LadyKitty.6120 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 Totally-super-hell NO! Whoever even suggests it on "it's enforcing the evil meta!" doesn't know history of instanced squad content at all. It's in fact THANKS to Arcdps that off-meta builds are tolerated. Back in 2017 only a few players, mostly the top-end, were using it and like many have already pointed out, commanders threw the blame of ANY failures on someone who was playing an offmeta build even if that player was hardcarrying the squad both mechanic and dps-wise. If you played offmeta, you were first to get kicked (if you somehow even got into the squad to begin with, it was really difficult). If it weren't for Arcdps, Kitty would've prolly quit the game long ago. Without it Kitty wouldn't have been able to test all the builds she has played and meta would also be way narrower than it already is as some effective dps builds would've never been discovered likely. So whoever wants to play outside the meta, you better be thankful that Arcdps is used so widely these days to allow that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naiasonod.9265 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're already skilled and knowledgable about builds, you got there by other routes completely and ARCdps won't actually be telling you much of anything you don't already know other than that this build throws out 35k burst and that build throws out 36.5k burst. You will already know why if you can build that in the first place, and IF YOU CANNOT? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ARCdps can't and won't help you with builds. ARCdps can't and won't help you understand how synergies across trait lines works, how fields and power interactions work or give even the faintest hint at why the numbers are what they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Data is only useful to those that know what it means and understand how it correlates to the actions that yielded it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a 100% useless tool for people that aren't already pretty expert in builds, building and knowing/understanding things. It will give experts data they can use to guide refinements of builds and rotations, and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're simply wrong. Using arcdps gives players their own metric for determining performance. I don't have to wonder whether I performed well or not. I can see the numbers and compare that to my usual performance in the same encounter. I can then change my build and use that same frame of reference for whether or not it's working. How is that not helpful for understanding builds and synergies? > > > > > > > > > > > > You're coming into the use of this tool with a great deal of foreknowledge about how your stats, skills and traitline synergies work however. > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did you acquire that knowledge? You, like the rest of us with a high level of knowledge about such things, have probably spent hundreds of hours out of the game watching videos, reading guides, participating in theorycrafting discussions and trying out countless build arrays, and possibly spending/wasting hundreds of gold on, different gear sets to try to figure out what works, what looks like it should on paper but actually doesn't, what looks like it shouldn't on paper but weirdly does and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > ARCdps is a valuable tool for the exact purpose I specified: experts refining and polishing builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an expert level of knowledge and understanding of how this game's systems work doesn't need ARCdps for jack diddly squat though. You'll be able to put a build together and feel out whether or not its putting out the DPS it should or if its not quite there a lot of the time through sheer, overwhelming experience with what it SHOULD feel like. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having the data is how you go from 35k to 36.5k and work out how to pick up the improvements you couldn't feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > ARCdps won't help you understand the game better though. ARCdps isn't even a tool the game itself references or provides. You won't even hear about it except from other players, and you have to go to third party sites and download it from third party servers to even get ahold of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > The raiding guild I'm in does a lot of training and teaching. The officers try super hard to reach out to people, to get more people into doing ANYTHING more advanced than 'run around core Tyria spamming 1 and dodging only by accident'. They're great people and we all make great use of ARCdps. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's tough to get new players to even download it about half the time. Most common complaint I've seen thus far is that they don't trust Github for whatever usually not-reasonable reason they have, but why should they HAVE to trust Github to play GW2 better? > > > > > > > > > > > > Why in all creation should ANY player have to go outside of the game to find the tools and resources that will enable them to play the game effectively? > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is the game not providing these tools and resources internally and with all the power and integration only the devs could ever hope to provide? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, wrong. A new player isn't going to do 40k on a golem benchmark whether they use arcdps or not. But that doesn't mean that arcdps isn't useful to them. They will still be able to observe how changes to their build and strategy impact their performance. Further, the ability to see the breakdown for each skill allows them to easily tell where their damage is coming from. They don't necessarily need to have a deep understanding of the game's mechanics to tell that if 60% of their damage comes from burning, a trait/skill/etc. that improves burn damage would probably be helpful, for instance. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if you're deliberately being obtuse because it's too painful to admit that I've got a valid point or if you're legitimately incapable of reading, because you're not only addressing what I'm saying, but you're completely failing to acknowledge that nobody comes into this game knowing what the stats, traits and synergies are, mean or how they work at all. > > > > > > > > And there's nothing in the game that teaches players these things. > > > > > > > > You're clearly not new, and it seems to me that your problem is that you've known how these things work for so long that you're like a fish in the water; you're not even aware of the water anymore. You've taken it for granted that these things are 'just known' to you. > > > > > > > > So, I'll ask again; where in the game can I go to learn about Power coefficients as they relate to damage dealt against an armored target? > > > > > > > > Where IN. THE. GAME. can I go to be taught, by the game, how to build my class more effectively for any of the roles that might be expected of me in advanced content? > > > > > > > > Until ARCdps can make build suggestions