Retaliation should punish AoE abuse stronger

[snoow.1694]

Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

 

How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 15-20 times during it‘s duration?

 

Or

 

Giving Retaliation something like Life Siphon every 5th trigger?

 

Or

 

25% incrased damage after a certain amount of triggers?

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

>

> How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 10-15 times during it‘s duration?

 

yes, what we need is 4man teamfights with everyone having prema retal, acting as never ending shocking aura.

[snoow.1694]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> >

> > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 10-15 times during it‘s duration?

>

> yes, what we need is 4man teamfights with everyone having prema retal, acting as never ending shocking aura.

 

Well a few classes would be hit harder than others - Necs, Renegades and Guards would be hit harder than Thieves, Heralds or Warriors

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> > >

> > > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 10-15 times during it‘s duration?

> >

> > yes, what we need is 4man teamfights with everyone having prema retal, acting as never ending shocking aura.

>

> Well a few classes would be hit harder than others - Necs, Renegades and Guards would be hit harder than Thieves, Heralds or Warriors

 

wrong

its not about as much procs, its about as much damage you can afford to take.

on a mesmer MY 150 hp is more valuable then necromancers 600 hp.

some classes like necro, rev, guard can afford to take unavoidable damage since they have high healing output, meanwhile thief, mesmer would suffer more since they dont heal as much.

[snoow.1694]

@Leonidrex.5649

 

I was talking about the stuns, since you criticized exactly that and now damage is the problem?

[Eugchriss.2046]

FYI, AoE is different from multi-hit.

[snoow.1694]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> > > >

> > > > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 10-15 times during it‘s duration?

> > >

> > > yes, what we need is 4man teamfights with everyone having prema retal, acting as never ending shocking aura.

> >

> > Well a few classes would be hit harder than others - Necs, Renegades and Guards would be hit harder than Thieves, Heralds or Warriors

>

> wrong

> its not about as much procs, its about as much damage you can afford to take.

> on a mesmer MY 150 hp is more valuable then necromancers 600 hp.

> some classes like necro, rev, guard can afford to take unavoidable damage since they have high healing output, meanwhile thief, mesmer would suffer more since they dont heal as much.

 

Or easy solution - don‘t multihit people with reta, like it should be and the boons name suggests

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> > > > >

> > > > > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 10-15 times during it‘s duration?

> > > >

> > > > yes, what we need is 4man teamfights with everyone having prema retal, acting as never ending shocking aura.

> > >

> > > Well a few classes would be hit harder than others - Necs, Renegades and Guards would be hit harder than Thieves, Heralds or Warriors

> >

> > wrong

> > its not about as much procs, its about as much damage you can afford to take.

> > on a mesmer MY 150 hp is more valuable then necromancers 600 hp.

> > some classes like necro, rev, guard can afford to take unavoidable damage since they have high healing output, meanwhile thief, mesmer would suffer more since they dont heal as much.

>

> Or easy solution - don‘t multihit people with reta, like it should be and the boons name suggests

>

>

 

then guard would need to lose 80% of its retaliation generation, making it a rare boon and not something you fart out permanently

[snoow.1694]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > > > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 10-15 times during it‘s duration?

> > > > >

> > > > > yes, what we need is 4man teamfights with everyone having prema retal, acting as never ending shocking aura.

> > > >

> > > > Well a few classes would be hit harder than others - Necs, Renegades and Guards would be hit harder than Thieves, Heralds or Warriors

> > >

> > > wrong

> > > its not about as much procs, its about as much damage you can afford to take.

> > > on a mesmer MY 150 hp is more valuable then necromancers 600 hp.

> > > some classes like necro, rev, guard can afford to take unavoidable damage since they have high healing output, meanwhile thief, mesmer would suffer more since they dont heal as much.

> >

> > Or easy solution - don‘t multihit people with reta, like it should be and the boons name suggests

> >

> >

>

> then guard would need to lose 80% of its retaliation generation, making it a rare boon and not something you fart out permanently

 

Most uptimes for retaliation are rather short and wouldn‘t even be long enough to trigger a stun (20 hits) and what you compare to „Shock Aura“ would equal a total of 100 hits you would need to take in 5-8 seconds uptime to stun 5 opponents and hit Shock Aura levels.

[Ubi.4136]

Here's something that makes no sense to me.

Retaliation is meant to punish the attacker for lack of awareness. - ok, makes sense

Reflects are meant to do the same thing, punish the attacker for lack of awareness. - ok, makes sense

Putting a reflect bubble (mesmer for example) on someone with retaliation up, punishes the person who put up the reflect because the attacker keeps attacking. /smh

[CutesySylveon.8290]

Retaliation needs to be removed entirely. It doesn't punish AoE, it punishes multi hit attacks specifically and does nothing to single hit high burst. IceRazer is an AoE that only hits a single person but a lot of times, Barrage hits a single target a lot of times. Retaliation punishes both. Get rid of it.

[Hot Boy.7138]

retaliation is already an exceptionally passive way to play. it's already too strong just by easy it is to apply, i dont think it should have any more functionality. i would actually reduce it's effectiveness.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

bruh, basically everything is aoe spam these days.

[Shaogin.2679]

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

>

> How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 15-20 times during it‘s duration?

>

> Or

>

> Giving Retaliation something like Life Siphon every 5th trigger?

>

> Or

>

> 25% incrased damage after a certain amount of triggers?

