How to counter perma-stealth 4-shot-kill rifle deadeye?

[solemn.9608]

Since whenever I whine about unbalanced game mechanics I receive the response of "just learn how to counter it, you got outplayed" ....

 

A deadeye opens with a large burst, I'll estimate 7k from a few hits. I react, playing a glassy barrier-weaver build (although this makes little to no difference, so telling me to change my build isn't going to help since I've vs this build on pretty much every viable weaver build already, and even full cele drops nearly instantly to this thief build), so I pop like 8k barrier (Weaver rune) and start healing up to nearly full health. I use mobility to get closer and manage to crit for ~6.5k, then get a few small crits in, leaving him with little health, 20-30% roughly. While I did that, he got my health back to half by ?autoattacking?. He goes into stealth for over 7 seconds and all I can do is attack randomly, which I do ... until he re-appears and stuns me, proceeding to do over 10k damage (through barrier) with ?AUTO ATTACKS? in any case he does not run out of initiative if he is not using autoattacks, and they all hit absurdly high. I assume, since there is no way that this game could be _that_ unbalanced, that this burst will .... end, at some point. It does not! I dive into nearby water and use my water heal, stun him with the underwater static field skill as I'm coming back onto land and again I manage to get him down to very low health with a good Plasma Burst + Fire Grab / Lightning Whip / Primordial. What's he do? Stealth for a long period of time, comes back full health, and...

 

Repeatedly

""bursts"" (they look like regular attacks, and he certainly has a near-endless supply of them)

me

to

death

With 4k+ hits in rapid succession that do not end

 

After he already did the same thing 12 seconds ago, give-or-take

 

Nearly endless burst, very quick, very powerful, it's right off cooldown whenever he wants to use it again, very ""tanky"" build because he can just stealth and leave/mobilize anytime he wants, and does not need to risk almost anything at all vs a full melee class, and probably anything else except a glassy mesmer/soulbeast.

 

Aside from "your build just can't counter it", what advice would you be willing to give to fight this build?

[kash.9213]

> @"solemn.9608" said:

> Since whenever I whine about unbalanced game mechanics I receive the response of "just learn how to counter it, you got outplayed" ....

>

> A deadeye opens with a large burst, I'll estimate 7k from a few hits. I react, playing a glassy barrier-weaver build (although this makes little to no difference, so telling me to change my build isn't going to help since I've vs this build on pretty much every viable weaver build already, and even full cele drops nearly instantly to this thief build), so I pop like 8k barrier (Weaver rune) and start healing up to nearly full health. I use mobility to get closer and manage to crit for ~6.5k, then get a few small crits in, leaving him with little health, 20-30% roughly. While I did that, he got my health back to half by ?autoattacking?. He goes into stealth for over 7 seconds and all I can do is attack randomly, which I do ... until he re-appears and stuns me, proceeding to do over 10k damage (through barrier) with ?AUTO ATTACKS? in any case he does not run out of initiative if he is not using autoattacks, and they all hit absurdly high. I assume, since there is no way that this game could be _that_ unbalanced, that this burst will .... end, at some point. It does not! I dive into nearby water and use my water heal, stun him with the underwater static field skill as I'm coming back onto land and again I manage to get him down to very low health with a good Plasma Burst + Fire Grab / Lightning Whip / Primordial. What's he do? Stealth for a long period of time, comes back full health, and...

>

> Repeatedly

> ""bursts"" (they look like regular attacks, and he certainly has a near-endless supply of them)

> me

> to

> death

> With 4k+ hits in rapid succession that do not end

>

> After he already did the same thing 12 seconds ago, give-or-take

>

> Nearly endless burst, very quick, very powerful, it's right off cooldown whenever he wants to use it again, very ""tanky"" build because he can just stealth and leave/mobilize anytime he wants, and does not need to risk almost anything at all vs a full melee class, and probably anything else except a glassy mesmer/soulbeast.

>

> **Aside from "your build just can't counter it", what advice would you be willing to give to fight this build?**

 

Ask them what their build is or find out.

Stealth isn't tanking.

You might be feeling a skill hitting you like Pistol Whip or something that might look like auto attack with quickness if you don't know it.

Set camera pan speed to max and always look around your area, pie corners before being an open target, and check horizons and flanking angles behind and to the sides of you while you're traveling, you can sometimes evade opening skills, utilities, etc like Binding Shadow or you can unexpectedly open on the them first and lock them down before they can react or at least cause panic which is easier to deal with.

[Teratus.2859]

Reveal is about the only thing I've found that's useful against stealthing players but Deadeyes can remove it and most classes don't have access to it and less have access to reliable forms of it.

