Should breakbars be removed?

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

> @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > > @"Palador.2170" said:

> > > How I would address the tutorial issue:

> > >

> > > * Make a blue treasure chest model.

> > > * Give it a break bar.

> > > * Put one in each starting zone somewhere, much like the dodge tutorials but further along. Add in a NPC that says that they've tried hitting the chest, but it doesn't want to open.

> > > * Add in a pop-up that shows when you get close (again, like the dodge tutorials) that tells you to hit it with skills that cause blindness, stun, knockback, ect to lower the blue bar to open it.

> > > * Replace the occasional JP chest and/or hidden chests throughout the world with blue chests, to serve as reminders and give players chances to test out newly gained skills as they advance through the world. No NPC or pop-up needed for these chests.

> >

> > Really nice idea. A lot of casual players pay more attention to the "loot" and less to enemy target information so that would be a good way to nail the point in.

>

> Best part about it, if the player doesn't have the skill slotted, there's plenty of time and no pressure, since they're mostly likely already out of combat.

> The hard part is finding a place/level band that is common enough for new players to have the skills and location to drive the interaction.

>

> Additional tangent, we still should have blue numbers to announce Defiance damage.

 

Agreed. And all skills should show defiance damage numbers in their tooltip.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> I believe the Break Bar system is superior to the old Defiance mechanic. However, I also believe there are a few mobs with break bars that need revision. Notably, the Bloodstone Elementals in the BS Fen, whose bar only loses about 10% to a Daze, and resets within a second or so. What's the point? These are normal mobs that most players will kill with a few attacks. Why even give them a bar in the first place?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand. Are you trying to say that the monsters that constantly drop countless bloodstone shards that will instantly stun them 100% of the time if you picked one up to throw them have insane breakbars?

 

Every map with them teaches you this. The story for these maps teaches you this multiple times. I mean, at some point it is to be expected that people might pick up one of them even without the story telling them to, simply because there are so many of them. The description tells you exactly what'll happen.

 

But I guess many people have this issue and aren't very observant.

 

> @"Mantheren.5428" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > They do on normal mobs but if no bosses had a breakbar, they would just be chain CC's being permanently stunned or pulled about the area by 50 people. They would totally ruin every boss that has large numbers of people in. What would you suggest to stop that from happening thats better than a breakbar?

> I am actually fine with that happening. They can do it to us as well. The skill says it does a push back, then I expect it to do a pushback basically.

 

Oh yeah, what could go wrong. Make combat even more of a joke in open world. Let's push the boss over the entire map without a chance to fight back

[Khisanth.2948]

I think you should have asked yourself the obvious follow up question. Where does this end?

 

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> hyperbole but:

> we could just exchance every boss with `a giant chest that doesn´t fight back` (which most of the core ones already are with a different skin).

>

> breakbars have there place and should stay. it´s not to demanding for people to actually use cc skills.

> they add at least SOMETHING to the "fight" other than doing your rotation (or pushing buttons on cooldowns for the majority)

 

No. This game needs more Mimics :P

[Dante.1763]

They need to add a really really good, non skippable(the first time) tutorial that must be played before entering HoT, or other level 80 content.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Mantheren.5428" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > They do on normal mobs but if no bosses had a breakbar, they would just be chain CC's being permanently stunned or pulled about the area by 50 people. They would totally ruin every boss that has large numbers of people in. What would you suggest to stop that from happening thats better than a breakbar?

> I am actually fine with that happening. They can do it to us as well. The skill says it does a push back, then I expect it to do a pushback basically.

 

I dont think anet, nor most people who enjoy actual content in the game would like that

[Mantheren.5428]

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> I dont think anet, nor most people who enjoy actual content in the game would like that

Yeah I don't think there is any chance of them getting rid of them.

It may have not been clear but the mobs should also be able to cleanse the conditions and give themselves stability, just like the players use to avoid cc.

But yeah, like I said it's unlikely to change. Maybe they can make the bars scale better, but they are not going anywhere.

[wiazabi.2549]

Mark skills with color / icon / something if they are hard or soft cc would help.

 

But i doubt it would fix it for open world like mordremoth as either people wouldnt put time into what is or isnt cc ability and just click / autoattack their way as normal or maybe learn their rotations but still dont know what is cc or not and the rest that do know is not enough to make a difference in the big events.

 

Another thing is cc abilites can be part of dps rotations, i play holosmith so if i know not to cc or when to cc i know i can just hold those skills back but i can see how this can be difficult/annoying/confusing for players to do.

 

Could be cool to have the raid dps instance enchanced with cc tutorial where you could take the cc abilites of other classes and possible a finisher area where you could activate fields to try out the different finishers blast leap etc.

 

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > I believe the Break Bar system is superior to the old Defiance mechanic. However, I also believe there are a few mobs with break bars that need revision. Notably, the Bloodstone Elementals in the BS Fen, whose bar only loses about 10% to a Daze, and resets within a second or so. What's the point? These are normal mobs that most players will kill with a few attacks. Why even give them a bar in the first place?

