My honest feelings about map mob difficulty in PoF

[voltaicbore.8012]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> GW2 being so casual-centric it would make no sense to move to exclude those casuals from expansion content. They probably make a large majority of the player base. Making an expansion harder than PoF/HoT would, IMO, cut down on sales.

 

This would be the only reason why I'd tolerate a downgrade in difficulty in EoD mobs.

 

Otherwise, I completely disagree with your assessment, @"Pockethole.5031". You sounded a bit defensive in some other posts, so I just want to make it clear I'm not judging _you_ as a player. I simply do not share your assessment that PoF open world mobs are excessively difficult, and I also do not share your desire for EoD mobs to be easier.

 

While you, @"Pockethole.5031" , pretty clearly state that the mobs are too _difficult_, I suspect that in reality you'd be okay with them being less _annoying_ rather than straight-up _easier_. By "less annoying," I generally mean "more avoidable." There are a number of other elements that can go into what makes any encounter less annoying, but I'll leave it at that for now.

[mtpelion.4562]

I wouldn't say that PoF mobs are difficult. Rather, I would say they are antagonistically annoying.

 

Between the long lasting conditions that they can instantly reapply, the plethora of blinds, the thick goopy mob density, and the alarming respawn rate, playing solo on PoF maps is a chore. The amount of tedium involved in even basic activities compared to the potential rewards is a scale tipped all the way to "hard pass".

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > GW2 being so casual-centric it would make no sense to move to exclude those casuals from expansion content. They probably make a large majority of the player base. Making an expansion harder than PoF/HoT would, IMO, cut down on sales.

>

> Don't make it harder then. But don't make it easier, because it makes no sense.

>

For my money, the difficulty level of enemies in PoF is fine. It's the aggro radius that annoys me. If that is considered making things easier, then I will disagree with you. ;)

 

[tinchpinch.8651]

OP, I feel ya.

I made a post after PoF came out about not being able to enjoy the vista view since there were a few groups of mobs there and kept respawning after the vista started playing. I first cleared them to view the cutscene, they respawned soon after start so I had to cut my viewing short and fight them off again. Tried again, same thing, so I fought them off and never returned nor viewed the vista in its entirety. Someone worked hard on creating the scenery, but I didn't have the nerves anymore to see it.

 

I don't have a problem fighting off mobs but I'm one of those players who appreciate these little things like the scenery, houses, npcs with their conversations and animals, and well, mindless pew-pew is just not doing it for me. I love to look up close at these things because that's my way of relaxing after a long day. I can rarely do that in HoT or PoF because of the mob density and aggro range. A lot of the times I just want to check what's my next achievement step and here's already something poking my butt.

 

So still after 6+ years I enjoy core Tyria the most. Perhaps that's also partly because of nostalgia.

 

[Sylvyn.4750]

Crossing each map shouldn't feel like you're a lawnmower wading through trash mobs merely to get to a vista, quest giver or increasing numbers of collection items (looking at you Skyscale), then having to cut the same path on the way back out because the grass already grew tall again...that's just boring repetitiveness. I guess that's why I enjoy WvW, because the location and density of enemies are in constant flux, as are their professions, builds and skill levels.

[WorldofBay.8160]

> @"Sylvyn.4750" said:

> Crossing each map shouldn't feel like you're a lawnmower wading through trash mobs merely to get to a vista, quest giver or increasing numbers of collection items (looking at you Skyscale), then having to cut the same path on the way back out because the grass already grew tall again...that's just boring repetitiveness. I guess that's why I enjoy WvW, because the location and density of enemies are in constant flux, as are their professions, builds and skill levels.

 

100% agree

 

additionally many many many spots in PoF look like they have enemies just for the sake of annoying me. there is no reason for them to be there.

i always wonder how all the carnivores in the elona desert find food when there aren't any plants around to feed herbivores.

plant -> herbivore [-> carnivore]*x -> apex predator (most of the stuff we have to kill are apex predators)

each '->' divides the usable food roughly by 10, meaning for each sand shark (which supposedly is a carnivore) if there arent any carnivore stages in between there need to be plants equal 100 times the sand sharks body mass available for him to survive.

[vicky.9751]

The stuff hits hard, and it does seem like if you get dismounted in a forged or branded area, its game over. This was pretty much the same in HoT. But despite this being the case, i never think the option is to literally make the game kitten. Maybe just reduce the aggro range like somebody else posted above.

