Burnfall.9573 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 'They never fixed the root issue.....condi Thief will be back' ''hey blame arena net for nerfing a power thief' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisdom.4712 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Power thieves are essentially nothing but a nuisance that hit like (comparatively) wet noodles in 1v1 scenarios. Sure they can gank and backstab you for high crits when you're distracted with something else, but they're poor duelists. More often then not, they are forced to run away. After the balance patch this will be exacerbated. Conditions will like reign supreme and trailblazer mirages will have high success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > First to vote. Yeet. > > > Thief, because stealth is still op and with less dmg around they are even harder to nuke down, so they will just stealth and reset the fight until they finally win. > > > > Yes....and no. > > > > I am undecided, and probbaly will be until it goes live. However in a 1vs1, after the dmg nerfs that thief also received, spending that much time in stealth with the unchanged HP pool, it will not be super easy for them to kill something, they will need to spend more time out of stealth to deal that dmg, so I am unsure if it will be the strongest 1vs1 class. > > > > It will however, I think be one of the stronger roaming classes, if not the best, because with reduced spike and high stealth up time it means that if the thief doesn't want to die, they wont. That is close to the case now, unless they over invest into a fight or get over confident. After the patch they have that much more room to stealth and get away. Same for "perm stealth" builds and killing one in a keep. > > > > Stealth is one of those things that is defensive and offensive at the same time, how it also didn't see large reductions as well, I don't really understand. Being that many other defensive skills, traits and auto procs are being nerfed across the board including on thief, it will probably make stealth even more valuable to them, meaning I expect to see builds with more high stealth uptime than we see now. > > Also got to look at other builds theif will face, ranger for example has prot on dodge and weakness on taking dmg, dunno if they have been changed but that shut down most theif builds unless you went 1 shot option. So even if all dmg across the game is nerfed the things like this will be even more harder to kill Bunker soulbeast is unkillable by anyone (Example: a full zerk spinal shivers removing 3 boons deals 2k critical damage to its 25k hp). That's not a thief issue. But thieves at least can comfortably avoid the fight. So yes, thief won't be able to kill some encounters. But in contrast nobody will be able to kill a thief who knows his limits and is not afk. Way too many escape options. Shadowstep, shortbow, stealth incl. increased movement speed and cleanses, dagger storm, a block for daredevil, a ridiculous backleap for rifle thieves before they vanish in stealth, tons of stunbreaks... etc. All this stuff while anyone else deals 30% less damage on average. If a thief was vulnerable to anything, then a coordinated burst, which will be much harder to land now. After the patch due to increased cooldowns and ini costs a thief has to re-engage a few seconds later to be safe, but this won't hurt him because the defensive cooldowns of its encounters are increased too. Time to kill is higher but so is the thief's escape potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > First to vote. Yeet. > > > > Thief, because stealth is still op and with less dmg around they are even harder to nuke down, so they will just stealth and reset the fight until they finally win. > > > > > > Yes....and no. > > > > > > I am undecided, and probbaly will be until it goes live. However in a 1vs1, after the dmg nerfs that thief also received, spending that much time in stealth with the unchanged HP pool, it will not be super easy for them to kill something, they will need to spend more time out of stealth to deal that dmg, so I am unsure if it will be the strongest 1vs1 class. > > > > > > It will however, I think be one of the stronger roaming classes, if not the best, because with reduced spike and high stealth up time it means that if the thief doesn't want to die, they wont. That is close to the case now, unless they over invest into a fight or get over confident. After the patch they have that much more room to stealth and get away. Same for "perm stealth" builds and killing one in a keep. > > > > > > Stealth is one of those things that is defensive and offensive at the same time, how it also didn't see large reductions as well, I don't really understand. Being that many other defensive skills, traits and auto procs are being nerfed across the board including on thief, it will probably make stealth even more valuable to them, meaning I expect to see builds with more high stealth uptime than we see now. > > > > Also got to look at other builds theif will face, ranger for example has prot on dodge and weakness on taking dmg, dunno if they have been changed but that shut down most theif builds unless you went 1 shot option. So even if all dmg across the game is nerfed the things like this will be even more harder to kill > Bunker soulbeast is unkillable by anyone (Example: a full zerk spinal shivers removing 3 boons deals 2k critical damage to its 25k hp). That's not a thief issue. But thieves at least can comfortably avoid the fight. So yes, thief won't be able to kill some encounters. But in contrast nobody will be able to kill a thief who knows his limits and is not afk. Way too many escape options. Shadowstep, shortbow, stealth incl. increased movement speed and cleanses, dagger storm, a block for daredevil, a ridiculous backleap for rifle thieves before they vanish in stealth, tons of stunbreaks... etc. > > All this stuff while anyone else deals 30% less damage on average. If a