>

> I'm sorry, but I don't understand. Are you trying to say that the monsters that constantly drop countless bloodstone shards that will instantly stun them 100% of the time if you picked one up to throw them have insane breakbars?

>

> Every map with them teaches you this. The story for these maps teaches you this multiple times. I mean, at some point it is to be expected that people might pick up one of them even without the story telling them to, simply because there are so many of them. The description tells you exactly what'll happen.

>

> But I guess many people have this issue and aren't very observant.

 

Sorry, I gave up on picking up environmental weapons back in core, as they were so underwhelming. I remember the story step that "taught" this, but did not carry the thought any further than the end of the story as I had to run through it three times due to DC's. By the time I got through, I was (temporarily) ready to forget the game, never mind some minor story mechanic.

 

It's still poor design. This mob could have been an opportunity to teach people that their is some benefit to using their own CC skills. Instead we have a gimmick. And people wonder why others don't know game mechanics. This game does a wretched job of encouraging character skill exploration.

[Game of Bones.8975]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> I think you should have asked yourself the obvious follow up question. Where does this end?

>

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > hyperbole but:

> > we could just exchance every boss with `a giant chest that doesn´t fight back` (which most of the core ones already are with a different skin).

> >

> > breakbars have there place and should stay. it´s not to demanding for people to actually use cc skills.

> > they add at least SOMETHING to the "fight" other than doing your rotation (or pushing buttons on cooldowns for the majority)

>

> No. This game needs more Mimics :P

 

I love those old D&D jokes:

A barkeep asked why we carried weapons in the bar. I said "Mimics." He laughed, the party laughed, three chairs laughed, we killed the chairs. And a good time was had by all.

[otto.5684]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> I think it needs a rework in way of breaking it. And maybe more explaining done in game of how it works. And maybe add more consuquences to not breaking the bar

 

Why? Not every thing have to be spoon fed. It does not take more than few interactions to understand how the bars work.

 

Also, most open world content bosses, by design, has limited requirements to break bars. So you can not understand it at all and still be okay.

 

[fixit.7189]

I think they need to add damage numbers for defiance bars so a player can visually see if they are doing anything to it. Atm there is no visual feed back so it often feels like I am having no effect on them. Especially with soft CC.

 

Speaking of soft CC, I would like to see it scale better b/c not all profs have easy access to hard CC, like my staff elementalist.

[Westenev.5289]

Personally, I think bosses should be designed with cc in mind. Breakbars are an unfun "play my way" mechanic that prevents the player from working out their own strategy beyond "hit it really hard til it dies".

[Dante.1763]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > I think it needs a rework in way of breaking it. And maybe more explaining done in game of how it works. And maybe add more consuquences to not breaking the bar

>

> Why? Not every thing have to be spoon fed. It does not take more than few interactions to understand how the bars work.

>

> Also, most open world content bosses, by design, has limited requirements to break bars. So you can not understand it at all and still be okay.

>

 

Saddly a vital mechanic that can actually prevent an event from succeeding(see serpents ire) should be explained at least in a basic fashion.

[Xenon.4537]

Breakbars are fine. It's people who need to learn how to deal with them. The game does a poor job teaching new players about them. It needs to be tutorialized better.

[Daddicus.6128]

I would prefer some kind of coloring scheme or hatchwork scheme to be able to identify the type of break bar and its strength. But, not a completely rework or removal. They're good for the game, but there's no consistency.

[joneirikb.7506]

Some thoughts on how to change/improve break-bar's that might lead to more variety/more interesting game play:

 

* Have different types of break bars, that while "up" gives something similar to a "boon" that can't be corrupted or re applies itself. Examples Protection, Regeneration, Resistance, Stability, etc. This would mean that people would see something more "obvious" about breaking the bar, suddenly the boss becomes much easier. Have a description that says "Protected while defiance bar is up" or such.

* As someone else suggested before, allow many enemies to have specific soft CC or even CC to bypass the DefianceBar determined by race/role/specific. For example a centaur boss might still be affected by Cripple, perhaps even Weakness. A Harpy boss might be affected by Imob or Knockdown, etc.

* Similarly have different bosses have specific weaknesses, that can reduce DefianceBar faster? Should be pretty varied, so people don't have the option to pick a "best" CC set to a specific area etc, but rather pick based on what give them the most trouble. But giving a way to slightly rock/scissor/paper the defiance bar if needed.

[Kitty La Boom Boom.4065]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > I think it needs a rework in way of breaking it. And maybe more explaining done in game of how it works. And maybe add more consuquences to not breaking the bar

>

> There are already enough bosses with enough consequences (wyverns for example) for not breaking them. Explaining is hard to do in a tutorial because each profession gets CC skills at a different pace, and no build has CC in the tutorial. Funnily enough, the very instance of Heart of Thorns teaches you Break bars by having you fight a Mordrem with a hammer on a tiny bridge.

