Decay vs Grind - Endgame

[GummyBearSummoner.7941]

No thank you. I play a game that has this feature and I always turn it off. That’s one of the things I like about this game because since I work a lot in the ER & don’t have all the time to grind, I’m happy to know all that I’ve worked hard for is not lost when I get back.

Hopefully Anet doesn’t getting any ideas with this post -.-

[Brian.6973]

@Obtena.7952 in general I don't think decay was a consideration at the time, and it is hard to change after the fact. I do not think they want any grind, and have done a better job than most.

 

@Taygus.4571 someone argued above about grinding for max not being worth it with decay, exotic is not the endgame standard.

 

@GummyBearSummoner.7941 as I am a casual player I also don't like grind, and I don't understand the maths with respect to this being more grind. If you spend 1/10 the time getting a weapon which needs re-crafting every couple months of heavy game play, then that should reduce grind. If you are a casual player it would last even longer.

 

I think the issue is most are vets and already have this stuff, so then it does not make sense.

[Trise.2865]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> You can reduce the repetitiveness a bit with replay by having multiple zones to farm the same crafting items.

>

 

Replace grind with grind. Great idea.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> The idea that decay requires more grind due to re-grind doesn't make sense.

> Having items that are immortal means massive upfront grind since there is no replay. If you want immortal then decay gives that choice; you can either spend 30 days to gather 100 years worth of recrafts, or you can spend a few hours on occasion. Going back to a place to pickup resources occasionally can't be defined as grind, and if it is that means the decay rate is set too high.

 

So in your opinion, the option to take 10 times as long to reach "immortal" status for your weapons/armor/what have you vs having to go back and do it again when the item decays is bad. You don't have to rush to reach "end game", there's also nothing stopping people from going back and redoing older content to gather materials, plenty of people in this game constantly return to gather materials, just not to replenish a broken/decayed item...decay is actually the one thing I dislike about FO76. I'd much rather just tromp around the landscape killing enemies and doing events, than having to gather materials to constantly repair my weapons and armor.

 

>@GummyBearSummoner.7941 as I am a casual player I also don't like grind, and I don't understand the maths with respect to this being more grind. If you spend 1/10 the time getting a weapon which needs re-crafting every couple months of heavy game play, then that should reduce grind. If you are a casual player it would last even longer.

 

Let me explain how not having decay eliminates the grind entirely using your example above...once you've taken that 1/10 the time to get a weapon that doesn't decay, whether your a heavy game player or light game player you never have to go back and re-craft said weapon. It also doesn't take 10 times as long to get the weapon in the first place = no grind involved unless you insist on having Ascended or Legendary, neither of which are necessary to play the game...it can all be done with exotics, except higher tier Fractals, even Raids from what I've read on these forums.

[Taygus.4571]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> @

> @Taygus.4571 someone argued above about grinding for max not being worth it with decay, exotic is not the endgame standard.

>

 

exotic is more than good enough for end game, except T3 and T4 fractals. You can raid in exotics, can do wvw in exotics.

Theres only a 5% damage difference betqeen ascended and exotic and its barely noticeable.

 

You basically want to have to keep re earning and grinding your exotics, so you don't have to grind for ascended?(which takes no time at all, to craft btw).

 

That makes absolutely no sense.

[maddoctor.2738]

Decay is a great tool when it comes to competitive aspects of a game, where a player might be "good" at the game, but if they come back 3 years later, they might've forgotten most of what they knew. In that case decay helps by lowering the rating of a player, if they are still good at the game they will climb the ladder quickly, if they aren't as good anymore they will climb slower, and if they really forgot how to play they'd at least get proper match ups. It's one of the -many- reasons PVP uses some form of decay, to keep match ups balanced. But to add some form of decay in PVE? There is zero point to add any form of decay in PVE.

 

> The weapon and armour system again doesn’t decay, so there is one long grind to get the best weapons / armour, and then it is done. If weapons lost durability with use then every so often players would go on material hunts to recraft. This means less grind and less dead zones in the future.

 

If players were forced to go on a material hunt to craft their items again, that would mean extra grind, not less. And besides, the one thing that eliminates your idea is the wardrobe. The main reason to craft the most expensive items is for their looks, if they decay and get destroyed, you can still craft the cheaper item and then port the skin over. A summary of your idea is: "less grind, but more often", which is still a grind.