Lots of stuns/immobs can also be useful but Thieves do seem to have a lot of counter to that.

 

I've always hated stealth in this games competitive modes since Gw2 came out 8 years ago.

Imo it's a cheap mechanic that is easy to abuse and it limit's thief's potential to pretty much annoying cheap builds that suck at most everything else.

I blame this for thief being lackluster in most other areas of the game too.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

you know, there are only two ways to fix this:

either remove stealth

or

lower thief damage by 90%

 

even when the game released, people were pointing out how utterly broken stealth and thief damage were. ANET never listened.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Well as an ele you have magnetic aura as an option. Run that instead if you haven't tried it yet. Rune of earth is useful to ward off the initial burst of deadeye and Soulbeast.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

I made a post, i believe in the profession section, that will give you a detailed answer. Go look that up. But to sum-up a couple points... but firstly, what wvw server are you on? I'm assuming to are referring to playing wvw due to DEs kinda suck in pvp, and if you are on mine or playing against mine, i can meet up with you and help. If not, i can still meet you elsewhere in game, just PM me. I can show you some stuff that can't be explained by writing as easily.

 

1) Come to terms with the fact that gw2 builds typically work in a rock-paper-scissors format and you just have to come to terms with...i know a lot of people don't want to believe it and want to believe their build has an equal chance to win against every other build but that's not how it works (not sayingthis is the case for you). No build will be able to dominate every other build in the game and will have counters. If you build to fight against melee classes, you will be worse against ranged. Build to fight face tanks and blocking builds, and you will be worse against high mobility and stealth builds. Build to be good against condi, you will be at a disadvantage against raw power. The list goes on.

 

2) weaver (or any ele) just isn't as great anymore after being nerfed a bit too much... tho it's still very fun to play so don't let that stop you. Just know that you fight an uphill battle against good pvp builds, tho definitely not all. Sadly for you, i typically see Weavers as free kills. But i have run until a very small number specced specifically for thieves and was killed by one or two. Also Weavers have successfully ran away from me (i could use shortbow to catch up but I'd have no initiative left).

 

3) really learn the weaknesses of thieves. There are many. If you learn the nuances... just how much stealth they have and know what skills they are putting in cd to extend it, you will have a good advantage. I explained this in my other post i mentioned so don't want to retype everything here. But realize if they are stealthing for long periods of time, they are blowing a lot of skills and initiative to do it.

 

4) some matchup info for you: rifle DEs will kill necros almost everytime due to their lack of mobility and defense being in a timer that can be waited out (shroud), with no blocks. Necros should be able to kill d/p and d/d thieves without too much trouble. d/p and d/d can kill DE most times easily because they have higher burst while revealed whereas DE can be thought of as sustain. Unfortunately for you, i also find eles fairly easy to kill for the same reason as necros.

 

5) different players bring different variants. But often times condis will kill thieves; try dabbling in that. But you need to be able to apply them with most hits and try to get multiple kinds.

 

6) DE rifle is a low-health, dodgey, mobile, stealth based class that uses exclusively projectiles. Not only that but the projectiles are slow high-damage/low-count (meaning each skill hits its entire damage in 1 shot, ranger longbow 2 or necro axe 2, and also their shots are not at a fast pace like pistol). Your best chance is to build your build against that. Well timed blocks are hugely annoying for DEs. Esp reflects. Use revealed skills if you have any to make them waste their elite. If you see them shadowstep, you know where they will shadowstep back to within 15s. Use AoEs and condis.

 

7) i believe your greatest allies will be projectile reflect/block skills, and burst esp with dual skills+arcane blast.

 

Find me in game, Slithe Slivier, and I'll help more.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> you know, there are only two ways to fix this:

> either remove stealth

> or

> lower thief damage by 90%

>

> even when the game released, people were pointing out how utterly broken stealth and thief damage were. ANET never listened.

 

people like this simply don't know how to play against stealth builds whether it's thief, mesmer, or ranger. Don't listen to them as they need to get better. Once you learn how to play against them, it can be pretty easy to beat them, esp since stealth is a crappy defense mechanism (really it's for offense) and can be used against them. As for thieves, the sad reality is that most other classes have the means to out burst thieves while the thief is revealed.

 

I also forgot to mention previously: DEs are great at killing people who are worse than them 1v1, without giving the enemy much room for error. But later in the day when better players jump in-game, i die quite a bit in 1v1s as my DE. The majority are to good pvp rangers (esp if they swap weapons between gs and lb a lot, and spam lb2 since it tracks in stealth) and to condi builds (mesmers take the lead here but I've died to other condi builds like engis and heralds). Also some full-tilt builds that go all-out with a quick burst catch me off guard once in a while too. Necros Lich Form can kill thieves in 2-3 hits before revealed his away.