 

I can't possibly imagine the thought process that brought you to this conclusion. I mean, there is no way you applied any logic to this when you were thinking this up. Who in the world sees something broken and thinks they can make it better by breaking something else? The AoE spam in this game is horrible, but this is no solution. With the direction this game is heading, I doubt there will ever be a solution. Just enjoy what we have left until it crashes and burns.

[Kachros.4751]

retaliation had seen its fair share of dumb builds in the recent past and were nerfed appropriately, guardian is basically the only class with high uptime of retaliation and has seen the most brainless builds to date. The class with the most retal had the most degen aoe builds and increasing retal will just improve "retal and heal" builds that are just straight up unfun to play against as well as lowering the skillcap of pvp builds yet again.

[Bazsi.2734]

I'd like to see retaliation do more damage with shortened durations. But that would shift retal application towards more skillful play and might varrant a radiance traitline rework so nah... not going to happen.

[Kuma.1503]

My only gripe with retal is that there is no visual communication that it is there outside of watching buff bars.

 

I don't find AoE spam a problem personally. Dodging AoEs on the ground is just... Gw2 in a nutshell. Doesn't matter if we're talking PvE, WvW or PvP. I'd honestly say that PvP is where I have the least problem with AoEs.

[Smoosh.2718]

I know we have skills that do more damage the more of a stat we have... could it work the other way around?

 

So retaliation is higher based on less Vitality and Toughness, meaning retaliation will hit harder from a squishy than a tank. This being said, it could be abused Vs Fast attackers causing death upon a quick 15x attack, but the flip side to this is that you do not have the defences a vitality and toughness stacker would.

 

TLDR: Toughness and Vitality lower the damage of retaliation 50:50 split between the stats, so if you stack only vitality, its 50% of its max.

[Teratus.2859]

I don't like the way Retaliation works (based on the power stat of the person who casts it NOT the person who triggers it or by the damage dealt)

 

In PvE this means retaliation is stupidly op on certain creatures but pathetically weak on players.

If you've ever played a glassy Ranger or Warrior or something you've probably had one of those moments when you've used a Barrage or Hundred Blades on something and nuked yourself with retaliation damage XD

 

I think it should work differently instead of dealing damage based on the power stat of the caster it should instead take a percentage of the damage you've taken and add it to the total base damage of the next weapon skill you use.

[Liewec.2896]

agreed, i LOVE IT when aoe spammers complain that they died to retal because they were mindlessly spamming AoE.

oh no! how dreadful!

Retal should be a lot stronger in general, its usually just ignored entirely, its so unnoticeable.

it should hit hard like confusion, to make people think before mindlessly spaming.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

if you make retal stronger you gotta introduce a cap, such as you can only take a max of 5 retal hits per sec. otherwise retal will get borkened.

[snoow.1694]

> @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> >

> > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 15-20 times during it‘s duration?

> >

> > Or

> >

> > Giving Retaliation something like Life Siphon every 5th trigger?

> >

> > Or

> >

> > 25% incrased damage after a certain amount of triggers?

>

> I can't possibly imagine the thought process that brought you to this conclusion. I mean, there is no way you applied any logic to this when you were thinking this up. Who in the world sees something broken and thinks they can make it better by breaking something else? The AoE spam in this game is horrible, but this is no solution. With the direction this game is heading, I doubt there will ever be a solution. Just enjoy what we have left until it crashes and burns.

 

The fact that the Skills Team of ArenaNet announced they want to rework Retaliation and make it "feel more rewarding", so it is not as delusional as you make it up to be. Also you basically offered no argument of what exactly would be broken and why as well as offering no solution to the AoE spam topic. Retaliation simply isn't broken - this is why people don't respect it at all as a boon when casting their AoE's - hardly anyone checks

[snoow.1694]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> I'd like to see retaliation do more damage with shortened durations. But that would shift retal application towards more skillful play and might varrant a radiance traitline rework so nah... not going to happen.

 

My man, glad to see you back in the forum :# haven't had a match together for some weeks

[Shaogin.2679]

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> > @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> > >

> > > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 15-20 times during it‘s duration?

> > >

> > > Or

> > >

> > > Giving Retaliation something like Life Siphon every 5th trigger?

> > >

> > > Or

> > >

> > > 25% incrased damage after a certain amount of triggers?

> >

> > I can't possibly imagine the thought process that brought you to this conclusion. I mean, there is no way you applied any logic to this when you were thinking this up. Who in the world sees something broken and thinks they can make it better by breaking something else? The AoE spam in this game is horrible, but this is no solution. With the direction this game is heading, I doubt there will ever be a solution. Just enjoy what we have left until it crashes and burns.

>

> The fact that the Skills Team of ArenaNet announced they want to rework Retaliation and make it "feel more rewarding", so it is not as delusional as you make it up to be. Also you basically offered no argument of what exactly would be broken and why as well as offering no solution to the AoE spam topic. Retaliation simply isn't broken - this is why people don't respect it at all as a boon when casting their AoE's - hardly anyone checks

 

Just because they want to rework something doesn't mean they want to completely break it. Also, no explanation is needed for why it would be broken. If I say I want an auto attack to one-shot players, I don't expect them to explain to me why that is a horrible idea. You are basically asking for retaliation to be so strong that players can no longer safely use an AoE skill. This is completely ridiculous considering how passive retaliation is to start with. Also, retaliation already works great for it's intended purpose. It punishes rapid hitting attacks. That's why you never see Engineers running around in large zerg fights in WvW with nades or the flamethrower. As for the AoE spam, that is a completely separate topic that would technically be derailing this thread. Your topic was about reworking retaliation in the most ridiculous way possible, so my response was of course directed at that.

[otto.5684]

Passive damage? No thanks.