Core ranger is broken

[Yasai.3549]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

 

> Yeah they are a class mechanic...

> Do you want only 1 skill in Death Shroud? Or only switch one skill with an ele attunement at the time?

 

What's yur point?

Make Turrets and Minions Profession mechanics then, so Turret Engi and Necro MM can have utility skills too.

 

Necro MM : 3 weaponsets and no utilities.

Engi Turrets : 1 Weapon set, 5 toolbelt skills and no utilities

Core Ranger : 2 weapon sets, 5 utilities, 2 pets with higher personal stats and damage than multiple Minions or Turrets combined, each pet also has their own health and own set of skills.

 

Also Ranger Pet AI is also significantly better than Turrets and Minions AI.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Erzian.5218]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > > Except it isn't necro mains asking for ranger to be addressed, well known top players in EU say it's broken, you can see them saying it in Sindrener's and Boyce's stream. You can also see these 2 players saying that they don't want ANet to hammer it down to useless but that it needs a lot of adjustments, small in size but a lot of them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also not seeing them in WvW? Are you blind or do you just choo with a tag all the time? There are loads of rangers dotted around adding into small fights or worse still adding into fights at duel spots.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your wrong though, I'm a necro main and I defended ranger a lot, heck I've even defended mesmers.

> > > > >

> > > > > There are people out there who don't care what happens to other classes but some of us do care because we play multiple classes for fun. We aren't competitive like you guys, so our most important aspect is that a class is enjoyable, in fact, I will probably never be competitive ever.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > > > > Necros are preparing for the huge nerfs that awaits them with the next patch.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, birds and cats will be nerfed and it is also fine, but also complaining about the rest of the Ranger profession at this point is either a L2P problem or there are many trolls who want to see Ranger also out of the competitive scenario after Druid and Slb.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are ready to be deleted from SPVP you mean yeah its going to happen, maybe even WVW, and back to necro mains complaining about being free kills and always over nerfed.

> > > >

> > > > I'm wrong? How am I wrong? I said top players and streamers like Sindrener and Boyce are also asking for ranger to be addressed and they do say how broken it is on their streams. Someone else made the presupposition that it was necromancers asking for nerfs, coincidentally the guy mentioned below, direct your comment at him.

> > > >

> > > > As for fun, it's fun for 1 person to never have to sweat in a fight, have all chances to win and not have to think too hard about what the enemy is doing, not so fun for the person on the other end who can't mess up once or they lose automatically.

> > > >

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" I literally named them and the rest of what you said had no relevance to what I stated, they're saying it's overtuned in both damage and survivability and it needs toning down. They and I also don't want to see it Chrono'd just a lot of little changes all over to bring it down.

> > > >

> > > > @"Tazer.2157" Agreed about greatsword, don't agree about pet death CD, that would be very punishing especially against condi builds that murder pets super easy. Ranger needs small adjustments across the board, maybe 1 or 2 major hits on damage mods but it's going to be a slow process or it'll be chrono'd.

> > >

> > > Not trying to argue with you, serious question:

> > >

> > > Are these streamers saying that Core Ranger is OP or that it is broken as in, something is not working right?

> > >

> > > Even I've been pointing in threads that something is up with pet damage. They are hitting harder than the coefficients say they should. And no, I don't mean marks mods and all that. I'm talking even with no buffs or marks mods active, the pets seem to be ignoring toughness or possibly a portion of their damage equation is hitting as life steal, bypassing toughness/prot values. I first noticed it while 1v1ing @"Bossun.2046" and my pets even with no boons or marks mods on, were always hitting harder than the actual Ranger's Rapid Fires & Mauls, which according to coefficient UI display, should definitely be hitting harder than the pets.

> > >

> > > So in my finely worded description of the issue, I would say that: "Core Ranger/Soulbeast is not OP, but something is definitely wonky with pet damage and needs to be looked into."

> >

> > idk I just hit different golems with both pet (owl and tiger) and maul and there doesn't seem to be a bug with pet damage and armor interaction.

>

> You need to be attacking players who are stacking toughness and have prot buff on. The golems only have "armor" value.

>

> You'll see what I mean when you start attacking dudes wearing demolisher/resistance with prot buffs. Something is off with it. In that case scenario, I see my no boon no marks mod Mauls landing 10% of their health bar, and then some pet with no boons no marks mods chunking 25% of their health bar in one go. And yes, both the Maul and the pet F2 are both critical hitting.

>

> It doesn't seem to happen all of the time. It seems to be something odd that when it happens, it stays active until you change maps or end a game. I was also wondering if what may be happening is that the marks mods aren't turning off on the pet when they are supposed to. what I mean is, say MOC was on the pet and after the pet attacked, the MOC should deactivate, and although the UI indicates that it did, maybe the MOC +50% is stuck in the pet's equation somehow and does not deactive. That would certainly explain what I have been seeing from time to time, as well as some of these seriously inflated pet damage numbers that people have been posting in screen shots lately. Like Birds dealing 5k on every auto attack. If you go in and test on a golem, you'll see that achieving those kind of numbers on a Ranger pet Is virtually impossible to do, yet we are seeing more and more screen shots of this stuff happening during random bell curve or bellow games, where I know for a fact that there isn't enough coordinated pet buffing going on to be able to achieve numbers like that.

