Arheundel.6451 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > I think alot of what makes people hate Mesmer is the Stealth mechanic they share with Thief, even if they implement it much better and without some of the weaknesses since Clones kind of fill in the void it creates on Thief. If you think about it, most toxic builds wouldn't be so bad if you could see it coming, or if the Mesmer couldn't just disappear when you manage to counter it and it fails. > > Yes you can blame skills like Mantra of Pain but they're pretty okay in a direct fight. And Chronomancer only got nerfed so bad because they had the Firebrand problem of making groups virtually undefeatable when played right. > > I don't know what the solutions are, though.. Up to the creation of Condi mirage, I never had quarrels with mesmers...that **staff/IH** build changed everything though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Avatar.3568" said: > first: i play ranger not mesmer. > second: mesmer are just food and a legit free kill in 2vs2 or conquest !! > third: kitten what to buff but pls buff the class is dead !!!!! (listen to the players) As long as you **completely delete Infinite Horizon** I have no problems with buffing mesmer as much as necessary...above anything I want to see that trait deleted and whoever designed it, should think more than twice to create something similar, it's extremely oppressive to "fight" something that plays hide and seek 80% of the time from safe distance while a mob of clones reduce you to ashes by filling you up to the brink with condis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > first: i play ranger not mesmer. > > second: mesmer are just food and a legit free kill in 2vs2 or conquest !! > > third: kitten what to buff but pls buff the class is dead !!!!! (listen to the players) > > As long as you **completely delete Infinite Horizon** I have no problems with buffing mesmer as much as necessary...above anything I want to see that trait deleted and whoever designed it, should think more than twice to create something similar, it's extremely oppressive to "fight" something that plays hide and seek 80% of the time from safe distance while a mob of clones reduce you to ashes by filling you up to the brink with condis Ranger mains : https://imgur.com/a/MiacDvO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > first: i play ranger not mesmer. > > second: mesmer are just food and a legit free kill in 2vs2 or conquest !! > > third: kitten what to buff but pls buff the class is dead !!!!! (listen to the players) > > As long as you **completely delete Infinite Horizon** I have no problems with buffing mesmer as much as necessary...above anything I want to see that trait deleted and whoever designed it, should think more than twice to create something similar, it's extremely oppressive to "fight" something that plays hide and seek 80% of the time from safe distance while a mob of clones reduce you to ashes by filling you up to the brink with condis Once again: It is not IH it is the condi clone ambushes causing the problem. IH is a very active and skillful trait when ambushes are designed well as there are on power weapons. While Condi clone normal autoattacks are already op in condi dmg compared to power clones power dmg. Means the problem of Condimesmer starts on core already. And non of these problems got really and directly solved by the one dodge change and would also not be solved by deleting IH or ICD on IH. All what those changes do is dumbing down the mechanic and that even on Powermirage. I don't get what is so hard to understand here. Gosh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > I don't get what is so hard to understand here. Gosh! lol finally someone said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > I think alot of what makes people hate Mesmer is the Stealth mechanic they share with Thief, even if they implement it much better and without some of the weaknesses since Clones kind of fill in the void it creates on Thief. I > Up to the creation of Condi mirage, I never had quarrels with mesmers...that **staff/IH** build changed everything though. Mostly this. I had a period of time when I didn't understand power shatter mes, but after playing vs it a lot and yelling on the forums It's actually pretty fun to fight. Staff condi was the tipping point, and remains the sole reason I am wary about any buffs being made specifically to mirage. > @"bravan.3876" said: > IH is... skillful trait when ambushes are designed well This is the main thing. As long as we don't return to that spam meta where a mirage targeting you means you start picking up torment/bleed stacks/ambushes get reworked for staff and scepter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > I think alot of what makes people hate Mesmer is the Stealth mechanic they share with Thief, even if they implement it much better and without some of the weaknesses since Clones kind of fill