Thieves - How do you beat them? Just how?

[saerni.2584]

@"Vashuddha.1538"

 

As a few people mentioned the big way to handle thieves is dependent on what weapon set they are running. For stealth issues, I’d suggest that you also need to understand the utilities and traitlines that give a thief stealth access or uptime. Then we can talk about “how to nevertheless fight against thief stealth.”

 

So, let’s talk stealth—apologies this is going to be a super deep dive into understanding thief stealth access. Personally, understanding how the enemy thief is gaining stealth is the most important thing to playing well against a stealth heavy thief. It’s also what people mean when they say “play thief to understand how to fight it.”

 

Let’s start with weapon skills. D/P is a classic example because the leap combo of Black Powder + Heartseeker is a easy way for the thief to gain stealth regardless of where they are. It’s also the most obvious tell because you can see the Black Powder ring. Otherwise, offhand Dagger has a slow and expensive weapon skill, Cloak and Dagger, that grants stealth if the melee strike hits a target. But, because it is a direct stealth ability, they will pop up after a set period of time because they can’t stack stealth—melee hits while stealthed apply revealed after all, only chain it a microsecond after stealth expires, and they need to stay in melee range of something to pull it off. Deadeye’s rifle can also lay down a small smoke field and then use Death’s Retreat through it for stealth access similar to Dagger/Pistol but harder to chain.

 

Next, let’s talk about traits and utilities that directly grant stealth. Shadow Arts (traitline) is available to all variants of thief and can grant stealth on Steal and always grants stealth on using Heal skill. As for core utilities, Hide in Shadows (heal), Shadow Refuge, and Blinding Powder directly grant stealth, as does using the Shadow Portal Preparation utility (although you probably won’t see this as a combat tactic given the utility is mainly used for running very far away). For Core and Daredevil, if the thief uses Steal on another thief (and random off NPCs) they gain a stolen skill that grants stealth and AoE blinds around them. If the thief also took Improvisation (Deadly Arts traitline) they will be able to use this skill twice. On Deadeye, you will also have access to Shadow Gust and Shadow Meld utility/elite skills. Deadeye also has the option of Sniper’s Scope (trait) to gain stealth on dodge. Further, Deadeye stolen skills grant stealth if used at 5+ malice (generated from landing weapon skills and especially from those skills critically striking) (Deadeye can gain additional stolen skills from cantrips (Deadeye trait) or from Improvisation (Deadly Arts trait).

 

As for indirectly, a thief can use Blinding Powder in a smoke field to gain additional stealth uptime. Likewise, Smoke Screen offers a smoke field that you can do leap or blast finishers through for indirect stealth access. As mentioned, on a core thief, leaps will come from Main Hand Dagger (Heartseeker) and blasts from Shortbow (Cluster Bomb). You can also get a leap finisher on Deadeye from Rifle’s Desth’s Retreat skill. On Daredevil, you may see the thief taking the trait that turns their dodge into a leap finisher. This is another way for a thief to take advantage of smoke fields generated by utilities or their weapons to gain stealth readily.

 

Are you having trouble fighting Core, Daredevil or Deadeye? We can go from there based on the above how to handle the methods they use for stealth.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Vashuddha.1538" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > I mean, if you think the class has unfair advantage, then play it and see for yourself. I'm not sure how you can throw up judgements against a class when you don't know how exactly it functions. The best way to go about it is to actually try it by yourself to get to know it.

> > The only thing I could agree with here is that stealth needs to be a bit more limited in the form of a hard cap on duration, but there were threads about it already and I already said what I think should be changed.

> >

> > Pretty sure there was also a thread from a warrior player some time ago about "how to fight teef" on this subforum, so feel free to use search function.

>

> I'm not really throwing up any judgements, I'm just expressing myself. I'm entitled to my own opinion, and if someone can prove me wrong then I will be happy to listen to what you have to say, but do it in a constructive way, because discrediting me and branding me like some kind of lier won't work. My lack of knowledge of the class was made very clear, and I honestly don't need to be patronized and insulted because of it.

 

Interesting. I gave you an advice to try the class yourself, because writing what you did in an opening post makes no sense if you don't know the class in the first place and it's "patronizing and insulting", but later someone told you the same thing and you responded with "Not a bad idea. I will take this in to accounts. Thank you☺️".

Ok then. :D

[ASP.8093]

> @"Vashuddha.1538" said:

> Take this video for example. It kind of illustrates the point I am trying to make: [https://youtube.com/watch?v=xhEK0-08U7Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhEK0-08U7Q)

 

This player is an incredibly good duelist and she could probably absolutely steamroll a me-level player while taking near-zero damage playing another class like guardian, rev, ele, or mesmer just as easily, tbh.

[Fueki.4753]

You aren't supposed to defeat them, you are supposed to defend your point against them and make them retreat.

Running away and coming back when the point is undefended is their job.

[Taobella.6597]

> @"ASP.8093" said:

> > @"Vashuddha.1538" said:

> > Take this video for example. It kind of illustrates the point I am trying to make: [https://youtube.com/watch?v=xhEK0-08U7Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhEK0-08U7Q)

>

> This player is an incredibly good duelist and she could probably absolutely steamroll a me-level player while taking near-zero damage playing another class like guardian, rev, ele, or mesmer just as easily, tbh.

 

that video is prime example of warrior just being out classed. what warrior should of been doing is baiting attacks with auto swing then using movement skill at end of dodge roll. because he trying to force pressure on thief with slow movement skills he got punish. that exactly how you do not want to fight a thief

[pureskullz.7536]

> @"Vashuddha.1538" said:

> I consider myself to be a decent player. I mainly play Guardian and Warrior, and find myself to do quite well against any class, except for thieves. Recently in WvW, and quite often, it's not uncommon to see a group of 3-4 players fighting of ONE Thief, and engagements such as these can last up for at least 20 minuets, if not more, and it usually ends up with players becoming lenient and fed up doing their best to avoid any further confrontation with them. My intention is not commence a heated discussion on whether thieves needs some mechanical adjustments or not, who sucks and who doesn't, but based on my own experience I can't help to think that something needs to change, or perhaps is there a way to counter the thief's ridiculous capabilities?