 

owl hits for 3k (both crits) and tiger pounce hits for 2.3k (crit) vs 3.6k armor. Seems fine as it not bugged. Pretty sure the high numbers you often get are related to all the vuln that rangers applies in fights as well as the damage modifers. pet swap + maul are 15 vuln when the pet hits. and tiger pounce has a 50% as well as a 25% modifier when you f2 immediately after swap. Can't really calculate how much damage hits should do as Idk the weapon strength that is used for pets.

[Tazer.2157]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

 

> A top 10 player with God tier pet management can have its pets be killed by silver tier players on burn guard, sage weaver, sage brand, etc... and you're suggesting that a top 10 player should have the pet go on CD for 5 minutes because someone decided to drop a burn on node?

>

> Pets cannot be condi cleared... cant dodge... and pets of concern have 16k hp with 1.6k armor (and that's when traited)...

>

> This is absolutely bonkers of a suggestion.

 

Yes. I want it both ways. The pet should be able to do damage and you shouldn't have your pet be able to run through a condi bomb on node. That is why you will want to choose a pet wisely instead of a damn smokescale/deer or currently the tiger all the time. What about the bear that condi cleanses? What about the fox that heals? What about the bristleback with its ranged damage? Increase the heal the pet gives, improve the condi cleanses, make the pet a part of the class that provides a high risk, high reward situation. I am not talking about balance here, because if you haven't noticed, balance will never ever be achieved and adjusting a class based solely on balance is bad for game design. I will mention the soulbeast again. The supposed "tradeoff" is a good example of neutering a class based solely on balance. What I am talking about is making the ranger a relevant pet class. If all you want is balance, pretty soon all classes will have 1 auto attack skill and nothing else differentiating them. I could care less what top pvp players think, they did not pull me into Gw2. It is the game devs with good design that pulled me into this game and lately all the changes to the game seems to be focused on balance and that is not a good direction for the game to be heading in.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>

> > Yeah they are a class mechanic...

> > Do you want only 1 skill in Death Shroud? Or only switch one skill with an ele attunement at the time?

>

> What's yur point?

> Make Turrets and Minions Profession mechanics then, so Turret Engi and Necro MM can have utility skills too.

>

> Necro MM : 3 weaponsets and no utilities.

 

What? The minions ARE the utility skills. Upon that, the minions after summoned, have 2nd skills that the minions themselves can use. Actually when I think about it, that actually works pretty much the same as ranger pet f2 skills. It's almost as if the Necro had 4 pets, or 6 pets if he is using minion heal utility.

 

> Engi Turrets : 1 Weapon set, 5 toolbelt skills and no utilities

 

What? The turrets ARE the utility skills. Upon that, the turrets after summoned, have 2nd skills that the turrets themselves can use.

 

> Core Ranger : 2 weapon sets, 5 utilities, 2 pets with higher personal stats and damage than multiple Minions or Turrets combined, each pet also has their own health and own set of skills.

 

What lol?

 

> Also Ranger Pet AI is also significantly better than Turrets and Minions AI.

 

It all works exactly the same my dude. Same pathing, same projectile trajectory, the same.

 

What about Mirages with Infinite Horizon? Is Ranger Pet AI play clearly superior to the Mirage's AI play?

 

 

[Erzian.5218]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> What top players? Outside the far node 1vs1, the class has zero presence : offers close to zero supports and can't really handle more than 2 badly played classes at the same time, the class has been nerfed to the ground because it doesn't really offer anything outside their 1v1 niche , despite their claims....**they don't use rangers in their top teams**...let's ask @"bluri.2653" why there is no ranger in his team if it's so powerful.

>

 

 

2 rangers vs sind + his duo queue partner and some random mesmer. He quite clearly expresses what he thinks about ranger and even interrupts the gossip for it :D Also, holo fills the same role as ranger and does it better (and also needs a nerf) but ranger is A LOT more forgiving/face roll, thus the better choice for the majority of players.

[Avatar.3568]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > > Except it isn't necro mains asking for ranger to be addressed, well known top players in EU say it's broken, you can see them saying it in Sindrener's and Boyce's stream. You can also see these 2 players saying that they don't want ANet to hammer it down to useless but that it needs a lot of adjustments, small in size but a lot of them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also not seeing them in WvW? Are you blind or do you just choo with a tag all the time? There are loads of rangers dotted around adding into small fights or worse still adding into fights at duel spots.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your wrong though, I'm a necro main and I defended ranger a lot, heck I've even defended mesmers.

> > > > >

> > > > > There are people out there who don't care what happens to other classes but some of us do care because we play multiple classes for fun. We aren't competitive like you guys, so our most important aspect is that a class is enjoyable, in fact, I will probably never be competitive ever.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > > > > Necros are preparing for the huge nerfs that awaits them with the next patch.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, birds and cats will be nerfed and it is also fine, but also complaining about the rest of the Ranger profession at this point is either a L2P problem or there are many trolls who want to see Ranger also out of the competitive scenario after Druid and Slb.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are ready to be deleted from SPVP you mean yeah its going to happen, maybe even WVW, and back to necro mains complaining about being free kills and always over nerfed.

> > > >

> > > > I'm wrong? How am I wrong? I said top players and streamers like Sindrener and Boyce are also asking for ranger to be addressed and they do say how broken it is on their streams. Someone else made the presupposition that it was necromancers asking for nerfs, coincidentally the guy mentioned below, direct your comment at him.

