A roamer's plea to balance stealth/reveal abilities next

[Voltekka.2375]

From wiki:

 

"Death Shroud is the necromancer's **unique mechanic** providing some passive benefits and replacing the necromancer's normal weapon skills with a fixed set of Death Shroud skills. It is fueled by life force and can be entered even while under control effects. The necromancer's elite specializations replace this mechanic - Reapers enter a Reaper's Shroud instead, while Scourges enter Desert Shroud (Desert Shroud does not grant new weapon skills, although it can trigger traits with "enter shroud" and "exit shroud" conditions e.g. Spiteful Spirit).

 

"Stealth, also known as cloaking or invisibility, is an **effect** which allows the stealthed character to be invisible to enemy players and avoid being detected by hostile NPCs."

 

The comparison is invalid.

[Heibi.4251]

> @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > Sic 'em does not REVEAL. Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy. And the bonus damage is 25% in WvW and PvP when merged. It prevents stealth for the duration stated. So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have. And the thieves who stay stealthed for so long that they might as well be permanently invisible at least keeping them visible for 6s helps mitigate that. And I consider most thieves who rely on stealth to be not very skilled. I kill most of them once they can't steatlh. Unless of course they use all the low cool down escape skills that most try to carry.

> >

> > So if you want stealth to be better my suggestions are as follows:

> > 1. Must walk to use stealth. No one can be truly stealth while they run around.

> > 2. Once in combat you cannot stealth again until combat has ended.

> > 3. Just like everyone else inside a keep you are marked and cannot stealth after it is taken for the specified RI. Makes no sense for anyone to be marked while the thief can stay invisible for so long.

> > 4. Oh, on a side note: Get rid of the 5 person portal or reduce it to only the thief being able to use it.

>

> ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): Command. Your pet rushes at your foe, **revealing** them and dealing increased damage.

> Effect (10s): 40% Damage, 40% Movement Speed

> **Revealed** (6s): You cannot stealth

> Range: 2,000

>

> Sic Em' by definition reveals and the only counter to it is to never come out of stealth. Your suggestions are bad. Deadeye is the only class that abuses stealth to an unfair extent.

>

> As far as adjustments that need to be made to stealth - I think it is mostly fine. I believe marked is OP and should be removed from the game. The individual class reveal skills are fine as is, but making them all more like DH pull where there is an opportunity to dodge would be nice. I think stealthing with bound dodge or the rifle trait is unfair because they cannot be interrupted AND can be used multiple times in a row. The deadeye skill that removes revealed should also be removed and there should be a GM trait added to Shadow Arts that removes revealed some way or another - that way the entire trait line isn't invalidated by one button. This could easily be done by moving Cloaked in Shadows to Master tier where it belongs and removing one of the meh traits that are currently there.

 

You've got to read the actual full explanation of Sic'em. It DOES NOT reveal. You need a VALID TARGET. So if the thief is in stealth and you try and use it, it will not go off. Once the thief comes out of stealth and can TARGET him you can use Sic 'em and he cannot go back into stealth for 6 seconds. PERIOD. I have played ranger for a very long time, I know what it can do and not do. ANET's description in the skill is not fully spelled out.: Here are the other WIKI notes you forgot.:

 

Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy.

If the pet is in passive mode, activating this shout will have the same effect as the 'Attack my Target' [F1] command - It'll make the pet attack your targeted foe, and once said foe is defeated, the pet will be back to passive mode.

Using this command while commanding your pet to use its unique skill [F2] will cancel the unique skill, but the "Sic 'Em!" (effect) will now persist if you give commands to your pet.

While using the minor trait Elevated Bond in the soulbeast specialization, the skill gives only 25% bonus damage in PvP and WvW while being in Beastmode.

[kash.9213]

> @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > > Sic 'em does not REVEAL. Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy. And the bonus damage is 25% in WvW and PvP when merged. It prevents stealth for the duration stated. So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have. And the thieves who stay stealthed for so long that they might as well be permanently invisible at least keeping them visible for 6s helps mitigate that. And I consider most thieves who rely on stealth to be not very skilled. I kill most of them once they can't steatlh. Unless of course they use all the low cool down escape skills that most try to carry.