[LuRkEr.9462]

PoF mobs aren't that difficult if you have the basics of dodging. There is a big difference when it comes to core tyria and then HoT and PoF. In the expansions they expected people to dodge and avoid telegraphed abilities, if you don't you get punished much harder. They also have more health so if you don't know your class well enough the fights will be much longer.

 

I am fine with their difficulty but I don't think they should raise the difficulty at all for future expansions, its nice not to just steam roll everything.

[WorldofBay.8160]

> @"vicky.9751" said:

> The stuff hits hard, and it does seem like if you get dismounted in a forged or branded area, its game over.

 

well uhm no. a few forged hit hard but once you know which ones forged areas are only annoying because of the snipers' aggro range forcing you to clean the entire camp or run for a looong time just to get out of combat. on the branded side, unless in an event, i've yet to see a real threat. maybe ogres but mostly because they can tank nearly as much as a veteran of the other types.

 

except if you're on a glassy build. but open world that lets you solo glassy without having mastered your class definitely is too easy as it renders every non-glassy build useless and removes stat/build diversity.

[otto.5684]

> @"radda.8920" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"radda.8920" said:

> > > > @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> > > > -L2P your build

> > > > I am playing. I dodge and use the arsenal I have. And I still feel they are unnecessarily hard.

> > > > -then you are lying

> > > > Just like the rest of other humans, when something hurts me, it's my fault for existing. You always want to blame the thing least important to you.

> > > >

> > > > I didn't say I want to one-shot everything. Did you read what I wrote? I wrote like so: "wanting the game to be just a millimeter, a smidge, a tiny bit, a single pixel easier?"

> > > > For wishing a small quality of life change, I get judged as if I'm absolutely kitten at this game. Then I have no Idea how I've completed every story chapter until LS4 (and to top it off, with varying classes/specs).

> > > > Basically everything is my fault. Ok. Let's go with that. No argument here.

> > >

> > > no frankly, i don't understand how you can have difficulty in pof

> > > it is almost impossible to fail metas because they are so simple, even the bounties, I hardly failed a single one

> > > There is absolutely no form of challenge on pof, we are light years away from the level of HOT

> > >

> > > I think you have to review your whole way of playing in question because if cantha is much simpler than pof, we will end up on a pokemon level child's play.

> > > Sincerely if EoD is as easy as you ask, I see no point in buying it

> >

> > I somewhat disagree. The djin are relatively hard. And that is not my opinion. When Anet showed statistics, earth djin was the mob with highest win rate against players, with 44% win rate. It could make to silver 3 in sPvP :p

> >

> > With exception of the 2 ranged units in HoT (the frog leap and the land arrow damage), I would say the difficulty is about equal. PoF is just... empty. There are barely anything on the maps beside scattered mobs.

> >

> > If you can make it to platinum in sPvP (whatever you want to put as PvE equivalent) open world will be super easy to you, regardless. It is designed for silver skill players to have a good time. And it makes sense, since majority of players are between mid silver to mid gold. And thus Anet designs the content so that average skill players are challenged enough to have fun.

>

> yes maybe djinn and sometimes hydra bounties are fun to do, a little challenge. The rest is for players who spend their time spamming 1

> But I hope ,we will have events and metas much harder with EoD like during the release of the first expansion ( much more cooperation and organization).

> So quite the opposite as requested by the author of this topic.

> If cantha is as simple as he wants, I would be really disappointed, probably the last expansion so...

 

Same here. I dunno why we moved away from some HoT designs. VB and AB are viewed very highly by most players. I most definitely do not want another PoF designed map, ever. Good news is Anet seems to have moved away from these designs. None of the last 4 maps had hearts. I greatly dislike the last map, but the three previous ones were all pretty good.

[radda.8920]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > @"radda.8920" said:

> > So sorry, you already have most of the game for you. It would be nice to focus on several types of players for the expansion..

>

> Why would anet want to get less sales by focusing on a minority (you can deny this and that would be a hoot!)? That seems foolish. If they listen to people like you, the game will not be difficult. It will simply be annoying as "difficulty" usually means pumping enemies full of health and damage with the only purpose being to kill the player. Killing the player, if the developers try, is ridiculously easy. Until you can recall the fight from memory, of course. Cue raids. And before you embarrass yourself, no, i don't want to one-shot everything. Pfft...