> > > >

> > > > As for fun, it's fun for 1 person to never have to sweat in a fight, have all chances to win and not have to think too hard about what the enemy is doing, not so fun for the person on the other end who can't mess up once or they lose automatically.

> > > >

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" I literally named them and the rest of what you said had no relevance to what I stated, they're saying it's overtuned in both damage and survivability and it needs toning down. They and I also don't want to see it Chrono'd just a lot of little changes all over to bring it down.

> > > >

> > > > @"Tazer.2157" Agreed about greatsword, don't agree about pet death CD, that would be very punishing especially against condi builds that murder pets super easy. Ranger needs small adjustments across the board, maybe 1 or 2 major hits on damage mods but it's going to be a slow process or it'll be chrono'd.

> > >

> > > Not trying to argue with you, serious question:

> > >

> > > Are these streamers saying that Core Ranger is OP or that it is broken as in, something is not working right?

> > >

> > > Even I've been pointing in threads that something is up with pet damage. They are hitting harder than the coefficients say they should. And no, I don't mean marks mods and all that. I'm talking even with no buffs or marks mods active, the pets seem to be ignoring toughness or possibly a portion of their damage equation is hitting as life steal, bypassing toughness/prot values. I first noticed it while 1v1ing @"Bossun.2046" and my pets even with no boons or marks mods on, were always hitting harder than the actual Ranger's Rapid Fires & Mauls, which according to coefficient UI display, should definitely be hitting harder than the pets.

> > >

> > > So in my finely worded description of the issue, I would say that: "Core Ranger/Soulbeast is not OP, but something is definitely wonky with pet damage and needs to be looked into."

> >

> > idk I just hit different golems with both pet (owl and tiger) and maul and there doesn't seem to be a bug with pet damage and armor interaction.

>

> You need to be attacking players who are stacking toughness and have prot buff on. The golems only have "armor" value.

>

> You'll see what I mean when you start attacking dudes wearing demolisher/resistance with prot buffs. Something is off with it. In that case scenario, I see my no boon no marks mod Mauls landing 10% of their health bar, and then some pet with no boons no marks mods chunking 25% of their health bar in one go. And yes, both the Maul and the pet F2 are both critical hitting.

>

> It doesn't seem to happen all of the time. It seems to be something odd that when it happens, it stays active until you change maps or end a game. I was also wondering if what may be happening is that the marks mods aren't turning off on the pet when they are supposed to. what I mean is, say MOC was on the pet and after the pet attacked, the MOC should deactivate, and although the UI indicates that it did, maybe the MOC +50% is stuck in the pet's equation somehow and does not deactive. That would certainly explain what I have been seeing from time to time, as well as some of these seriously inflated pet damage numbers that people have been posting in screen shots lately. Like Birds dealing 5k on every auto attack. If you go in and test on a golem, you'll see that achieving those kind of numbers on a Ranger pet Is virtually impossible to do, yet we are seeing more and more screen shots of this stuff happening during random bell curve or bellow games, where I know for a fact that there isn't enough coordinated pet buffing going on to be able to achieve numbers like that.

 

It's weird yes, but toughness is counting for pets, the 4-5k krits komming from the attack that deals 1 time dmg, the f2 krits against light people up to 6k each(Most one high and one medium 2-4k:, idk if the modifiers are that bad or first strike and attack of opportunity are making them so out of control

 

But on higher thougness I deal way less dmg (chevalier or knight)

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > What top players? Outside the far node 1vs1, the class has zero presence : offers close to zero supports and can't really handle more than 2 badly played classes at the same time, the class has been nerfed to the ground because it doesn't really offer anything outside their 1v1 niche , despite their claims....**they don't use rangers in their top teams**...let's ask @"bluri.2653" why there is no ranger in his team if it's so powerful.

> >

>

>

>

> 2 rangers vs sind + his duo queue partner and some random mesmer. He quite clearly expresses what he thinks about ranger and even interrupts the gossip for it :D Also, holo fills the same role as ranger and does it better (and also needs a nerf) but ranger is A LOT more forgiving/face roll, thus the better choice for the majority of players.

 

People are just annoyed by the longbow/pet gameplay....they consider it **unfair** to fight against but that again is the nature of MMOs...The whole class represent the typical archer archetypes as followed in other MMO : a very adaptable adventurer based on ranged combat, high survival rate and combat abilities.

 

Ranger in GW2 is the same as in all other MMOs, a hard to kill duellist class....people should not expect any less when facing a ranger, it's the same in WoW ...Aion...FF online...ESO...Neverwinter....B&S...any MMO will have save version of the ranger class : a ranged duellist which is hard to kill, that's what people who play the class want and nobody can change it

 

I want to play a hard to kill ranged duellist, not immortal or invincible ofc but still hard to kill, feel free to balance around the idea but expecting classes to play differently based on "fairness"....it's not right

 

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > Except it isn't necro mains asking for ranger to be addressed, well known top players in EU say it's broken, you can see them saying it in Sindrener's and Boyce's stream. You can also see these 2 players saying that they don't want ANet to hammer it down to useless but that it needs a lot of adjustments, small in size but a lot of them.

> > >

> > > Also not seeing them in WvW? Are you blind or do you just choo with a tag all the time? There are loads of rangers dotted around adding into small fights or worse still adding into fights at duel spots.

> >

> > Your wrong though, I'm a necro main and I defended ranger a lot, heck I've even defended mesmers.