thief was vulnerable to anything, then a coordinated burst, which will be much harder to land now. > > After the patch due to increased cooldowns and ini costs a thief has to re-engage a few seconds later to be safe, but this won't hurt him because the defensive cooldowns of its encounters are increased too. Time to kill is higher but so is the thief's escape potential. ok fair point but thief also gets 30% nerf too, did you even see nerf to theif? both passive in acrobatics gets the same as others, 300 sec on IR and 40 on pain response. And by the looks of things condi builds will be a lot more played in wvw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanity Obscure.6054 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 The patch hasn't even dropped, and yet I can see that hating on thieves is the meta again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovu.7560 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I'm weirdly in agreement with the majority of posts in this thread. That doesn't usually happen. I stated my opinions on the likely upcoming state of roaming in another thread, and direct 1v1'ers are just the lawful cousins of roamers so I'll post my opinion from there, here. > @"Kovu.7560" said: > The power stat got a massive nerf effectively, due to all of the coefficients being gutted across the board for everyone. Meanwhile sustain got a smaller nerf. You'll find fewer roamers investing as heavily into power (as it means less) and more into condition damage and defensive stats (which'll counter some of that sustain loss caused by skill nerfs). Overall fights will get longer, uncoordinated/solo bursts will be less successful. > > Therefore my prediction is that the professions with the tools to stealth and kite will have a greater edge in combats and will see improved survival odds. Thieves, mesmers mostly. Pocket firebrands will be _even more_ impossible to kill because while (I assume, I haven't read the guardian notes) they haven't gotten much worse at what they do, the people trying to focus them down will have a more difficult time doing so -- so you'll likely see more of them in small groups. Guardians aside, tanky warrior, engineer, elementalist & ranger builds will be nigh unkillable, at best you could hope for a draw. There will be a lot more draws in power v. power fights with these changes. Will likely revert to a condi bunker meta. > > Initial thoughts. So on that note I feel mesmer and thief will be the strongest fighters, followed by warrior (the class that can still hit like a truck with the least investment in power), followed by the professions with better condition options (mesmer, rev), followed by the "you can't actually kill me but I probably won't kill you" elementalist, ranger and engineer builds. I voted mesmer because in what I feel will be a condition meta mirage will be more threatening than whatever thieves can put out. I do feel despite the guardian nerfs that pocket firebrands will be even _more_ effective in 2-5 group skirmish scenarios than they are even now. But as this is about 1v1 scenarios... mesmer. ~ Kovu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Thief and Mesmer are gonna be extremely powerful/problematic since they have their one weakness of being nuked being addressed. They aren't gonna be invincible, no, but they are gonna be very hard to kill. The only saving grace is that their Stealth-bursts are no longer gonna be as lethal as before, giving some builds a measure of safety while they limp out of the fight or simply tank them until the cows come home. People just need to think of the new balance patches forward as something like a refocusing and build with that in mind. 1. Damage all around is being dropped 2. This means people may not have to invest so much in durability as before to survive 3. People will start building more offensive stats 4. Classes previously notorious for being very durable despite building pure offense are being hard nerfed (Holos, Soulbeasts for example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 > @"Kovu.7560" said: > I'm weirdly in agreement with the majority of posts in this thread. That doesn't usually happen. I stated my opinions on the likely upcoming state of roaming in another thread, and direct 1v1'ers are just the lawful cousins of roamers so I'll post my opinion from there, here. > > > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > The power stat got a massive nerf effectively, due to all of the coefficients being gutted across the board for everyone. Meanwhile sustain got a smaller nerf. You'll find fewer roamers investing as heavily into power (as it means less) and more into condition damage and defensive stats (which'll counter some of that sustain loss caused by skill nerfs). Overall fights will get longer, uncoordinated/solo bursts will be less successful. > > > > Therefore my prediction is that the professions with the tools to stealth and kite will have a greater edge in combats and will see improved survival odds. Thieves, mesmers mostly. Pocket firebrands will be _even more_ impossible to kill because while (I assume, I haven't read the guardian notes) they haven't gotten much worse at what they do, the people trying to focus them down will have a more difficult time doing so -- so you'll likely see more of them in small groups. Guardians aside, tanky warrior, engineer, elementalist & ranger builds will be nigh unkillable, at best you could hope for a draw. There will be a lot more draws in power v. power fights with these changes. Will likely revert to a condi bunker meta. > > > > Initial thoughts. > > So on that note I feel mesmer and thief will be the strongest fighters, followed by warrior (the class that can still hit like a truck with the least investment in power), followed by the professions with better condition options (mesmer, rev), followed by the "you can't actually kill me but I probably won't kill you" elementalist, ranger and engineer builds. I voted mesmer