealth here? > > > > > > > > > > > > utilities/weaponsets/traits. > > > > > > core 1shot mes for example takes : > > > > > > 1 torch > > > > > > 2 decoy > > > > > > 3 mass invis > > > > > > 4 chaos traitline > > > > > > 1 weapon set, 1 utility,1 elite, 1 entire traitline. > > > > > > > > > > Every other offhand is trash. > > > > > SoM is better but also provides stealth. > > > > > The only elite worth it on core is MI, the others are trash not even worth the elite status. > > > > > Chaos is for noobs anyway. > > > > > > > > > > To sum it up you gave up damage for some survival, damage that still is more than enough for instagib. You didn't gave up much. > > > > > > > > focus offhand is amazing, if you think otherwise you are wrong. > > > > only thing torch does is give stealth > > > > midnight isnt better, it doesnt even cover mantra recharge -> burst, thats why decoy is used. > > > > with MI I will agree, but still doesnt change a fact that you cant use other heroics. > > > > and chaos provides nothing other then invisibility duration and superspeed. > > > > The fact that you find this giving up " nothing " says many things about you. > > > > What games actually do is bake stealth for FREE into the kits. > > > > > > > > Example, one hero has movespeed boost that deals bonus damage on autoattack, thats it. > > > > Stealth hero uses ability to stealth and gain movespeed, and his next auto crits, thus dealing extra damage. > > > > Meaning stealth is FREE. > > > > You dont give up stupid utility slots for it or entire traitlines or god forbid entire weapon skills. > > > > > > It is not amazing, focus 4 has a huge delay, and phantasm hits are weak, the only thing it's worth for is the projectile block. > > > SoM has a shorter CD, which compensates if you compare it with decoy. > > > PU is a noob friendly trait. > > > True, stealth in other game is free, but it isn't so badly design as this one, gw2 stealth might be the most badly designed stealth in any game, ever, which is kind of ironic considering the fact that when the game was being design devs said stealth would be a hard to access long cd one. > > > > > > Movement speed bonus should never be associated with stealth, on the contrary, stealth should have a movement penalty. > > > > lol focus 4 is amazing setup and focus 5 is one if not the hardest hitting ability mesmer has access to > > it deals more damage then phantasmal berserker for example, does it always land? no but it always provides value. > > 1shot core runs decoy becouse it lets you decoy -> charge mantra -> go for burst. > > with SoM you will unstealth early and thus the burst is really easy to avoid. > > it also shows on buff bar so oponent know if you have it or not. > > > > also also, as I said before. > > i played nvo where stealth target can damage and CC you while you cant fight back. and it was fine > > if stealth is bad it means the balance of the game is bad > > > > edit > > also also > > SoM has sound queue so when you chain it with other stealth you give your oponent heads up of you coming > > Um no it isn't, the focus phantasm is one of the lowest damaging phantasms out of the offhand phantasms, It's been one of the lowest for years then they reworked them and actually made it worse. > > I can tell someone, somewhere, is frothing at the mouth to say "but what about torch/staff!" torch is actually pretty good damage for a condi build (don't bring knives to gun fights kids) and I said offhand phantasms, the staff phantasm I believe is now the absolute weakest. > > Someone on the mesmer forum kept a list of this stuff, you should go look there and a guy called Frifox (I think) kept **extremely** detailed records of the DPS profiles of all phantasms and builds at one point but he's likely moved on. > > Edit: And we're not even mentioning the practicality of the way the focus phantasm works or rather doesn't work. Honestly if you think it's a good phantasm it's a clear sign you should be ignored in almost every single aspect of the game. The pull is OK though but not worth losing a skill for. or maybe you should be ignored, since you take stuff out of your ass like this for example : " Um no it isn't, the focus phantasm is one of the lowest damaging phantasms out of the offhand phantasms " focus is power weapon, so I will compare it to all off hand weapons as power spec, for condi ofc its bad becouse you know, its POWER weapon. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Mage -> Damage: 504 (0.5)? ( torch ) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Duelist -> Illusion Damage (8x): 928 (0.92)? + Damage (3x): 120 (0.33)? [ 1048 (1,25) ] -> pistol https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Swordsman -> Sword strike damage: 183 (0.5)? + Damage: 504 (0.5)? [ 687 (1,00) ] -> sword https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Warden -> Damage (12x): 1,692 (1.68)? -> focus. Out of all 4 usable offhand weapons from mesmer, phantasm deals the least ammout of damage with the phantasm you also mentioned practicality of the phantasm. sword phantasm attacks air torch phantasm gets dodged by holding w pistol phantasm is the only " reliable one " along with focus, the only fault warden has is that it attack random target, but its still more reliable then torch or sword. To sum it up, you are incorrect about practicality. You are incorrect about damage values. For all its worth I think sword values are wrong or skewed. Also fun fact, you can combine light field ( curtain ) + warden for alot of cleansing. try it out, constant spew of cleansing is good against some build, keeps you safe untill she despawns/dies. Edit. to sum warden up, she deals the most damage, provides extra utility ( proj block ) and potentially mass cleansing ( in light field ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulSin.5682 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 The funniest fact is that stealth has such a heavy utility tax in Mesmer and Thief classes that if they remove the mechanic they would make both classes insanely broken due to balance compensation. But alas, people that don't even PvP prefer to complain about what they can't see instead of what actually kills then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 It's really just another checkmark in the long list of problems that make it so GW2 requires too little mechanical skill to play. I'd say maybe less than 10% of the PvP playerbase actually understands counterplay. The rest are build carried trash being carried by scrub-pandering game mechanics that shouldn't exist in any PvP game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > I've been saying that since the game released. > > > > > > > > > > Stealth in gw2 is a "how to **not** do 101" guide. > > > > > > > > > > Stealth as a whole should not exist in any game that wants to be competitive but some other games make it more fair with movement speed penalties, you still can see through stealth, damage reveals them, long CDs, you can't restealth in combat, and so on. This game is the total opposite, stealth grants a kittenton of bonus, you can restealth and CDS are short. > > > > > > > > > > It's one of the mechanics were ANerf though they were smarter than every other game developer and done goofed, similar smartkittenery with shadowsteps, no resource mechanics and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you also forgot to mention that most other games have stealth tied to the characters for free. > > > > > > > > > they dont have to give up anything for it, they just have it. > > > > > > > > > and they sure as hell dont have less stats/damage/good traits becouse of it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you give up to get stealth here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > utilities/weaponsets/traits. > > > > > > > core 1shot mes for example takes : > > > > > > > 1 torch > > > > > > > 2 decoy > > > > > > > 3 mass invis > > > > > > > 4 chaos traitline > > > > > > > 1 weapon set, 1 utility,1 elite, 1 entire traitline. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every other offhand is trash. > > > > > > SoM is better but also provides stealth. > > > > > > The only elite worth it on core is MI, the others are trash not even worth the elite status. > > > > > > Chaos is for noobs anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > To sum it up you gave up damage for some survival, damage that still is more than enough for instagib. You didn't gave up much. > > > > > > > > > > focus offhand is amazing, if you think otherwise you are wrong. > > > > > only thing torch does is give stealth > > > > > midnight isnt better, it doesnt even cover mantra recharge -> burst, thats why decoy is used. > > > > > with MI I will agree, but still doesnt change a fact that you cant use other heroics. > > > > > and chaos provides nothing other then invisibility duration and superspeed. > > > > > The fact that you find this giving up " nothing " says many things about you. > > > > > What games actually do is bake stealth for FREE into the kits. > > > > > > > > > > Example, one hero has movespeed boost that deals bonus damage on autoattack, thats it. > > > > > Stealth hero uses ability to stealth and gain movespeed, and his next auto crits, thus dealing extra damage. > > > > > Meaning stealth is FREE. > > > > > You dont give up stupid utility slots for it or entire traitlines or god forbid entire weapon skills. > > > > > > > > It is not amazing, focus 4 has a huge delay, and phantasm hits are weak, the only thing it's worth for is the projectile block. > > > > SoM has a shorter CD, which compensates if you compare it with decoy. > > > > PU is a noob friendly trait. > > > > True, stealth in other game is free, but it isn't so badly design as this one, gw2 stealth might be the most badly designed stealth in any game, ever, which is kind of ironic considering the fact that when the game was being design devs said stealth would be a hard to access long cd one. > > > > > > > > Movement speed bonus should never