> >

> > There are people out there who don't care what happens to other classes but some of us do care because we play multiple classes for fun. We aren't competitive like you guys, so our most important aspect is that a class is enjoyable, in fact, I will probably never be competitive ever.

> >

> > > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > Necros are preparing for the huge nerfs that awaits them with the next patch.

> > >

> > > Yes, birds and cats will be nerfed and it is also fine, but also complaining about the rest of the Ranger profession at this point is either a L2P problem or there are many trolls who want to see Ranger also out of the competitive scenario after Druid and Slb.

> >

> > We are ready to be deleted from SPVP you mean yeah its going to happen, maybe even WVW, and back to necro mains complaining about being free kills and always over nerfed.

>

> I'm wrong? How am I wrong? I said top players and streamers like Sindrener and Boyce are also asking for ranger to be addressed and they do say how broken it is on their streams. Someone else made the presupposition that it was necromancers asking for nerfs, coincidentally the guy mentioned below, direct your comment at him.

>

> As for fun, it's fun for 1 person to never have to sweat in a fight, have all chances to win and not have to think too hard about what the enemy is doing, not so fun for the person on the other end who can't mess up once or they lose automatically.

>

> @"Arheundel.6451" I literally named them and the rest of what you said had no relevance to what I stated, they're saying it's overtuned in both damage and survivability and it needs toning down. They and I also don't want to see it Chrono'd just a lot of little changes all over to bring it down.

>

> @"Tazer.2157" Agreed about greatsword, don't agree about pet death CD, that would be very punishing especially against condi builds that murder pets super easy. Ranger needs small adjustments across the board, maybe 1 or 2 major hits on damage mods but it's going to be a slow process or it'll be chrono'd.

 

Not claiming that some pets don't hit hard..I am just saying that ranger is not this immense powerhouse that people here are claiming, I know many will call me biased but...while using a core ele, all I need to do to put a ranger on his back foot is to focus the pets first of all, while avoiding the attempts of ranger to set up a maul combo, I survive by kiting and knowing ranger CD and main tactics : a ranger using bird/tiger loses access to smokescale which makes maul combos that much easier to land, in that instance dealing with a ranger using two glassy pets becomes that much easier.

 

1- Focusing on the ranger is always the wrong approach when dealing with a core/druid

2- There are only couple of ways a ranger can set up a burst for each build

3- LoS kills most of ranger spike

 

The class is pretty dead in pvp/wvw with only core and some pewpew soulbeast variants left alive, the class may need nerfs in some areas but...other areas require changes/buffs

[Eurantien.4632]

What is druid supposed to do when pet damage gets nerfed again?

[apharma.3741]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > Except it isn't necro mains asking for ranger to be addressed, well known top players in EU say it's broken, you can see them saying it in Sindrener's and Boyce's stream. You can also see these 2 players saying that they don't want ANet to hammer it down to useless but that it needs a lot of adjustments, small in size but a lot of them.

> > > >

> > > > Also not seeing them in WvW? Are you blind or do you just choo with a tag all the time? There are loads of rangers dotted around adding into small fights or worse still adding into fights at duel spots.

> > >

> > > Your wrong though, I'm a necro main and I defended ranger a lot, heck I've even defended mesmers.

> > >

> > > There are people out there who don't care what happens to other classes but some of us do care because we play multiple classes for fun. We aren't competitive like you guys, so our most important aspect is that a class is enjoyable, in fact, I will probably never be competitive ever.

> > >

> > > > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > > Necros are preparing for the huge nerfs that awaits them with the next patch.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, birds and cats will be nerfed and it is also fine, but also complaining about the rest of the Ranger profession at this point is either a L2P problem or there are many trolls who want to see Ranger also out of the competitive scenario after Druid and Slb.

> > >

> > > We are ready to be deleted from SPVP you mean yeah its going to happen, maybe even WVW, and back to necro mains complaining about being free kills and always over nerfed.

> >

> > I'm wrong? How am I wrong? I said top players and streamers like Sindrener and Boyce are also asking for ranger to be addressed and they do say how broken it is on their streams. Someone else made the presupposition that it was necromancers asking for nerfs, coincidentally the guy mentioned below, direct your comment at him.

> >

> > As for fun, it's fun for 1 person to never have to sweat in a fight, have all chances to win and not have to think too hard about what the enemy is doing, not so fun for the person on the other end who can't mess up once or they lose automatically.

> >

> > @"Arheundel.6451" I literally named them and the rest of what you said had no relevance to what I stated, they're saying it's overtuned in both damage and survivability and it needs toning down. They and I also don't want to see it Chrono'd just a lot of little changes all over to bring it down.

> >

> > @"Tazer.2157" Agreed about greatsword, don't agree about pet death CD, that would be very punishing especially against condi builds that murder pets super easy. Ranger needs small adjustments across the board, maybe 1 or 2 major hits on damage mods but it's going to be a slow process or it'll be chrono'd.

>

> Not trying to argue with you, serious question:

>

> Are these streamers saying that Core Ranger is OP or that it is broken as in, something is not working right?

>

> Even I've been pointing in threads that something is up with pet damage. They are hitting harder than the coefficients say they should. And no, I don't mean marks mods and all that. I'm talking even with no buffs or marks mods active, the pets seem to be ignoring toughness or possibly a portion of their damage equation is hitting as life steal, bypassing toughness/prot values. I first noticed it while 1v1ing @"Bossun.2046" and my pets even with no boons or marks mods on, were always hitting harder than the actual Ranger's Rapid Fires & Mauls, which according to coefficient UI display, should definitely be hitting harder than the pets.