[kash.9213]

> @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > you know, there are only two ways to fix this:

> > either remove stealth

> > or

> > lower thief damage by 90%

> >

> > even when the game released, people were pointing out how utterly broken stealth and thief damage were. ANET never listened.

>

> people like this simply don't know how to play against stealth builds whether it's thief, mesmer, or ranger. Don't listen to them as they need to get better. Once you learn how to play against them, it can be pretty easy to beat them, esp since stealth is a crappy defense mechanism (really it's for offense) and can be used against them. As for thieves, **the sad reality is that most other classes have the means to out burst thieves while the thief is revealed. **

 

That's why it's a good habit to review the combat tab after a fight to get an idea of the build and the sequences they use or what they respond with. Sometimes you're just dealing with someone who's form fitted their build over time and aren't going to get shook, but sometimes you can catch that one thing that you can deny or use against them that might shut down their whole build.

 

OP, you should try to get in a few scraps that are similar and see if anything pops out at you, what you described doesn't sound like a DE once exposed.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

My burst DE builds are totally countered by earth runes because almost everything is a projectile. To be honest, if you have focus offhand you should have more than enough ways to deal with projectiles that DE will almost never kill you.

 

Edit: It's kinda funny that now the 4 shot builds are a problem.

[aleron.1438]

Try out Conjure Earth Shield against a rifle DE, you might be pleasantly surprised how good an asset it can be.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

If you're playing weaver you can counter it with d/d unravel. or d/f.

Weaveself + air/earth dual attack = 20+25% damage reduction. You have leaps, #3 fire/fire, fire/water, water/earth, earth/earth, #4 air. You have daze/stun (more with focus), gale, comet, mud slide, air/water #3 etc. You have flash. You have #2 earth to block projectiles for ~2sec with 6sec cd, which is very very strong against range classes (like you can block the #3 and #4 LB ranger, then leap etc) and on focus, earth #4 and air #4.

 

I'm not saying it's easy. It's not.

Clearly a dagger or sword thief should not have a chance against d/x weaver (mostly if you play with Superior Elements or Lightning rod) but a rifle deadeye ... he's range, you're not ... he has more kites and movement speed than you, he can harass you or leave whenever he wants.

There was a time ~a year ago where weaver could be stupidly strong everywhere in good hands, but with all the nerfs of Stances (stab + cd) the nerfs of power and condi specifically for weaver, the double nerf of healing base + healing coef hitting hard elem who almost always played with healing power, and now the nerf of fury and mights in fire lane, etc, you need courage and you must love doing 150% of others efforts to compete.

 

Edit.

Otherwise yes shadow arts + rifle can be a bit annoying if he plays full stealh in utily skills (Dodge, + shadow meld + blinding power + the heal skill) because you can't count 1-2 or 3 sec and dodge/block or turn back to avoid the backstab. The guy can just vanish, use death's retreat and stay at 1200 range for >6sec, even reset the fight and you"re like an idi*t giving attacks in the air and burning your endurance.

[solemn.9608]

Thank you all, too much to reply to comprehensively but I've read and considered everything you said.

+1 especially to the suggestion of earth shield, I remember using this before and having SO MUCH less trouble vs builds such as rifle DE or a very talented soulbeast/warrior. Might need to crack the earth shield back out since I usually refuse to use focus.

 

I'm open to the idea that if I mained rifle DE for a week I'd probably be able to counter it better but otherwise I really think the build I'm playing, which is optimized for at least 80-90% of all 1v1 scenarios I get into, simply cannot deal with rifle DE. As someone said above, sometimes it's merely rock-paper-scissors and you're the paper, they're the scissor.

 

thx

[Dagger.2035]

I also wouldn’t play to their build’s strengths. If it isn’t a good matchup for you just move away from them when they stealth. Hopefully they will waste ports trying to follow you. Also, find a tree, pillar, or rock that you can hug to make it difficult to attack you from range.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Projectile reflection in earth, or play plasma beam fresh air glass and just nuke him during the channel since it'll track stealth. So long as you can get the beginning of the cast off, you'll continue to hit him in stealth and manage the full combo just fine.

 

I think it's also really important you try playing the spec and learning its animations and tells, its positional skills, cooldowns, etc. Classes which "break the rules" like thief and mesmer are best countered through knowledge more than anything else, because you'll know what they're doing at any given time and can easily predict how they're breaking a given "rule" of the game and more critically, **WHY** they're doing so, which lets you counter them before they even start laying the pressure on again. Odds are, you're getting hit by multiple boon strips and not even realizing you're missing protection, which is why you're taking so much damage.