in the void it creates on Thief. I > > Up to the creation of Condi mirage, I never had quarrels with mesmers...that **staff/IH** build changed everything though. > > Mostly this. I had a period of time when I didn't understand power shatter mes, but after playing vs it a lot and yelling on the forums It's actually pretty fun to fight. > Staff condi was the tipping point, and remains the sole reason I am wary about any buffs being made specifically to mirage. > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > IH is... skillful trait when ambushes are designed well > > This is the main thing. As long as we don't return to that spam meta where a mirage targeting you means you start picking up torment/bleed stacks/ambushes get reworked for staff and scepter. > > That is easy to do by either nerfing condi clone ambushes to the needed margin within the equilibrium of being neither too weak nor too strong, so it forces Condimirage into active offensive dodges or even better reworking condi ambushes into something equally to sword, means something that is more about effects/ utility and not dmg (as i suggest for Ranger pets for the same reasons, npcs with remarkable dmg on passive skills should not exist). In all cases normal clone autoattacks from condi weapons should be nerfed to power lvl, means nearly zero dmg. There will probably be compensations in condi dmg needed, that should be done in giving active condi application back to the Mesmer by shatters, which are overnerfed currently. Btw the EM change is probably what keeps Anet away from reverting that one dodge change, because with 2 dodges 2 condis removed with EM will be insanely broken. Sadly it seems Anet has no better idea what to do with that trait even though there were more than one suggestion made for a rework (incl from me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crozame.4098 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Free kill? If it is severely underpowered then at least one duoQ with mirage would not be able to win DuoQs with cancer builds and top players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Crozame.4098" said: > Free kill? If it is severely underpowered then at least one duoQ with mirage would not be able to win DuoQs with cancer builds and top players. What kind of logic is that? Ofc when players are 10000 times better than others they can make up stuff work. Just as low skilled noobs can win vs much better players only because of buildcarry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Idk about nerfs or buffs but i REALLY miss illusionary persona baseline, so much class identity and flavour and plain fun lost when they removed that. With the nerfs the class overall has recieved i think its at least fair we get this back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crozame.4098 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > Free kill? If it is severely underpowered then at least one duoQ with mirage would not be able to win DuoQs with cancer builds and top players. > > What kind of logic is that? Ofc when players are 10000 times better than others they can make up stuff work. Just as low skilled noobs can win vs much better players only because of buildcarry. ...... They are also against top players. So they are not 10000 times better. Maybe slightly better, but cannot compensate if the builds are as you mentioned, very very weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben K.6238 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > > first: i play ranger not mesmer. > > > second: mesmer are just food and a legit free kill in 2vs2 or conquest !! > > > third: kitten what to buff but pls buff the class is dead !!!!! (listen to the players) > > > > As long as you **completely delete Infinite Horizon** I have no problems with buffing mesmer as much as necessary...above anything I want to see that trait deleted and whoever designed it, should think more than twice to create something similar, it's extremely oppressive to "fight" something that plays hide and seek 80% of the time from safe distance while a mob of clones reduce you to ashes by filling you up to the brink with condis > > Once again: It is not IH it is the condi clone ambushes causing the problem. IH is a very active and skillful trait when ambushes are designed well as there are on power weapons. While Condi clone normal autoattacks are already op in condi dmg compared to power clones power dmg. Means the problem of Condimesmer starts on core already. And non of these problems got really and directly solved by the one dodge change and would also not be solved by deleting IH or ICD on IH. All what those changes do is dumbing down the mechanic and that even on Powermirage. I don't get what is so hard to understand here. Gosh! I was going to say the same thing. The main reason Infinite Horizon is dangerous is that clones inflict full condi damage but minimal power damage. Since the design theme for