 

they would have less sales because they made the mistake of completely dropping this part of the community after HOT (massive content nerf)

The only remaining `` HM '' players were completely abandonned with the end of the raids, 2 years ago.

So of course they have more interest in focusing on the casuals players since by dint of adding content for them, they have lost all the other types of players:

-The ''hm'' pve players

-and the majority of the pvp / wvw players.

I totally disapprove their choice ... I think that if they had managed to mix several types of content, the number of players on gw2 would be much greater

 

And, I never said hm content meant more life and more damage.

It means mobs / bosses with interesting mechanics that make you think and adapt your build / your movements. Metas that require organization and coordination otherwise they will be stranded. And tequalt / triple terror level world bosses , No HP sponges without difficulty like drakkar.

Yes the total opposite of drizzlewood coast.

On pof, there is none of that, it is even impossible to miss an event if you have enough players and the monsters are just numerous to give an illusion of difficulty ..

In short I want the level of HOT, THE HOT from the start, not the current one for the next expansion.

 

With pof, we lost the whole soul of a mmo, we even no longer need to ask for the help of the other players (except bounties) Everyone plays in their corner like on a single player game. We play next to someone and no longer WITH him.

With HOT, it was totally different, we were always looking for people to improve our tactics and to advance in the game

 

(sorry if my english is not perfect, i am not english)

 

 

 

[Balsa.3951]

I don't feel the mobs are to hard but agro range that's definitely to high.

also higher agro range bcs mounts makes no sense. mounts cant be cced and they can escape easily. a longer agro range only affect ppl who are dis mounted.

 

BUT anet will not change that in pof anymore anyway

[kharmin.7683]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Same here. I dunno why we moved away from some HoT designs. VB and AB are viewed very highly by most players.

I highly suspect your statement that these maps are viewed highly by MOST players.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"radda.8920" said:

 

> On pof, there is none of that, it is even impossible to miss an event if you have enough players and the monsters are just numerous to give an illusion of difficulty ..

> In short I want the level of HOT, THE HOT from the start, not the current one for the next expansion.

>

> With pof, we lost the whole soul of a mmo, we even no longer need to ask for the help of the other players (except bounties) Everyone plays in their corner like on a single player game. We play next to someone and no longer WITH him.

> With HOT, it was totally different, we were always looking for people to improve our tactics and to advance in the game

In my opinion, it seems that Anet pulled back from HoT because of the backlash from a lot of the casual base and seeing that casuals appear to be their main customers, it makes more sense to me for Anet to cater content toward what brings them the most money.

 

Not every player was looking for other players to improve tactics. Not being able to advance solo in HoT lost a lot of players. GW2 has long been an MMO where it is not required to play with other players. HoT, on release, broke that style and Anet suffered for it as many players left. PoF is proof that they had to change or risk losing more players. Pulling back on raids, too, is an indicator of this since raids were released with HoT and since haven't really been shown much support if any. Strike missions were the compromise, in my opinion, and even they seem to have lost their appeal.

 

Anet knows better than anyone here what makes up the majority of their customer base and what generates the most revenue. I don't think "HoT on release" type of content is what their data supports.

[Antycypator.9874]

Easier than they're now in PoF? Maybe just delete mobs at all, because I think they can't go any easier. It's just... HoT mobs have low health poll but also high damage. PoF mobs are tankier but they rely more on conditions (weakness, slow, cripple).

 

I think creating mobs like that isn't the right way. Drizzlewood Coast is the good example how mobs should be created — damage, CC, mobility, conditions, blocks, reflect. Almost everything.

Oh, I also forget. If you play a raid-meta build, then be prepared to die.

[otto.5684]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Same here. I dunno why we moved away from some HoT designs. VB and AB are viewed very highly by most players.

> I highly suspect your statement that these maps are viewed highly by MOST players.

 

When people criticize HoT they typically mention TD. When I see favorite maps list, AB and VB tend to come out a lot.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > Same here. I dunno why we moved away from some HoT designs. VB and AB are viewed very highly by most players.

> > I highly suspect your statement that these maps are viewed highly by MOST players.

>

> When people criticize HoT they typically mention TD. When I see favorite maps list, AB and VB tend to come out a lot.

 

I get that. It also depends on the definition for "viewed very highly". I think that the maps are very well done. I don't enjoy playing them.

