Psycoprophet.8107

> @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:

> More people play roblox pizza simulator than gw2 wvw... think about that

To anyone who's played wvw this wouldbe no surprise lol

Well I think its telling that literally every third player I see in wvw is running a variant of sb sic em build considering how useful the build is for zerging lol

Honestly u want arenet and the community to really take notice how "amazing " is as a brawler? Every thief should roll DD in conquest and just constantly try and fulfill the side mode role lol sure most games will go great for ur teammates, not to mention if no ones rolling s/d just to decap I wonder how many will make it to high ranks? Lol those same players that play other classes that pop into thief threads talking about how their fine in 1v1 will be yelling at u asking why ur trying to 1v1 with thief as their losing the match

lmao

Its gotten to the point that I've been running DA in all my builds just due to the improv and the ability to use stolen skills twice adding some flavor to the builds lol

All these years never even really like the traitline lol

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > But people are adapting. They can't hurt enemies in game, so they try to do damage by walls of text complaining about it.

> > >

> > > This is correct.

> > >

> > > Theres more conflict here than in an open world pvp environment.

> >

> > That just means we need forum mounts so people can run away

>

> That already happens. Someone tries to post some bad attempt at wit to discredit you, and then when you reply they are never seen again. Or maybe they come back with friends to blob your post down when you are asleep. (more effective if it were reddit though...)

Lol a forum ganking

Thief will just evade and stealth back stab for 15k lmao oh its that easy against these powercrept classes now is it?warrior being one of em lmao ontop hit thief twice with ur crazy over all dps and its dead. Few nights back me and another two pubs were chasing a warrior and I was behind him whole time feeding him staff blows n DD while the other two were unloading on him as well and ran into his camp where we couldnt follow,he ran for a good 10 seconds with us tagging him. He didnt even use his gs mobility or nothing,just ran so warrior gets no sympathy for me. Nerf was justified. Sustain needs dropped across the board as well.

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Penguinman.1254" said:

> > > Yes you can still hit 5-8 k per section the problem is in a real pvp fight they can dodge or mitigate 2 of the 3 rotations, giving you a 5-8k hit where as for ranger for instance a full glass ranger can hit for 15-18k with maul and it can be used more in a 1v1 fight. i just feel like if there gonna nerf the damage it should fall off per rotation or revert it back to the old ark divider cause burst damage is so important.

> >

> > Cant compare to powercrept class like soulbeast when discussing balance. It has a insane burst at 1500+ range lol as well as melee. Compare it to a more realistic class. Thief hits 6-7k back stab damage once if their invested in it and has a set up and must hit from back. Arc hits that 6-7k 3 times,that is not a wet noodle.

>

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Penguinman.1254" said:

> > > Yes you can still hit 5-8 k per section the problem is in a real pvp fight they can dodge or mitigate 2 of the 3 rotations, giving you a 5-8k hit where as for ranger for instance a full glass ranger can hit for 15-18k with maul and it can be used more in a 1v1 fight. i just feel like if there gonna nerf the damage it should fall off per rotation or revert it back to the old ark divider cause burst damage is so important.

> >

> > Cant compare to powercrept class like soulbeast when discussing balance. It has a insane burst at 1500+ range lol as well as melee. Compare it to a more realistic class. Thief hits 6-7k back stab damage once if their invested in it and has a set up and must hit from back. Arc hits that 6-7k 3 times,that is not a wet noodle.

>

> realistically, arc divider would be not wet noodle, if it can teleport on to target from far away

Really the tele is such a weak arguement lmao warrior has great mobility,damage and sustain compared to thief, not to mention run around invulnerable for 8 plus seconds, but oh gosh it cant tele. But yeah hitting 18k arcs so nerrfed lmao

> @"Penguinman.1254" said:

> Yes you can still hit 5-8 k per section the problem is in a real pvp fight they can dodge or mitigate 2 of the 3 rotations, giving you a 5-8k hit where as for ranger for instance a full glass ranger can hit for 15-18k with maul and it can be used more in a 1v1 fight. i just feel like if there gonna nerf the damage it should fall off per rotation or revert it back to the old ark divider cause burst damage is so important.