because in what I feel will be a condition meta mirage will be more threatening than whatever thieves can put out. > > I do feel despite the guardian nerfs that pocket firebrands will be even _more_ effective in 2-5 group skirmish scenarios than they are even now. But as this is about 1v1 scenarios... mesmer. > > ~ Kovu Why exactly do you think that warriors will still hit like trucks? Most of their dmg came from chaining together cc and then a burst, cc wont do any dmg, and the followed burst has less dmg too, while might gain was cut down aswell. So you wont see 9k bullscharge into 10k eviscerate anymore. It will be 30dmg bullscharge into maybe 6k eviscerate. Since many warrior skills are tied to cc and pretty much all the cc gets the 0.01 treatment warrior loses more than 30% dmg. So if a warrior goes into tankier stats, like you said, they will lose even more dmg. A tanky warrior might be nearly unkillable, but he wont do much else aswell, except maybe perma cc you and have a friend that does the dmg on your not moving body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L A T I O N.8923 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 As a main guard i have to say boonbeast. Running almost full berserk barely touches Them allready(yesterday i fought a setler/wanderer and his auto hit me double compared to what i hit him. I run 12k health...do the math), with 30% damage on my side reduction IT Will be only worse. Sure they'll have slightly less protection and their healing potential is slightly cut down slightly but after some Analytics i barely see a reduction then VS now at all (but 20s on doly stance). Which i consider problematic since ive seen 4-5 people struggling on YouTubers/streamers doing nothing but facetank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi.4152 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Not gonna vote since i have 0 idea but... feel like people voting for thief are kinda delusional. The quintessential spike then leave class with the worst sustain in the game will.. somehow... become better... if the fights take longer because damage overall is being lowered? Dont get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len.1879 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 > @"Emi.4152" said: > Not gonna vote since i have 0 idea but... feel like people voting for thief are kinda delusional. The quintessential spike then leave class with the worst sustain in the game will.. somehow... become better... if the fights take longer because damage overall is being lowered? Dont get it The idea is that since Thieves can repeatedly disengage and engage they can chip away their opponents health more effectively, wait for their opponent to make a mistake or disengage entirely (like they can already do in many cases) if they believe their chances are slim. Their potential for disengaging becomes even higher, as it becomes harder to spike Thieves down during the periods when they are visible and in rage with a general damage nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi.4152 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 > @"Len.1879" said: > > @"Emi.4152" said: > > Not gonna vote since i have 0 idea but... feel like people voting for thief are kinda delusional. The quintessential spike then leave class with the worst sustain in the game will.. somehow... become better... if the fights take longer because damage overall is being lowered? Dont get it > > The idea is that since Thieves can repeatedly disengage and engage they can chip away their opponents health more effectively, wait for their opponent to make a mistake or disengage entirely (like they can already do in many cases) if they believe their chances are slim. Their potential for disengaging becomes even higher, as it becomes harder to spike Thieves down during the periods when they are visible and in rage with a general damage nerf. Are we talking about kiting or disengaging? If the thief disengages (oocs), the person fighting the thief could just mount up and leave, or run to the nearest sentry / tower / keep / zerg or even camp if they feel like their chances are slim. Or are we talking about the extremely thirsty people who chases a thief across the map and eventually dies? Dont get me wrong though, I agree that potentially a thief could engage / disengage ad infin against certain classes (kiting and without going ooc) but that's in a vacuum and costs a substantial amount of resources for the thief to do so, making a mediocre duelist into an even worse one. Or is the problem simply that it's unfair that a thief can leave an open field 1 v 1 fight whereas other classes would need to move to a sentry or tower in order to do the same? Does that alone make thief the strongest 1 v 1 class after the patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len.1879 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 > @"Emi.4152" said: > > @"Len.1879" said: > > > @"Emi.4152" said: > > > Not gonna vote since i have 0 idea but... feel like people voting for thief are kinda delusional. The quintessential spike then leave class with the worst sustain in the game will.. somehow... become better... if the fights take longer because damage overall is being lowered? Dont get it > > > > The idea is that since Thieves can repeatedly disengage and engage they can chip away their opponents health more effectively, wait for their opponent to make a mistake or disengage entirely (like they can already do in many cases) if they believe their chances are slim. Their potential for disengaging becomes even higher, as it becomes harder to spike Thieves down during the periods when they are visible and in rage with a general damage nerf. > > Are we talking about kiting or disengaging? If the thief disengages (oocs), the person fighting the thief could just mount up and leave, or run to the nearest sentry / tower / keep / zerg or even camp if they feel like their chances are slim. Or are we talking about the extremely