>

> So in my finely worded description of the issue, I would say that: "Core Ranger/Soulbeast is not OP, but something is definitely wonky with pet damage and needs to be looked into."

 

Ranger enjoys top tier survivability (plethora of cleanses, great self healing, good damage reduction) against most builds with good sustained damage (some good might building and quickness) and good, low cool down burst. Basically the problem is class wide that it has too much within easy grasp especially with wilderness survival having such a great synergy with survival skills.

 

Rather than Chrono the class, the best solution is to touch it in many places, examples: reduce troll ungent healing to be more in line with other classes, increase maul cool down to 8-10s but leave the damage, add an ICD to child of earth like every other on heal trait has, clip some of it's boon duration by 1s and moment of clarity dropped to 25%.

 

I can feel you and many other "ranger mains" reaching for the keys and wanting to say "No don't touch these it blah blah blah" what you guys don't realise is the touch will happen and if you're lucky it will be a light touch to a lot of the over bearing aspects like above, if you're unlucky it will get dumpstered, set on fire then put behind the shed to keep chrono company which you won't like at all. Pick your poison.

 

Edit: Also yes it's obvious look at pet damage within the confines of the new power level.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"God.2708" said:

> then after I do that and they kite for 10s they have another 25k life force I have to burn through from blighter's boon whilst my burst combo still isn't off CD.

A reaper is kiting your ranger? And he runs blighter's boon (this trait is dead for 2 years now)?

 

Incredible...

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > What top players? Outside the far node 1vs1, the class has zero presence : offers close to zero supports and can't really handle more than 2 badly played classes at the same time, the class has been nerfed to the ground because it doesn't really offer anything outside their 1v1 niche , despite their claims....**they don't use rangers in their top teams**...let's ask @"bluri.2653" why there is no ranger in his team if it's so powerful.

> >

>

>

>

> 2 rangers vs sind + his duo queue partner and some random mesmer. He quite clearly expresses what he thinks about ranger and even interrupts the gossip for it :D Also, holo fills the same role as ranger and does it better (and also needs a nerf) but ranger is A LOT more forgiving/face roll, thus the better choice for the majority of players.

 

In that clip, Sindrener:

 

1. Didn't pay attention to the Smokescale knockdown.

2. Doesn't react quick enough to the Hilt Bash -> Maul

3. Says, "Let's see if he swaps to longbow." Instead of, "Let's see what weapon _and_ pet he swaps to."

4. Dodges directly in front of the Tiger, completely ignores the F2 animation and dodges _after_ getting hit by Furious Pounce rather than before.

5. Tunnel visions the ranger while he's low health and the pet is chasing after him instead of moving up and down vertical terrain to make the pet path around obstacles.

 

I don't care how he feels about ranger in that clip. He played that matchup horribly and has no reason to complain after misplaying that many times in a row.

[Eurantien.4632]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > What top players? Outside the far node 1vs1, the class has zero presence : offers close to zero supports and can't really handle more than 2 badly played classes at the same time, the class has been nerfed to the ground because it doesn't really offer anything outside their 1v1 niche , despite their claims....**they don't use rangers in their top teams**...let's ask @"bluri.2653" why there is no ranger in his team if it's so powerful.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > 2 rangers vs sind + his duo queue partner and some random mesmer. He quite clearly expresses what he thinks about ranger and even interrupts the gossip for it :D Also, holo fills the same role as ranger and does it better (and also needs a nerf) but ranger is A LOT more forgiving/face roll, thus the better choice for the majority of players.

>

> In that clip, Sindrener:

>

> 1. Didn't pay attention to the Smokescale knockdown.

> 2. Doesn't react quick enough to the Hilt Bash -> Maul

> 3. Says, "Let's see if he swaps to longbow." Instead of, "Let's see what weapon _and_ pet he swaps to."

> 4. Dodges directly in front of the Tiger, completely ignores the F2 animation and dodges _after_ getting hit by Furious Pounce rather than before.

> 5. Tunnel visions the ranger while he's low health and the pet is chasing after him instead of moving up and down vertical terrain to make the pet path around obstacles.

>

> I don't care how he feels about ranger in that clip. He played that matchup horribly and has no reason to complain after misplaying that many times in a row.

 

This is actually hilarious. Imagine dying to a pet in a 3v1. Just a misplay on his part and he deserved that.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said:

> > > > Greetings Anet, you promised consistent fixes if something is clearly broken and Ranger/pets are currently busted beyond imagining not to mention rangers sustain with extremelly low cooldowns on greatsword and there almost innate ability to be halfway across the map if things get rough.

> > > >

> > > > I can literally see no drawback in playing ranger atm.

> > > >

> > > > Even the high end well skilled ranger players acknoledge that the class is indeed very broken currently.

> > > >

> > > > You promised fixes if there was a clear and obvious problem, Ranger and Necro are both busted, so the ball is in you're court.

> > > >

> > > > You have not delivered thus far, lets hope our faith in you was not misplaced.

> > >

> > > Drawbacks:

> > >

> > > 1. Birds/Tigers actually explode when focused at all. And then 50% of the Core Ranger's damage output is on a 60s CD.

> > > 2. Can't peel/disengage for #$%^. When 2v1 focused by competent players at all, it dies. <- This is the first big reason why Core Ranger is not viable for tournament, because it lacks the disengage play required to stay alive long enough to do anything at all, in higher tiered play environments.