>

> The thief can instantly, and for an unknown extended period of time render themselves completely invisible, and they seem to be able to do this in intervals that is beyond my comprehension. I am aware that there is a certain time limit for stealthing, but being able to calculate when and where they are going to attack is just incomprehensible. The constant stealth, and instant teleports to an enemy location combined with insane burst damage forces you to pop CDs almost instantly, and they seem to be capable of doing so for what seems to be forever.. It's practically impossible to even calculate where their next position might be, and whenever they decide to attack you're left with a nanosecond to respond and it makes it virtually impossible to counter it. You might get lucky and get a few hits here and there, and perhaps even reach their given location, but it doesn't take long before they stealth again and BOOM - game over. As a warrior the only ability you have to break stealth (if you're not running Spellbreaker build) is "On My Mark", but the advantages are insignificant, and the only real possible solution is to spam a bunch of skills in hopes that you might be able to hit them unknowingly while they're stealthed. This even leaves you in a deeper state of hopelessness due to most of your skills being on CD before the fight has even lasted 10 seconds. Their constant evades and their insane mobility just makes it kitten near impossible to keep up with them, and the only way for you to defeat them is if they mess up, or so it seems. Anyone who would argue that thieves are underpowered or broken has never met a thief that knows his or her way around, and it is perfectly understandable that people who play them would try to discredit this, but this is just my experience.

>

> Is it possible that anyone who manages to reach a certain skill level as a thief is capable of reaching a peak of insane "god mode", and that the possible broken mechanics become more apparent? I would assume that if a class is capable of kiting and easily pick apart a group of players in such fashion is a clear indication that the thieves are in a unfair advantage (?) The level of frustration while going up against a thief seems unnecessary and completely ruins the fun in WvW. It just seems to take an insane amount of brain power to handle them. I do wish to stress the fact that this is based on MY personal experience and if you don't agree then that's fine, but I'm certain that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Would love to hear some feedback, and if you're a thief, feel free to share some of your secrets ;)

>

> All the best.

>

>

>

>

 

Honestly, if a thief is in 1vX and it's lasting more than 20 minutes they are not beating them and barely getting any kills out of it. The thief that's doing it is generally bored and probably has nowhere to get more kills. Typically they will jump on you to try to see how tanky you are and the only way a thief kills a guard or warrior is if they commit to that fight completely. If it's a perm stealth thief run reveals or just run away honestly perm stealth even vs another thief will win most of the fights. If it's a condi thief don't fight it either. Condi thief (P/D) counters a lot of the meta right now. But if it's a power thief trick them into wasting cooldowns and never ever chase a thief. You're not gonna catch a thief they have to many escapes. When I'm in wvw and I see a guard or warrior I'll do a few test burst on them to get an idea of what they are running(traits, build, utilities etc) and depending on the people in the area I'll jump on them but if another player jumps in I just leave and try my luck somewhere else to get more kills. Warrior and guard are hard to fight on thief it's doable 1v1 but takes a bit of time and outnumbered it's not worth it if they are equally as skilled. Anyways, if you are struggling against them in a fight just leave it. If you can CC them or Condi burst I'd highly recommend doing that a thief typically doesn't have many stun breaks or condi cleanse so good luck.

[Yasai.3549]

Beat Thieves the same way they try to beat everyone else : fast damage burst and outmaneuver them when they retaliate.

The only difference is that a Thief can try multiple times in succession, while yu only have 1 shot.

 

However this is balanced by the fact that Thieves only have 1 shot at living as well, because when a damage spike goes through, they are almost always confirmed to go down.

[VICBEAR.1529]

I could understand similar post maybe in 2014 but today many characters have stealth, teleports, speed, power.

 

Playing any character you always plan to fight. This is your joy.

Playing a thief you always plan to survive and maybe to spoil nerves someone.

 

Give thief a necro health or a revenant power and remove thief stealth completely.

[mikdepadua.8376]

Best advice would be to try playing one. Applies to any class you're having trouble with. Playing in sPvP is good enough.

[Vecuu.2018]

So, I play a lot of the style talked about in this thread. Just some quick light shedding and advice for fighting these types of thieves.

 

First of all, know that the thief is toying with you. It's the thief's major function: to harass and hit and run. You hate it because it lasts 20 minutes, but the thief loves it because, against the right group of players, they can do it to you for _hours._ I only need one take down every 10 minutes or so to keep my WvW tracks capped out. To that end, I'm not actually trying to kill _most of you._ I just need to find that one guy who's level 70 in Greens and farm him while ya'll try your best to stop me. It's hilarious and enjoyable.

 

A quick bit about how the stealth works. There are a couple of different builds, but most rely on the same handful of tricks:

-Cloak and Dagger, which is done by offhand dagger skill #5. It isn't very initiative efficient and gets blocked by Aegis and prevents the stealth, so Guardians make this tough with Aegis sharing. You can also dodge roll the animation and we whiff.

-Heal skill. IIRC, most players use Hide in Shadows which has a lengthy cast animation you can interrupt. Personally I use a traited Withdraw, which is harder to interract with.

-Smoke field from either offhand pistol #5 or a utility skill and then using Heartseeker through it. Either the thief is dropping a utility skill to take a long cooldown blind field or projectile blocker, which means less burst, or they're using even more Initative on a P/D combo for #5->#2.

-Shadow Refuge. Not all thieves take this because more and more people are taking powerful AoEs for Zerg fighting. Your mileage may vary, but, general wisdom, is to knock/pull them out of it and they get insta-revealed.

-F1 stealing with Shadow Arts. Honestly, this is the king of 1vXing. It's a full on reposition tool with stealth built in that I will often target another Thief to get another tool to vanish again. Paired with Shadowstep's two blinks and CC breakers, this makes us a real pain. I will be in, then out, then in, then in again, then out then in then out.