and critique your damage log, its a tool that is most useful to the people that need it the least. The people that need help the most...well, it can't help them very much at all. > > > > > > > > How, after all, are they supposed to make any kind of informed or useful build choices when nothing in the game tells them anything about...anything, really? > > > > > > > > I don't know about you, but when I talk to someone that's got their stats all over the place and they really just don't understand why it was a terrible plan for them to try to run around having 2 pieces of Soldier, 2 pieces of Nomad and 2 pieces of Cleric gear with 2 Berserker weapons while running traits in traitlines that don't synergize what so ever with themselves OR the stats/weapons they've got, I don't get angry or frustrated with the player. > > > > > > > > Why? Because the game doesn't teach anyone anything. Their only 'crime' is that they didn't spend tens or hundreds of hours doing freaking homework like GW2 was supposed to be a job or a college course. They don't understand anything because the game taught them nothing. > > > > > > > > And so there we are once again, explaining to someone that might've been here for months or even years that no, it isn't actually smart to try to have a little bit of Power and Condition Damage and Healing and Toughness because there is no such thing as 'good at everything, great at nothing' build that isn't utter garbage at everything except perhaps for WvW zerging or attrition weavers, and then you're running Celestial on specific builds which is another discussion entirely. > > > > > > > > I get mad at Anet because they fail completely, in every way possible, to enable players to excel at their game. > > > > > > > > It's not that they don't do enough; they don't do -anything-. They leave it all up to Joe Random Playerbase. > > > > > > > > Well, here we are, eight years deep into exploring that hypothesis. > > > > > > > > How are you liking all the compelling group content? Liking the new raids? All the new fractals suiting you? > > > > > > > > Oh. Wait. There's so little demand for that content that the fact we're getting a new fractal for the first time in forever is shocking and almost like the annual glance from Anet to see if demand for that kind of thing has somehow magically appeared in the field they refuse to do anything to tend. > > > > > > > > Maybe if they taught players how to play, players would be better at playing and, thus, there would be more players ...I dunno, maybe this is crazy...playing? You know, the advanced content? Insane, right? How do I even go from 'Teach players to play' to 'Players will play more content'? It's like I'm on drugs or something probably. > > > > > > > > ARCdps doesn't teach anyone how to play well. It doesn't teach people how to understand builds and synergies better, or at all. It can be used by those with the knowledge to make use of the data provided to guage the success of a build and rotations to make changes that will improve their performance, but without that knowledge, it's not useful to people that don't understand what the numbers mean or what affects them or how they are derived. > > > > > > > > It does you no good at all to see that 60% of your damage came from Burning if you don't even know what in your build, gear and rotations can help you do more burning damage, or to understand that your total damage is trash and that 60% of your trash damage being from burning is stupid because everything you picked for traits and utilities is all over the map and you're not actually using the right weapons for a condi build anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you can't figure out that having the information provided by arcdps is useful for improvement to absolutely any player who cares to utilize the information, I don't know what to tell you. Your argument is completely ridiculous all over. Also, what is the premise here? Only experts who already know everything and absolute beginners who have no frame of reference for the information provided by arcdps exist? Nobody inbetween that could use this? What are you even talking about, man? > > > > Of course everything I'm saying went whoosh. I should've expected it to. > > > > Enjoy your persistent lack of compelling group content and perpetual confusion about why more people don't care about it or want to get into it, I guess. > > I'm sorry. If your rather extensive thesis ranged beyond the discussion of arcdps, I wasn't paying attention. Having said that, I do agree that group content in this game is not particularly compelling, which is why I am mostly a solo open world/PvE player with forays into PvP and WvW roaming. Raids/strikes/fractals have never been a particular focus of mine. If it is your position that the game should have a dps meter built-in then again, I agree in principle. However, like I said, I don't trust ANet after what they did with build templates and I'd rather things stay just the way they are. > > Also, FWIW, I develop builds that make open world play easier for players to get into. With or without a dps meter, players require time to learn. Time they likely won't have to practice if they're dying so quickly and so frequently that they don't have time to learn anything! You do have to enjoy the gameplay first in order to truly learn and appreciate its depth, after all. I'm not a developer. I do what I can. I agree with everything you just said, where agreement is pertinent. I'm certainly not blaming you for the disturbing disparity of skill level between 'higher-end players' and pretty much everyone else. I'm blaming Anet for that, because they left it in the hands of the playerbase to discover it all, pass it all along and teach others. The problem with their intention, noble as it was, is that I think they dramatically failed to account for how players tend not to trust other players in the MMO space. GW2 has a great community at the higher end of gameplay. It's one of the very few MMO's in which the raid, pvp and wvw communities don't seem (at least to me, others' mileage may vary) to be particularly toxic and mean-spirited. I know quite a few hardcore 'do-everything' people and they're some of the most helpful, friendly and generally chill people I've ever known in any MMO. I see ARCdps as exactly the kind of thing Anet should be providing, and not only that, but a whole lot more. Can't fault you for your mistrust based on what you referenced. The implementation of build templates...yeah, I don't get it either. Maybe its the optimist in me, but I've always assumed they were somehow critically limited by the engine in some way on that. Great case for updating the engine if that's true, but I don't know a thing and maybe it was implemented badly because they just phoned it in, had an intern slap it together and don't really care. People like WoodenPotatoes, Kyosika and Cellofrag that have gone to tremendous lengths to build and support the community have done all they can too, and so have a lot of others. Players can never make up for what the devs don't do in a lot of ways though, and when it comes to getting into the high-end content on here, there are guilds that try really hard to make raid training fun and friendly. I'm