> > >

> > > The 2nd reason why Core Ranger or Soulbeast is not viable for tournament, is because the majority of the bell curve or bellow community always gets it nerfed from being able to do so. Let me explain something to you very carefully. Ok so all of the objects that have been placed in the pvp maps, those were meant to be used for LOS and positioning. These are mechanics designed into the game that were meant to be used against Longbows and Rifles and Shortbows and all ranged projectiles. However, bell curve and bellow players ignore this. They are the types of players who walk into the middle of Eternal Coliseum mid and stand there on the node while a Deadeye is shooting at them, and completely ignore the 4 pillars and the boxes around the node. When they die to the DE or a Ranger, they come into this forum and complain about how OP high the damage is. Higher tiered players above the bell curve wouldn't let that happen. 1 - They have good map awareness and would position themselves with an object in between themselves and the ranged attacker before he even arrives to the team fight. 2 - If they were caught unaware which does happen sometimes, they quickly react an begin to LOS.

> > >

> > > So what we are really talking about here, is the point where players rise from ignoring LOS mechanics, to utilizing them. Rangers are very OP in environments where players ignore LOS mechanics, and this is where all of the complaining is coming from. However, in environments where players do utilize these mechanics often and know how to exploit them, the effectiveness of Ranger drops through the floor to where it is no longer viable amongst high tiered play. <- This is because the large bulk of the community complains about how high powered ranged is, as they choose to ignore built in game mechanics that were meant to be used to deal with the ranged. And then Arenanet listens to this bulk of QQ, and Ranger gets balanced around that, instead of around high tiered players who actually utilize all the mechanics granted to them.

> > >

> > > Ranger is a weird class due to the difference in effectiveness between bellow bell curve and above bell curve for the above reasons ^ Ranger is very strong against bad players, but Ranger is just bad against good players. Unfortunately for all of the reasons described, Arenanet struggles to find a cherry sweet spot to settle the balance so that it works for everyone.

> > >

> > > Pretty much sums it up.

> >

> >

> > Rangers have plenty of disengage? Half the time it feels like most of my team is chasing some ranger across the map. I mean sure it isn’t as good as a thief, but it has plenty of disengage. Soulbeast especially if you run a bird. Obviously it isn’t as good as thief or some of the warrior builds but it’s still more than enough. Even more than Mesmer right now unless the mes is running portal, which is just a waste in solo queue.

> >

>

> That is misinformed. An example of when the community takes 2 or 3 different build structures that a class can run, and then in their mind they cram it all together and believe that there is this one build that is doing everything.

>

> 1. Core Ranger gets only this for disengage - Greatsword #3 Swoop - Longbow #3 stealth - And then super speed on Quick Zephyr if you want to count that. No one wastes time with Smokescale field stealthing on Core Ranger because there isn't enough leap/blasts on Core to make it effective. In no way does Core Ranger have anywhere near the disengage factor as: Warrior/Spellbreaker with multiple movement skills and ability to ignore immobilization - No where even near the disengage as any Thief build - Doesn't even compare to the disengage of Soulbeast - Dude what? Core Ranger has no where even NEAR the stealth & disengage factor of a Mesmer/Mirage, not even close. You're talking ground target teleports, stealth skills that don't require hitting a target to use, and in some cases super speed on just about every utility used. As much as anti-ranger advocates would want to argue this, the Core Ranger's disengage factor is more on par with a Reaper honestly.

> 2. Soulbeast is where there is disengage factor. And no, it isn't coming from bird swoop. The swoop was nerfed into a much higher CD than it was before. 25s cool down non traited, 18s with trait, that's terrible in merge for the lack of other utility on the bird. Soulbeasts aren't aiming at big bird autos. They are aiming for utility in merge play. If a Soulbeast has great disengage, it is using Rock Gazelle F2, which is an equal distance traversed to swoop "1200 range" and on only a 12s CD. The Gazelle also offers CC, Worldy Impact, and an F1 skill that hits hard & fast easy to land. Regardless, the Soulbeast can GS3Swoop into Gazelle or Bird F2 1200 range into LB3 stealth into Smokescale field 2x leaps & blast from Clarion = actual stealth uptime worth using = real disengage factor, enough to shake things like Heralds & DP Thieves & Mesmers. However, the Soulbeast cannot stay and brawl in the same way that a Core Ranger can in 1v1s because the Soulbeast has to run primarily DPS traits/utilities. It can't take hits like Core Ranger to be able to stand on a node. The Soulbeast either kills fast or gets killed fast or must run. Only rarely does it have opportune moments to stay in one place for very long to brawl, because it straight loses to other metas where the players are of same skill, and it gets focused immediately when other players see they have an opportunity to attack a DPS spec. Even if the Soulbeast is of high skill factor, to be able to survive he'll be kiting off node and losing that node just as quickly as he took it.

>

> So understand that there are two very different specs being ran here, with two very different roles:

>

> * Core Ranger - It's tanky. It's good in 1v1 side node fights where pets have more realistic survivability. Terrible in team fights where AoE DPS is being tossed all over because pets explode too fast to be utilized. Good in solo queue at bell curve or bellow. Bad in high tiers because people don't fall for pet gimmicks and coordinated DPS output is way way way too high for pet sustain to remain practical, or even the Core Ranger's limited ability to kite for that matter. This build is just a gimmick that works well in solo for side nodding against around bell curve opponent teams who haven't the coordination to know how to deal with it. Rather than +ing against it, players often don't communicate and then they begin trying to ignore it rather than kill it. This has always been the case with strong side node presence in yolo queue, Core Ranger is no different other than the psychological effect that the pet makes people feel like they are being 2v1'd.