> > >

> > > So if you want stealth to be better my suggestions are as follows:

> > > 1. Must walk to use stealth. No one can be truly stealth while they run around.

> > > 2. Once in combat you cannot stealth again until combat has ended.

> > > 3. Just like everyone else inside a keep you are marked and cannot stealth after it is taken for the specified RI. Makes no sense for anyone to be marked while the thief can stay invisible for so long.

> > > 4. Oh, on a side note: Get rid of the 5 person portal or reduce it to only the thief being able to use it.

> >

> > ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): Command. Your pet rushes at your foe, **revealing** them and dealing increased damage.

> > Effect (10s): 40% Damage, 40% Movement Speed

> > **Revealed** (6s): You cannot stealth

> > Range: 2,000

> >

> > Sic Em' by definition reveals and the only counter to it is to never come out of stealth. Your suggestions are bad. Deadeye is the only class that abuses stealth to an unfair extent.

> >

> > As far as adjustments that need to be made to stealth - I think it is mostly fine. I believe marked is OP and should be removed from the game. The individual class reveal skills are fine as is, but making them all more like DH pull where there is an opportunity to dodge would be nice. I think stealthing with bound dodge or the rifle trait is unfair because they cannot be interrupted AND can be used multiple times in a row. The deadeye skill that removes revealed should also be removed and there should be a GM trait added to Shadow Arts that removes revealed some way or another - that way the entire trait line isn't invalidated by one button. This could easily be done by moving Cloaked in Shadows to Master tier where it belongs and removing one of the meh traits that are currently there.

>

> You've got to read the actual full explanation of Sic'em. It DOES NOT reveal. You need a VALID TARGET. So if the thief is in stealth and you try and use it, it will not go off. Once the thief comes out of stealth and can TARGET him you can use Sic 'em and he cannot go back into stealth for 6 seconds. PERIOD. I have played ranger for a very long time, I know what it can do and not do. ANET's description in the skill is not fully spelled out.: Here are the other WIKI notes you forgot.:

>

> Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy.

> If the pet is in passive mode, activating this shout will have the same effect as the 'Attack my Target' [F1] command - It'll make the pet attack your targeted foe, and once said foe is defeated, the pet will be back to passive mode.

> Using this command while commanding your pet to use its unique skill [F2] will cancel the unique skill, but the "Sic 'Em!" (effect) will now persist if you give commands to your pet.

> While using the minor trait Elevated Bond in the soulbeast specialization, the skill gives only 25% bonus damage in PvP and WvW while being in Beastmode.

 

They need to change the wording on the tool tip to something like "leaving your foe revealed". The utility itself is fair enough and puts the foe into a Revealed state so they can't go into stealth.

[Heibi.4251]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > > @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > > > Sic 'em does not REVEAL. Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy. And the bonus damage is 25% in WvW and PvP when merged. It prevents stealth for the duration stated. So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have. And the thieves who stay stealthed for so long that they might as well be permanently invisible at least keeping them visible for 6s helps mitigate that. And I consider most thieves who rely on stealth to be not very skilled. I kill most of them once they can't steatlh. Unless of course they use all the low cool down escape skills that most try to carry.

> > > >

> > > > So if you want stealth to be better my suggestions are as follows:

> > > > 1. Must walk to use stealth. No one can be truly stealth while they run around.

> > > > 2. Once in combat you cannot stealth again until combat has ended.

> > > > 3. Just like everyone else inside a keep you are marked and cannot stealth after it is taken for the specified RI. Makes no sense for anyone to be marked while the thief can stay invisible for so long.

> > > > 4. Oh, on a side note: Get rid of the 5 person portal or reduce it to only the thief being able to use it.

> > >

> > > ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): Command. Your pet rushes at your foe, **revealing** them and dealing increased damage.

> > > Effect (10s): 40% Damage, 40% Movement Speed

> > > **Revealed** (6s): You cannot stealth

> > > Range: 2,000

> > >

> > > Sic Em' by definition reveals and the only counter to it is to never come out of stealth. Your suggestions are bad. Deadeye is the only class that abuses stealth to an unfair extent.

