A roamer's plea to balance stealth/reveal abilities next

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything. Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth. In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

 

[Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On)/[invisible Analysis](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invisible_Analysis): this skill would be okay if it worked the way I assume it was intended - If you can read where the stealthed player is, then hit them with an auto attack or AoE, you also reveal them. That would be an amazing skill and it would feel so satisfying to land. But sadly, that's not how it works 99% of the time. Everyone knows by now that if you're in the middle of attacking someone and they stealth, your next attack will still hit them. So really, this trait translates to "instantly reveal an enemy if they stealth while in combat with you" on a 25 second cooldown. Which, needless to say, is a pretty stupid trait.

 

["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): This skill is so busted that they even [named a PvP build after it](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Soulbeast_-_Sic_%27Em_Sniper). Soulbeast roamers will typically use this skill on engage and off cooldown - not to apply reveal, but because of the 40% damage and movement speed. Even if it didn't apply reveal, it would still be pretty much mandatory for Soulbeasts. So why bloat an already broken skill with unnecessary reveal?

 

[Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the ass for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

 

For Thief and Mesmer roamers, stealth is a critical part of their playstyle. To give an analogy: Necromancers, lets say there was a debuff that prevented you from entering death shroud. Now let's put that debuff on the 3 skills listed above. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your build and make you useless, but it would *certainly* make the game less enjoyable for you. Thanks for reading and comment your thoughts below.

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything. Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth. In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

>

> [Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On)/[invisible Analysis](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invisible_Analysis): this skill would be okay if it worked the way I assume it was intended - If you can read where the stealthed player is, then hit them with an auto attack or AoE, you also reveal them. That would be an amazing skill and it would feel so satisfying to land. But sadly, that's not how it works 99% of the time. Everyone knows by now that if you're in the middle of attacking someone and they stealth, your next attack will still hit them. So really, this trait translates to "instantly reveal an enemy if they stealth while in combat with you" on a 25 second cooldown. Which, needless to say, is a pretty stupid trait.

>

> ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): This skill is so busted that they even [named a PvP build after it](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Soulbeast_-_Sic_%27Em_Sniper). Soulbeast roamers will typically use this skill on engage and off cooldown - not to apply reveal, but because of the 40% damage and movement speed. Even if it didn't apply reveal, it would still be pretty much mandatory for Soulbeasts. So why bloat an already broken skill with unnecessary reveal?

>

> [Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the kitten for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

>

> For Thief and Mesmer roamers, stealth is a critical part of their playstyle. To give an analogy: Necromancers, lets say there was a debuff that prevented you from entering death shroud. Now let's put that debuff on the 3 skills listed above. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your build and make you useless, but it would *certainly* make the game less enjoyable for you. Thanks for reading and comment your thoughts below.

 

And yet you're perfectly fine with the DE elite. Rather hypocritical isn't it?

[UNOwen.7132]

The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence. In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist.

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

> @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything. Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth. In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

> >

> > [Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On)/[invisible Analysis](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invisible_Analysis): this skill would be okay if it worked the way I assume it was intended - If you can read where the stealthed player is, then hit them with an auto attack or AoE, you also reveal them. That would be an amazing skill and it would feel so satisfying to land. But sadly, that's not how it works 99% of the time. Everyone knows by now that if you're in the middle of attacking someone and they stealth, your next attack will still hit them. So really, this trait translates to "instantly reveal an enemy if they stealth while in combat with you" on a 25 second cooldown. Which, needless to say, is a pretty stupid trait.

> >

> > ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): This skill is so busted that they even [named a PvP build after it](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Soulbeast_-_Sic_%27Em_Sniper). Soulbeast roamers will typically use this skill on engage and off cooldown - not to apply reveal, but because of the 40% damage and movement speed. Even if it didn't apply reveal, it would still be pretty much mandatory for Soulbeasts. So why bloat an already broken skill with unnecessary reveal?

> >

> > [Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the kitten for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

> >

> > For Thief and Mesmer roamers, stealth is a critical part of their playstyle. To give an analogy: Necromancers, lets say there was a debuff that prevented you from entering death shroud. Now let's put that debuff on the 3 skills listed above. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your build and make you useless, but it would *certainly* make the game less enjoyable for you. Thanks for reading and comment your thoughts below.

>

> And yet you're perfectly fine with the DE elite. Rather hypocritical isn't it?

 

Where did I ever say this lol

 

I don't play deadeye but Shadow Meld has never been a problem for me. But yeah I guess any skill that removes reveal is probably not a good idea. Could you elaborate further on what's wrong with it?