> * Soulbeast - Great mobility/disengage, 2nd only to Thief or a Herald that is chasing. Still excellent DPS + potential, though most of it is single strike oriented. It's just as bad as Core Ranger in team fights for different reasons. It can side node in 1v1 if the Soulbeast player is good and knows what he's doing, however it is mandatory to play primarily off node against most of the dominant bruiser classes including Core Rangers, because it cannot afford to take hits. So the Soulbeast is not a primary node presence, but rather something more akin to a DP Thief with a longbow.

>

> Where a Core Ranger could hold a node against anything 1v1 but die when he gets 2v1'd, the opposite takes effect for Soulbeast. The Soulbeast can't hold a node for @#$% but it can run and survive 2v1s. Core Ranger is a Side Node duelist. Soulbeast is a DPS +.

>

> They aren't the same thing, they don't do the same things, they aren't the same build.

>

> @"cptaylor.2670 " Sorry, this wasn't all aimed at you. Just needed to get this off my chest in light off all this bellow the bell curve amalgamated Ranger complaint lately. People can complain about and make w/e suggestions they want as far as I'm concerned. I just want to see them doing it with accurate understanding.

>

 

Excellent summary.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

weird, the same build in wvw the pets dont do no where near this dmg, even on zerker people (sure they hurt but not 5k autos lol)

[Shagie.7612]

I wonder if people would be angry about any of the various beastmaster builds that existed in GW1.

Pets in that game were simply autoattack bots and the ranger controlled all the active abilities.

I suspect so, if only because of a change in attitude and expectations for a video game from then and now.

 

I fully understand and support nerfing passive pet damage (and bird actives and other untelegraphed stuff), but I can't really help but wonder what people consider to be "different" about an activated skill like Tiger's leap. It's highly telegraphed, controlled by the player, and on an extremely squishy pet.

 

The only thing different about it is the direction from which it comes from.

 

Also, Sind and his chat are absolutely hilarious and regularly extremely tilted about rangers to the point where they throw together everything ranger has available into one build that doesn't actually exist. Not to mention really weird claims about it having the most stealth uptime and better map mobility than thief, stuff like that.

 

Like I get it, ranger's annoying, there's tons to be mad about with it and tons to be mad about with thief, but dudes keep pullin things out of thin air and it's so far off reality that it doesn't mean anything.

 

 

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> What is druid supposed to do when pet damage gets nerfed again?

 

?? save the druids plz. In fact let’s make Druid viable again

[Brujeria.7536]

Yeah, the pets need a damage nerf, this completly slipped trough.

 

Also please, for the love of god, remove the random CC / knockdowns some pets have. Its totally fine if its a comanded skill that does CC, but random CC on an AI Pet is just so unfun and wrong on many levels. There is a good reason we dont have % chance evade or miss in this game. Its like playing the lottery.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> Yeah, the pets need a damage nerf, this completly slipped trough.

>

> Also please, for the love of god, remove the random CC / knockdowns some pets have. Its totally fine if its a comanded skill that does CC, but random CC on an AI Pet is just so unfun and wrong on many levels. There is a good reason we dont have % chance evade or miss in this game. Its like playing the lottery.

 

There is no random CC. The pets use it as the first or second attack after switching and on cooldown afterwards. Most of them have also an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. And pets miss around 80% of their attacks anyway if you keep moving...

If you get constantly CCed by passive pet skills it's a player problem, not the game.

[Bast.7253]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> > Yeah, the pets need a damage nerf, this completly slipped trough.

> >

> > Also please, for the love of god, remove the random CC / knockdowns some pets have. Its totally fine if its a comanded skill that does CC, but random CC on an AI Pet is just so unfun and wrong on many levels. There is a good reason we dont have % chance evade or miss in this game. Its like playing the lottery.

>

> There is no random CC. The pets use it as the first or second attack after switching and on cooldown afterwards. Most of them have also an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. And pets miss around 80% of their attacks anyway if you keep moving...

> If you get constantly CCed by passive pet skills it's a player problem, not the game.

 

“An obvious animation” Who has time to look at pet animations when you’re busy watching the ranger and trying to dodge a knock back, maul, stun, or interrupt their heals?

 

I guess that works if you’re playing something that can just absorb constant damage and save dodges. But it isn’t realistic. To me all the tiger animations look the same. I think one has a charge up but it’s near impossible to keep track of the animations if you’re on something that isn’t bunker or that doesn’t have excess dodges.

[Brujeria.7536]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> > > Yeah, the pets need a damage nerf, this completly slipped trough.

> > >

> > > Also please, for the love of god, remove the random CC / knockdowns some pets have. Its totally fine if its a comanded skill that does CC, but random CC on an AI Pet is just so unfun and wrong on many levels. There is a good reason we dont have % chance evade or miss in this game. Its like playing the lottery.

> >

> > There is no random CC. The pets use it as the first or second attack after switching and on cooldown afterwards. Most of them have also an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. And pets miss around 80% of their attacks anyway if you keep moving...

> > If you get constantly CCed by passive pet skills it's a player problem, not the game.