> > >

> > > As far as adjustments that need to be made to stealth - I think it is mostly fine. I believe marked is OP and should be removed from the game. The individual class reveal skills are fine as is, but making them all more like DH pull where there is an opportunity to dodge would be nice. I think stealthing with bound dodge or the rifle trait is unfair because they cannot be interrupted AND can be used multiple times in a row. The deadeye skill that removes revealed should also be removed and there should be a GM trait added to Shadow Arts that removes revealed some way or another - that way the entire trait line isn't invalidated by one button. This could easily be done by moving Cloaked in Shadows to Master tier where it belongs and removing one of the meh traits that are currently there.

> >

> > You've got to read the actual full explanation of Sic'em. It DOES NOT reveal. You need a VALID TARGET. So if the thief is in stealth and you try and use it, it will not go off. Once the thief comes out of stealth and can TARGET him you can use Sic 'em and he cannot go back into stealth for 6 seconds. PERIOD. I have played ranger for a very long time, I know what it can do and not do. ANET's description in the skill is not fully spelled out.: Here are the other WIKI notes you forgot.:

> >

> > Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy.

> > If the pet is in passive mode, activating this shout will have the same effect as the 'Attack my Target' [F1] command - It'll make the pet attack your targeted foe, and once said foe is defeated, the pet will be back to passive mode.

> > Using this command while commanding your pet to use its unique skill [F2] will cancel the unique skill, but the "Sic 'Em!" (effect) will now persist if you give commands to your pet.

> > While using the minor trait Elevated Bond in the soulbeast specialization, the skill gives only 25% bonus damage in PvP and WvW while being in Beastmode.

>

> They need to change the wording on the tool tip to something like "leaving your foe revealed". The utility itself is fair enough and puts the foe into a Revealed state so they can't go into stealth.

 

Exactly. Because it doesn't work the way it is written. Needing a target first is it's major limitation. And you can't have a target if you can't see it.

[kash.9213]

> @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > > > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > > > > Sic 'em does not REVEAL. Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy. And the bonus damage is 25% in WvW and PvP when merged. It prevents stealth for the duration stated. So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have. And the thieves who stay stealthed for so long that they might as well be permanently invisible at least keeping them visible for 6s helps mitigate that. And I consider most thieves who rely on stealth to be not very skilled. I kill most of them once they can't steatlh. Unless of course they use all the low cool down escape skills that most try to carry.

> > > > >

> > > > > So if you want stealth to be better my suggestions are as follows:

> > > > > 1. Must walk to use stealth. No one can be truly stealth while they run around.

> > > > > 2. Once in combat you cannot stealth again until combat has ended.

> > > > > 3. Just like everyone else inside a keep you are marked and cannot stealth after it is taken for the specified RI. Makes no sense for anyone to be marked while the thief can stay invisible for so long.

> > > > > 4. Oh, on a side note: Get rid of the 5 person portal or reduce it to only the thief being able to use it.

> > > >

> > > > ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): Command. Your pet rushes at your foe, **revealing** them and dealing increased damage.

> > > > Effect (10s): 40% Damage, 40% Movement Speed

> > > > **Revealed** (6s): You cannot stealth

> > > > Range: 2,000

> > > >

> > > > Sic Em' by definition reveals and the only counter to it is to never come out of stealth. Your suggestions are bad. Deadeye is the only class that abuses stealth to an unfair extent.

> > > >

> > > > As far as adjustments that need to be made to stealth - I think it is mostly fine. I believe marked is OP and should be removed from the game. The individual class reveal skills are fine as is, but making them all more like DH pull where there is an opportunity to dodge would be nice. I think stealthing with bound dodge or the rifle trait is unfair because they cannot be interrupted AND can be used multiple times in a row. The deadeye skill that removes revealed should also be removed and there should be a GM trait added to Shadow Arts that removes revealed some way or another - that way the entire trait line isn't invalidated by one button. This could easily be done by moving Cloaked in Shadows to Master tier where it belongs and removing one of the meh traits that are currently there.

> > >

> > > You've got to read the actual full explanation of Sic'em. It DOES NOT reveal. You need a VALID TARGET. So if the thief is in stealth and you try and use it, it will not go off. Once the thief comes out of stealth and can TARGET him you can use Sic 'em and he cannot go back into stealth for 6 seconds. PERIOD. I have played ranger for a very long time, I know what it can do and not do. ANET's description in the skill is not fully spelled out.: Here are the other WIKI notes you forgot.:

> > >

> > > Cannot be used without a valid targeted enemy.