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. **The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything.Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth.** In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

>

 

The implication is they had to add more reveals to counter stealth, but they were also perfectly fine with introducing a mechanic that removes reveal, is an ammo and has 0 counter play. So you complain about Lock On but fail to mention, hey maybe we should also rework shadow meld into something with counter play. A skill that counters a counter to stealth. Makes sense...

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

> @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. **The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything.Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth.** In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

> >

>

> The implication is they had to add more reveals to counter stealth, but they were also perfectly fine with introducing a mechanic that removes reveal, is an ammo and has 0 counter play. So you complain about Lock On but fail to mention, hey maybe we should also rework shadow meld into something with counter play. A skill that counters a counter to stealth. Makes sense...

 

I didn't mention it because Deadeye is so weak that it can go unnoticed. Shadow Meld doesn't seem to have this huge impact on gameplay like the skills I mentioned. But yeah, it should be reworked and I don't think it makes sense for any skill to remove reveal. Good point!

[rng.1024]

Lock On and Sic'em I get, simply because the reveal is just a bonus on top of the skill/trait activation rather than a purposfully thought out countermeasure (reminiscent of old Elixir S), and this needs to be looked at.

 

Detection pulse however have a huge cast time (even travel time), easily identifiable animation and **can be dodged** - other than maybe decreasing the reveal duration to a standard 3 seconds and increase the cooldown from 20 to 30 seconds, this performs just fine.

 

For the first two, there are no easy fixes:

- I get the idea for Lock On, but it's way to random as of right now and the cooldown makes it spammy on top. This would work better if it activated once you cc someone, because you still have access to that part of your kit while someones stealthed and it would gate itself on weapon/utility/elite cooldowns.

- As for Sic'em, it desperately needs more counterplay, therefore the effect should be turned into a consumable buff with 1 stack on the pet (or ranger when merged). The damage and movement speed on activation stays, it's just that now the first hit has to land in order for revealed to apply allowing you more time, clues and ways to avoid it.

 

If people are still struggling with stealth in this game it really is an ltp issue at this point. Sure it would be nice to see most stealth applications limited to say 3 seconds, but then again this would change absolutely nothing for those who already have a hard time dealing with stealth bursts.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything. Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth. In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

>

> [Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On)/[invisible Analysis](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invisible_Analysis): this skill would be okay if it worked the way I assume it was intended - If you can read where the stealthed player is, then hit them with an auto attack or AoE, you also reveal them. That would be an amazing skill and it would feel so satisfying to land. But sadly, that's not how it works 99% of the time. Everyone knows by now that if you're in the middle of attacking someone and they stealth, your next attack will still hit them. So really, this trait translates to "instantly reveal an enemy if they stealth while in combat with you" on a 25 second cooldown. Which, needless to say, is a pretty stupid trait.

>

> ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): This skill is so busted that they even [named a PvP build after it](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Soulbeast_-_Sic_%27Em_Sniper). Soulbeast roamers will typically use this skill on engage and off cooldown - not to apply reveal, but because of the 40% damage and movement speed. Even if it didn't apply reveal, it would still be pretty much mandatory for Soulbeasts. So why bloat an already broken skill with unnecessary reveal?

>

> [Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the kitten for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

>

> For Thief and Mesmer roamers, stealth is a critical part of their playstyle. To give an analogy: Necromancers, lets say there was a debuff that prevented you from entering death shroud. Now let's put that debuff on the 3 skills listed above. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your build and make you useless, but it would *certainly* make the game less enjoyable for you. Thanks for reading and comment your thoughts below.

 

None of those are what makes roaming unenjoyable for classes that do use stealth in any capacity, it's the amount of marked that makes it annoying.

 

Marked by a sentry? Fight one handed for a minute.

Watchtower? Well can't fight there or you lose a lot of your defence for positioning and associated traits get reduced.

Keep flipped and need to gtfo? Yeah enjoy everyone chasing you out with 5 rangers spamming 1 and 2 on long bow because you can't stealth for even 5s to find a safer route out.

 

Marked needs to apply a longer reveal but after 4-5s that way people that do use stealth as intended are not unfairly punished for ANet being incapable of preventing perma stealth.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> I've stealthed past people without being invisible

Level 100 thief.

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > I've stealthed past people without being invisible

> Level 100 thief.

 

His skill level is over 9000

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > easy solution: remove stealth from the game. No need for reveal anymore. Everybody happy.

> >

> > Well, apart from some one-shot-stealth-abusing thief players. But you had 8 years to ruin the game for everybody else. Time to stop.