be associated with stealth, on the contrary, stealth should have a movement penalty. > > > > > > lol focus 4 is amazing setup and focus 5 is one if not the hardest hitting ability mesmer has access to > > > it deals more damage then phantasmal berserker for example, does it always land? no but it always provides value. > > > 1shot core runs decoy becouse it lets you decoy -> charge mantra -> go for burst. > > > with SoM you will unstealth early and thus the burst is really easy to avoid. > > > it also shows on buff bar so oponent know if you have it or not. > > > > > > also also, as I said before. > > > i played nvo where stealth target can damage and CC you while you cant fight back. and it was fine > > > if stealth is bad it means the balance of the game is bad > > > > > > edit > > > also also > > > SoM has sound queue so when you chain it with other stealth you give your oponent heads up of you coming > > > > Um no it isn't, the focus phantasm is one of the lowest damaging phantasms out of the offhand phantasms, It's been one of the lowest for years then they reworked them and actually made it worse. > > > > I can tell someone, somewhere, is frothing at the mouth to say "but what about torch/staff!" torch is actually pretty good damage for a condi build (don't bring knives to gun fights kids) and I said offhand phantasms, the staff phantasm I believe is now the absolute weakest. > > > > Someone on the mesmer forum kept a list of this stuff, you should go look there and a guy called Frifox (I think) kept **extremely** detailed records of the DPS profiles of all phantasms and builds at one point but he's likely moved on. > > > > Edit: And we're not even mentioning the practicality of the way the focus phantasm works or rather doesn't work. Honestly if you think it's a good phantasm it's a clear sign you should be ignored in almost every single aspect of the game. The pull is OK though but not worth losing a skill for. > > or maybe you should be ignored, since you take stuff out of your kitten like this for example : > > " Um no it isn't, the focus phantasm is one of the lowest damaging phantasms out of the offhand phantasms " > focus is power weapon, so I will compare it to all off hand weapons as power spec, for condi ofc its bad becouse you know, its POWER weapon. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Mage -> Damage: 504 (0.5)? ( torch ) > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Duelist -> Illusion Damage (8x): 928 (0.92)? + Damage (3x): 120 (0.33)? [ 1048 (1,25) ] -> pistol > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Swordsman -> Sword strike damage: 183 (0.5)? + Damage: 504 (0.5)? [ 687 (1,00) ] -> sword > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Warden -> Damage (12x): 1,692 (1.68)? -> focus. > Out of all 4 usable offhand weapons from mesmer, phantasm deals the least ammout of damage with the phantasm > > you also mentioned practicality of the phantasm. > sword phantasm attacks air > torch phantasm gets dodged by holding w > pistol phantasm is the only " reliable one " > along with focus, the only fault warden has is that it attack random target, but its still more reliable then torch or sword. > > To sum it up, you are incorrect about practicality. > You are incorrect about damage values. > For all its worth I think sword values are wrong or skewed. > > Also fun fact, you can combine light field ( curtain ) + warden for alot of cleansing. try it out, constant spew of cleansing is good against some build, keeps you safe untill she despawns/dies. > > Edit. > to sum warden up, she deals the most damage, provides extra utility ( proj block ) and potentially mass cleansing ( in light field ) > I would encourage you to go into the game and test it out for yourself. The practicality problem with warden is it stands there and attacks ONE random target with each axe so it has poor scaling in numbers as well as being easily killed or walked away from before it does any meaningful damage because it takes so long to output it's damage. Once again, go in game and find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I've been saying that since the game released. > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth in gw2 is a "how to **not** do 101" guide. > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth as a whole should not exist in any game that wants to be competitive but some other games make it more fair with movement speed penalties, you still can see through stealth, damage reveals them, long CDs, you can't restealth in combat, and so on. This game is the total opposite, stealth grants a kittenton of bonus, you can restealth and CDS are short. > > > > > > > > > > > It's one of the mechanics were ANerf though they were smarter than every other game developer and done goofed, similar smartkittenery with shadowsteps, no resource mechanics and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you also forgot to mention that most other games have stealth tied to the characters for