Cant compare to powercrept class like soulbeast when discussing balance. It has a insane burst at 1500+ range lol as well as melee. Compare it to a more realistic class. Thief hits 6-7k back stab damage once if their invested in it and has a set up and must hit from back. Arc hits that 6-7k 3 times,that is not a wet noodle.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Duckota.4769" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > @"Duckota.4769" said:

> > > > > > Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

> > > > >

> > > > > I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

> > > >

> > > > I love people who dont understand balance trying to call me out. They're literally nothing but decappers and +1s at best in pvp and that extends to wvw. If you get beaten by a thief 1v1 you got extremely outplayed.

> > >

> > > I'm not a good thief, far from it and I mostly like to use every single profession but, in a sudden fight in WvW I have no issue killing easily single foes. The stealth, mobility and, yes, burst help a lot due to the fact that you got the surprise effect, the time to plan your fight, weight your foe, the ability to close gap quickly, a decent burst and, if things goes south, you got the tools to retreat quickly.

> > >

> > > That said, saying that I outplay someone by doing this much would be extremly arrogant, it's more capitalizing on the strenght of the profession than outplaying anyone.

> >

> > Lol the necro main is a better thief than thief players as usual lmao. I played thief 4 yrs and I know I'm definitely not great at it. If thief tries 1v1 a competant holo,soulbeast,warrior/spellbreaker list goes on it will need to disengage or die unless the thief player severely outplayed those classes. U can run behind a scrapper or fb unloading on them indefinitely and they just out heal u. I'm sry but these days if ur easlily winning 1v1 with thief than ur either playing noobs,ur a thief master or ur not being honest. I use reaper alot in wvw and most thiefs are my dinner except the few that can kite. Players that have mained the class for years didnt choose the boring role of decapper and limit themselves to +1 engagements due to it high proficiency in 1v1 lol they know most classes are to much a risk to try 1v1 due to most classes being in favor of winning the fight and if u do manage to win a 1v1 it most likely took too long which is funny thief being a glassy burst spec. It's always great to hear though people that dont play thief often are great at 1v1 with them as always seems the case on the forums lmao

>

> Who said that I was a necro main? I said it, I use all professions, in fact I use 1 profession 1 day and the next day it will be another in an eternal cycle. There sure are professions that concern me more than other but if I had to choose 1 profession that I enjoy playing more than another it would be mesmer and not necromancer. And because I tend to enjoy mesmer gameplay more than the other professions, I don't comment on mesmers buff/nerf unless it truly break the gameplay of the profession (when I say mesmer, it's core mesmer or at most chrono, just for the 25% movement speed).

>

> Let's be honest, WvW is filled with average players and the "competant" players that you point out are rare if not inexistant most of the time. Thief isn't nearly as bad as you picture it and it can definitely hold it's own against those specialization you fear.

>

> NB.: Oh and stop trying to make this a PvP issue, this is a WvW thread where, again, the thief stealth is an incredibly useful tool for "sudden 1v1". Unless you are taken by surprise and 1 shoted in WvW, as a thief you can basically reset the fight whenever you want. And it's not even close to be difficult to do.

Lol sure.

Disapointed in seeing necro so low, my beloved reaper does well in wvw 1v1 as long as I dont get caught by a sneaky sic em burst,but if I can close gap bye bye,so very satisfying lol

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" I almost want to ask you to include a few more assumptions in your post which would clarify some things for people, but I'm not sure there's a good way to include these without being too wordy:

>

> 1. Victory in a 1v1 means the build is capable of causing the opponent to retreat indefinitely (like retreat to a safe zone, tower, etc. and out of combat), or outright killing them. This means a thief kiting you and maintaining a 1200 distance while coming back in every 10s or so for a burst has not yet lost, nor are they losing.

> 2. Going out of combat by itself does not equate to a loss, although if a player is repeatedly doing this, they can't get a kill or drive off the other roamer so it's most likely a loss.

> 3. Ability to contest a point doesn't really mean all that much in a spontaneous 1v1. Roamers will generally ignore contestable points and instead focus on going for the kill which is why mobility plays such a huge factor.

