Deadeye kneeling

[Bast.7253]

Does anyone like this mechanic? It's always felt kind of clunky to me and the uniqueness of it doesn't really seem to outweigh the fact that it makes the spec inconvenient in nearly all game modes.

 

If you had the option would you keep it the way it is or try to get the separate skills baked into one? Other than the velocity increase and curtain on skill 4, what's really the benefit of it anyway?

[Trollocks.5084]

It's only ever good if you can guarantee you don't need to move much, which, in an action MMO, seems like a complete contradiction.

[rdigeri.7935]

You do get additional vulnerability stacks on the autoattack, immob on Spotter's Shot, more damage on Three Round Burst, and up till july 10 2018 kneeling also granted increased critical hit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Silent_Scope/history , though this doesn't matter now.

 

Personally i like the idea of it, this "bunkering down" where you need to think ahead whether it's safe and appropriate to do so, but i do feel like it's somewhat lackluster in terms of being engaging.

 

What i find more problematic however is the weapon's lack of stealth access without the use of combo fields. Shouldn't rely on Silent Scope (which by the way is quite uninteractive in pvp) to use stealth skills often (which is the motto of the spec)

 

I could see one of the rifle skills reworked into a skill similar to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot

[Roche.7491]

Buff kneeling by adding permaSTEALTH like a true sniper.

[ASP.8093]

I think it's a messy but interesting mechanic for PvE, where you basically get a pretty juicy DPS boost if you can let someone else hold aggro, and you can still easily dodge roll to get out of nasty open-world boss AOEs.

 

In WvW/SPvP, however:

• You lose access to Skirmisher's Shot, which is your only efficient DPS skill and Malice-builder. (Spotter's Shot can be useful support in the form of immob spam, but you're reducing your own personal damage by over 50% at that point.)

• Three Round Burst is too expensive to use a lot of, and doesn't give you big Might stacks like in PvE.

• Sniper's Cover is clunky: 1. In a more fluid PvP fight, you really want to be standing *in* it rather than behind it, which means you need to Kneel-place-rise to relocate yourself 2 feet; 2. It's very easy to end up casting Death's Retreat instead of Sniper's Cover when time is of the essence or there's skill lag involved.

 

[Solanum.6983]

It sounds cool in theory but Deadeye as a whole is a complete miss for me.

I have to agree the kneeling mechanic is very clunky, I never use it because it's rarely ever beneficial to use in my experience. In WvW and PvP everyone's on the move constantly so even if you do get to a spot where you can kneel and snipe from, by the time you mark someone they evade and run out of range.

A long ranged sniper thief sounded amazing to me but when I finally gave it a go I was completely let down, It's great for perma stealth sneak attacks but the whole bunker sniper concept which it's based around rarely ever works.

[kash.9213]

I use Snipers Cover a lot. Either I'm covering someone or posting high up or at a corner and I'll reset a line forward or back for a group or squad to work around. I'll use it a lot also for blinds to siphon health and then I can roll over it if someone starts blasting me or Stealth off of it. I don't find it awkward or dangerous to us, I don't wast dodges often so I usually have one on hand.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Solanum.6983" said:

> It sounds cool in theory but Deadeye as a whole is a complete miss for me.

> I have to agree the kneeling mechanic is very clunky, I never use it because it's rarely ever beneficial to use in my experience. In WvW and PvP everyone's on the move constantly so even if you do get to a spot where you can kneel and snipe from, by the time you mark someone they evade and run out of range.

> A long ranged sniper thief sounded amazing to me but when I finally gave it a go I was completely let down, It's great for perma stealth sneak attacks but the whole bunker sniper concept which it's based around rarely ever works.

 

Then youre not using it right. Kneel + 4 for projectile block can make a big difference. Besides immob spamm from 2.. If you never make use of this you really dont play the spec right.

[Taril.8619]

The concept is neat.

 

The execution is terrible.