> > > If the pet is in passive mode, activating this shout will have the same effect as the 'Attack my Target' [F1] command - It'll make the pet attack your targeted foe, and once said foe is defeated, the pet will be back to passive mode.

> > > Using this command while commanding your pet to use its unique skill [F2] will cancel the unique skill, but the "Sic 'Em!" (effect) will now persist if you give commands to your pet.

> > > While using the minor trait Elevated Bond in the soulbeast specialization, the skill gives only 25% bonus damage in PvP and WvW while being in Beastmode.

> >

> > They need to change the wording on the tool tip to something like "leaving your foe revealed". The utility itself is fair enough and puts the foe into a Revealed state so they can't go into stealth.

>

> Exactly. Because it doesn't work the way it is written. Needing a target first is it's major limitation. **And you can't have a target if you can't see it.**

 

Being a DE most of time who needs a valid target unobstructed and in line of sight to Mark, with a lot riding off of that Mark, I try to stay conditioned to be fast and mostly precise with both Target Closest and Left Mouse targeting before people stealth or get themselves body blocked by squads, walls, and terrain. I can usually deal with stealth with things like Cloak n Dagger or a questimated Stealth Attack or with my area blinds that also siphon but line of site and pathing issues in places can snowball along with stealth to make things frustrating sometimes.

[Nirari.4827]

One big problem for much ppl on stealth is: stealthed pll. Are. not. gankable.

I understand the frustration.

 

I see the "fair" fights everyday, which ppl are calling for.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > I've stealthed past people without being invisible

> > Level 100 thief.

>

> Honestly it's mostly standing at the bottom of a hill or cliff or taking an alternative route with LoS.> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

>

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > >

> > > Who hurt you? I've stealthed past people without being invisible because a lot of players are completely unaware of their surroundings, these are often the same player who spout this "remove stealth from the game" nonsense.

> >

> > It's not about 'hurting you', it's about giving each players an equal fair chance of healthy competitive experience. Wouldn't you agree?

>

> Someone clearly hurt this poor lad/lass/other for them to complain as much as they have. If you want to talk about fair chances then marked is incredibly unfair to any class that uses stealth as it's defence as there's massive no go areas where they are crippled for using a mechanic.

>

> What you cannot understand despite all this time on the forums is that there's a difference between a mechanic being broken and an inept balance team, stealth problems have mostly been the latter.

 

with their speed and long range shadowstep, thieves do not need stealth to run away. They need stealth to run away if their opponent does not go down in one hit and threatens to do any damage.

 

Thieves are broken. Stealth is broken. Both should be banned. That simple.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Heibi.4251" said:

>

> So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have.

 

And that is the wrong way to use it. You shouldn't be placing Reveal on them as soon as they reappear, you should be doing it right before they try to re-enter Stealth. Against a D/P for example, the best way to punish a Thief is to use Sic 'Em right when they try to leap through Pistol #5's Smoke Field. In the case of Rifle DE because they have Stealth on dodge and a Reveal removal, it can be a little more tricky but it's the same idea. You want to be using it at an attempt of re-entry, not as soon as they become visible.

 

Of course this isn't always true, sometimes yes, applying Reveal sooner is better. Just making the point that dumping everything on them as soon as they're visible isn't the best way to deal with them.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Hhoooooo boy... I think we need to simplify this game even further than it already is boys'n'girls...

I bet if you even offered lessons on how to beat thieves with 100% success rate (or any other class they hate) there will be people who refuse it and prefer the other road due to the deep hatred. That's how deep seated it is. Need to let go and breathe and learn like the rest of us managed to do and move on and progress and enjoy. Also live the multi class life and enjoy what each has to offer. Just like Tony the tiger says, they're grreeeaaatt! Honestly for all the stuff I've loved or hated in the game, there is a dev that I appreciate who put the work and idea into it no matter how good or bad (in my perspective) it was because they always manage to stoke the flames lol. Bland games are boring, a hot poker gets you dancing.

[Hannelore.8153]

Stealth is just bad and should be reworked completely. I've written several posts about this, but Thieves don't realise how much being balanced around the broken mechanics of stealth is what makes their class weak, and why they don't get nice things.