 

As an example, let's take a random costly skin like Volcanus, a fiery greatsword. Volcanus costs 515g today. The stats are those of a regular exotic weapon, which you can get for 1g or 2g. What would adding decay to the weapon do? According to you, it will reduce the grind, so let's say it will make Volcanus cheaper, lower the crafting requirements. But even with decay, you won't need to craft Volcanus ever again, it's a one-time deal, it's expensive because the skin is expensive.

 

Ascended items are similar. The only exceptions to this rule are Legendary items because you don't get simply the skin, but the functionality too. so your idea would be to make them cheaper, but require the player to "re-grind" for them every so often? Not a very good idea either, imagine a returning player after a few months that suddenly has no Legendary equipment.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

 

> Let me explain how not having decay eliminates the grind entirely using your example above...once you've taken that 1/10 the time to get a weapon that doesn't decay, whether your a heavy game player or light game player you never have to go back and re-craft said weapon.

I already don't have to go back and re-craft anything. My exotics (and ONE ascended weapon) don't decay so I will never have to re-craft or buy them again. I despise being forced to craft; fortunately, I can play GW2 without having to do any crafting.

 

The casuals I know are more than glad to keep it this way.

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Taygus.4571" said:

> You basically want to have to keep re earning and grinding your exotics, so you don't have to grind for ascended?(which takes no time at all, to craft btw).

>

> That makes absolutely no sense.

Exactly!

 

[lare.5129]

endgame? close ALL possible achievements. Not done already ? So this is not end.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

>

> > Let me explain how not having decay eliminates the grind entirely using your example above...once you've taken that 1/10 the time to get a weapon that doesn't decay, whether your a heavy game player or light game player you never have to go back and re-craft said weapon.

> I already don't have to go back and re-craft anything. My exotics (and ONE ascended weapon) don't decay so I will never have to re-craft or buy them again. I despise being forced to craft; fortunately, I can play GW2 without having to do any crafting.

>

> The casuals I know are more than glad to keep it this way.

>

>

 

That's what I explained to the OP, you just wanted to reinforce why decay is a bad thing I take it?

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Luthan.5236" said:

> System described in the first post seems boring to me. It would mean I could never really reach the permanent maximum magic find ... if there was decay. Even though it would be possible to get it quickly ... I would stop caring about it. There wouldn't be any motivation to get it at all.

>

> Now there is a bit motivation. It takes long to max it but it feels like a real goal for you to work towards. On the other hand it does not feel grindy because it doesn't feel like the game is forcing me to do it as quickly as possible. I can get rare items even with low magic find.

>

> Personally I'd find it more grindy to have to do stuff again. (What you describe as "replayability".) I like to finish my stuff so I can focus on the fun things. (PvP and other stuff.) If the game forced me to get new equipment every time ... that would feel repetitive and even more boring than grinding to get something 1 time.

 

Even without decay you probably will never reach maximum MF because you continue to get more from the AP chests.

 

However the suggests of this type strikes me as being incredibly ignorant. We already see how people respond to that sort of things in the form the complaints from the various patches that required chronos to change their gear and that is only stat swapping/rune changes and only for a subset of players.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

So, every couple of months one grinds/gathers/whatever to replenish 10 times, which would equal a one-and-done.

What happens in month 22 and beyond? We are now in month 43; with the OP's method we would have had to 'grind' twice as long for the same items.

[lokh.2695]

Don't see this happening and I don't see the necessity either.

 

Playing the game for AP, skins, gold or, and this might suprise some people, fun is the endgame. You get to the top of the mountain, then see where you WANT to go from there.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"lokh.2695" said:

> Don't see this happening and I don't see the necessity either.

>

> Playing the game for AP, skins, gold or, and this might suprise some people, fun is the endgame. You get to the top of the mountain, then see where you WANT to go from there.

 

I really hope no one is surprised that fun is a reason to play a game.