 

It being a toggled self-root is really clunky and makes it feel awful in all game modes (This is before you add in the fact that it outright nerfs you in PvP/WvW due to janky coefficients and init costs... Like pretty much everything Thief has these days...)

 

Honestly, for me, I think I'd prefer it if Kneel was a unique Thief weapon skill in that it had an actual cooldown and it would cause your next ability usage to become significantly more powerful. Meaning, it wouldn't mess with the flow of combat so much as you'd only Kneel for one shot every so often while the effects could also be more impactful.

[Bast.7253]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> The concept is neat.

>

> The execution is terrible.

>

> It being a toggled self-root is really clunky and makes it feel awful in all game modes (This is before you add in the fact that it outright nerfs you in PvP/WvW due to janky coefficients and init costs... Like pretty much everything Thief has these days...)

>

> Honestly, for me, I think I'd prefer it if Kneel was a unique Thief weapon skill in that it had an actual cooldown and it would cause your next ability usage to become significantly more powerful. Meaning, it wouldn't mess with the flow of combat so much as you'd only Kneel for one shot every so often while the effects could also be more impactful.

 

Oh, I do like that. Maybe having a utility instead of a weapon skill that has like 2 charges or something and empowers your weapon skill to do the kneeling equivalent and roots you until those abilities are finished? Like kneel - buff - skill 2 does immobalize, etc?

 

 

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"Roche.7491" said:

> Buff kneeling by adding permaSTEALTH like a true sniper.

 

i actually would love this and since i play PvE only it's not that bad. though i can imagine the PvP/WvW people would rage if this happened so the possibilities of such happening is.. impossible :)

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> The concept is neat.

>

> The execution is terrible.

>

> It being a toggled self-root is really clunky and makes it feel awful in all game modes (This is before you add in the fact that it outright nerfs you in PvP/WvW due to janky coefficients and init costs... Like pretty much everything Thief has these days...)

>

> Honestly, for me, I think I'd prefer it if Kneel was a unique Thief weapon skill in that it had an actual cooldown and it would cause your next ability usage to become significantly more powerful. Meaning, it wouldn't mess with the flow of combat so much as you'd only Kneel for one shot every so often while the effects could also be more impactful.

 

i do prefer if it was a stance or something that for it's duration, will root(kneel on) the user and execute the kneeled-version of the skill instead of the ordinary rifle skills and then unroot(kneel off) the user after the skill has finished (you can still dodge or whatever during this stance). this would be more like a QoL for rifle deadeyes so it would feel less clunky.

[UNOwen.7132]

Its bad. Not only does the "unable to move" thing outvalue extra range, especially since enemies can just step backwards and mess you up, the problem is that the kneeled skills are *worse*. The correct way of playing DE right now (for what that is worth) is to never kneel, and just spam skirmishing shot, since it does more damage than spotters shot. By a lot.

[kash.9213]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Its bad. Not only does the "unable to move" thing outvalue extra range, especially since enemies can just step backwards and mess you up, the problem is that the kneeled skills are *worse*. **The correct way of playing DE right now (for what that is worth) is to never kneel**, and just spam skirmishing shot, since it does more damage than spotters shot. By a lot.

 

Not going to say you're wrong, I just can't agree with that. The range on rifle is janky to begin with and that's the one problem I have with using Kneel, we still mostly have to be within someone zone so we can be responded to faster than if we had real range.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > Its bad. Not only does the "unable to move" thing outvalue extra range, especially since enemies can just step backwards and mess you up, the problem is that the kneeled skills are *worse*. **The correct way of playing DE right now (for what that is worth) is to never kneel**, and just spam skirmishing shot, since it does more damage than spotters shot. By a lot.

>

> Not going to say you're wrong, I just can't agree with that. The range on rifle is janky to begin with and that's the one problem I have with using Kneel, we still mostly have to be within someone zone so we can be responded to faster than if we had real range.