 

EDIT: It also depends on whom you ask. Your circle of players might share the same opinion as you as would mine (see: confirmation bias). In either case, I don't believe that you or I can say with certainty that "most" players view HoT maps highly.

[Dante.1508]

I'd prefer all maps return to GW2 tyria settings it was a far more fun experience.

[otto.5684]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > Same here. I dunno why we moved away from some HoT designs. VB and AB are viewed very highly by most players.

> > > I highly suspect your statement that these maps are viewed highly by MOST players.

> >

> > When people criticize HoT they typically mention TD. When I see favorite maps list, AB and VB tend to come out a lot.

>

> I get that. It also depends on the definition for "viewed very highly". I think that the maps are very well done. I don't enjoy playing them.

>

> EDIT: It also depends on whom you ask. Your circle of players might share the same opinion as you as would mine (see: confirmation bias). In either case, I don't believe that you or I can say with certainty that "most" players view HoT maps highly.

 

Or otherwise. If I say that PoF maps suck, can you proof this statement wrong? This is why I said I see AB and VB come out in the forums as favorite maps a lot. I did not say it is conclusive statistics, cuz even Anet do not have that. Or even my personal favorite maps.

 

What is for sure, is the Hearts model, followed in PoF, is being ditched, in favor of designs similar to HoT. BM is close to AB and VB in design. DF and last map are similar to DS. That is 4 out of last 5 maps being similar to HoT designs. For a game entering its 9th year, why do you think that we are going back to designs from 5 years ago?

[kharmin.7683]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > > Same here. I dunno why we moved away from some HoT designs. VB and AB are viewed very highly by most players.

> > > > I highly suspect your statement that these maps are viewed highly by MOST players.

> > >

> > > When people criticize HoT they typically mention TD. When I see favorite maps list, AB and VB tend to come out a lot.

> >

> > I get that. It also depends on the definition for "viewed very highly". I think that the maps are very well done. I don't enjoy playing them.

> >

> > EDIT: It also depends on whom you ask. Your circle of players might share the same opinion as you as would mine (see: confirmation bias). In either case, I don't believe that you or I can say with certainty that "most" players view HoT maps highly.

>

> Or otherwise. If I say that PoF maps suck, can you proof this statement wrong? This is why I said I see AB and VB come out in the forums as favorite maps a lot. I did not say it is conclusive statistics, cuz even Anet do not have that. Or even my personal favorite maps.

 

I am only debating the fact that you laid out. You said....

 

>@"otto.5684" said:

> VB and AB are viewed very highly by most players.

 

I don't believe that these maps are "viewed highly by most players" and was looking for your support for that statement. The forums in no way represent "most players". So, how can you justify that point?

 

Actually, there was a lot of contention on the forums when HoT originally released. One could argue, using your point, that most players at that time were opposed to what was released.

[Rokeb.3815]

> @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> I wouldn't say that PoF mobs are difficult. Rather, I would say they are antagonistically annoying.

>

> Between the long lasting conditions that they can instantly reapply, the plethora of blinds, the thick goopy mob density, and the alarming respawn rate, playing solo on PoF maps is a chore. The amount of tedium involved in even basic activities compared to the potential rewards is a scale tipped all the way to "hard pass".

 

This sums it up very well. There is a difference between challenging and annoying. Add into the mix that the distance between waypoints is often very large and making any progress in a PoF map can be (but isn't always) rather glacial. If you do actually die, it's doubly annoying as it can take to so long to get back to where you were.

 

A *little* easier on the respawn and the aggro distance would make a big difference.

[Ashen.2907]

The aggro range can be annoying at times but I think that the mobs could be a bit more difficult otherwise.

[Flasterko.4087]

Mobs are very annoying, I agree with you guys and girls about that part. It really destroy exploration experience. I wouldnt mind if they stay like they are, just would be nice if they were made little bit less annoying.

[Wistfallen.7340]

You should show what sort of builds you're running before complaining about the difficulty.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Wistfallen.7340" said:

> You should show what sort of builds you're running before complaining about the difficulty.

 

Difficulty is always going to be relative. Some players aren't physically able to be more efficient than others which has nothing to do with their build. Some players are simply "better" at these kinds of games than others and can do well in harder content with less META builds. There are many factors involved that relate to the level of difficulty for individual players.

 

Builds matter, but aren't the only factor that should be addressed.