> 4. The power of a roaming class actually should be determined by those god-tier players of that class. This is because those players represent the highest potential of that class, and classes should be judged by what they're capable of, not by how hard it is to reach that skill level.

>

>

> All of these are opinion but I'd be happy to argue any "criteria" here from a practical standpoint.

Thief sb kite is 900 range not 1200 unless DE of course which is probably what u mean.

Ranger takes more skill to master and has some micro management but also has low skill floor to do very well.

Warrior is strait forward across all specs. Warrior and spellbreaker are the better of its elites as beserker only has its zerk burst. Ranger is a bit less strategic forward and is good in all modes,warrior is wanted in all modes to for banners. If ur doing conquest warrior or spellbreaker will have u succeeding very fast and is good in higher tiers. Ranger has insane burst for it having so much range and is a noob stomper in lower tears but in higher tiers u need to be pretty skilled with it as alot of players will know how to avoid ur ranged burst. In wvw u can get alot of kills with sic em cheese build and just pew pew lol.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Duckota.4769" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Duckota.4769" said:

> > > > Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

> > >

> > > I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

> >

> > I love people who dont understand balance trying to call me out. They're literally nothing but decappers and +1s at best in pvp and that extends to wvw. If you get beaten by a thief 1v1 you got extremely outplayed.

>

> I'm not a good thief, far from it and I mostly like to use every single profession but, in a sudden fight in WvW I have no issue killing easily single foes. The stealth, mobility and, yes, burst help a lot due to the fact that you got the surprise effect, the time to plan your fight, weight your foe, the ability to close gap quickly, a decent burst and, if things goes south, you got the tools to retreat quickly.

>

> That said, saying that I outplay someone by doing this much would be extremly arrogant, it's more capitalizing on the strenght of the profession than outplaying anyone.

Lol the necro main is a better thief than thief players as usual lmao. I played thief 4 yrs and I know I'm definitely not great at it. If thief tries 1v1 a competant holo,soulbeast,warrior/spellbreaker list goes on it will need to disengage or die unless the thief player severely outplayed those classes. U can run behind a scrapper or fb unloading on them indefinitely and they just out heal u. I'm sry but these days if ur easlily winning 1v1 with thief than ur either playing noobs,ur a thief master or ur not being honest. I use reaper alot in wvw and most thiefs are my dinner except the few that can kite. Players that have mained the class for years didnt choose the boring role of decapper and limit themselves to +1 engagements due to it high proficiency in 1v1 lol they know most classes are to much a risk to try 1v1 due to most classes being in favor of winning the fight and if u do manage to win a 1v1 it most likely took too long which is funny thief being a glassy burst spec. It's always great to hear though people that dont play thief often are great at 1v1 with them as always seems the case on the forums lmao

F1 skill should be somthing different than its co-specs. It was just the core f1 and now it's just a worse version of it. They coulda had f1 transform the staff into a guandau for a set duration complete with it's own set of kung fu esq brawler skills. Maybe not best idea but way more interactive etc than swipe.

They nerfed acro and stole some traits to make DD -lazy

Used core f1 skill-lazy

Changed f skill to a worse version of core f1-lazy

DD f1 coulda been somthing cool like the staff transforming into a guandau for a set duration with a full set of kung fu esq brawler skills. Atleast to somthing unique at least

DD previous steal as well as this swipe joke is about as lazy as nerfing a core traitline (acro) to make the new espec itself relevant. F skill coulda transformed the DD staff into a guandau with it's own set of brawler king fu esq skills that has a set duration or somthing. Instead of stealing from a core trait line to create a new espec and ontop just use the same f skill as core,until now which is just a worse version. I'm glad u think my way of thinking regarding balancing is wrong foste cuz if u think nerfing and stealing a trait from a core trait to make a new one is a good way of doing things than I'd rather u not agree lol

Revs burst definitely needed toned down as it was way too high. For the people thinking that revs burst damage was fine is it because of low sustain? Do you think all classes with low hp and sustain should have such high bursts? Cuz hearing from alot of revs that it seems like they think only rev fits this criteria. Maybe arena net shoulda buffed other areas so rev didnt have to rely on a op burst potential. I use rev in wvw and deleted people with revs burst far faster than I ever have on other burst classes when melee is concerned. Only issue in survivability I had was disengaging reliably if I needed to. In arenet fashion instead of fixing any root problems like why the rev rely'd so heavily on its op burst to function and buff other aspects of the class they just listen to the community and hear burst is to high so let's lower it they say and leave it at that.