in such a guild, and they tie themselves in knots trying to make sure nobody belittles or verbally abuses anyone, whether they're struggling to understand or panicking because too much is going on or not understanding something or just being dense. Its still not enough. ARCdps is great. There's nothing wrong with it, except for that it shouldn't have to exist in this way. Anet should be providing that kind of tool. And a lot of other tools. And training tutorials. And guides for explaining how even basic stat/trait building for the common roles goes. I'm not being critical of ARCdps. Its the best thing it can be, and its creators deserve nothing but praise for doing what they can to support the performance-seeking members of the community. It just shouldn't have to even exist and Anet should be ashamed of itself for making us rely on a data tool and the sporadic good will of other players to perform tolerably, nevermind well, in their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > @"ASP.8093" said: > > > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > > I really wish game devs would provide the tools that have been established as being standard and customary to support skill development in their games, but they always seem to think they're being magnanimous by leaving that up to the players. > > > > > > > > Exposing the hooks for third-party tools *is* doing their part, though. > > > > > > > > All you folks saying you want to see Arc replaced with an Anet-designed tool don't really see why a community-developed tool is better in this case. The development cycle is more responsive. People can contribute their own changes or fork it if they want to build an alternative. It serves its purpose quite well; any forced transition to a less polished or full-featured tool is going to be a net negative for months or years. > > > > > > My house is filthy. I'll just leave the door open so anyone that feels like it can come in and clean it if they want to. I will in no way even specifically encourage them to do so, but you know, if they do so, I probably won't ban them from the property. I'll keep that card up my sleeve just in case I'm feeling feisty one day instead. > > > > > > I'm doing my part to ensure that my home is a welcoming and pleasant place to be. > > > > ANet runs a business and partners with others to expand the options available to those choosing to partake of their product. Partnerships of this sort are not only commonplace but practically ubiquitous. I do not think that your analogy is particularly close to the situation being discussed. > > Cool. Cool cool. Lets do nothing, leave the door open and call the people that come to clean up our messes *partners*. > > My name is Tom Sawyer and I've got a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to become a master of fence-painting to let you in on. > > Brilliant solution, that. Absolves Anet from having to do anything at all to make the tools and provide the resources for people to get to play their game, and they'll give some headpats and kudos to the people that do their work for them. We'll just call them partners and smile thrillingly at them aaaaaaaaaaand... > > ...And after eight years its abundantly clear that this 'lets let the playerbase be solely responsible for teaching the playerbase how to play the game' model is a total wash, and every single complaint higher-tier players ever post, speak or whisper to themselves about how terrible it is that everyone's so bad at the game is proof. > > More proof? Every single complaint anyone's ever had about why high-end group content gets neglected for years and we almost never get anything new on that front. Why would we? There's so little demand for it because almost nobody can play the game well enough to want to play that stuff. > > If only there were some kind of solution to that. > > If only there were something the devs could do. > > An awful lot of BS in that post. Much of it either complete fabrication or in complete denial of the facts. Fact: ANet has NOT left the playerbase to be solely responsible for teaching the playerbase. I wont try to claim that their efforts have been successful (or a failure) but official efforts have been made. Fact: Claiming to know the thoughts of other players does not support your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > Maybe if they taught players how to play, players would be better at playing and, thus, there would be more players ...I dunno, maybe this is crazy...playing? You know, the advanced content? Insane, right? How do I even go from 'Teach players to play' to 'Players will play more content'? It's like I'm on drugs or something probably. Do you really think the players who need the teaching the most want it? Of course they don't. From the difficulty of HoT, to basic aggro ranges in the desert, there is a vast sea of players who beleive that a game should be nothing more than a barely interactive movie that lets them live out a power fantasy. Anything that interrupts this power fantasy isn't seen as challenge, but as developer incompetence. When confronted by any form of content they cannot be anonymously carried through they rebel with their playtime and their wallets. Add this to a business model that literally cannot hard gate player progress behind completion and you get what we have today. You can't force a player to get better with content in one episode, they can just abandon it and start up the next part. In addition to not being able to hard gate progress behind accomplishing certain basic actions you cannot even build on that player skill for the next episode. So not only are you offering a game with no gear treadmill, you can't even ramp difficulty behind learning, the lessons have to be skippable given the business model. The players that want to get better? will learn to dodge, do enough damage to not make trash mobs tedious, and find a decent build with some synergy. They might watch some videos, head to metabattle or grab Arcdps. The others will start forum threads about how the game is too difficult, scream in guild chat how the people who designed HoT need to be fired and leave for other games. The players you want Anet so badly to teach to get better do not want to learn. They will not rise to the challenge and learn, they will flood the feedback channels and get the content nerfed. Anet knows this. I'm kinda surprised you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1508 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 Well then Raids can stay niche and i'll avoid them i have for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrOtskY.5927 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > You don't need to pay 300g to use the golem, it's entirely free > > It is a reference to my mistake earlier in this thread. > When i create a squad to enter training area I get tagged automatically. > So i made an assumption that one needs a tag to get into training are. That appears to be wrong. > So i said "my bad". But this small mistake doesnt change anything in my posts :) > > Technically i dont know how can i enter training area without a com tag on me (when **no one else** in squad) You need to put the party into raid mode. Just create party > raid mode Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamyAbaddon.3265 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said: > > > @"AgentMoore.9453" said: > > > Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me. > > > > > > Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion. > > > > This right here. I agree with this. > > You can agree with it, but it is factually inaccurate. The data isn't yours. You might as well argue that you should be able to make your character invisible in PvE content so that players can't observe and judge you based on that. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent seem like a terrible idea to me as well. That data is mine because it's not something the game allows you to have access too without using said third party tool. You're NOT suppose to know this data which is why the game doesn't share it with you. It's like using a glasses to see through walls until to peak at someone's house to see what they are doing. It'd disrespecting one's own privacy. In this case, you're disrespecting the other player's privacy by looking into their data you should NOT have access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrOtskY.5927 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"Halbarz.3854" said: > > @"TrOtskY.5927" said: > > > @"Halbarz.3854" said: > > > I voted YES, as I do not believe a DPS meter is required to play any of the current content in the game and in its current form are not healthy for the game. > > > > > > I will say this: I would not mind it if I could only see my own damage and if it was built by Anet. This would still give people the option to use it and optimize their build if they cannot figure it out on their own. > > > > > > Anet should with this: Restrict the usage of it, to reflect only your own output! > > > Also the Poll is missing an option, No but should be restricted to personal output only > > > > > > > > > > Posts like this are really an example of total ignorance, and I really mean it, you don't know what you are talking about. > > > > This game has bosses that have very real DPS checks. You NEED damage to deal with this. > > > > Secondly, when running training groups of is extremely important for the leader to be able to pinpoint what is going wrong, and a DPS meter is the only way to know which of the DPS players are pulling their weight > > > > We can then help those with bad DPS with better builds and advice. > > > > If you want to play baby content then sure meters are not needed. > > > > I will never lead a training run without this tool. > > Um interesting approach "Posts like this are really an example of total ignorance" > > Is DPS important? Yes, of course, Have I denied that? No > Can you clear all content in the game without a DPS meter? Well, you seem to think it is not possible. :sweat_smile: You can CLEARLY see in a fight when the DPS is lackluster and that without a meter. Wouldn't you agree? > > If you would have read my whole post you might have noticed that I mentioned that a personal meter is a good middle ground. This still allows you to optimize your build. > > The whole "I will help people that do not have the required DPS", is something you might tell yourself (and maybe you do) but the majority of players will just kick and that's it. I would strongly advise people to stop using this as an argument, I have seen a lot of people bashing or kicking the DPS in Fractals even for the smallest difference. ... they were also helping I guess? > > So anyone claiming it is a must, or that they cannot complete content without it ... should ask themselves if the game is the problem or if they are. > DPS meters are a support tool by definition but in reality, they can impact the community if implemented incorrectly. Anet clearly just allowed it without thinking twice. > And now people like yourself are seeing it as a requirement - that is the problem. > > You are not even willing to consider the fact that it has a negative side or the potential for it. that is clear in your response. > As a training raid leader, you should be the number one person aware of the negatives when a meter is used in groups outside of "training" > > ****so Anet should create one if they want this in their game, they should put up some ground rules, and they should be the ones that say what is shared and what not. > Not some third party tool. If Anet controls it these discussions can be had and they can evaluate and take action to make it so everyone is happy. **** > > > > > > > > > > No. Stop trying to dig yourself out your hole, you don't know what you are talking about and you can't even follow the discussion or the points I made properly, or even more annoyingly taken the points I have made and came up with alternate scenarios that don't exist. You are wrong and I won't move on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said: > > > > @"AgentMoore.9453" said: > > > > Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me. > > > > > > > > Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion. > > > > > > This right here. I agree with this. > > > > You can agree with it, but it is factually inaccurate. The data isn't yours. You might as well argue that you should be able to make your character invisible in PvE content so that players can't observe and judge you based on that. > > I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent seem like a terrible idea to me as well. That data is mine because it's not something the game allows you to have access too without using said third party tool. You're NOT suppose to know this data which is why the game doesn't share it with you. It's like using a glasses to see through walls until to peak at someone's house to see what they are doing. It'd disrespecting one's own privacy. In this case, you're disrespecting the other player's privacy by looking into their data you should NOT have access to. I find your stance on privacy and ownership strange when at least two prominent content creators for this game have publicly stated you cribbed parts of their footage without asking first to make your S1 movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted September 4, 2020 Author Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said: > > > > @"AgentMoore.9453" said: > > > > Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me. > > > > > > > > Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion. > > > > > > This right here. I agree with this. > > > > You can agree with it, but it is factually inaccurate. The data isn't yours. You might as well argue that you should be able to make your character invisible in PvE content so that players can't observe and judge you based on that. > > I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent seem like a terrible idea to me as well. That data is mine because it's not something the game allows you to have access too without using said third party tool. You're NOT suppose to know this data which is why the game doesn't share it with you. It's like using a glasses to see through walls until to peak at someone's house to see what they are doing. It'd disrespecting one's own privacy. In this case, you're disrespecting the other player's privacy by looking into their data you should NOT have access to. You can figure this out by looking at health bar and combat log , none of data in combat is private otherwise it would be illegal for game to even say you dealt dmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron.6450 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > > @"naiasonod.9265" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're already skilled and knowledgable about builds, you got there by other routes completely and ARCdps won't actually be telling you much of anything you don't already know other than that this build throws out 35k burst and that build throws out 36.5k burst. You will already know why if you can build that in the first place, and IF YOU CANNOT? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ARCdps can't and won't help you with builds. ARCdps can't and won't help you understand how synergies across trait lines works, how fields and power interactions work or give even the faintest hint at why the numbers are what they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Data is only useful to those that know what it means and understand how it correlates to the actions that yielded it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a 100% useless tool for people that aren't already pretty expert in builds, building and knowing/understanding things. It will give experts data they can use to guide refinements of builds and rotations, and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're simply wrong. Using arcdps gives players their own metric for determining performance. I don't have to wonder whether I performed well or not. I can see the numbers and compare that to my usual performance in the same encounter. I can then change my build and use that same frame of reference for whether or not it's working. How is that not helpful for understanding builds and synergies? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're coming into the use of this tool with a great deal of foreknowledge about how your stats, skills and traitline synergies work however. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did you acquire that knowledge? You, like the rest of us with a high level of knowledge about such things, have probably spent hundreds of hours out of the game watching videos, reading guides, participating in theorycrafting discussions and trying out countless build arrays, and possibly spending/wasting hundreds of gold on, different gear sets to try to figure out what works, what looks like it should on paper but actually doesn't, what looks like it shouldn't on paper but weirdly does and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ARCdps is a valuable tool for the exact purpose I specified: experts refining and polishing builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an expert level of knowledge and understanding of how this game's systems work doesn't need ARCdps for jack diddly squat though. You'll be able to put a build together and feel out whether or not its putting out the DPS it should or if its not quite there a lot of the time through sheer, overwhelming experience with what it SHOULD feel like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having the data is how you go from 35k to 36.5k and work out how to pick up the improvements you couldn't feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ARCdps won't help you understand the game better though. ARCdps isn't even a tool the game itself references or provides. You won't even hear about it except from other players, and you have to go to third party sites and download it from third party servers to even get ahold of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The raiding guild I'm in does a lot of training and teaching. The officers try super hard to reach out to people, to get more people into doing ANYTHING more advanced than 'run around core Tyria spamming 1 and dodging only by accident'. They're great people and we all make great use of ARCdps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's tough to get new players to even download it about half the time. Most common complaint I've seen thus far is that they don't trust Github for whatever usually not-reasonable reason they have, but why should they HAVE to trust Github to play GW2 better? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why in all creation should ANY player have to go outside of the game to find the tools and resources that will enable them to play the game effectively? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is the game not providing these tools and resources internally and with all the power and integration only the devs could ever hope to provide? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, wrong. A new player isn't going to do 40k on a golem benchmark whether they use arcdps or not. But that doesn't mean that arcdps isn't useful to them. They will still be able to observe how changes to their build and strategy impact their performance. Further, the ability to see the breakdown for each skill allows them to easily tell where their damage is coming from. They don't necessarily need to have a deep understanding of the game's mechanics to tell that if 60% of their damage comes from burning, a trait/skill/etc. that improves burn damage would probably be helpful, for instance. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if you're deliberately being obtuse because it's too painful to admit that I've got a valid point or if you're legitimately incapable of reading, because you're not only addressing what I'm saying, but you're completely failing to acknowledge that nobody comes into this game knowing what the stats, traits and synergies are, mean or how they work at all. > > > > > > > > > > And there's nothing in the game that teaches players these things. > > > > > > > > > > You're clearly not new, and it seems to me that your problem is that you've known how these things work for so long that you're like a fish in the water; you're not even aware of the water anymore. You've taken it for granted that these things are 'just known' to you. > > > > > > > > > > So, I'll ask again; where in the game can I go to learn about Power coefficients as they relate to damage dealt against an armored target? > > > > > > > > > > Where IN. THE. GAME. can I go to be taught, by the game, how to build my class more effectively for any of the roles that might be expected of me in advanced content? > > > > > > > > > > Until ARCdps can make build suggestions and critique your damage log, its a tool that is most useful to the people that need it the least. The people that need help the most...well, it can't help them very much at all. > > > > > > > > > > How, after all, are they supposed to make any kind of informed or useful build choices when nothing in the game tells them anything about...anything, really? > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about you, but when I talk to someone that's got their stats all over the place and they really just don't understand why it was a terrible plan for them to try to run around having 2 pieces of Soldier, 2 pieces of Nomad and 2 pieces of Cleric gear with 2 Berserker weapons while running traits in traitlines that don't synergize what so ever with