 

However, I don't agree with people who constantly say it should be removed, that's like cutting a limb off because its hurting.

[Shroud.2307]

The problem with Stealth is that it is objectively poorly designed. There is counter play in it's application in some cases, others there aren't, but there is none once the individual has Stealthed. "Intuition" or an educated assumption does not = counter play. That is why more sources of Reveal have made their way in to the game over time - to give people a way to punish builds that are overloaded with Stealth.

 

The truly unfortunate thing about it is that it is not a enjoyable mechanic to play against for the majority of people and Reveal is equally as unenjoyable for the Stealth-e. And because ANet will not remove or rework Stealth, which I'm about 99.9% sure of particularly due to GW2 being the age it is and having the introduction of Deadeye with PoF, they will only add more Reveal or adjust numbers as time goes on.

 

It is a fact of life and the best way around it is to not play builds that are heavily reliant on Stealth, unless you accept that there are things you will play against that are as frustrating for you as it is for your opponent to fight you.

[AliamRationem.5172]

There's really no defending the way stealth works in this game. It's pretty insane that they've allowed this to continue for so long.

[Rod.6581]

No, this implementation of stealth is bad and needs to be redesigned.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

if anything, stealth should get knocked out of this game. or reveals given to each other attack. the stealthing thief-mesmer-ranger oneshotting-wannabes and the portal-into-keeps trash is the worst thing existing in this format. completely against any teamplay, far too easy to play, useless for wvw. but the best farm, since the rewards for anything else are really bad.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I didn't quite get your sentence about "best farm", what are you referring to?

[jpsssss.7530]

So you want to steal cake, to eat said cake, and go uncontested with that? Sorry but thief has lots of stealth, can remove revealed, and has too much mobility... When i can blink around like a thief can on any class, then you can ask for indirect thief buffs. Additionally, you're asking to remove or nerf examples of counterplay to stealth, without offering an alternative to stealth counterplay...

[Ben.2160]

Stealth sure does need a good looking at. We had a perma-stealth rifle deadeye lurking in our tower (SE desert). Literally he'd vanish to reappear for about 0.1 of a second halfway around the tower. He'd hide in out of LOS spots just to re-stealth when any got close. He would wait till someone was alone out of stealth, pew pew for half there health to instantly vanish and reappear a fair distance away for the second shot to down them. Straight back to stealth to stomp. I was on my ranger, I could not reveal him with sic em as he simply used his elite skill to loose it and off he'd go again. and again and again. In the end he got over confident when some of his server mates destroyed the wall and we got him. I've seen him many times. He always stuck to the south Desert, always abusing stealth to attack people. Only he'd tend to slip up with over confidence. Ie go for a stealth stomp with an ally reaper using death shroud to cleave atop their downed ally.

 

Sorry, this type of build is without argument the most obnoxious, most annoying, most pathetic build imaginable! Least since the patch the one shot capability of this build has gone but it simply should not exist. Near perma stealth, very high mobility, a strong burst it's just frustrating. Least this build is now not so prevalent as it once was. I remember the time the perma-stealth dead eye was everywhere (shudder). Thing is I've faced many thieves since the patch many of whom running daredevil or core. Who don't abuse stealth. Now these have been more interesting and fair fights. I even managed to get a few high level systematic abuse players on their thieves, which I consider a very good achievement. When fighting I want to be able to see my opponent, not having to look around constantly when they vanish into thin air or click on them when they do reappear. Is deadeye/stealth the only broken build/mechanic? No. But the ability to spam it constantly to almost no counter play is the issue. Especially when thieves already have plenty of evades and escapes options to aid them in a fight. Stealth should be of limited use(non combat, outside of enemy towers/keeps) and sparingly as a panic button in combat.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> The problem with Stealth is that it is objectively poorly designed. There is counter play in it's application in some cases, others there aren't, but there is none once the individual has Stealthed. "Intuition" or an educated assumption does not = counter play. That is why more sources of Reveal have made their way in to the game over time - to give people a way to punish builds that are overloaded with Stealth.

>

> The truly unfortunate thing about it is that it is not a enjoyable mechanic to play against for the majority of people and Reveal is equally as unenjoyable for the Stealth-e. And because ANet will not remove or rework Stealth, which I'm about 99.9% sure of particularly due to GW2 being the age it is and having the introduction of Deadeye with PoF, they will only add more Reveal or adjust numbers as time goes on.