 

The first rule of fighting these types of thieves is to realize what build you're up against. Generally, you run into either a D/P power build, or a P/D condition build. There are D/D builds that either go full-power-oneshot, usually given away by Basilisk Venom on their bar, or D/D condi-evasion builds which are troll and can be given away by either Sigil of Malice, or small caltrop AoEs popping up when they dodge. Knowing which type of thief you're fighting is half the battle! (bonus: Deadeyes don't _generally_ want to 1vX, they want to 1v1 and make you explode, same with any variant of P/P whether Daredevil or Classic who want to be backline DPS as you fight their friends).

 

Another bonus trick: Especially don't fight us just East of Dredge near SMC or near some of the Boderland Shrines. We can use Shortbow #5 to do terrain jumps up cliffs and the likes in certain places which makes us extra slippery.

 

A well played LB Druid, or various styles of Guardians/Eles can make our life pretty tough. Aegis does a good of stopping both backstab builds as well as condi Cloak and Dagger restealths. I cannot stress how annoying Aegis can be. It's a long cooldown for one player, but if ya'll are a 5man party or squaded up, condi builds can't easily target swap to CnD the nearest guy since every person has an Aegis I have to first pop before we can restealth. Generally, the tankier you are and the more condi cleanse you bring, the less likely a thief will even bother with you. You become the bait to spawn Orange Swords and bring those eager new players for us to farm.

 

Also, bring CC and try to catch us at the end of a dodgeroll.

 

TL;DR:

 

If you're fighting a thief for more than 5 minutes, it's because the thief likes it. Go find something better to do.

 

 

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Mil.3562" said:

> I think the first reply could have been less rude and arrogant. Afterall, OP is just narrating his experience and opinions.

 

Something common in thief discussions I find.

 

Many times i've seen people post their experiences against thieves only to be met with comments dimissing everything or talking about how underpowered thief is.

I've had my own posts and experiences shut down the same way many times.

 

Much like above someone said Thieves don't stealth in combat and yet i've fought many who do, read many posts from others who've had similar if not the same experiences with stealthing thieves in combat.. and not not just once or twice but constantly popping in and out of stealth every few seconds.

Yet all we ever hear is pfft no that doesnt happen.

 

When peoples experiences don't live up to what thief players say on the forums it doesn't help their perception of the class at all, if anything it hurts it and makes them suspect foul play or cheating.

Which only adds to more nerf thief or I hate thieves threads.

[kash.9213]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Mil.3562" said:

> > I think the first reply could have been less rude and arrogant. Afterall, OP is just narrating his experience and opinions.

>

> Something common in thief discussions I find.

>

> Many times i've seen people post their experiences against thieves only to be met with comments dimissing everything or talking about how underpowered thief is.

> I've had my own posts and experiences shut down the same way many times.

>

> Much like above someone said Thieves don't stealth in combat and yet i've fought many who do, read many posts from others who've had similar if not the same experiences with stealthing thieves in combat.. and not not just once or twice but constantly popping in and out of stealth every few seconds.

> Yet all we ever hear is pfft no that doesnt happen.

>

> When peoples experiences don't live up to what thief players say on the forums it doesn't help their perception of the class at all, if anything it hurts it and makes them suspect foul play or cheating.

> Which only adds to more nerf thief or I hate thieves threads.

 

If someone like OP is going to come out of the gate and mask a nerf thread as a question then what do they expect? If you make a thread or a post and say something like "thieves are overpowered with infinite stealth, evades, mobility, and can one shot from stealth....oh ya and, what should I do when I see one?" you know you're being disingenuous. This forum has always been helpful with people who are actually asking for feedback and suggestions. OP wasn't looking for feedback, OP made a nerf thread.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Vecuu.2018" said:

> So, I play a lot of the style talked about in this thread. Just some quick light shedding and advice for fighting these types of thieves.

>

> First of all, know that the thief is toying with you. It's the thief's major function: to harass and hit and run. You hate it because it lasts 20 minutes, but the thief loves it because, against the right group of players, they can do it to you for _hours._ I only need one take down every 10 minutes or so to keep my WvW tracks capped out. To that end, I'm not actually trying to kill _most of you._ I just need to find that one guy who's level 70 in Greens and farm him while ya'll try your best to stop me. It's hilarious and enjoyable.

>

> A quick bit about how the stealth works. There are a couple of different builds, but most rely on the same handful of tricks:

> -Cloak and Dagger, which is done by offhand dagger skill #5. It isn't very initiative efficient and gets blocked by Aegis and prevents the stealth, so Guardians make this tough with Aegis sharing. You can also dodge roll the animation and we whiff.

> -Heal skill. IIRC, most players use Hide in Shadows which has a lengthy cast animation you can interrupt. Personally I use a traited Withdraw, which is harder to interract with.

> -Smoke field from either offhand pistol #5 or a utility skill and then using Heartseeker through it. Either the thief is dropping a utility skill to take a long cooldown blind field or projectile blocker, which means less burst, or they're using even more Initative on a P/D combo for #5->#2.

> -Shadow Refuge. Not all thieves take this because more and more people are taking powerful AoEs for Zerg fighting. Your mileage may vary, but, general wisdom, is to knock/pull them out of it and they get insta-revealed.

> -F1 stealing with Shadow Arts. Honestly, this is the king of 1vXing. It's a full on reposition tool with stealth built in that I will often target another Thief to get another tool to vanish again. Paired with Shadowstep's two blinks and CC breakers, this makes us a real pain. I will be in, then out, then in, then in again, then out then in then out.