clones is an illusory distraction while phantasms were meant to be the dangerous ones (that needs to be reverted too), clone condi damage should have been scaled down to match power. Or perhaps they shouldn't inflict conditions with their attacks at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 These attempts to "fix" Mirage have resulted in nerfing core Mes to the point it's not really playable. ANET needs to address the real problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"Ben K.6238" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > > > first: i play ranger not mesmer. > > > > second: mesmer are just food and a legit free kill in 2vs2 or conquest !! > > > > third: kitten what to buff but pls buff the class is dead !!!!! (listen to the players) > > > > > > As long as you **completely delete Infinite Horizon** I have no problems with buffing mesmer as much as necessary...above anything I want to see that trait deleted and whoever designed it, should think more than twice to create something similar, it's extremely oppressive to "fight" something that plays hide and seek 80% of the time from safe distance while a mob of clones reduce you to ashes by filling you up to the brink with condis > > > > Once again: It is not IH it is the condi clone ambushes causing the problem. IH is a very active and skillful trait when ambushes are designed well as there are on power weapons. While Condi clone normal autoattacks are already op in condi dmg compared to power clones power dmg. Means the problem of Condimesmer starts on core already. And non of these problems got really and directly solved by the one dodge change and would also not be solved by deleting IH or ICD on IH. All what those changes do is dumbing down the mechanic and that even on Powermirage. I don't get what is so hard to understand here. Gosh! > > I was going to say the same thing. The main reason Infinite Horizon is dangerous is that clones inflict full condi damage but minimal power damage. Since the design theme for clones is an illusory distraction while phantasms were meant to be the dangerous ones (that needs to be reverted too), clone condi damage should have been scaled down to match power. Or perhaps they shouldn't inflict conditions with their attacks at all. Staff and scepter dps are balanced around the clones condition damage. You remove clone conditions you're talking about weapon kits that literally can't out DPS the healing per second from healing skills. Prepatch: Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Autos Berserker's Amulet: 2170 DPS Condition Mirage Scepter no clones Deadshot Amulet: 675 DPS Condition Mirage Max Range Staff No Clones Deadshot Amulet: 425 DPS Condition Mirage Staff No Clones 400 range Deadshot Amulet: 850 DPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben K.6238 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Ben K.6238" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > > > > first: i play ranger not mesmer. > > > > > second: mesmer are just food and a legit free kill in 2vs2 or conquest !! > > > > > third: kitten what to buff but pls buff the class is dead !!!!! (listen to the players) > > > > > > > > As long as you **completely delete Infinite Horizon** I have no problems with buffing mesmer as much as necessary...above anything I want to see that trait deleted and whoever designed it, should think more than twice to create something similar, it's extremely oppressive to "fight" something that plays hide and seek 80% of the time from safe distance while a mob of clones reduce you to ashes by filling you up to the brink with condis > > > > > > Once again: It is not IH it is the condi clone ambushes causing the problem. IH is a very active and skillful trait when ambushes are designed well as there are on power weapons. While Condi clone normal autoattacks are already op in condi dmg compared to power clones power dmg. Means the problem of Condimesmer starts on core already. And non of these problems got really and directly solved by the one dodge change and would also not be solved by deleting IH or ICD on IH. All what those changes do is dumbing down the mechanic and that even on Powermirage. I don't get what is so hard to understand here. Gosh! > > > > I was going to say the same thing. The main reason Infinite Horizon is dangerous is that clones inflict full condi damage but minimal power damage. Since the design theme for clones is an illusory distraction while phantasms were meant to be the dangerous ones (that needs to be reverted too), clone condi damage should have been scaled down to match power. Or perhaps they shouldn't inflict conditions with their attacks at all. > > Staff and scepter dps are balanced around the clones condition damage. You remove clone conditions you're talking about weapon kits that literally can't out DPS the healing per second from healing skills. > > Prepatch: > > Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Autos