thirsty people who chases a thief across the map and eventually dies? > > Dont get me wrong though, I agree that potentially a thief could engage / disengage ad infin against certain classes (kiting and without going ooc) but that's in a vacuum and costs a substantial amount of resources for the thief to do so, making a mediocre duelist into an even worse one. > > Or is the problem simply that it's unfair that a thief can leave an open field 1 v 1 fight whereas other classes would need to move to a sentry or tower in order to do the same? Does that alone make thief the strongest 1 v 1 class after the patch? I used the terms "disengage and engage" and "disengage entirely", but if you would prefer the terminology of "kite" vs "disengage", then sure, same thing, basically. And yes, I do believe having this sort of chip-damage over time would wear down a player quickly -- at least me. There may be more deadly combinations after the patch (generally condition builds have been mentioned a few times, although the Thief might excel at that as well on top of their potential for kiting), but I think making it harder to swat back at the enemy effectively makes them much more deadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Mobility will gain an edge since there will be more time for more mobile builds to decide do I break off and come back at this. I would not pin that on one class since a number of them have options depending on how they are built out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 I'm not going to pretend I can parse all the data they've given us to make a single conclusion. What I do think though is that builds without significant mobility, cc (soft and hard), and kiteability are hosed. The objective is still the same, do more damage than you take. The way it's been for a long time is mobility, cc, burst mostly reigns supreme. Only one of those is really going away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Oh boy, I wonder why people would say mesmer and thief. Could it be st..... shhhhhhhhh! DON'T SAY IT! Although mesmer mirage cloak and confounding suggestions are getting dunked on. Thieves will still have their usual disengage and mobility intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blockhead Magee.3092 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Thief - because of stealth. Anet seems to love stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexalot.8194 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Who's the Troll that voted for Revenant ? :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Thief the four people who voted mesmer did not read the new endurance changes on Mirage, and btw chrono doesn't get distortion. So one dodge minimal access to damage avoids mesmers are done completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 > @"Genesis.5169" said: > Thief the four people who voted mesmer did not read the new endurance changes on Mirage, and btw chrono doesn't get distortion. So one dodge minimal access to damage avoids mesmers are done completely. > @"Hexalot.8194" said: > Who's the Troll that voted for Revenant ? :p i dont hink its a troll, the changes to assassin and deamon are quite interesting (strong on paper), i can built torment to cast on u while when that happens u will get more conditions and that seams like a atemp to burst, if the amount of fire is the same as torment... it can be dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Za Shaloc.3908 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 > @"Genesis.5169" said: > Thief the four people who voted mesmer did not read the new endurance changes on Mirage, and btw chrono doesn't get distortion. So one dodge minimal access to damage avoids mesmers are done completely. Somehow I doubt that. For condi Mirages at least. With TB gear, dodge food, and double energy sigils, it makes a notably smaller impact in WvW than it does in sPvP where they will have an even smaller selection of amulets. Not saying they will be S-tier, but I have a hard time imagining a condi Mirage ever being "done" as long as Mirage Cloak functions as-is. Other classes are being brought down as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 This is so bias that the Guardian is being overlooked. With less damage, good luck killing a Guardian even in 1v3, let alone 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said: > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > Thief the four people who voted mesmer did not read the new endurance changes on Mirage, and btw chrono doesn't get distortion. So one dodge minimal access to damage avoids mesmers are done completely. > > Somehow I doubt that. For condi Mirages at least. With TB gear, dodge food, and double energy sigils, it makes a notably smaller impact in WvW than it does in sPvP where they will have an even smaller selection of amulets. Not saying they will be S-tier, but I have a hard time imagining a condi Mirage ever being "done" as long as Mirage Cloak functions as-is. Other classes are being brought down as well. Mirage cloak isnt working as is its now a hard choice between ambush or dodging man. You may not know it but mesmers do not have a lot of direct mitigation tools we have great movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Don't see why people think Thief is gonna be the strongest class when: * Healing Skills have been nerfed. * Vigor has been nerfed. * Utilities CD have been increased. * Initiative has been increased. The only thing people think about is Stealth. If anything, this patch has made Stealth even more important for the Thief to keep rather than be offensive because they have to kite even more now with those cooldowns. Evade spamming won't be an option either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurokawaKazuma.8641 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Renegade xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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