>

> The first rule of fighting these types of thieves is to realize what build you're up against. Generally, you run into either a D/P power build, or a P/D condition build. There are D/D builds that either go full-power-oneshot, usually given away by Basilisk Venom on their bar, or D/D condi-evasion builds which are troll and can be given away by either Sigil of Malice, or small caltrop AoEs popping up when they dodge. Knowing which type of thief you're fighting is half the battle! (bonus: Deadeyes don't _generally_ want to 1vX, they want to 1v1 and make you explode, same with any variant of P/P whether Daredevil or Classic who want to be backline DPS as you fight their friends).

>

> Another bonus trick: Especially don't fight us just East of Dredge near SMC or near some of the Boderland Shrines. We can use Longbow #5 to do terrain jumps up cliffs and the likes in certain places which makes us extra slippery.

>

> A well played LB Druid, or various styles of Guardians/Eles can make our life pretty tough. Aegis does a good of stopping both backstab builds as well as condi Cloak and Dagger restealths. I cannot stress how annoying Aegis can be. It's a long cooldown for one player, but if ya'll are a 5man party or squaded up, condi builds can't easily target swap to CnD the nearest guy since every person has an Aegis I have to first pop before we can restealth. Generally, the tankier you are and the more condi cleanse you bring, the less likely a thief will even bother with you. You become the bait to spawn Orange Swords and bring those eager new players for us to farm.

>

> Also, bring CC and try to catch us at the end of a dodgeroll.

>

> TL;DR:

>

> If you're fighting a thief for more than 5 minutes, it's because the thief likes it. Go find something better to do.

>

>

 

Back during HoT I kited at least 10 players around their EBG keep for 20 minutes until I got bored.

 

That was back when Daredevil was busted levels of mobility with no Exhaustion mechanic, and the sentries didn’t have marked either.

 

The point is, people will be tunnel visioned on finishing a thief, but that won’t help. Play as a team and the thief won’t be able to win. As a Deadeye who takes 1v3s my goal is to split you up and make you lose sight of where I am until suddenly one of you goes down and I’m there to stomp before anyone can stop me. It’s not that I’m OP, it’s that stealth creates opportunities for mind games.

 

@"Teratus.2859" Please forgive forum thieves for not being entirely forgiving ourselves. Every single thief has likely been whispered things that can’t be repeated here on account of our profession. We are a little wary of people making overly broad statements about us for that reason.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Vecuu.2018" said:

> > So, I play a lot of the style talked about in this thread. Just some quick light shedding and advice for fighting these types of thieves.

> >

> > First of all, know that the thief is toying with you. It's the thief's major function: to harass and hit and run. You hate it because it lasts 20 minutes, but the thief loves it because, against the right group of players, they can do it to you for _hours._ I only need one take down every 10 minutes or so to keep my WvW tracks capped out. To that end, I'm not actually trying to kill _most of you._ I just need to find that one guy who's level 70 in Greens and farm him while ya'll try your best to stop me. It's hilarious and enjoyable.

> >

> > A quick bit about how the stealth works. There are a couple of different builds, but most rely on the same handful of tricks:

> > -Cloak and Dagger, which is done by offhand dagger skill #5. It isn't very initiative efficient and gets blocked by Aegis and prevents the stealth, so Guardians make this tough with Aegis sharing. You can also dodge roll the animation and we whiff.

> > -Heal skill. IIRC, most players use Hide in Shadows which has a lengthy cast animation you can interrupt. Personally I use a traited Withdraw, which is harder to interract with.

> > -Smoke field from either offhand pistol #5 or a utility skill and then using Heartseeker through it. Either the thief is dropping a utility skill to take a long cooldown blind field or projectile blocker, which means less burst, or they're using even more Initative on a P/D combo for #5->#2.

> > -Shadow Refuge. Not all thieves take this because more and more people are taking powerful AoEs for Zerg fighting. Your mileage may vary, but, general wisdom, is to knock/pull them out of it and they get insta-revealed.

> > -F1 stealing with Shadow Arts. Honestly, this is the king of 1vXing. It's a full on reposition tool with stealth built in that I will often target another Thief to get another tool to vanish again. Paired with Shadowstep's two blinks and CC breakers, this makes us a real pain. I will be in, then out, then in, then in again, then out then in then out.

> >

> > The first rule of fighting these types of thieves is to realize what build you're up against. Generally, you run into either a D/P power build, or a P/D condition build. There are D/D builds that either go full-power-oneshot, usually given away by Basilisk Venom on their bar, or D/D condi-evasion builds which are troll and can be given away by either Sigil of Malice, or small caltrop AoEs popping up when they dodge. Knowing which type of thief you're fighting is half the battle! (bonus: Deadeyes don't _generally_ want to 1vX, they want to 1v1 and make you explode, same with any variant of P/P whether Daredevil or Classic who want to be backline DPS as you fight their friends).

> >

> > Another bonus trick: Especially don't fight us just East of Dredge near SMC or near some of the Boderland Shrines. We can use Longbow #5 to do terrain jumps up cliffs and the likes in certain places which makes us extra slippery.

> >

> > A well played LB Druid, or various styles of Guardians/Eles can make our life pretty tough. Aegis does a good of stopping both backstab builds as well as condi Cloak and Dagger restealths. I cannot stress how annoying Aegis can be. It's a long cooldown for one player, but if ya'll are a 5man party or squaded up, condi builds can't easily target swap to CnD the nearest guy since every person has an Aegis I have to first pop before we can restealth. Generally, the tankier you are and the more condi cleanse you bring, the less likely a thief will even bother with you. You become the bait to spawn Orange Swords and bring those eager new players for us to farm.

> >

> > Also, bring CC and try to catch us at the end of a dodgeroll.

> >

> > TL;DR:

> >

> > If you're fighting a thief for more than 5 minutes, it's because the thief likes it. Go find something better to do.

> >

> >

>

> Back during HoT I kited at least 10 players around their EBG keep for 20 minutes until I got bored.

>

> That was back when Daredevil was busted levels of mobility with no Exhaustion mechanic, and the sentries didn’t have marked either.