Berserker's Amulet: 2170 DPS > Condition Mirage Scepter no clones Deadshot Amulet: 675 DPS > Condition Mirage Max Range Staff No Clones Deadshot Amulet: 425 DPS > Condition Mirage Staff No Clones 400 range Deadshot Amulet: 850 DPS So... buff the weapon skills then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > Staff and scepter dps are balanced around the clones condition damage. You remove clone conditions you're talking about weapon kits that literally can't out DPS the healing per second from healing skills. Buff mesmer autoattacks delete clone dps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > Free kill? If it is severely underpowered then at least one duoQ with mirage would not be able to win DuoQs with cancer builds and top players. > > > > What kind of logic is that? Ofc when players are 10000 times better than others they can make up stuff work. Just as low skilled noobs can win vs much better players only because of buildcarry. > > ...... They are also against top players. So they are not 10000 times better. Maybe slightly better, but cannot compensate if the builds are as you mentioned, very very weak. Barely, most times i see them vs clearly worse wannabe goods or simple nonames. Maybe they get q dodged a lot, no clue. And Sindrener does a lot with his Thief to make that comp work. But i am not even saying Condimirage is unplayable, why should it? Anet didn't fix the real issues at all. They just forced Mirages more into toxic retargeting mechanic and from an offensive passive dodge trait (passive because of the condi ambushes, not because of IH itself) to a mostly passive defensive dodge trait (EM), which is rly strong right now, because condis are stronger than power dmg atm. The change didn't add any skill ceiling to Mirage, they just deleted all potential skill ceiling Condimirage could get with reworked condi ambushes. I am just saying your logic doesn't make sense. Also even for Condimirage (what is still braindead spammy and passive) you barely see anyone else except Misha playing it successful. Maybe it could be few more when you give them a Sindrener at their side too but still it makes more sense and is a way easier life to play Ele, Necro, FB... most other classes,... than a Condimirage, not to mention Powermirage what is now even more only something for masochists. > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > Staff and scepter dps are balanced around the clones condition damage. You remove clone conditions you're talking about weapon kits that literally can't out DPS the healing per second from healing skills. > > Buff mesmer autoattacks delete clone dps No, spammable autoattacks should also not be too strong, if you mean Mesmers own ambushes (what are no autoattacks) then yes, but still i prefer a compensation towards shatters not towards Mesmers own ambushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"Ben K.6238" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ben K.6238" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > > > > > first: i play ranger not mesmer. > > > > > > second: mesmer are just food and a legit free kill in 2vs2 or conquest !! > > > > > > third: kitten what to buff but pls buff the class is dead !!!!! (listen to the players) > > > > > > > > > > As long as you **completely delete Infinite Horizon** I have no problems with buffing mesmer as much as necessary...above anything I want to see that trait deleted and whoever designed it, should think more than twice to create something similar, it's extremely oppressive to "fight" something that plays hide and seek 80% of the time from safe distance while a mob of clones reduce you to ashes by filling you up to the brink with condis > > > > > > > > Once again: It is not IH it is the condi clone ambushes causing the problem. IH is a very active and skillful trait when ambushes are designed well as there are on power weapons. While Condi clone normal autoattacks are already op in condi dmg compared to power clones power dmg. Means the problem of Condimesmer starts on core already. And non of these problems got really and directly solved by the one dodge change and would also not be solved by deleting IH or ICD on IH. All what those changes do is dumbing down the mechanic and that even on Powermirage. I don't get what is so hard to understand here. Gosh! > > > > > > I was going to say the same thing. The main reason Infinite Horizon is dangerous is that clones inflict full condi damage but minimal power damage. Since the design theme for clones is an illusory distraction while phantasms were meant to be the dangerous ones (that needs to be reverted too), clone condi damage should have been scaled down to match power. Or perhaps they shouldn't inflict conditions with their attacks at all. > > > > Staff and scepter dps are balanced around the clones condition damage. You remove clone conditions you're talking about weapon kits that literally can't out DPS the healing per