In the last three months I haven't been one shot from stealth more than maybe once,I say once as I honestly cant remember the last time I have. With that said I've been otherwise engaged and stripped to 0 from a sic em ranger sometimes than I can count. There are far bigger bladder powercrept classes in this game to worry about compared to DE lmao the spec was gutted pretty hard.

I believe it is 40% merged or not merged is it not? Where are the tests and is it written anywhere officially?

It's pretty simple 40% strait damage modifier is to high. It should be dropped to 15 or 20% to be in line with other professions. 40% is fine on the pet though which is what it was intended for when It was created.

> @"foste.3098" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > Okay, a trade off. That's fair.

> >

> > Question is, what have [we] gotten out of it? Expected reply of 'unblockable!' but I'd repeat....what have we gotten out of it?

> The trade off is a 3rd dodge which is modified to ether be a leap finisher and deal damage with bound, a soft cc cleanse and mobility maneuver that reduces damage with dash, or whatever impaling lotus is suppose to be. That is the daredevil elite mechanic for which we give up steal for the objectively worse swipe.

Which we ultimately gave up out of acrobatics making that traitline worse to create DD. Core got a traitline nerf so DD could exist, that's more than enough of a trade off.

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> The amount of cognitive dissonance this discussion evokes is something.

>

> Person A's Comments - hmm that kinda makes sense.

> Person B's Counter - hmm so does that.

> Person A's Reply - makes sense too. ugh!

>

> Also:

> "Here are the facts."

> "Wrong. Here's the real truth."

>

> What to believe? O_o

>

> As to balancing Sic 'Em (and Ranger/Soulbeast in general), looking to history, we see two classes that were the frequent subject of complaint and which ultimately received repeated, significant, and some would say, bad, nerfs over a long period of time, leaving them with gutted trait lines, weapon choices, and build options, and greatly diminished presence throughout the ranks. These are thief and mesmer. In fact, it is hard to argue that the "people can't distinguish between what is OP and what is simply annoying" fallacy applies more aptly to any other classes.

>

> For the still-doing-well classes that have yet to see such treatment, they must either agree that what happened to thief and mesmer was good and thereby extend the same to themselves, or admit that the "balance by loudest qq" method that was applied to thief and mesmer was bad, and should be reverted to some extent. The alternative is hypocrisy.

>

> Personally, I think balance necessarily must be driven by informed understanding of the class and where it falls within the bigger picture, not by bias on either side of the debate. I don't think there is a good track record of such balance in the past, and I would rather not see it perpetuated onto more classes, even if "it would only be fair". Balance the classes/traits that need balancing the right way, and go back and fix things that were balanced the wrong way.

>

> I know I'm speaking in generalities but I'm limiting to that because I don't have the answers.

That's the thing, using thief as a example I'd love to see a vid of the dev that balances thief show off how well HIS DD does brawling other specs or how well he bursts etc on a core s/d build on other classes considering burst to sustain ratio of core on other classes. I'd bet they wouldn't fair very well lol. Seems like a lack of understanding of where the class actually sits vs other classes and more from a basic understanding of what theyve gathered from the community (mostly non thief players). This is the reason when forums are filled with a complaint about a skill or aspect of thief the balance team nerfs aspects that have little to do with the complaints leaving people scratching their heads. Another example of why when they do nerf a skill or aspect they do it in such a way that nerfs other aspects of the class that were already struggling with zero counter balance again leaving people scratching their heads. Man if a employee at my station preformed like this lmao

It's almost as if the balance team hasn't experienced any other games or mmo's that include pvp modes when u try and understand their thinking regarding balance decisions.

Like their traps they will never be updated nor fixed.

Warrior be a solid pick for sure