 

Yep, shots not hitting reliably at long range really does get annoying sometimes. Kinda miss cursed bullet.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

I actually found it godawful when I first tried out DE. It took me multiple games to get used to the mechanic, and it's still, at least IMO, so telegraphed it leaves you far too vulnerable in any meta where revenant and core guardian guardian are viable.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > Its bad. Not only does the "unable to move" thing outvalue extra range, especially since enemies can just step backwards and mess you up, the problem is that the kneeled skills are *worse*. **The correct way of playing DE right now (for what that is worth) is to never kneel**, and just spam skirmishing shot, since it does more damage than spotters shot. By a lot.

> >

> > Not going to say you're wrong, I just can't agree with that. The range on rifle is janky to begin with and that's the one problem I have with using Kneel, we still mostly have to be within someone zone so we can be responded to faster than if we had real range.

>

> Yep, shots not hitting reliably at long range really does get annoying sometimes. Kinda miss cursed bullet.

 

Cursed Bullet was a neat idea but I hated the weird pathing it ended up getting obstructed from terrain half the time.

 

Maybe they should have given DE two stealth attacks (one for kneel and one for standing) and made Cursed Bullet one of the two.

[necromaniac.7629]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> Does anyone like this mechanic? It's always felt kind of clunky to me and the uniqueness of it doesn't really seem to outweigh the fact that it makes the spec inconvenient in nearly all game modes.

>

> If you had the option would you keep it the way it is or try to get the separate skills baked into one? Other than the velocity increase and curtain on skill 4, what's really the benefit of it anyway?

 

well i think it feels clunky based on how fast you are, its clunky when use it but when i watch other people play it, they are smooth.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > Its bad. Not only does the "unable to move" thing outvalue extra range, especially since enemies can just step backwards and mess you up, the problem is that the kneeled skills are *worse*. **The correct way of playing DE right now (for what that is worth) is to never kneel**, and just spam skirmishing shot, since it does more damage than spotters shot. By a lot.

> > >

> > > Not going to say you're wrong, I just can't agree with that. The range on rifle is janky to begin with and that's the one problem I have with using Kneel, we still mostly have to be within someone zone so we can be responded to faster than if we had real range.

> >

> > Yep, shots not hitting reliably at long range really does get annoying sometimes. Kinda miss cursed bullet.

>

> Cursed Bullet was a neat idea but I hated the weird pathing it ended up getting obstructed from terrain half the time.

>

> *Maybe they should have given DE two stealth attacks (one for kneel and one for standing) and made Cursed Bullet one of the two.*

 

I would be fine with that tbh. I liked cursed bullet, but I found it more reliable than DJ is at max range, so maybe it is a matter of preference there. Your suggestion would be the best of both worlds for sure, and also give DE more boonrip which is never bad.

[kash.9213]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > Its bad. Not only does the "unable to move" thing outvalue extra range, especially since enemies can just step backwards and mess you up, the problem is that the kneeled skills are *worse*. **The correct way of playing DE right now (for what that is worth) is to never kneel**, and just spam skirmishing shot, since it does more damage than spotters shot. By a lot.

> > > >

> > > > Not going to say you're wrong, I just can't agree with that. The range on rifle is janky to begin with and that's the one problem I have with using Kneel, we still mostly have to be within someone zone so we can be responded to faster than if we had real range.

> > >

> > > Yep, shots not hitting reliably at long range really does get annoying sometimes. Kinda miss cursed bullet.

> >

> > Cursed Bullet was a neat idea but I hated the weird pathing it ended up getting obstructed from terrain half the time.

> >

> > *Maybe they should have given DE two stealth attacks (one for kneel and one for standing) and made Cursed Bullet one of the two.*

>

> I would be fine with that tbh. I liked cursed bullet, but I found it more reliable than DJ is at max range, so maybe it is a matter of preference there. Your suggestion would be the best of both worlds for sure, and also give DE more boonrip which is never bad.