second from healing skills. > > > > Prepatch: > > > > Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Autos Berserker's Amulet: 2170 DPS > > Condition Mirage Scepter no clones Deadshot Amulet: 675 DPS > > Condition Mirage Max Range Staff No Clones Deadshot Amulet: 425 DPS > > Condition Mirage Staff No Clones 400 range Deadshot Amulet: 850 DPS > > So... buff the weapon skills then. > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > Staff and scepter dps are balanced around the clones condition damage. You remove clone conditions you're talking about weapon kits that literally can't out DPS the healing per second from healing skills. > > Buff mesmer autoattacks delete clone dps Anet will literally never do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 @"bravan.3876" Yes I meant ambushes. > but still i prefer a compensation towards shatters not towards Mesmers own ambushes. Before chaos mirage, we had illusions&dueling axe staff mirage and that was easily fixable with making IH baseline and nerfing clone ambushes. Then a certain group of people said stuff like "Shatters are unskilled insta cast and bloated". I love how they nerfed illusions into oblivion, making noob carry chaos line a better choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > @"bravan.3876" > Yes I meant ambushes. > > > but still i prefer a compensation towards shatters not towards Mesmers own ambushes. > > Before chaos mirage, we had illusions&dueling axe staff mirage and that was easily fixable with making IH baseline and nerfing clone ambushes. Then a certain group of people said stuff like "Shatters are unskilled insta cast and bloated". > > I love how they nerfed illusions into oblivion, making noob carry chaos line a better choice. The origin Ineptitude blind-confusion spam was pretty broken though. But deleting blind on 3 shatters already fixed that. They should give f2 shatter a decent/ balanced amount of condis you can trait for and depending on clones that hit and f1 an inferior amount of condis (just as it is on power just with f1 as main burst skill), f3 and f4 should not rly have condi dmg just as they don't have power dmg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > The origin Ineptitude blind-confusion spam was pretty broken though. But deleting blind on 3 shatters already fixed that. Dueling needed nerfs. I am talking about the traits which give torment and confusion to shatters. I would say illusions needs buffs and inspiration needs rework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > The origin Ineptitude blind-confusion spam was pretty broken though. But deleting blind on 3 shatters already fixed that. > Dueling needed nerfs. I am talking about the traits which give torment and confusion to shatters. > > I would say illusions needs buffs and inspiration needs rework. Chaos and Inspiration needs rework to something less passive (Chaos) and something less non reactive spammy (Inspiration) both should get way more skill ceiling added. The idea of turning Inspiration more into a support line that will support the group/ team and not the low skill of the player itself is good though. Chaos can be more about self sustain just in a more active and skillful way, and please less random (like random aegis procs are just horrible). Yes they should have traits give decent amount of torment/confusion on shatters but not on ALL shatters, only on f2 and a little bit on f1 in Illusion. Delete condi dmg on clone normal autoattacks and rework condi ambushes on Mirage into utility ambushes instead big dmg (comparable to sword ambush or at least gs ambush) while giving Mirage 2 dodges back (turn EM into a condiremove more relying on clones up or even on clones that hit. Means 1 condi removed for every shatter with less than 3 clones up and 2 condis removed for a 3 clone shatter for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 The thread has basically ignored an important point: Core Mesmer has been nerfed to the point that it is nearly unplayable. While I appreciate the desire for "skilled" play... I also believe there is nothing wrong with a more passive style. MM Necro is one example. Mesmer clones are untenably weak for both Chrono and core Mesmer because of this emphasis on Ambush. Mirage isn't the only spec and there are those of us who simply don't want to play it. Clones need to be stronger , since phantasm Mesmer has been removed from the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 @"Ithilwen.1529" makes a good point that deleting or moving condi clone damage to the Mirage player's Ambush leaves core Mesmer and Chrono with one less build option. Seems like a possible place for an Anet Trade-off™. Clone damage can be higher on core Mes, but virtually zero on Mirage. EDIT: Of course, they should reverse not-so-good "trade-offs" like one-dodge Mirage while they're at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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