themselves OR the stats/weapons they've got, I don't get angry or frustrated with the player. > > > > > > > > > > Why? Because the game doesn't teach anyone anything. Their only 'crime' is that they didn't spend tens or hundreds of hours doing freaking homework like GW2 was supposed to be a job or a college course. They don't understand anything because the game taught them nothing. > > > > > > > > > > And so there we are once again, explaining to someone that might've been here for months or even years that no, it isn't actually smart to try to have a little bit of Power and Condition Damage and Healing and Toughness because there is no such thing as 'good at everything, great at nothing' build that isn't utter garbage at everything except perhaps for WvW zerging or attrition weavers, and then you're running Celestial on specific builds which is another discussion entirely. > > > > > > > > > > I get mad at Anet because they fail completely, in every way possible, to enable players to excel at their game. > > > > > > > > > > It's not that they don't do enough; they don't do -anything-. They leave it all up to Joe Random Playerbase. > > > > > > > > > > Well, here we are, eight years deep into exploring that hypothesis. > > > > > > > > > > How are you liking all the compelling group content? Liking the new raids? All the new fractals suiting you? > > > > > > > > > > Oh. Wait. There's so little demand for that content that the fact we're getting a new fractal for the first time in forever is shocking and almost like the annual glance from Anet to see if demand for that kind of thing has somehow magically appeared in the field they refuse to do anything to tend. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe if they taught players how to play, players would be better at playing and, thus, there would be more players ...I dunno, maybe this is crazy...playing? You know, the advanced content? Insane, right? How do I even go from 'Teach players to play' to 'Players will play more content'? It's like I'm on drugs or something probably. > > > > > > > > > > ARCdps doesn't teach anyone how to play well. It doesn't teach people how to understand builds and synergies better, or at all. It can be used by those with the knowledge to make use of the data provided to guage the success of a build and rotations to make changes that will improve their performance, but without that knowledge, it's not useful to people that don't understand what the numbers mean or what affects them or how they are derived. > > > > > > > > > > It does you no good at all to see that 60% of your damage came from Burning if you don't even know what in your build, gear and rotations can help you do more burning damage, or to understand that your total damage is trash and that 60% of your trash damage being from burning is stupid because everything you picked for traits and utilities is all over the map and you're not actually using the right weapons for a condi build anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you can't figure out that having the information provided by arcdps is useful for improvement to absolutely any player who cares to utilize the information, I don't know what to tell you. Your argument is completely ridiculous all over. Also, what is the premise here? Only experts who already know everything and absolute beginners who have no frame of reference for the information provided by arcdps exist? Nobody inbetween that could use this? What are you even talking about, man? > > > > > > Of course everything I'm saying went whoosh. I should've expected it to. > > > > > > Enjoy your persistent lack of compelling group content and perpetual confusion about why more people don't care about it or want to get into it, I guess. > > > > I'm sorry. If your rather extensive thesis ranged beyond the discussion of arcdps, I wasn't paying attention. Having said that, I do agree that group content in this game is not particularly compelling, which is why I am mostly a solo open world/PvE player with forays into PvP and WvW roaming. Raids/strikes/fractals have never been a particular focus of mine. If it is your position that the game should have a dps meter built-in then again, I agree in principle. However, like I said, I don't trust ANet after what they did with build templates and I'd rather things stay just the way they are. > > > > Also, FWIW, I develop builds that make open world play easier for players to get into. With or without a dps meter, players require time to learn. Time they likely won't have to practice if they're dying so quickly and so frequently that they don't have time to learn anything! You do have to enjoy the gameplay first in order to truly learn and appreciate its depth, after all. I'm not a developer. I do what I can. > > I agree with everything you just said, where agreement is pertinent. I'm certainly not blaming you for the disturbing disparity of skill level between 'higher-end players' and pretty much everyone else. I'm blaming Anet for that, because they left it in the hands of the playerbase to discover it all, pass it all along and teach others. The problem with their intention, noble as it was, is that I think they dramatically failed to account for how players tend not to trust other players in the MMO space. > > GW2 has a great community at the higher end of gameplay. It's one of the very few MMO's in which the raid, pvp and wvw communities don't seem (at least to me, others' mileage may vary) to be particularly toxic and mean-spirited. I know quite a few hardcore 'do-everything' people and they're some of the most helpful, friendly and generally chill people I've ever known in any MMO. > > I see ARCdps as exactly the kind of thing Anet should be providing, and not only that, but a whole lot more. Can't fault you for your mistrust based on what you referenced. The implementation of build templates...yeah, I don't get it either. Maybe its the optimist in me, but I've always assumed they were somehow critically limited by the engine in some way on that. > > Great case for updating the engine if that's true, but I don't know a thing and maybe it was implemented badly because they just phoned it in, had an intern slap it together and don't really care. > > People like WoodenPotatoes, Kyosika and Cellofrag that have gone to tremendous lengths to build and support the community have done all they can too, and so have a lot of others. Players can never make up for what the devs don't do in a lot of ways though, and when it comes to getting into the high-end content on here, there are guilds that try really hard to make raid training fun and friendly. I'm in such a guild, and they tie themselves in knots trying to make sure nobody belittles or verbally abuses anyone, whether they're struggling to understand or panicking because too much is going on or not understanding something or just being dense. > > Its still not enough. > > ARCdps is great. There's nothing wrong with it, except for that it shouldn't have to exist in this way. > > Anet should be providing that kind of tool. And a lot of other tools. And training tutorials. And guides for explaining how even basic stat/trait building for the common roles goes. > > I'm not being critical of ARCdps. Its the best thing