 

Ele from my understanding is less about stats than it is effects, auras, and traits. You'll have similar problems the moment you try to fight a good reaper; he'll corrupt the essential boons and then kill you with 4 skills in rapid succession. The same weak matchups and immediate impending death is also said about holo and mesmer, too. Pretty much any effective power roaming build will make short work of you if DE is doing so.

 

SA/DE with Rifle as a concept is an abomination and has been repeated as such ad nauseum by many voices in the thief community since even before it was released, solely because it's an absolute mother to take down and it's almost always favored to reset and poke. The damage isn't so much a problem (I can get my ranger longbow AA's to 6k pretty easily, and RF for 15k still), so much as it is that the matchups where the DE is strong into are just stupidly oppressive due to the kiting and detargeting the spec brings, and it turns the thief as a whole more or less into build wars where it wins hard or loses hard based on how accessible your heat-seeking ranged channels are and what defenses you have in your build against ranged opponents. The sentiment is similarly problematic in reverse, and in regards to thief's weaker weapon sets because the traits and weapons need to be balanced around said crazy matchups to some degree.

 

Most DE's are way worse and a lot weaker than you'd think, but you might be crippling yourself on your build for just the matchup alone. It sucks, but it's often how kits like power D/D thief have the same issues; at one point, there was a near-mathematically-unwinnable warrior build matchup, and there have been a few instances where the best advice for some thief setups is "reroll something else" into some past ele builds.

 

If it proves too problematic, you can usually just opt to not fight, as DE can't really do anything except tap keeps and maybe take a camp or two before it gets too hot for them to stay. If they're really persistent, you can throw a painter trap and throw off their entire plan of attack and probably win before they re-evaluate after wasting a cooldown.

 

[Yasai.3549]

Weaver vs DE is a fight yu can't win face to face.

 

But there is something yu can best them at, and that's running away.

 

If a DE gives chase with gap closers, they are pretty much suicidal and asking to get clapped.

[Kallist.5917]

Buddy and I are usually very good at piecing together someone's build from watching them fight, and if we did that, it should be pretty easy to find the weak point in the build. Is there any way you could record it next time you come across this build?

Also, if you do record it, please turn on your attack feed, the one that tells what they hit you with for what amount. That's basically the key to ID'ing someone's build.

[pureskullz.7536]

> @"solemn.9608" said:

> Since whenever I whine about unbalanced game mechanics I receive the response of "just learn how to counter it, you got outplayed" ....

>

> A deadeye opens with a large burst, I'll estimate 7k from a few hits. I react, playing a glassy barrier-weaver build (although this makes little to no difference, so telling me to change my build isn't going to help since I've vs this build on pretty much every viable weaver build already, and even full cele drops nearly instantly to this thief build), so I pop like 8k barrier (Weaver rune) and start healing up to nearly full health. I use mobility to get closer and manage to crit for ~6.5k, then get a few small crits in, leaving him with little health, 20-30% roughly. While I did that, he got my health back to half by ?autoattacking?. He goes into stealth for over 7 seconds and all I can do is attack randomly, which I do ... until he re-appears and stuns me, proceeding to do over 10k damage (through barrier) with ?AUTO ATTACKS? in any case he does not run out of initiative if he is not using autoattacks, and they all hit absurdly high. I assume, since there is no way that this game could be _that_ unbalanced, that this burst will .... end, at some point. It does not! I dive into nearby water and use my water heal, stun him with the underwater static field skill as I'm coming back onto land and again I manage to get him down to very low health with a good Plasma Burst + Fire Grab / Lightning Whip / Primordial. What's he do? Stealth for a long period of time, comes back full health, and...

>

> Repeatedly

> ""bursts"" (they look like regular attacks, and he certainly has a near-endless supply of them)

> me

> to

> death

> With 4k+ hits in rapid succession that do not end

>

> After he already did the same thing 12 seconds ago, give-or-take

>

> Nearly endless burst, very quick, very powerful, it's right off cooldown whenever he wants to use it again, very ""tanky"" build because he can just stealth and leave/mobilize anytime he wants, and does not need to risk almost anything at all vs a full melee class, and probably anything else except a glassy mesmer/soulbeast.

>

> Aside from "your build just can't counter it", what advice would you be willing to give to fight this build?

 

I believe this is why we have Dagger Storm and honestly, if you're not able to beat them after that just walk away from the fight it depends on the weapons you're using for beating Ranged comps but if ranged comps counter your weapon set walking away is perfectly fine It just ain't your fight mate.