>

> The point is, people will be tunnel visioned on finishing a thief, but that won’t help. Play as a team and the thief won’t be able to win. As a Deadeye who takes 1v3s my goal is to split you up and make you lose sight of where I am until suddenly one of you goes down and I’m there to stomp before anyone can stop me. It’s not that I’m OP, it’s that stealth creates opportunities for mind games.

>

> @"Teratus.2859" Please forgive forum thieves for not being entirely forgiving ourselves. Every single thief has likely been whispered things that can’t be repeated here on account of our profession. We are a little wary of people making overly broad statements about us for that reason.

 

I get that no worries, I'm not a fan of that kind of behaviour either, though I do enjoy banter and a bit of hazing.. abuse though is a line too far.

I get anger, I'm no stranger to it and venting is something I do often to relieve stress and pent up frustration when something really gets on my nerves lol

 

But I avoid just attacking someone who kittens me off, if anything all mouthing off at someone does is tell them that they beat you so badly it triggered you to have a meltdown. xD

It's pretty much the most difinitive confirmation that they didn't just beat you, they utterly destroyed you.

It's why I personally take negative abuse like that as a sort of twisted complement.. it amuses me sometimes, but not everyone can take it that way, and sometimes I'm not in the mood for it either.

 

What you describe there with your Deadeye tactic "stealth creates opportunities for mind games" is one of the reasons I've criticized stealth so much due to very limited access to counters like reveal.

Just saying you play that way proves that there are what some of us would call stealth abuse/overuse playstyles which is exactly the kind of thing i've had multiple thief players tell me "doesnt happen" or even "can't happen".

 

I've fought many players who use a lot of stealth, you freely admit it's a playstyle you enjoy too which is fine, so it does get annoying when people use their experiences to criticize mostly the stealth mechanic and just get met with a backlash of thief players telling them, that doesn't happen or just outright accusing them of making stuff up.

Considering how many people have voiced these similar experiences and criticisms then all that kind of invalidation does is make people suspicious that highly defensive players are hiding/protecting something they know to be broken.. if nobody used stealth as they claim then why do they defend it so aggressively?

That's what the critics take away from that behaviour.. and if anything that fuels the nerf thief threads more.

 

I don't actually hate the thief class either, I just really dislike the in combat stealth aspect of it in competitive modes, WvW specifically since I don't care for SPvP.

I'd much rather see the class buffed and made a capable high skill based evasive dueler and have stealth take the big hit instead, but only in combat.

I've voiced that opinion many times but despite agreeing with people that thief could use the buff, I mostly just get comments claiming I hate the class etc

 

Hell one of the 3 new builds I made recently and am looking forward to playing is a Daredevil, I wouldn't have made it if I hated the class.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Vecuu.2018" said:

> We can use Longbow #5 to do terrain jumps up cliffs

Frikkin longbow thieves, they are the worst. Even worse than hammer thieves.

[Leo.5829]

You don't. Thief really does one thing: win 1 v 1 or disengage when he doesn't. They are the best at roaming by a longshot. You will not kill a thief that doesn't misplay. The only thing against thief in wvw you can do is walk in groups and deny him kills (in which case the thief becomes useless).

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Vashuddha.1538" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > This post looks like an excuse to use all of the usual nerf thief soundbites and you're overselling it. If it's backstab, you know what their position will be and you can auto someone while they're in stealth. If it's Death's Judgement you can counter them before they hit you. Your imaginary thief wasn't doing all of those things in one build constantly, if they could, more people would be playing them in blobs. My suggestion is, do what your imaginary thief was doing by staying calm and working on your build.

>

> Being condescending and arrogant is definitely not the way to go in order to achieve whatever you're trying to achieve here.**To expect someone who has absolutely no knowledge about the class to foresee whatever a thief plans to do when he's invisible is quite shortsighted and just plain stupid** The only thing predictive here is the autocratic toxic people who just can't seem to express themselves in a civil manner whenever someone brings up an issue that revolves around their class, and no matter how eloquent someones approach is there's always that one guy who just seems to be the Michael Jordan of being complete ***hole. You bring nothing to the table. Utterly distasteful. Goodbye.

 

That's 1 of the main problem's, if not THE problem . You admit you dont know what you are dealing with. Play and learn it.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Vecuu.2018" said:

> > > So, I play a lot of the style talked about in this thread. Just some quick light shedding and advice for fighting these types of thieves.

> > >

> > > First of all, know that the thief is toying with you. It's the thief's major function: to harass and hit and run. You hate it because it lasts 20 minutes, but the thief loves it because, against the right group of players, they can do it to you for _hours._ I only need one take down every 10 minutes or so to keep my WvW tracks capped out. To that end, I'm not actually trying to kill _most of you._ I just need to find that one guy who's level 70 in Greens and farm him while ya'll try your best to stop me. It's hilarious and enjoyable.

> > >

> > > A quick bit about how the stealth works. There are a couple of different builds, but most rely on the same handful of tricks:

> > > -Cloak and Dagger, which is done by offhand dagger skill #5. It isn't very initiative efficient and gets blocked by Aegis and prevents the stealth, so Guardians make this tough with Aegis sharing. You can also dodge roll the animation and we whiff.

> > > -Heal skill. IIRC, most players use Hide in Shadows which has a lengthy cast animation you can interrupt. Personally I use a traited Withdraw, which is harder to interract with.

> > > -Smoke field from either offhand pistol #5 or a utility skill and then using Heartseeker through it. Either the thief is dropping a utility skill to take a long cooldown blind field or projectile blocker, which means less burst, or they're using even more Initative on a P/D combo for #5->#2.

> > > -Shadow Refuge. Not all thieves take this because more and more people are taking powerful AoEs for Zerg fighting. Your mileage may vary, but, general wisdom, is to knock/pull them out of it and they get insta-revealed.

> > > -F1 stealing with Shadow Arts. Honestly, this is the king of 1vXing. It's a full on reposition tool with stealth built in that I will often target another Thief to get another tool to vanish again. Paired with Shadowstep's two blinks and CC breakers, this makes us a real pain. I will be in, then out, then in, then in again, then out then in then out.