it can be, and its creators deserve nothing but praise for doing what they can to support the performance-seeking members of the community. > > It just shouldn't have to even exist and Anet should be ashamed of itself for making us rely on a data tool and the sporadic good will of other players to perform tolerably, nevermind well, in their game. Dude I understand where you're coming from. I used to feel the same way about how players are let down in how the game is explained to them, and that if anet did a better job with tutorials early on a lot of player skill issues would be resolved. But it's just not true. I've spent most of the last year on a break from gw2 and have been playing ff14. Compared to gw2, that game does a fantastic job of teaching people how to play, and combat systems are much simpler. Skills are drip fed slowly, and gradually build up combos and rotations with only small modifications at any given point. Every class has to complete class-specific quests that in most cases force you to learn how to use skills, there are no stat options on gear (so you can't pick bad stats at all), and the next button to press in your rotation (for many classes) literally lights up after you press the one before it. And in my experience of the two games, roughly the same proportion of people I run into perform terribly. All that extra hand holding in ff amounts to nothing. So while I get what you're suggesting, it's just not the case that anet making better tutorials will fix things. I don't think it will make it worse, but it's not going to make things much better either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"Dante.1508" said: > Yes There should be no mods in an mmorpg.. its opens far to many cans of worms and very few mmo's even allow these things without being banned.. Very poor on Anets behalf to allow these hacks. But they are not hacks, they don't change the code whatsoever > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general. > > > > > > If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are. > > > > What about mods who don't mess with the code, just screencap for example? > > > > None at all, you allow one you need to allow all... So no nothing, nada, zilch. Thats not how rules work though, thats like saying well if we allow people to drive 30 km/h you allow them to ride 500km/h. So we should not allow cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katary.7096 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"AgentMoore.9453" said: > Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, [...] Just a few posts prior to your post another poster linked a statement from the former Game Security Lead for guild wars 2, stating that combat data is not private information, therefore arcdps is not sharing their data with anyone. Is the expectation that people read the thread they are going to post in really so unreasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 Absolutely, along with other third party tools. It's a game. Play and enjoy or don't. You don't see people demanding to have absolute best players in their team in sports or they won't play. That's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said: > > > > @"AgentMoore.9453" said: > > > > Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me. > > > > > > > > Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion. > > > > > > This right here. I agree with this. > > > > You can agree with it, but it is factually inaccurate. The data isn't yours. You might as well argue that you should be able to make your character invisible in PvE content so that players can't observe and judge you based on that. > > I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent seem like a terrible idea to me as well. That data is mine because it's not something the game allows you to have access too without using said third party tool. You're NOT suppose to know this data which is why the game doesn't share it with you. It's like using a glasses to see through walls until to peak at someone's house to see what they are doing. It'd disrespecting one's own privacy. In this case, you're disrespecting the other player's privacy by looking into their data you should NOT have access to. Your analogy is bad because it assumes some inherent privacy. Problem with this is a) by definition the data is public and not yours and b) you already have access to it but you just can't make sense of it. It's been clarified before. Combat data is completely public. It's like an author kicking up a fuss because people are reading a book they pick up from a library that the author published by using classes to help them read. Saying you're not supposed to have something is a bit weird when by definition they already poses what you are saying they shouldn't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nthmetal.9652 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 IMO DPS meters are necessary, as the game itself provides poor feedback, especially when you're not doing damage. If you do damage at least you can look happily at "big numbers" popping up. If that's useful, or not, is a different matter, but at least you receive feedback about thhe actions and quality of your actions in a certain way. If you are doing support you can monitor the boons, but even here things get hard: Boons are not featured prominently in the UI, and what makes things worse is, that the buffs do not have a fixed position. Good lucky tracking that consistently without the help of additional tools. If you are providing disruption support in forms of CC and strips, things get even more shifty. There is no feedback for strips at all (except for the one target you have selected, where you can see boons disappearing, but how does that help with area effects?), and feedback for interrupts is inconsistent at best. Wanting feedback is not only important for the psychological effect - it does feel nice to know what you're doing is right - it is also necessary to learn how to improve. Now as to the demand that DPS meters should only track personal stats: That is a bad workaround. In the end guild leaders will still demand numbers for comparison, and if you fake it, over time it will be discovered (simply by comparing performance, videos, and analyzing what can obviously be seen). It also means you can't evaluate your own relative performance. And if you want to improve, that is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinful Mustache.3589 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 This pointless conversation seems to never end. Why pointless? Because the "arcdps is evil" adepts 1. Have no clue what they are talking about in general 2. They dont know any basics about combat data availability and privacy 3. They dont know any basics about what is a "hack" and why arcdps is NOT a hack 4. They dont know Anet approved arcdps 5. They dont know the history of toxicity and the actual impact of arcdps on the toxicity level 6. They dont listen to any objective reasons posted in this thread many times 7. Worst of all, **they dont want to learn** anything beyond their ridiculous picture of world Being a noob is okay, telling complete nonsense is okay while one is a noob. Noobs can learn and one day stop being noobs. What