>

> Who hurt you? I've stealthed past people without being invisible because a lot of players are completely unaware of their surroundings, these are often the same player who spout this "remove stealth from the game" nonsense.

 

It's not about 'hurting you', it's about giving each players an equal fair chance of healthy competitive experience. Wouldn't you agree?

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > easy solution: remove stealth from the game. No need for reveal anymore. Everybody happy.

> > >

> > > Well, apart from some one-shot-stealth-abusing thief players. But you had 8 years to ruin the game for everybody else. Time to stop.

> >

> > Who hurt you? I've stealthed past people without being invisible because a lot of players are completely unaware of their surroundings, these are often the same player who spout this "remove stealth from the game" nonsense.

>

> It's not about 'hurting you', it's about giving each players an equal fair chance of healthy competitive experience. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Hey look it's the guy that has complained about thief for 8 years

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > easy solution: remove stealth from the game. No need for reveal anymore. Everybody happy.

> > > >

> > > > Well, apart from some one-shot-stealth-abusing thief players. But you had 8 years to ruin the game for everybody else. Time to stop.

> > >

> > > Who hurt you? I've stealthed past people without being invisible because a lot of players are completely unaware of their surroundings, these are often the same player who spout this "remove stealth from the game" nonsense.

> >

> > It's not about 'hurting you', it's about giving each players an equal fair chance of healthy competitive experience. Wouldn't you agree?

>

> Hey look it's the guy that has complained about thief for 8 years

 

It's weird hes not shifting his focus to the real and current outlier's in the game at the moment like necro and burn guard/fb, oh wait he plays necro that's why lol

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

On topic, Lock On should not exist in it's current form. Maybe keep the reveal on CC but remove reveal on any hit.

 

Sic Em needs an animation to dodge. Same for On My Mark. Classes can have fancy reveals but they need to work like DH spear, it needs to be visible and counterable. Detection Pulse is plenty visible to me.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> [Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the kitten for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

>

Can't remember the last time I saw pulse used in a squad of any size, nor any commander calling for it while on my scrapper.

 

In a roaming situation, you can take advantage that the engy you're facing is only running 4 utilities provided you are playing power.

[UsurPator.6521]

I actually think, it's the other way around. Stealth needs heavy nerfs. Thiefs and Mesmers atm have insanely high mobility plus somewhat permastealth with nearly no counter if you don't make room in your kit for it. That a Deadeye for instance can hit you with 6k dmg and blink stealth to another location, without you being able to dmg him in the first place for instance is heavily unbalanced. A group without a lock on engi or a slb with sic em can't simply kill a DE when he doesn't fuck up.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > > easy solution: remove stealth from the game. No need for reveal anymore. Everybody happy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, apart from some one-shot-stealth-abusing thief players. But you had 8 years to ruin the game for everybody else. Time to stop.

> > > >

> > > > Who hurt you? I've stealthed past people without being invisible because a lot of players are completely unaware of their surroundings, these are often the same player who spout this "remove stealth from the game" nonsense.

> > >

> > > It's not about 'hurting you', it's about giving each players an equal fair chance of healthy competitive experience. Wouldn't you agree?

> >

> > Hey look it's the guy that has complained about thief for 8 years

>

> It's weird hes not shifting his focus to the real and current outlier's in the game at the moment like necro and burn guard/fb, oh wait he plays necro that's why lol

 

LOL you know, I'm playing Burn DH at the moment and I have 0 problems owning up to the fact that it is dealing WAY too much burn at the moment. People are trying to pass the blame onto Eternal Weaponry. That isn't it. Its Symbolic Power and Permeating Wrath ticking Justice too quickly. Even if Eternal Weaponry had the burn removed or an ICD put onto it, the hits would still proc Justice quickly due to PW.

 

Solution is to nerf either PW or SP in WvW/PvP.

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

Can we try to keep this on topic please?

 

@"apharma.3741" Sentries, watchtowers, and general stealth-hate in WvW is definitely an issue for small-scale roamers as well. Thanks for your input!

 

@"BeepBoopBop.5403" Detection Pulse was the one skill I was debating whether or not to include. You're right that it's much less of an offender than the other two skills. In a perfect world I would rather them give it a more distinct animation, but idk if the balance team has the resources to do that, which is why I went for the longer cast time. :)

[Clownmug.8357]

Discussing "enjoyment" seems like a poor choice when trying to promote stealth gameplay. Are we supposed to pretend the other players' experience doesn't matter?

[apharma.3741]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > I've stealthed past people without being invisible

> Level 100 thief.