> > >

> > > The first rule of fighting these types of thieves is to realize what build you're up against. Generally, you run into either a D/P power build, or a P/D condition build. There are D/D builds that either go full-power-oneshot, usually given away by Basilisk Venom on their bar, or D/D condi-evasion builds which are troll and can be given away by either Sigil of Malice, or small caltrop AoEs popping up when they dodge. Knowing which type of thief you're fighting is half the battle! (bonus: Deadeyes don't _generally_ want to 1vX, they want to 1v1 and make you explode, same with any variant of P/P whether Daredevil or Classic who want to be backline DPS as you fight their friends).

> > >

> > > Another bonus trick: Especially don't fight us just East of Dredge near SMC or near some of the Boderland Shrines. We can use Longbow #5 to do terrain jumps up cliffs and the likes in certain places which makes us extra slippery.

> > >

> > > A well played LB Druid, or various styles of Guardians/Eles can make our life pretty tough. Aegis does a good of stopping both backstab builds as well as condi Cloak and Dagger restealths. I cannot stress how annoying Aegis can be. It's a long cooldown for one player, but if ya'll are a 5man party or squaded up, condi builds can't easily target swap to CnD the nearest guy since every person has an Aegis I have to first pop before we can restealth. Generally, the tankier you are and the more condi cleanse you bring, the less likely a thief will even bother with you. You become the bait to spawn Orange Swords and bring those eager new players for us to farm.

> > >

> > > Also, bring CC and try to catch us at the end of a dodgeroll.

> > >

> > > TL;DR:

> > >

> > > If you're fighting a thief for more than 5 minutes, it's because the thief likes it. Go find something better to do.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Back during HoT I kited at least 10 players around their EBG keep for 20 minutes until I got bored.

> >

> > That was back when Daredevil was busted levels of mobility with no Exhaustion mechanic, and the sentries didn’t have marked either.

> >

> > The point is, people will be tunnel visioned on finishing a thief, but that won’t help. Play as a team and the thief won’t be able to win. As a Deadeye who takes 1v3s my goal is to split you up and make you lose sight of where I am until suddenly one of you goes down and I’m there to stomp before anyone can stop me. It’s not that I’m OP, it’s that stealth creates opportunities for mind games.

> >

> > @"Teratus.2859" Please forgive forum thieves for not being entirely forgiving ourselves. Every single thief has likely been whispered things that can’t be repeated here on account of our profession. We are a little wary of people making overly broad statements about us for that reason.

>

> I get that no worries, I'm not a fan of that kind of behaviour either, though I do enjoy banter and a bit of hazing.. abuse though is a line too far.

> I get anger, I'm no stranger to it and venting is something I do often to relieve stress and pent up frustration when something really gets on my nerves lol

>

> But I avoid just attacking someone who kittens me off, if anything all mouthing off at someone does is tell them that they beat you so badly it triggered you to have a meltdown. xD

> It's pretty much the most difinitive confirmation that they didn't just beat you, they utterly destroyed you.

> It's why I personally take negative abuse like that as a sort of twisted complement.. it amuses me sometimes, but not everyone can take it that way, and sometimes I'm not in the mood for it either.

>

> What you describe there with your Deadeye tactic "stealth creates opportunities for mind games" is one of the reasons I've criticized stealth so much due to very limited access to counters like reveal.

> Just saying you play that way proves that there are what some of us would call stealth abuse/overuse playstyles which is exactly the kind of thing i've had multiple thief players tell me "doesnt happen" or even "can't happen".

>

> I've fought many players who use a lot of stealth, you freely admit it's a playstyle you enjoy too which is fine, so it does get annoying when people use their experiences to criticize mostly the stealth mechanic and just get met with a backlash of thief players telling them, that doesn't happen or just outright accusing them of making stuff up.

> Considering how many people have voiced these similar experiences and criticisms then all that kind of invalidation does is make people suspicious that highly defensive players are hiding/protecting something they know to be broken.. if nobody used stealth as they claim then why do they defend it so aggressively?

> That's what the critics take away from that behaviour.. and if anything that fuels the nerf thief threads more.

>

> I don't actually hate the thief class either, I just really dislike the in combat stealth aspect of it in competitive modes, WvW specifically since I don't care for SPvP.

> I'd much rather see the class buffed and made a capable high skill based evasive dueler and have stealth take the big hit instead, but only in combat.

> I've voiced that opinion many times but despite agreeing with people that thief could use the buff, I mostly just get comments claiming I hate the class etc

>

> Hell one of the 3 new builds I made recently and am looking forward to playing is a Daredevil, I wouldn't have made it if I hated the class.

 

What I mean by mind games is more like:

 

* I’m moving right, I stealth and move left.

* Or I’m being chased and shortbow 5 900 units away and Shadowstep. Now I’m 2100 units away and the enemy chases me, before they reach me I stealth and Shadow Return then shortbow 5 twice. Now I’m 3000 units in the opposite direction and may still be stealthed as I keep running away and adding more distance. Stealth helps but isn’t really necessary to pull off that kind of kiting.

* Or I’m fighting 1v3 and down one and draw the other two away from the body before stealthing and teleporting back for a quick stomp before they notice they should have been helping the downed player.

 

In that case stealth is a way to temporarily cover my tracks so I can outmaneuver them. A good thief will feel like you never know where they are. An inexperienced thief you will know where they are and half the time they will pop up downed.

[Crazy.6029]

> @"Vashuddha.1538" said:

> I consider myself to be a decent player. I mainly play Guardian and Warrior, and find myself to do quite well against any class, except for thieves. Recently in WvW, and quite often, it's not uncommon to see a group of 3-4 players fighting of ONE Thief, and engagements such as these can last up for at least 20 minuets, if not more, and it usually ends up with players becoming lenient and fed up doing their best to avoid any further confrontation with them. My intention is not commence a heated discussion on whether thieves needs some mechanical adjustments or not, who sucks and who doesn't, but based on my own experience I can't help to think that something needs to change, or perhaps is there a way to counter the thief's ridiculous capabilities?