is NOT okay is being completely ignorant noob who doesnt want to learn anything. This is almost disgusting and makes me wanna say - bois, let them go and live in their imagination. They cant be saved by your educational efforts. They dont want to be saved from dark and deep noobness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > Absolutely, along with other third party tools. It's a game. Play and enjoy or don't. You don't see people demanding to have absolute best players in their team in sports or they won't play. That's ridiculous. Your point is simply wrong. Look at any competitive sport; only the best players get picked for the team and sometimes that varies from match to match. I'm referring to the NBA/Football/Ashes (cricket, in case you didn't know)/Athletics/Tour de France the list goes on. If on the other hand you're basing your statement on sunday morning 5-a-sides before heading to the pub, then yeah, pretty much anyone who has a bit of skill and is available will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"Funky.4861" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > Absolutely, along with other third party tools. It's a game. Play and enjoy or don't. You don't see people demanding to have absolute best players in their team in sports or they won't play. That's ridiculous. > > Your point is simply wrong. Look at any competitive sport; only the best players get picked for the team and sometimes that varies from match to match. I'm referring to the NBA/Football/Ashes (cricket, in case you didn't know)/Athletics/Tour de France the list goes on. If on the other hand you're basing your statement on sunday morning 5-a-sides before heading to the pub, then yeah, pretty much anyone who has a bit of skill and is available will do. Comparing professional sport where people getting payed to a game which people play for fun? Really dude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > Absolutely, along with other third party tools. It's a game. Play and enjoy or don't. You don't see people demanding to have absolute best players in their team in sports or they won't play. That's ridiculous. > > > > Your point is simply wrong. Look at any competitive sport; only the best players get picked for the team and sometimes that varies from match to match. I'm referring to the NBA/Football/Ashes (cricket, in case you didn't know)/Athletics/Tour de France the list goes on. If on the other hand you're basing your statement on sunday morning 5-a-sides before heading to the pub, then yeah, pretty much anyone who has a bit of skill and is available will do. > > Comparing professional sport where people getting payed to a game which people play for fun? Really dude? Yes some people play at a level that would get paid if it was any other sport and have fun with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > > Absolutely, along with other third party tools. It's a game. Play and enjoy or don't. You don't see people demanding to have absolute best players in their team in sports or they won't play. That's ridiculous. > > > > > > Your point is simply wrong. Look at any competitive sport; only the best players get picked for the team and sometimes that varies from match to match. I'm referring to the NBA/Football/Ashes (cricket, in case you didn't know)/Athletics/Tour de France the list goes on. If on the other hand you're basing your statement on sunday morning 5-a-sides before heading to the pub, then yeah, pretty much anyone who has a bit of skill and is available will do. > > > > Comparing professional sport where people getting payed to a game which people play for fun? Really dude? > > Yes some people play at a level that would get paid if it was any other sport and have fun with that. Because some people play at competitive level, you think it's reasonable to compare a sport where people get payed to do it, it's their job, their career and their success, fame and wealth is directly affected by their performance, to a video game? Don't be silly. Only thing you could call competitive in gw2 is pvp and that surely doesn't need dps meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 The analogy i gave was a comparison of OW/wvw/ starter-level pvp to raids, fractals and pvp leagues. If you're not pulling your weight (ie: fulfilling your role) and everyone can see it but you, why should your team carry you through encounter after encounter, match after match? Nobody cares if you're running around OW in mismatched rares with an incoherent build, or if you do the same when roaming, flipping camps, taking sentries in wvw. It's when you try to bring that into organised, timed play with other people that it falls down. Also, people make careers out of playing video games; even if it is for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > Comparing professional sport where people getting payed to a game which people play for fun? Really dude? You know, MMORPGs are usually like a 2nd job in a sense. Just take a look at Eve Online. It's basically a spreadsheet simulator. For GW2, most guilds that do their own events (pve training guilds, pvp guilds, wvw guilds etc) all use some kind of application form to make it easier to organize an event. I know of guilds (mine included) that made custom software to aid them with stuff like that. Some guilds literally ask for a "in game CV" before accepting you to the guild. That's just how we have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > Comparing professional sport where people getting payed to a game which people play for fun? Really dude? > > You know, MMORPGs are usually like a 2nd job in a sense. Just take a look at Eve Online. It's basically a spreadsheet simulator. > > For GW2, most guilds that do their own events (pve training guilds, pvp guilds, wvw guilds etc) all use some kind of application form to make it easier to organize an event. > I know of guilds (mine included) that made custom software to aid them with stuff like that. > > Some guilds literally ask for a "in game CV" before accepting you to the guild. > > That's just how we have fun. Having an application qualifies as second job for you? Being organized to make events easier for everyone and more enjoyable or trying to filter out people that don't fit into the guild via application forms, doesn't mean they take things so seriously as to police others and tell them how to play the game. Also comparing Eve to gw2 is completely facepalm worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > Having an application qualifies as second job for you? Being organized to make events easier for everyone and more enjoyable or trying to filter out people that don't fit into the guild via application forms, Exactly, "trying to filter out people that don't fit". > doesn't mean they take things so seriously as to police others and tell them how to play the game. Who cares about toxic pugs? Ban arcdps and they will use something different. I am thankful to arcdps because I can play reaper and still have definite proof of I'm pulling my weight. > Also comparing Eve to gw2 is completely facepalm worthy. I agree, I was talking about MMORPGs in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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