 

Honestly it's mostly standing at the bottom of a hill or cliff or taking an alternative route with LoS.> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

 

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> >

> > Who hurt you? I've stealthed past people without being invisible because a lot of players are completely unaware of their surroundings, these are often the same player who spout this "remove stealth from the game" nonsense.

>

> It's not about 'hurting you', it's about giving each players an equal fair chance of healthy competitive experience. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Someone clearly hurt this poor lad/lass/other for them to complain as much as they have. If you want to talk about fair chances then marked is incredibly unfair to any class that uses stealth as it's defence as there's massive no go areas where they are crippled for using a mechanic.

 

What you cannot understand despite all this time on the forums is that there's a difference between a mechanic being broken and an inept balance team, stealth problems have mostly been the latter.

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> Discussing "enjoyment" seems like a poor choice when trying to promote stealth gameplay. Are we supposed to pretend the other players' experience doesn't matter?

 

I don't think that in-combat stealth is *inherently* bad as others in this thread have suggested, but it does need to be balanced. However, like @"UNOwen.7132" said, these reveal skills do nothing to balance bursty stealth engages. The devs need to attack that from a different angle, for example decreasing damage done while in stealth. **The reveal skills only really have an impact on using stealth as a disengage tool**. This is why they are such a problem for roamers. If you get jumped by a group that outnumbers you 3:1 or more, you should at least have the *chance* to get away. These reveal skills make that impossible.

[Heibi.4251]

> @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything. Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth. In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

>

> [Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On)/[invisible Analysis](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invisible_Analysis): this skill would be okay if it worked the way I assume it was intended - If you can read where the stealthed player is, then hit them with an auto attack or AoE, you also reveal them. That would be an amazing skill and it would feel so satisfying to land. But sadly, that's not how it works 99% of the time. Everyone knows by now that if you're in the middle of attacking someone and they stealth, your next attack will still hit them. So really, this trait translates to "instantly reveal an enemy if they stealth while in combat with you" on a 25 second cooldown. Which, needless to say, is a pretty stupid trait.

>

> ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): This skill is so busted that they even [named a PvP build after it](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Soulbeast_-_Sic_%27Em_Sniper). Soulbeast roamers will typically use this skill on engage and off cooldown - not to apply reveal, but because of the 40% damage and movement speed. Even if it didn't apply reveal, it would still be pretty much mandatory for Soulbeasts. So why bloat an already broken skill with unnecessary reveal?

>

> [Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the kitten for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

>

> For Thief and Mesmer roamers, stealth is a critical part of their playstyle. To give an analogy: Necromancers, lets say there was a debuff that prevented you from entering death shroud. Now let's put that debuff on the 3 skills listed above. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your build and make you useless, but it would *certainly* make the game less enjoyable for you. Thanks for reading and comment your thoughts below.

 

Sic 'em does not REVEAL. Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy. And the bonus damage is 25% in WvW and PvP when merged. It prevents stealth for the duration stated. So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have. And the thieves who stay stealthed for so long that they might as well be permanently invisible at least keeping them visible for 6s helps mitigate that. And I consider most thieves who rely on stealth to be not very skilled. I kill most of them once they can't steatlh. Unless of course they use all the low cool down escape skills that most try to carry.

 

So if you want stealth to be better my suggestions are as follows:

1. Must walk to use stealth. No one can be truly stealth while they run around.

2. Once in combat you cannot stealth again until combat has ended.

3. Just like everyone else inside a keep you are marked and cannot stealth after it is taken for the specified RI. Makes no sense for anyone to be marked while the thief can stay invisible for so long.

4. Oh, on a side note: Get rid of the 5 person portal or reduce it to only the thief being able to use it.

[kash.9213]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > easy solution: remove stealth from the game. No need for reveal anymore. Everybody happy.

> > >

> > > Well, apart from some one-shot-stealth-abusing thief players. But you had 8 years to ruin the game for everybody else. Time to stop.

> >

> > Who hurt you? I've stealthed past people without being invisible because a lot of players are completely unaware of their surroundings, these are often the same player who spout this "remove stealth from the game" nonsense.

>

> It's not about 'hurting you', it's about giving each players an equal fair chance of healthy competitive experience. Wouldn't you agree?

 

You'd actually have to play the game more than you drop salty mixtapes of staged thief fights on the forum to know what's equal, fair, and healthy.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything. Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth. In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

> >

> > [Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On)/[invisible Analysis](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invisible_Analysis): this skill would be okay if it worked the way I assume it was intended - If you can read where the stealthed player is, then hit them with an auto attack or AoE, you also reveal them. That would be an amazing skill and it would feel so satisfying to land. But sadly, that's not how it works 99% of the time. Everyone knows by now that if you're in the middle of attacking someone and they stealth, your next attack will still hit them. So really, this trait translates to "instantly reveal an enemy if they stealth while in combat with you" on a 25 second cooldown. Which, needless to say, is a pretty stupid trait.