 

I wonder how people like the OP would respond to a game like the new Jedi: Fallen Order where after the first bit which is effectively an extended tutorial you don't keep chasing new items. You don't upgrade your equipment or gain new abilities, just learn new ways to solve challenges using the tools you've already got. That's not actually uncommon in games but must be a bit of a barrier for people who feel the need to constantly be chasing the next thing the game requires them to have.

[Solanum.6983]

I'd rather Grind and keep my item than have it quicker/for less for it to not be permanent.

For the most part the Grind in this game is worth it, My only issue being the excessive Time gates on some things.

[coso.9173]

in BOTW decay was done correctly, because all weapons would break, but it was easy getting new ones.

I'm up for decay only if it's easier to get the weapons back or new ones again.

[totaloverride.3240]

you don't need decay, when you have constant balancing updates....

just as you get used to some class, new update arrive, and either you change class or you quit game after few updates.... bcs your class become obsolete...

i'm just tired of changing classes (with that change, entire gameplay and rotation change)

 

and now you throw a new wrench into this mess....

grind for legendary gear (weeks per piece) now you wanna decay that?!?!!??!?!!?

what is wrong with you?!?!?!!?!?!??!

is this intro for 10$ per piece for eternal gear?

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> Decay introduces replayability and reduces grind.

I prefer to choose which content to replay, because it's fun, instead of being forced into playing specific stuff (even if there's a variety of options) to keep my already developed characters viable.

 

This game is endlessly replayable to people who like to choose their own goals and grow their own carots. If you prefer games that tell you what to play and define goals for you, changing this game isn't the way to go with so many others already out there competing for that kind of gamer.

 

[Randulf.7614]

> @"coso.9173" said:

> in BOTW decay was done correctly, because all weapons would break, but it was easy getting new ones.

> I'm up for decay only if it's easier to get the weapons back or new ones again.

 

Going to disagree. Decay in BOTW was not a good implementation and added nothing to the game apart from annoyance. Yes weapons were easy to get because they just respawned after the red moon - back where they were usually (making it even more pointless), but weapons rarely lasted a handful of fights. The whole thing was very tedious

 

I hope no future game I play copies that and certainly not GW2

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> I have been playing MMORPGS for a very long time, and there is something about endgame that I don’t get with the newer games. MMOs are 99% endgame, and that endgame should feel rewarding not grindy. MMOs strive not to create dead-zones where players don't have any particular interest in going back. There is a simple mechanic that can fix this, which is decay.

>

> Decay introduces replayability and reduces grind. For example take magic find; currently you can grid it to max once and then it's done. If decay was introduced you could max it in a couple hours and it would decay over a couple weeks. Suddenly you have endgamers boosting their magic find before going to raid.

>

> The weapon and armour system again doesn’t decay, so there is one long grind to get the best weapons / armour, and then it is done. If weapons lost durability with use then every so often players would go on material hunts to recraft. This means less grind and less dead zones in the future.

>

> If there is too much decay there is grind due to too much replay, but no decay means zero replay and forces max upfront grind for endgame items.

> You can reduce the repetitiveness a bit with replay by having multiple zones to farm the same crafting items.

>

 

Anet already implemented something called “Diminishing Returns”... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diminishing_returns

 

 

Anet made the best, and least annoying, gearing system of any fantasy mmo. What you are proposing with weapons is an unnecessary annoyance that nobody here wants, including the devs.

[Brian.6973]

As mentioned above, don't think I am going to win this discussion, but UO had practically no grind but weapons had durability. You would just go mine the ore, smelt and build in 15 min, not a grind at all was fun. Later on they added imbuing materials so you could add custom stats, but it never felt like a grind since very little time was spent gathering. Sorry but still have not seen a new mmo top that, but maybe I am just too old school now lol. In general this seems like more of a preference, and vet players who already have stuff will likely want to keep things the same. Hunting / gathering / crafting seems to be seen as not fun but annoying, so it's more a 'get it over with' thing.

 

Above someone wrote off decay as as a completely outdated mechanic, but without having things that break I don't think RPGs could exist. The HP / MP reduces, the wvw walls and siege weapons break at least.

 

 

 

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> without having things that break I don't think RPGs could exist. The HP / MP reduces, the wvw walls and siege weapons break at least.