 

If you time the sequence right like old version you could have Cursed Bullet curve in from one side and have the standing Stealth Attack and everything else roll in soon afterwards. That all could be too strong though now with current Silent Scope, Binding Shadow, and Shadow Meld. Old CB and BS timed to land one right after, both ripping stuff to open target up for the other, with whatever else rolling in with them were unassuming. Todays DE/SA build might get a little bursty but then, any amount of time before any of our stuff lands is a very long time for us.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > Its bad. Not only does the "unable to move" thing outvalue extra range, especially since enemies can just step backwards and mess you up, the problem is that the kneeled skills are *worse*. **The correct way of playing DE right now (for what that is worth) is to never kneel**, and just spam skirmishing shot, since it does more damage than spotters shot. By a lot.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not going to say you're wrong, I just can't agree with that. The range on rifle is janky to begin with and that's the one problem I have with using Kneel, we still mostly have to be within someone zone so we can be responded to faster than if we had real range.

> > > >

> > > > Yep, shots not hitting reliably at long range really does get annoying sometimes. Kinda miss cursed bullet.

> > >

> > > Cursed Bullet was a neat idea but I hated the weird pathing it ended up getting obstructed from terrain half the time.

> > >

> > > *Maybe they should have given DE two stealth attacks (one for kneel and one for standing) and made Cursed Bullet one of the two.*

> >

> > I would be fine with that tbh. I liked cursed bullet, but I found it more reliable than DJ is at max range, so maybe it is a matter of preference there. Your suggestion would be the best of both worlds for sure, and also give DE more boonrip which is never bad.

>

> If you time the sequence right like old version you could have Cursed Bullet curve in from one side and have the standing Stealth Attack and everything else roll in soon afterwards. That all could be too strong though now with current Silent Scope, Binding Shadow, and Shadow Meld. Old CB and BS timed to land one right after, both ripping stuff to open target up for the other, with whatever else rolling in with them were unassuming. Todays DE/SA build might get a little bursty but then, any amount of time before any of our stuff lands is a very long time for us.

 

Possibly. I used to cast cursed bullet then use three round burst so it all landed at once, made for a nice spike. It could be too strong combined with backstab etc now, but remember that you used to be able to spam DJ as long as you had the initiative as well, which if you timed for the end of the reflexive dodge people do once cursed bullet hit it was pretty effective. To be honest though, the spec has changed that much since the initial release it's hard to say how any revert would play out now.

 

Edit; it wouldn't actually be that bad using cursed bullet with any sneak attack now, assuming that cursed bullet when implemented also spent all your malice like current sneak attacks do, so the follow up malicious backstab/DJ would have noodle damage. Like I say, a lot has changed in the spec since release, it's not as straightforward as it first looks.

 

Edity edit; On topic, I don't have much of a problem with kneel in concept. The issue for me is that the kneel skills aren't as impactful as they could be, which is due in large part to DJ now being the sneak attack. Having DJ as kneel 4 gave kneel much more reward for the risk, and while it made the burst more clunky, honestly I think it worked better than it does now.

 

As things stand, three round burst is now trash so you only ever use 2 for malice and 4 for utility, whether you kneel or stand. Is that really a good use of an extra skill set on the weapon, when 1/2 of the skills (auto and two/three round burst) are almost never used? Sniper's cover is good, but it is utility, and if anything the standing skills should have the defensive utility and the kneel skills the damage pressure to give you some reason to use it.

 

If it was down to me, I would do something like put cursed bullet back on the sneak attack (it would do 3-6k damage depending on what you're hitting, rip boons based on malice, and use all malice on a hit), DJ would be kneel 4 (and it would still use all malice on a successful hit like it does now, so you have to choose between damage or boonrip for your malice spender), sniper's cover would be a small smokescreen field instead of a line and would be on standing 3 (I would probably also remove stealth on dodge, since you now have the smoke field combo on standing 3 & 4 skills) and kneel 3 would be something that does reasonable damage and/or a 2s stun if you mark the target within 3s of it hitting (so you can kneel 3, mark for the stun, then DJ for the kill). Sure, might be slightly OP and not very thought out (I did come up with this on the fly), but at least you'd feel like you had more skills than 2 for damage/malice and 4 for utility.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Ignore this, wrong button.