>

> It is a fact of life and the best way around it is to not play builds that are heavily reliant on Stealth, unless you accept that there are things you will play against that are as frustrating for you as it is for your opponent to fight you.

 

**+1**

 

Bad Design is Bad Design

 

-related note- Guild Wars 2 Stealth is the most Toxic design in gaming especially for continual 8 years+ and the reason why it continues to get bad press as Anet continually see absolutely nothing wrong with it

[Svarty.8019]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > @"Heibi.4251" said:

> >

> > So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have.

>

> the best way to punish a Thief is to use Sic 'Em right when they try to leap through Pistol #5's Smoke Field.

 

Thanks for the tip, but the superheroic reaction-time required to pull off this miracle is not something most humans possess.

It's certainly not a mechanic appropriate for a game played on the internet ... which has... you know... delays.

I get that counterplay *can* exist, you see it on internet videos by especially good players who probably live near the servers, but honestly ... not in reality, not for normal folks.

For normal players you see the thief put his circle down and by the time you've hit your Sic 'Em, you don't have a target anymore.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> -related note- Guild Wars 2 Stealth is the most Toxic design in gaming especially for continual 8 years+ and the reason why it continues to get bad press

 

That's just a made up lie to push your own opinion.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > -related note- Guild Wars 2 Stealth is the most Toxic design in gaming especially for continual 8 years+ and the reason why it continues to get bad press

>

> That's just a made up lie to push your own opinion.

 

you are entitled to your opinion and i respect it

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist.

 

No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it?

[Doug.4930]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> Thanks for the tip, but the superheroic reaction-time required to pull off this miracle is not something most humans possess.

> For normal players you see the thief put his circle down and by the time you've hit your Sic 'Em, you don't have a target anymore.

 

I've actually made a thread in the past suggesting that stealth through combo abilities shouldn't stack with stealth gained through skills as a fair nerf.

 

But super human reflexes? The average human reaction time is 200 milliseconds, the combined cast time for black powder + heart seeker is 1250 milliseconds assuming they queue the skills perfectly. Sicem is an instant cast. Even with a ping of 500ms you would still have a window that's three times as long as the average persons reaction time to press a single button and screw their combo. So a person running with 500 ping who's twice as slow as your average joe in reaction time would still be able pull that off.

 

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist.

>

> No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it?

 

To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > Thanks for the tip, but the superheroic reaction-time required to pull off this miracle is not something most humans possess.

> > For normal players you see the thief put his circle down and by the time you've hit your Sic 'Em, you don't have a target anymore.

>

> I've actually made a thread in the past suggesting that stealth through combo abilities shouldn't stack with stealth gained through skills as a fair nerf.

>

> But super human reflexes? The average human reaction time is 200 milliseconds, the combined cast time for black powder + heart seeker is 1250 milliseconds assuming they queue the skills perfectly. Sicem is an instant cast. Even with a ping of 500ms you would still have a window that's three times as long as the average persons reaction time to press a single button and screw their combo. So a person running with 500 ping who's twice as slow as your average joe in reaction time would still be able pull that off.

>

 

What I was thinking... Lol.

 

I am literally physically disabled, play with a trackpad and reverse keybinds on a laptop, and I can pull this off almost 100% of the time. I understand everyone is different and for one reason or another it may be harder for some people, but there is a _long_ window of opportunity to punish that particular combo.

 

A Daredevil using Bound to dodge through Pistol #5 cannot be interrupted because it's an evade frame. Same with dodging for Stealth with Deadeye and Silent Scope. _Leaping_ through it with Heartseeker though, that can be interrupted and/or prevented.

A great way to maintain pressure on Thieves doing this and especially ones using the Smoke Screen utility is to jump inside the smoke field as quickly as you can. They're very likely to hit you while comboing with it which will Reveal them.

 

A Thief won't care much if they spike you from Stealth and you put Reveal on them. They've already been Revealed by their attack, they were prepared for it and won't have a hard time waiting it out. Same if their Stealth just wears off. Punish them when they're trying to re-enter, it may take practice against certain builds but it will make you a lot more dangerous to them.