[Svarty.8019]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> you know, there are only two ways to fix this:

> either remove stealth

> or

> lower thief damage by 90%

>

> even when the game released, people were pointing out how utterly broken stealth and thief damage were. ANET never listened.

 

ANET DO LISTEN.

But they only listen when there's a united front against something. Gankers frequent the forum in larger proportion because everybody else is jaded. So they always get the game changed to suit them.

That's why thief is in the state it is,

That's why engineer is in the state it is,

That's why warclaw stomp (a proper anti-ganker tool) is gone,

That's why no-downed-state week is happening next week.

 

The list is endless, but ANET do listen.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > you know, there are only two ways to fix this:

> > either remove stealth

> > or

> > lower thief damage by 90%

> >

> > even when the game released, people were pointing out how utterly broken stealth and thief damage were. ANET never listened.

>

> ANET DO LISTEN.

> But they only listen when there's a united front against something. Gankers frequent the forum in larger proportion because everybody else is jaded. So they always get the game changed to suit them.

 

Give me the source for this statement or stop lying to push your silly narrative through.

 

> That's why warclaw stomp (a proper anti-ganker tool) is gone,

 

"warclaw stomp anti-ganker tool" :lol:

 

> That's why no-downed-state week is happening next week.

 

No, it's not and it happens seldom enough to arguably stand as a proof against what you're saying here.

 

> The list is endless, but ANET do listen.

 

Continue, but make sure to include something that's true this time :D

[aleron.1438]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > you know, there are only two ways to fix this:

> > either remove stealth

> > or

> > lower thief damage by 90%

> >

> > even when the game released, people were pointing out how utterly broken stealth and thief damage were. ANET never listened.

>

> ANET DO LISTEN.

> But they only listen when there's a united front against something. Gankers frequent the forum in larger proportion because everybody else is jaded. So they always get the game changed to suit them.

> That's why thief is in the state it is,

> That's why engineer is in the state it is,

> That's why warclaw stomp (a proper anti-ganker tool) is gone,

> That's why no-downed-state week is happening next week.

>

> The list is endless, but ANET do listen.

>

 

That's why Ricochet is back since [ ] , Oh wait....

[Svarty.8019]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

>

> Continue, but make sure to include something that's true this time :D

 

I understand that you tried very hard to refute my truths. Oh well.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> >

> > Continue, but make sure to include something that's true this time :D

>

> I understand that you tried very hard to refute my truths. Oh well.

 

"""truths"""

Judging by absolute lack of on-topic answer, I suspect I've not only "tried", but also succeeded. And it wasn't exactly "very hard", but thanks for comming by and writing... well... nothing.

[jpsssss.7530]

Anet may listen, but listening with low intelligence and creating stupid non-solutions makes me prefer they not listen...

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > >

> > > Continue, but make sure to include something that's true this time :D

> >

> > I understand that you tried very hard to refute my truths. Oh well.

>

> """truths"""

> Judging by absolute lack of on-topic answer, I suspect I've not only "tried", but also succeeded. And it wasn't exactly "very hard", but thanks for comming by and writing... well... nothing.

 

This is the guy that comments that thief OOC is in combat ressing in a thread on no downstate, when that really has absolutely nothing to do with the topic either. The dude will turn literally anything into an anti thief rant because he's a salty necro main, might as well let him have his catharsis and move on tbh.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> >

> > Continue, but make sure to include something that's true this time :D

>

> I understand that you tried very hard to refute my truths. Oh well.

 

Ummm anet listens a bit to much especially regarding the wrong things and uses bandaid solutions far to often, if players can even understand the reasoning behind most changes in the first place.

Regarding thief here ate some but not all changes/nerds that they made to thief over the yrs, I obviously won't list all nor could I remember them all.

- ricochet removed

- cd on backstab

- backstab damage nerfed to a point that using ur ini to stack stealth then move into melee range and to back of the opponent isn't worth the 4k reward when u can heart seeker for the same damage spike without using so much of ur resources.

- skills added that cause long reveals

- towers and guards in wvw that reveal u if u try and stack stealth

- bountiful theft nerfed from 3 boon rip to 2 which is significant in such a boon heavy game

- instant reflexes 300 sec cd

- dash nerfed, added exhaustion

- trait that gives ini on weapon swap nerfed to 2 from 3

- continual ini increases to skills like pistol whip and poison arrow

List goes on but as u can see anet does indeed listen to ur whining.

Seems like ANY thief build that see's success whether its OP or not conjures a ton of nerf teef post from usually the same handful of members on a regular basis, almost as if thief in their mind needs to be deleted or completely unusable because even a just barely viable teef is a OP teef.