>

> “An obvious animation” Who has time to look at pet animations when you’re busy watching the ranger and trying to dodge a knock back, maul, stun, or interrupt their heals?

>

> I guess that works if you’re playing something that can just absorb constant damage and save dodges. But it isn’t realistic. To me all the tiger animations look the same. I think one has a charge up but it’s near impossible to keep track of the animations if you’re on something that isn’t bunker or that doesn’t have excess dodges.

 

Exactly this. The animations are barely noticeable, the pet swap animations are clunky as well as the pet movement. When a ranger swaps pet its completly random animation wise.

 

Also random CC on pets - and they are random as there is no distinct call or player choice as to when they are executed (even the ranger does not see its cooldown) - is always terrible.

[Eurantien.4632]

Core ranger has 2 issues.

 

1. Pets do too much damage because Core can afford to take Marskmanship and buff the pets for single hits and also take Beastmastery which also significantly boosts pet stats for damage.

Opinion: I do not believe this damage is an issue due to how squishy the DPS pets are. Maybe a slight shave on damage but it should only be slight. But I have always been a proponent of high risk and high reward.

 

2. While pets might be high risk high reward, the REAL problem is that the CORE RANGER has no risk for its reward. 1 traitline allows ranger to have amazing sustain and survivability which allows the ranger to go tanky and let the pets do all the damage for the class. THIS HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM SINCE LAUNCH. The first beastmaster meta in 2013, pets did too much damage (didn't even need Marskmanship and got nerfed). Then again when druid came out. Druid could wear minstrels and be god tier tanky while pets nuked people (pets were nerfed). Since both of these issues have been addressed, the last issue stems from Wilderness Survival...

 

Wilderness Survival: This traitline provides condi clear, cool down reductions on ranger's best heal, and on ranger's stunbreak skills. It provides protection on dodge and also allows for the ranger to heal from the protection on it. One traitline provides all the defense ranger needs which allows it to go double offensive traitlines for the pet to maintain damage.

 

Nerfing pets will just make ranger a non-player once again. It is a dueling 1v1 class that has little teamfight presence and is still outclassed 1v1 by many builds - when played well. Without pets ranger will have absolutely 0 chance of not only sustaining (because you need damage to pressure people off of you) but also 0 chance to kill things like prot holo or weaver with any core build.

 

So to reiterate the problem is too much bang for your buck in Wilderness Survival which provides the ranger all the sustain it needs, and slightly too much damage on the pet.

 

One of these needs to be addressed. Personally I think nerfing the damage - which if you dodge the F2 you mitigate the damage and an entire traitline - is not necessarily the right path. When nerfing ranger's sustain and defense would make ranger more easily killable while maintaining it's offense - this could be done by splitting some defensive traits into Nature Magic or Skirmishing. ie. forcing the class to go more risk for the current reward - something that I think should exist in more areas of the game - instead of lowering the reward while keeping low risk - something that provides boring gameplay.

 

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> Core ranger has 2 issues.

>

> 1. Pets do too much damage But I have always been a proponent of high risk and high reward.

>

> 2. While pets might be high risk high reward

 

tbh i don't think pet and ranger should be looked at separately, yes sure, if u look at these two subjects separately you can justify how the pets are high risk high reward.

 

but that's not the case, pet and ranger are one, pet health can simply be looked as energy ranger has for it's damage dealt to be done by it's "clone", or it can also be looked at as "ranged attacks" mechanically wise,

pets are just moving auto pilot damage that ranger has.

 

having damage done by by something while you are far away reduces the risk you take, and right now pet does too much damage for the risk ranger takes(esp with the number of damage mitigation options built in weapon set) in my opinion, in relation to the current overall sustain.

i think it's best to move a small portion of overall pet damage to ranger weapon for risk increase,

just throwing some thoughts.

 

 

[Eurantien.4632]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > Core ranger has 2 issues.

> >

> > 1. Pets do too much damage But I have always been a proponent of high risk and high reward.

> >

> > 2. While pets might be high risk high reward

>

> tbh i don't think pet and ranger should be looked at separately, yes sure, if u look at these two subjects separately you can justify how the pets are high risk high reward.

>

> but that's not the case, pet and ranger are one, pet health can simply be looked as energy ranger has for it's damage dealt to be done by it's "clone", or it can also be looked at as "ranged attacks" mechanically wise,

> pets are just moving auto pilot damage that ranger has.

>

> having damage done by by something while you are far away reduces the risk you take, and right now pet does too much damage for the risk ranger takes(esp with the number of damage mitigation options built in weapon set) in my opinion, in relation to the current overall sustain.

> i think it's best to move a small portion of overall pet damage to ranger weapon for risk increase,

> just throwing some thoughts.

>

>

 

We tried that, it is called soulbeast. It's been nerfed several times in a row. In addition, Greatsword has also been nerfed several times. I get where you're coming from, and I'm saying it should come in the form of less sustain on ranger.

[shadowpass.4236]

The problem with forcing ranger to take two defensive traitlines like wilderness survival and nature magic is that beastmastery is also mandatory for core ranger because the extra stats help prevent the pet from dying to random condis and cleave.

 

They nerfed base damage so much that core will literally never be able to kill anything on sets like lb/gs because 3.3k maul crits every 4.75 seconds won't be enough to ever down anything. Hence why skirmishing is completely trash on core ranger atm - there's just not enough damage without modifiers and damage from marks or soulbeast.