>

> The thief can instantly, and for an unknown extended period of time render themselves completely invisible, and they seem to be able to do this in intervals that is beyond my comprehension. I am aware that there is a certain time limit for stealthing, but being able to calculate when and where they are going to attack is just incomprehensible. The constant stealth, and instant teleports to an enemy location combined with insane burst damage forces you to pop CDs almost instantly, and they seem to be capable of doing so for what seems to be forever.. It's practically impossible to even calculate where their next position might be, and whenever they decide to attack you're left with a nanosecond to respond and it makes it virtually impossible to counter it. You might get lucky and get a few hits here and there, and perhaps even reach their given location, but it doesn't take long before they stealth again and BOOM - game over. As a warrior the only ability you have to break stealth (if you're not running Spellbreaker build) is "On My Mark", but the advantages are insignificant, and the only real possible solution is to spam a bunch of skills in hopes that you might be able to hit them unknowingly while they're stealthed. This even leaves you in a deeper state of hopelessness due to most of your skills being on CD before the fight has even lasted 10 seconds. Their constant evades and their insane mobility just makes it kitten near impossible to keep up with them, and the only way for you to defeat them is if they mess up, or so it seems. Anyone who would argue that thieves are underpowered or broken has never met a thief that knows his or her way around, and it is perfectly understandable that people who play them would try to discredit this, but this is just my experience.

>

> Is it possible that anyone who manages to reach a certain skill level as a thief is capable of reaching a peak of insane "god mode", and that the possible broken mechanics become more apparent? I would assume that if a class is capable of kiting and easily pick apart a group of players in such fashion is a clear indication that the thieves are in a unfair advantage (?) The level of frustration while going up against a thief seems unnecessary and completely ruins the fun in WvW. It just seems to take an insane amount of brain power to handle them. I do wish to stress the fact that this is based on MY personal experience and if you don't agree then that's fine, but I'm certain that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Would love to hear some feedback, and if you're a thief, feel free to share some of your secrets ;)

>

> All the best.

>

>

>

>

 

If this is really a cry for help then here is some of the best advice you will get. Play a thief for a while. Not just make one and go pve, actually make one and go roam or hang around some zergs and pick off stragglers. Do that til you feel that you are decent at it. Then you will understand that thieves aren't the gods or villains that everyone makes them out to be. In fact they aren't in a very good spot balance wise right now. You will also understand that they have weaknesses and how to survive them very easily if you want to put in the effort. Hope this helps.

[mikdepadua.8376]

> @"Crazy.6029" said:

> > @"Vashuddha.1538" said:

> > I consider myself to be a decent player. I mainly play Guardian and Warrior, and find myself to do quite well against any class, except for thieves. Recently in WvW, and quite often, it's not uncommon to see a group of 3-4 players fighting of ONE Thief, and engagements such as these can last up for at least 20 minuets, if not more, and it usually ends up with players becoming lenient and fed up doing their best to avoid any further confrontation with them. My intention is not commence a heated discussion on whether thieves needs some mechanical adjustments or not, who sucks and who doesn't, but based on my own experience I can't help to think that something needs to change, or perhaps is there a way to counter the thief's ridiculous capabilities?

> >

> > The thief can instantly, and for an unknown extended period of time render themselves completely invisible, and they seem to be able to do this in intervals that is beyond my comprehension. I am aware that there is a certain time limit for stealthing, but being able to calculate when and where they are going to attack is just incomprehensible. The constant stealth, and instant teleports to an enemy location combined with insane burst damage forces you to pop CDs almost instantly, and they seem to be capable of doing so for what seems to be forever.. It's practically impossible to even calculate where their next position might be, and whenever they decide to attack you're left with a nanosecond to respond and it makes it virtually impossible to counter it. You might get lucky and get a few hits here and there, and perhaps even reach their given location, but it doesn't take long before they stealth again and BOOM - game over. As a warrior the only ability you have to break stealth (if you're not running Spellbreaker build) is "On My Mark", but the advantages are insignificant, and the only real possible solution is to spam a bunch of skills in hopes that you might be able to hit them unknowingly while they're stealthed. This even leaves you in a deeper state of hopelessness due to most of your skills being on CD before the fight has even lasted 10 seconds. Their constant evades and their insane mobility just makes it kitten near impossible to keep up with them, and the only way for you to defeat them is if they mess up, or so it seems. Anyone who would argue that thieves are underpowered or broken has never met a thief that knows his or her way around, and it is perfectly understandable that people who play them would try to discredit this, but this is just my experience.

> >

> > Is it possible that anyone who manages to reach a certain skill level as a thief is capable of reaching a peak of insane "god mode", and that the possible broken mechanics become more apparent? I would assume that if a class is capable of kiting and easily pick apart a group of players in such fashion is a clear indication that the thieves are in a unfair advantage (?) The level of frustration while going up against a thief seems unnecessary and completely ruins the fun in WvW. It just seems to take an insane amount of brain power to handle them. I do wish to stress the fact that this is based on MY personal experience and if you don't agree then that's fine, but I'm certain that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Would love to hear some feedback, and if you're a thief, feel free to share some of your secrets ;)

> >

> > All the best.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> If this is really a cry for help then here is some of the best advice you will get. Play a thief for a while. Not just make one and go pve, actually make one and go roam or hang around some zergs and pick off stragglers. Do that til you feel that you are decent at it. Then you will understand that thieves aren't the gods or villains that everyone makes them out to be. In fact they aren't in a very good spot balance wise right now. You will also understand that they have weaknesses and how to survive them very easily if you want to put in the effort. Hope this helps.

 

This applies to any class you’re having problems with, really. If you’re too lazy to bring them to wvw, spvp is fine imo.