free. > > > > > > > > > > they dont have to give up anything for it, they just have it. > > > > > > > > > > and they sure as hell dont have less stats/damage/good traits becouse of it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you give up to get stealth here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > utilities/weaponsets/traits. > > > > > > > > core 1shot mes for example takes : > > > > > > > > 1 torch > > > > > > > > 2 decoy > > > > > > > > 3 mass invis > > > > > > > > 4 chaos traitline > > > > > > > > 1 weapon set, 1 utility,1 elite, 1 entire traitline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every other offhand is trash. > > > > > > > SoM is better but also provides stealth. > > > > > > > The only elite worth it on core is MI, the others are trash not even worth the elite status. > > > > > > > Chaos is for noobs anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To sum it up you gave up damage for some survival, damage that still is more than enough for instagib. You didn't gave up much. > > > > > > > > > > > > focus offhand is amazing, if you think otherwise you are wrong. > > > > > > only thing torch does is give stealth > > > > > > midnight isnt better, it doesnt even cover mantra recharge -> burst, thats why decoy is used. > > > > > > with MI I will agree, but still doesnt change a fact that you cant use other heroics. > > > > > > and chaos provides nothing other then invisibility duration and superspeed. > > > > > > The fact that you find this giving up " nothing " says many things about you. > > > > > > What games actually do is bake stealth for FREE into the kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > Example, one hero has movespeed boost that deals bonus damage on autoattack, thats it. > > > > > > Stealth hero uses ability to stealth and gain movespeed, and his next auto crits, thus dealing extra damage. > > > > > > Meaning stealth is FREE. > > > > > > You dont give up stupid utility slots for it or entire traitlines or god forbid entire weapon skills. > > > > > > > > > > It is not amazing, focus 4 has a huge delay, and phantasm hits are weak, the only thing it's worth for is the projectile block. > > > > > SoM has a shorter CD, which compensates if you compare it with decoy. > > > > > PU is a noob friendly trait. > > > > > True, stealth in other game is free, but it isn't so badly design as this one, gw2 stealth might be the most badly designed stealth in any game, ever, which is kind of ironic considering the fact that when the game was being design devs said stealth would be a hard to access long cd one. > > > > > > > > > > Movement speed bonus should never be associated with stealth, on the contrary, stealth should have a movement penalty. > > > > > > > > lol focus 4 is amazing setup and focus 5 is one if not the hardest hitting ability mesmer has access to > > > > it deals more damage then phantasmal berserker for example, does it always land? no but it always provides value. > > > > 1shot core runs decoy becouse it lets you decoy -> charge mantra -> go for burst. > > > > with SoM you will unstealth early and thus the burst is really easy to avoid. > > > > it also shows on buff bar so oponent know if you have it or not. > > > > > > > > also also, as I said before. > > > > i played nvo where stealth target can damage and CC you while you cant fight back. and it was fine > > > > if stealth is bad it means the balance of the game is bad > > > > > > > > edit > > > > also also > > > > SoM has sound queue so when you chain it with other stealth you give your oponent heads up of you coming > > > > > > Um no it isn't, the focus phantasm is one of the lowest damaging phantasms out of the offhand phantasms, It's been one of the lowest for years then they reworked them and actually made it worse. > > > > > > I can tell someone, somewhere, is frothing at the mouth to say "but what about torch/staff!" torch is actually pretty good damage for a condi build (don't bring knives to gun fights kids) and I said offhand phantasms, the staff phantasm I believe is now the absolute weakest. > > > > > > Someone on the mesmer forum kept a list of this stuff, you should go look there and a guy called Frifox (I think) kept **extremely** detailed records of the DPS profiles of all phantasms and builds at one point but he's likely moved on. > > > > > > Edit: And we're not even mentioning the practicality of the way the focus phantasm works or rather doesn't work. Honestly if you think it's a good phantasm it's a clear sign you should be ignored in almost every single aspect of the game. The pull is OK though but not worth losing a skill for. > > > > or maybe you should be ignored, since you take stuff out of your kitten like this for example : > > > > " Um no it isn't, the focus phantasm is one of the lowest damaging phantasms out of the offhand phantasms " > > focus is power weapon, so I will compare it to all off hand weapons as power spec, for condi ofc its bad becouse you know, its POWER weapon. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Mage -> Damage: 504 (0.5)? ( torch ) > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Duelist -> Illusion Damage (8x): 928 (0.92)? + Damage (3x): 120 (0.33)? [ 1048 (1,25) ] -> pistol > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Swordsman -> Sword strike damage: 183 (0.5)? + Damage: 504 (0.5)? [ 687 (1,00) ] -> sword > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Warden -> Damage (12x): 1,692 (1.68)? -> focus. > > Out of all 4 usable offhand weapons from mesmer, phantasm deals the least ammout of damage with the phantasm > > > > you also mentioned practicality of the phantasm. > > sword phantasm attacks air > > torch phantasm gets dodged by holding w > > pistol phantasm is the only " reliable one " > > along with focus, the only fault warden has is that it attack random target, but its still more reliable then torch or sword. > > > > To sum it up, you are incorrect about practicality. > > You are incorrect about damage values. > > For all its worth I think sword values are wrong or skewed. > > > > Also fun fact, you can combine light field ( curtain ) + warden for alot of cleansing. try it out, constant spew of cleansing is good against some build, keeps you safe untill she despawns/dies. > > > > Edit. > > to sum warden up, she deals the most damage, provides extra utility ( proj block ) and potentially mass cleansing ( in light field ) > > > > I would encourage you to go into the game and test it out for yourself. > > The practicality problem with warden is it stands there and attacks ONE random target with each axe so it has poor scaling in numbers as well as being easily killed or walked away from before it does any meaningful damage because it takes so long to output it's damage. > > Once again, go in game and find out. once again go in game and use other phantasms torch and sword is even worse. numbers dont like, you on the other hand do lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 It is like apharma said, axe phantasm damage takes a lot of time to do damage, it splits among targets and is easily avoided. It used to be somewhat good before the phantasm rework since it had tremendous synergy with focus 4 if you timed it right, think axe 5 and 4 on ranger. Now with the projectiles it's useless. Focus 4 has a huge aftercast before you could pull. Even with mind game no one with half a brain will fall for it. Torch phantasm is bad, yes it is, torch is still the better offhand of the bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraai.7265 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"kraai.7265" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > Well you actually have the most amount of dodges across all classes, plus some sweet advantages like cleansing on dodge, healing too, more dodge chance on lower health, etc > > But thieves tend to rely purely on stealth this days, like none of this other things exist > > Go play thief without stealthing at all and see how that works out for you. Thieves are relying on stealth because they become incredibly easy to down without it or evade frames. > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > I wouldn't change stealth. I think its fine as it is. The biggest problem initially was lack of counter play (reveal). But over time anet has given reveal to a lot a variety of different skills. If I did have to change something, **it would be maybe a damage penalty when you come out of stealth** . That is to prevent alpha striking from stealth. This wouldn't apply to weapon skills that alter when the player is stealthed...like thief skills. > > Fine with that. I did, for several years, including this one befoe quitting the game 1 month ago, month and a half maybe, sword dagger thief no stealth and it worked just fine, people tend to stick to what is easier to them, doesn't mean nothing else works just fine, yet stealth is overperforming right now, so i agree it should be stripped, maybe a damage boost for other builds but not more evasion, that would be insane, right now i know thieves that can dodge litteraly 3 combos in a row and still fight back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > It is like apharma said, axe phantasm damage takes a lot of time to do damage, it splits among targets and is easily avoided. It used to be somewhat good before the phantasm rework since it had tremendous synergy with focus 4 if you timed it right, think axe 5 and 4 on ranger. Now with the projectiles it's useless. > Focus 4 has a huge aftercast before you could pull. Even with mind game no one with half a brain will fall for it. > Torch phantasm is bad, yes it is, torch is still the better offhand of the bunch. I wonder why are you trying to argue with super bad/clueless people (even dare to accuse others in lie lol xD) in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Stealth's fine, leave as is! > > > > > > > > Buff dp thief pls :)  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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