> >

> > ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): This skill is so busted that they even [named a PvP build after it](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Soulbeast_-_Sic_%27Em_Sniper). Soulbeast roamers will typically use this skill on engage and off cooldown - not to apply reveal, but because of the 40% damage and movement speed. Even if it didn't apply reveal, it would still be pretty much mandatory for Soulbeasts. So why bloat an already broken skill with unnecessary reveal?

> >

> > [Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the kitten for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

> >

> > For Thief and Mesmer roamers, stealth is a critical part of their playstyle. To give an analogy: Necromancers, lets say there was a debuff that prevented you from entering death shroud. Now let's put that debuff on the 3 skills listed above. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your build and make you useless, but it would *certainly* make the game less enjoyable for you. Thanks for reading and comment your thoughts below.

>

> Sic 'em does not REVEAL. Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy. And the bonus damage is 25% in WvW and PvP when merged. It prevents stealth for the duration stated. So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have. And the thieves who stay stealthed for so long that they might as well be permanently invisible at least keeping them visible for 6s helps mitigate that. And I consider most thieves who rely on stealth to be not very skilled. I kill most of them once they can't steatlh. Unless of course they use all the low cool down escape skills that most try to carry.

>

> So if you want stealth to be better my suggestions are as follows:

> 1. Must walk to use stealth. No one can be truly stealth while they run around.

> 2. Once in combat you cannot stealth again until combat has ended.

> 3. Just like everyone else inside a keep you are marked and cannot stealth after it is taken for the specified RI. Makes no sense for anyone to be marked while the thief can stay invisible for so long.

> 4. Oh, on a side note: Get rid of the 5 person portal or reduce it to only the thief being able to use it.

Lol u kill most thiefs that are unable to stealth so thieves that rely on stealth are less skilled? I would hope ur killing the thief cuz any build meant for high stealth up time would be and is garbage as far as being viable in a fight especially if unable to use in fight stealth . Builds like dp have been so nerfed due to whiners like u that it's only chance to win a fight that's not a +1 is to continually use stealth mid fight.

Even thieves that build for non stealth builds are at a disadvantage in a 1v1 against most classes so yea I'd hope u beat them cuz all these players who are dying in 1v1 vs thief just got out played by a better player on a weaker build and that hurts their ego so good lol

[TakeCare.3182]

> @"Heibi.4251" said:

> Sic 'em does not REVEAL. Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy. And the bonus damage is 25% in WvW and PvP when merged. It prevents stealth for the duration stated. So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have. And the thieves who stay stealthed for so long that they might as well be permanently invisible at least keeping them visible for 6s helps mitigate that. And I consider most thieves who rely on stealth to be not very skilled. I kill most of them once they can't steatlh. Unless of course they use all the low cool down escape skills that most try to carry.

>

> So if you want stealth to be better my suggestions are as follows:

> 1. Must walk to use stealth. No one can be truly stealth while they run around.

> 2. Once in combat you cannot stealth again until combat has ended.

> 3. Just like everyone else inside a keep you are marked and cannot stealth after it is taken for the specified RI. Makes no sense for anyone to be marked while the thief can stay invisible for so long.

> 4. Oh, on a side note: Get rid of the 5 person portal or reduce it to only the thief being able to use it.

 

["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): Command. Your pet rushes at your foe, **revealing** them and dealing increased damage.

Effect (10s): 40% Damage, 40% Movement Speed

**Revealed** (6s): You cannot stealth

Range: 2,000

 

Sic Em' by definition reveals and the only counter to it is to never come out of stealth. Your suggestions are bad. Deadeye is the only class that abuses stealth to an unfair extent.

 

As far as adjustments that need to be made to stealth - I think it is mostly fine. I believe marked is OP and should be removed from the game. The individual class reveal skills are fine as is, but making them all more like DH pull where there is an opportunity to dodge would be nice. I think stealthing with bound dodge or the rifle trait is unfair because they cannot be interrupted AND can be used multiple times in a row. The deadeye skill that removes revealed should also be removed and there should be a GM trait added to Shadow Arts that removes revealed some way or another - that way the entire trait line isn't invalidated by one button. This could easily be done by moving Cloaked in Shadows to Master tier where it belongs and removing one of the meh traits that are currently there.