 

It's really not that difficult to figure out. Pretty much any skill that will override the mob's skills, even for a moment, like stun, bind, fear, knock down, etc, will help break the bar. I don't get why this is supposedly an issue of difficulty. It really isn't. If nothing else, trial and error will teach it, but generally, just paying attention does the trick.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It really needs a tutorial about the defiance bar, the differents CC AND the benefits of breaking the bar.

Interrupt the mob interrupt a big attack, of course, but also the "Exposed" effect; it's been 3 years and I see a lot of people that don't even know (don't even read) you make MORE DAMAGE after you break the bar.

Or make the Exposed effect icon bigger or something ....

Otherwise, it's good as it is. The little disadvantage is we can't see big bosses transformed into a moa.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> Break bars should become mandatory elements to encounters that causes the events to fail uf not broken. I wish more content was like serpents ire

 

That is a reason this event is completly deserted. Too many people without a clue what to do, or expecting other to do the job.

This is interesting, but not for open World.

[Yamazuki.6073]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Should breakbars be removed in favor for more easy and casual gameplay

> There's a presumption that that "casual" gamers can't understand basic mechanics. There's a further presumption that oversimplifying the game makes it more fun for everyone.

>

> Accordingly, I don't think the facts support the premise of the question.

 

Being unable to understand something and not wanting to understand something are two very different things. The majority of players on any given game are capable of understanding mechanics and how things function, but they simply don't want to, and don't have to. Most people who play games for fun generally don't care for efficiency.

[wickedkae.4980]

I wish the devs actually made it so you got real feedback on how your skills are affecting the break bar. Right now, I have no clue how effective I am or if I am even doing anything at all. They need a much beeter feedback system.

 

We will never see this

[mauried.5608]

Isnt the function of all games to play them for fun?

Games are NOT a school classroom, where you have to acquire specialised knowledge in order to have fun.

If players are avoiding particular events, its simply because the events are not fun to do for them in their current form.

Events which require specialised knowledge to do them , should spell out before you go in what this required knowledge is , and how and where you obtain it.

 

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Mantheren.5428" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > I dont think anet, nor most people who enjoy actual content in the game would like that

> Yeah I don't think there is any chance of them getting rid of them.

> It may have not been clear but the mobs should also be able to cleanse the conditions and give themselves stability, just like the players use to avoid cc.

> But yeah, like I said it's unlikely to change. Maybe they can make the bars scale better, but they are not going anywhere.

 

This would just make conditions even worse than they are right now in open world.

Stability is useless against 50 people. They just remove it instantly by random boon removal. You need some kind of CC resistance that can't be easily removed or the boss is just CCed to the end of time. Other games fix it by just making them immune to everything. The GW2 solution is much better.

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> I would prefer some kind of coloring scheme or hatchwork scheme to be able to identify the type of break bar and its strength. But, not a completely rework or removal. They're good for the game, but there's no consistency.

All breakbars work the same outside the endeffect and strenght. As strenght scales with player numbers a color code would just be confusing especially when it changes midfight when people join or leave.

In instanced content break bars are not an issue normally.

 

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> There's a _lot_ of issues with breakbars in general that need to be fixed:

> * Soft CC (by far the most common and widely available kind) is literally worthless against them by itself

One type of soft CC is bad. Multiple types together are pretty good. As most soft CC is easy to come by they can't buff soft CC without break bars becoming a joke.

> * Availability of hard CC varies wildly between classes, and between weapon types within them

> * The weapons that provide a lot of CC are usually also pretty bad for damage, which makes them sub-par for everyday in-game use (to the point where many players not only choose not to use them, but might not even have one _to_ use)

Most classes have plenty of CC on meta weapons. Power Soulbeast has CC on Greatsword, off-hand Axe, merged rock gazelle, unmerged rock gazelle. Most players just don't know where to find the CC on their class.

> * Break bars regenerate _way_ too fast, much faster than your CC skills do (which tend to have PVP-balanced cooldowns, ie long ones), so when you're by yourself there's no reason to break them unless they're the scripted kind you absolutely need to

As champions are designed for 5+ people, not a problem.

> * They also scale way out of proportion to the player population, at the high end they're almost impossible to break

Nah most players just don't know how to break it. Scaling would be fine if most would participate in breaking the bar.

> * A lot of miscellaneous weirdness, like veteran enemies with breakbars just so you can't CC them out of their gimmicks (bristlebacks, those hoverboarding forged, awakened canids), or break bars that don't actually work the way you'd logically expect (mordrem desolators)

Some breakbars are intended for interrupting skills.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Mantheren.5428" said:

> I am not a fan of break bars, never have been. I prefer the crowd control skills to actually do the crowd control effects they were meant for. Not be repurposed to break a bar.

 

Yeah that would Be so much fun to perma blind every boss /s

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

It is already easy casual...