[Chips.7968]

> @"Vashuddha.1538" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > This post looks like an excuse to use all of the usual nerf thief soundbites and you're overselling it. If it's backstab, you know what their position will be and you can auto someone while they're in stealth. If it's Death's Judgement you can counter them before they hit you. Your imaginary thief wasn't doing all of those things in one build constantly, if they could, more people would be playing them in blobs. My suggestion is, do what your imaginary thief was doing by staying calm and working on your build.

>

> Being condescending and arrogant is definitely not the way to go in order to achieve whatever you're trying to achieve here. To expect someone who has absolutely no knowledge about the class to foresee whatever a thief plans to do when he's invisible is quite shortsighted and just plain stupid. The only thing predictive here is the autocratic toxic people who just can't seem to express themselves in a civil manner whenever someone brings up an issue that revolves around their class, and no matter how eloquent someones approach is there's always that one guy who just seems to be the Michael Jordan of being complete ***hole. You bring nothing to the table. Utterly distasteful. Goodbye.

 

Being condescending or arrogant doesn't mean they're wrong or don't have a point. From this point you've just basically said "I don't know thief class" yet expect to win against it?

 

Do you want to be told how to win? Should you be able to win against every class without understanding their builds/skills/traits? As said repeatedly, if you want to know what the thief is thinking... play the class and try it. Don't immediately assume it's an unfair class.

[killahmayne.9518]

Thief is one of those classes that might seem broken when seeing them, but that's usually because the said person has never played a thief before. Once you play a thief you will fully understand their strengths and their weaknesses. So that's my first suggestion.

 

Second thing is how you deal with a thief seriously depends on the build they are running. However Guardians in general counter thieves so I'm not sure how you would struggle so hard against one. Especially if you run Dragonhunter. Warrior also isn't bad for dealing with thieves, especially if you run Magebane Tether on a stealthy thief. Also most thieves are really squishy. As far as power builds ...

 

D/D builds kinda suck right now in general but with the amount of blocks and blinds a guardian has basically nullifies this build. Backstab damage is also laughably bad for how hard it is to setup. Usually CnD will be their main source of stealth. However it is a high initiative skill, requires you to be right on top of the person to land. The backstab is also fairly predictable because the stealth from CnD only lasts a certain amount of time AND they will try to aim behind you.

 

S/D might be a bit harder but this build I find is pretty rare. They are generally less bursty but a lot more mobility. Same thing generally is that they kinda rely on that CnD to to set up their damage. Larcenous strike chain is their strongest skill but you can easily avoid it and can be a huge initiative sink.

 

D/P is annoying as well but usually they are more annoying than anything and can stall a fight infinitely. Only thing you have to watch out for is backstab really. Black powder also takes a lot of initiative so they will have periods where they are doing zero damage and can't stealth. Capitalize there. Wouldn't necessarily call it a strong build just mostly annoying.

 

Staff build I feel like is the most versatile but the most straight forward to deal with. They don't really have any gimmicks but can deal some reliable damage and the blinds are annoying. Probably a bit tankier as well but kind of predictable and telegraphed. Also lack sustain as with most thief builds.

 

Can't really comment much on Deadeye or Condi thief builds. Some of the condi builds are pretty aids though from what i've experienced. I think you just need to pick up the thief for yourself to understand how to play against one. They aren't some godly character and most builds are highly punishing if you mess up with your cooldowns and positioning and miss a heavy initiative skill.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

If it's WvW, a lot of people are hacking on permastealth builds because it's hard to report them and most people don't understand the class well enough to know (and can't visibly see their cooldown/teleport hacks etc.) if it's even happening or not.

 

It's also just one of the classes you have to learn a lot about in order to beat. Once you learn its nuances, it's pitifully easy to kill 95% of the time, and actually quite predictable (the biggest bane of the thief is the player that knows what it's going to do next). Only players that are strictly better than you will style on you, or if your build is very aggressively-countered by theirs.

 

Generally-speaking, thief/warrior matchup favors warrior, though it can be pretty close depending on a lot of circumstances. Guardian gets sketchy depending on builds. S/D should win against most, rifle DE is kinda neutral (DH > DE > FB) whereas MH dagger should lose into most guardian matchups in the current game state due to passive Aegis.

 

Until you show something like gameplay footage, I can't provide a lot of suggestions just because I don't know where you're going wrong. Also, don't be accusatory if you're asking for advice. Generally speaking, the better players on this subforum are helpful, but the class has been unjustifiably nerfed so many times because of people complaining about the wrong subjects with the class instead of asking for help that the thief community is quick to dismiss complaints by inexperienced thieves. If you're just here to complain or want a quick fix, there's really no helping you because beating a thief is all about becoming the better player.

 

Play the class for a while in the competitive modes and analyze your gameplay, what is and isn't working, what situations you're being forced into or forcing your opponent into in order to win or lose, and re-apply those to your mains. Try the different weapons and trait lines. Or post a video of you dying asking what to do. To beat thieves (and play them well), you need to put yourself in your enemy's position and break down your wins and losses as to what you're doing correctly and incorrectly. You'll realize pretty quickly the thief isn't that strong.

[Chips.7968]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> If it's WvW, a lot of people are hacking on permastealth builds because it's hard to report them

 

Sorry, what??

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Chips.7968" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > If it's WvW, a lot of people are hacking on permastealth builds because it's hard to report them

>

> Sorry, what??

>

 

Wvw is very bad for hacks these days. If u pay attention ull see wars or rangers teleporting during fights, thieves that never recieve the revealed state during a fight, players that's hp magically fills instantly when a certain hp is reached, evade hack where they are in a evade frame ever couple sec during a fight, perma swiftness or movement speed increase hacks etc. There's tons of vids showing these and under map exploits but action against these players is rarely taken. U can simply google gw2 hacks and multiple options are available to u lol. I couldn't imagine resorting and taking the time to hack such a casual non serious pvp as gw2 is let alone any game really, takes all kinds of people to make the world go round I guess lol.