 

But it is about ensuring the right things "break" or "decay"

 

The examples you use though don't really work at least in the same context. Siege weapons don't really break, they get destroyed by the opposition who actively target it. If siege didn't disappear in some way, then WvW would be a mess. It's a mechanic that has to happen. If hp/mp didn't reduce, then there is no conflict at all. Weapons breaking is not in the same league of importance.

 

If weapons break after use, then we move out of fantasy RPG territory and move into simulation. And that's not something that compliments this game world. GW2 appeals to the convenience, the slick, fluid action play. Broken weapons is an annoyance to that

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> As mentioned above, don't think I am going to win this discussion, but UO had practically no grind but weapons had durability.

...I am sorry to tell you that, but UO could easily be used as a textbook example of grind.

 

> You would just go mine the ore, smelt and build in 15 min, not a grind at all was fun.

Maybe the first time, but it got boring veeery fast. And it was just one of many things that caused you spend most of the time in game "preparing to have fun".

Thanks, i'll pass on that.

 

> Sorry but still have not seen a new mmo top that, but maybe I am just too old school now lol.

Nah, UO was considered to be extremely grindy even when it was new. Some players liked that. Most didn't.

 

There's a reason why the size of UO's population, while considered to be not bad for the early wave of MMORPGs, is still not so good even compared to a lot of _less_ succesful games from later times (much less to the real big titles).

 

 

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> As mentioned above, don't think I am going to win this discussion, but UO had practically no grind but weapons had durability. You would just go mine the ore, smelt and build in 15 min, not a grind at all was fun. Later on they added imbuing materials so you could add custom stats, but it never felt like a grind since very little time was spent gathering. Sorry but still have not seen a new mmo top that, but maybe I am just too old school now lol. In general this seems like more of a preference, and vet players who already have stuff will likely want to keep things the same. Hunting / gathering / crafting seems to be seen as not fun but annoying, so it's more a 'get it over with' thing.

>

> Above someone wrote off decay as as a completely outdated mechanic, but without having things that break I don't think RPGs could exist. The HP / MP reduces, the wvw walls and siege weapons break at least.

>

>

>

 

“ MMOs strive not to create dead-zones where players don't have any particular interest in going back. There is a simple mechanic that can fix this, which is decay.”

 

We have “decay”, it’s called “Diminishing Returns”. The longer you play in a zone the less rewards you get. Another form of decay is meta rewards, that can only be earned 1x per day. There are other examples in game too... And Anet also strives to keep zones relevant through currencies.

 

Some of us see some old mechanics as needless annoyances. There is zero value to adding weapon decay, just in an effort to force players to do some menial tasks.

 

There is lots of stuff that needs to stay in the past, and your ideas are some of them. However, if you like that stuff then nothing prevents you from playing games that have those types of mechanics.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Brian.6973" said:

> > As mentioned above, don't think I am going to win this discussion, but UO had practically no grind but weapons had durability. You would just go mine the ore, smelt and build in 15 min, not a grind at all was fun. Later on they added imbuing materials so you could add custom stats, but it never felt like a grind since very little time was spent gathering. Sorry but still have not seen a new mmo top that, but maybe I am just too old school now lol. In general this seems like more of a preference, and vet players who already have stuff will likely want to keep things the same. Hunting / gathering / crafting seems to be seen as not fun but annoying, so it's more a 'get it over with' thing.

> >

> > Above someone wrote off decay as as a completely outdated mechanic, but without having things that break I don't think RPGs could exist. The HP / MP reduces, the wvw walls and siege weapons break at least.

> >

> >

> >

>

> “ MMOs strive not to create dead-zones where players don't have any particular interest in going back. There is a simple mechanic that can fix this, which is decay.”

>

> We have “decay”, it’s called “Diminishing Returns”. The longer you play in a zone the less rewards you get. Another form of decay is meta rewards, that can only be earned 1x per day. There are other examples in game too... And Anet also strives to keep zones relevant through currencies.

>

> Some of us see some old mechanics as needless annoyances. There is zero value to adding weapon decay, just in an effort to force players to do some menial tasks.

>

> There is lots of stuff that needs to stay in the past, and your ideas are some of them. However, if you like that stuff then nothing prevents you from playing games that have those types of mechanics.

 

The OP could also destroy their weapons after x nr of fights and recraft them.