[DemonSeed.3528]

How would you guys feel if kneel was converted into a flip skill, changing the skills on rifle instead? Maybe more powerful attacks but less utility but able to be toggled freely between the two like engi mortar kit having no cd (you will still be able to move freely, just no deaths retreat in that mode but stronger attacks)

[kash.9213]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> How would you guys feel if kneel was converted into a flip skill, changing the skills on rifle instead? Maybe more powerful attacks but less utility but able to be toggled freely between the two like engi mortar kit having no cd (you will still be able to move freely, just no deaths retreat in that mode but stronger attacks)

 

I get why arrow and some other non rifle attacks can land on targets further, it's not the range but their trajectory or travel. Kneeling would be less dicey if Rifle could actually hit things that should be in range like the second floor SMC canons from below where even Shortbow and attacks like Dancing Dagger can hit. If I could post up and do something before getting piled on right away Kneeling would be fine and fair. I think a free moving power over utility toggle could be too strong with no cd and I don't know if you intend to have the max range Kneel gives or not. I'd be fine with a free moving toggle if it gave max range but put us in crouch or something and moved a little slower and kept Snipers Cover.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > How would you guys feel if kneel was converted into a flip skill, changing the skills on rifle instead? Maybe more powerful attacks but less utility but able to be toggled freely between the two like engi mortar kit having no cd (you will still be able to move freely, just no deaths retreat in that mode but stronger attacks)

>

> I get why arrow and some other non rifle attacks can land on targets further, it's not the range but their trajectory or travel. Kneeling would be less dicey if Rifle could actually hit things that should be in range like the second floor SMC canons from below where even Shortbow and attacks like Dancing Dagger can hit. If I could post up and do something before getting piled on right away Kneeling would be fine and fair. I think a free moving power over utility toggle could be too strong with no cd and I don't know if you intend to have the max range Kneel gives or not. I'd be fine with a free moving toggle if it gave max range but put us in crouch or something and moved a little slower and kept Snipers Cover.

 

Oh yeah I actually forgot about the extra stuff kneeling gives. I think kneel with slower movement would be nice actually without it rooting you. Would it be like having crippled/slow on your char while kneeling?

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > > How would you guys feel if kneel was converted into a flip skill, changing the skills on rifle instead? Maybe more powerful attacks but less utility but able to be toggled freely between the two like engi mortar kit having no cd (you will still be able to move freely, just no deaths retreat in that mode but stronger attacks)

> >

> > I get why arrow and some other non rifle attacks can land on targets further, it's not the range but their trajectory or travel. Kneeling would be less dicey if Rifle could actually hit things that should be in range like the second floor SMC canons from below where even Shortbow and attacks like Dancing Dagger can hit. If I could post up and do something before getting piled on right away Kneeling would be fine and fair. I think a free moving power over utility toggle could be too strong with no cd and I don't know if you intend to have the max range Kneel gives or not. I'd be fine with a free moving toggle if it gave max range but put us in crouch or something and moved a little slower and kept Snipers Cover.

>

> Oh yeah I actually forgot about the extra stuff kneeling gives. I think kneel with slower movement would be nice actually without it rooting you. Would it be like having crippled/slow on your char while kneeling?

 

Would be too strong. Kneel + 4 for projectile block ( 5 sec ) can have a high uptime ( you could keep the projectile block up Forever if all you do is press 1 and 4 ) if you dont spamm away init but being able to be semi-mobile with projectile hate up and able to spamm immob seems a bit off knowing you can combo this with elite whirl aswell. You only really manually kneel down for these 2 effects,otherwise you auto 1 from stealth which kneels and gets you up automatically.